A Letter to the Narcissist – No. 103

MM´S LETTER

 

Dear Dad,
As I think back recalling my childhood, the sounds and sights are not that of a typical home or upbringing.
You were an in intimidating beast, at a height of 6;4 and you were pure muscle weighing in around 280lbs. You had platnum blonde hair, and crystal clear blue eyes.  Those eyes made women swoon, and made me shudder with fear.
When you came into our life we had been on the run from a motorcycle gang mom had involved herself with.  We had contracts on our head.  I was relieved to have a bed again, after so many nights sleeping in the car, and moving from place to place always looking over our shoulder.
We were both thankful for you.  You love bombed us both in the early months.  I thought you could do anything. You were my hero. I remember sitting in your lap and asking, “will you be my daddy?” you smiled convincingly, and said ‘There is nothing that would make me happier.” I wrapped my tiny arms around your neck, happy that I had found my forever family, and my happiliy ever after.
Until you shattered that dream one day. I had been instructed to purchase you cigarrettes from the convenient store 3 blocks from our home.  I was five years old.  I did not deviate from the path, but I did walk slowly humming and singing to myself happy and content in my world.
When I opened the front door upon returning you grabbed me by my hair and dragged me to my bedroom.You instructed me to bend over the bed.  I did so as I cried and asked, “What did I do daddy?”
You swung down on me with that belt, God you swung down on me so many times.  You did not spank me. You beat me from head to toe.  The beating was so severe, my little body lost control and I urinated all over myself.  When you were done you said, “your mother has broke down and has been waiting because you were out fucking off!” you turned and left the room to go get my mother.
I slowly got up from the ground  where I had collapsed, and you had left me in a bloody urine-soaked heap.  I gingerly made my way to the bathroom and peeled my clothes off of my injured tiny frame.  I was shocked when I saw what you had done.  I had open lacerations all over.  I had even more disturbing deep bruising that one could visibly see blood pulling under the skin.  A hematoma I believe by definitoin, but the word does not give it enough weight when seeing it in the mind´s eye.
I cried softly, as I washed my body gently removing the blood and urine.  I dressed slowly as I heard the front door and my mother talking to you.  She called out for me as she did every day wishing to say hello.
I walked out of the bathroom  walking stiffly so my clothes did not rub on my wounds. Mom looked down at me with a confused grimace. “What’s wrong baby?”
I glanced at you.  You did not look at me, but I knew instinctively it best to not out you now.
“Nothing mommy.” I said as I looked back to my mother.
“I am sorry you had to wait on me while I was at the store”
Mom patted my head and smiled, “it’s not your fault baby. There is no way you could know I had broke down.”
Later that evening when I had a moment alone with my mother, I showed her my injuries. She gasped,, pondered for a moment, and said “Well baby, you should have been faster.”
I learned in that moment, that she would never help me. I know now it´s because you had twisted her mind with your narcissistic thinking.  You had long before poisoned her against me.  You had told her that I would  make up things, and say I was abused for attention.  You pointed out kids on television and the news as examples and warned what I would turn into withoutu proper discipline.
Going forward you never wore the mask for me again.  I did not see kindness from you ever again.  The rule was, if I had to be seen, then I should not be heard.  You preferred I not be seen, or simply not exist.  Beatings were common place to the point I considered killing you in your sleep to make it stop.  Thankfully, something inside me that is good remained untouched by you.
I, in your mind, was an extension of you.  Therefore, I must be perfect.  I got up everyday to go through a 3 hour process to get ready for the day.  My hair, makeup and clothes all had to be perfect. Anything out of placed would be punished swiftly.
My grades were to be A’s and nothing less than that. If I recieved a B, I would get a warning and grounded until the next report card was issued.  If I recieved a C, a beating, and grounding.  The grounding entailed I be in my room with no television, radio, or phone.  I could read.  This was the only acceptable activity. I was allowed to come out of my room to eat meals, and go to school.
Anything I competed in, I must be 1st place.  If I was not how would you brag and show how superior you were to your friends.  Second place was severely punished.  I recall my coaches in my acitvities being very confused by my reaction to a lesser placement.  I could not tell them.  I could tell no one what was happening.  You had made clear if I did, you would kill me.  I believe you might have.
You made me believe that I was just looking for attention if I tried to tell my mother anything. You made me believe that I was lazy, useless, worthless and stupid.
You began making passes at me by age 15.  You were drinking heavily in those days. I raised my fists to fight back, and it feels like I have never stopped fighting since.
You quit bothering me very much once I started to fight back.  You beat me every time, but I became more of a hassle than I was worth.  By this time, I was an angry young woman.  I was lashing out at everything and everyone I could.  Getting into fights was common.  I was feared.  I liked that feeling and it scared me. I liked that feeling because you controlled every part of my life, but not this.  I could control thru fear just as you had me. I was at risk for becoming you
One day I attacked a girl for a rumour she had spread about me.  I lost my mind.  I saw red. I recall the sounds she made as my fists made contact.  She did not fight back. I recall her eyes looking at me in terror, and her hands raised to fend me off, and the grunts of pain as I landed blows.  My boyfriend pulled me off of her.  I sat and cried for hours. I vowed never, ever to do that again.  I refuse to be you!
I have never  done that again.  You did not win. I am not you. I do not try to intimidate, I do not hurt people for no reason, I do not try to make people feel bad about themselves. I love with a heart that has a capacity that can not be measured.  I give freely and generously out of that love. I am known for my compassion and empathy.  I believe in fighting for the weak, the old, the sick, the broken, and the under dog. The only time i lift my fists today, are for those reasons alone.  My children, have never known the lash of the belt once in their entire lives, and thank god they never will.  You never got to shape who they would become, and harm them in any way.  I made sure of that.
You died alone.  What more should one say in your eulogy?
May God have mercy on you.
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106 Comments

  1. Dearest HG: It seems to me that you are being` badgered` by the latent and often tough complication of a loaded assumption or question? I looked into this and found this info on Wikipedia regarding loaded questions, etc.:
    From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

    A loaded question or complex question is a question that contains a controversial or unjustified assumption (e.g., a presumption of guilt).[1]
    Aside from being an informal fallacy depending on usage, such questions may be used as a rhetorical tool: the question attempts to limit direct replies to be those that serve the questioner’s agenda.[2] The traditional example is the question “Have you stopped beating your wife?” Whether the respondent answers yes or no, he will admit to having a wife and having beaten her at some time in the past. Thus, these facts are presupposed by the question, and in this case an entrapment, because it narrows the respondent to a single answer, and the fallacy of many questions has been committed.[2] The fallacy relies upon context for its effect: the fact that a question presupposes something does not in itself make the question fallacious. Only when some of these presuppositions are not necessarily agreed to by the person who is asked the question does the argument containing them become fallacious.[2] Hence the same question may be loaded in one context, but not in the other. For example, the previous question would not be loaded if it were asked during a trial in which the defendant had already admitted to beating his wife.[2]
    This fallacy should be distinguished from that of begging the question,[3] which offers a premise whose plausibility depends on the truth of the proposition asked about, and which is often an implicit restatement of the proposition.[4]

    Defense[edit]
    A common way out of this argument is not to answer the question (e.g. with a simple ‘yes’ or ‘no’), but to challenge the assumption behind the question. To use an earlier example, a good response to the question “Have you stopped beating your wife?” would be “I have never beaten my wife”.[5] This removes the ambiguity of the expected response, therefore nullifying the tactic. However, the asker is likely to respond by accusing the one who answers of dodging the question.` `One of the toughest and most common is the infamous loaded question, “When did you stop beating your wife?” which implies that you have indeed been beating your wife. … This is known as a false assumption and there is only one way to handle such a question: Just apply the noted anti-drug slogan, and say, “No.”Jul 27, 2009` ~~Google. HG, it seems to me that the more a `loaded question` is addressed, the more damage is done, even by those that try to assist the person at the end of a loaded question, and unproved assumption. If someone tries this on me, I will shut it down immediately, and say, asked and answered, if possible, from what I am observing. Wow.

    1. PSE

      I’d be interested to hear what damage you think has been done?

      I disagree with your assessment that Empath 007s question was loaded in the sense you define it – it was based on logic, the kind of logic HG teaches to observe here (not to mention that she wrote it in a situation of severe personal distress to do with child abuse.)

      All narcissists lie to serve their own goals. Not everything a narcissist says however, is a lie.

      All narcissists who care for their children daily abuse their children (in various ways and degrees of severity, depending on the type of narcissist and their specific fuel matrix).

      HG is a narcissist.

      Therefore we have a logical problem – one that, in the absence of evidence and the possibility to know who the person behind HG really is – can only be solved with trust or mistrust.

      We must trust that he doesn’t care for a child and that he himself rejects child abuse.

      Empath 007 chooses not to trust him (right now) and if you read her last comment, that she didn’t introduce her children to her narc because he showed disrespect towards her (and thus protected her children in a very capable and maternal way) then I am impressed with this not least because I myself am and have been too trusting too soon.

      As for HG himself, the discussion could serve for him to bolster trust or mistrust on the part of his readers. My take on this is that the site itself provides plenty of evidence that its creator abhors child abuse. Even if he won’t use the word ‘abhor’ so as to not compromise the notion that he cannot empathise emotionally.

      The discussion here had people such as K who did her magic act of pulling up links with the kind of evidence I mean.

      So in total, where is the damage you see? In my eyes there’s gain in the way he answered and the ways he allowed the discussion to unfold because I hadn’t seen all this so clearly before.

  2. Empath007
    Please don’t beat yourself up over feeling like that re comment to HG .
    It is a heartbreaking letter I admitted I would have murdered the man if it was my child .
    HG is on a totally different level to this disgusting coward.
    Yes he is a greater but I just sense in my heart and soul he is light years above this type of sick behaviour.I actually feel HG is not violent at all , it’s a lesser thug like trait of sheer cowards .

    I could imagine HG killing a coward who would do this though and I would approve .

    Kiki

    1. Kiki: We all have violent tendencies. Children have to be taught not to strike and hit and kick and break and burn things up, whenever they feel angry. We are socialized to restrain our violent tendencies and to be moderate in our behavior. Women are socialized even more so to not be violent, and to ignore, and turn our eyes, and to tip-toe away from violent scenarios. Especially if becoming involved means they will lose their financial stability and they have no means to support themselves within their various societies. And even growing up, women have less outlets to act out their violence, in many ways, such as sports and the martial arts and the military and dance, and other strenuous activities. So women go into denial and even depression more than men to escape the violence. Some have so much guilt that they believe they deserve the violence, as well. Many women have given up on life, because of their past circumstances, and are just going through the motions of living. And women are not always good and society does its utmost to hide this fact. Outsiders, including the law, are also often reluctant to interfere with what goes on in the family, and social services in actuality have unsubstantial resources set aside for the costliness of assisting one to move and start a new life.

      1. Yes PSE I understand, it’s easier to look in on a situation and say why the mother didn’t do anything.
        Maybe it’s just me but a situation like that would bring out any inate violence in me.
        I can understand maybe two drunk people having a fight or a school yard scuffle but a grown man physically abusing a child that is not normal in any way .
        It is about power and control .
        Two men or women or whatever having a physical fight is ugly to witness but harming a defenceless child is just beyond comprehension for me .Its the act of a sadistic coward

        Kiki❤️

        1. Kiki: Men can be bad. Women can be bad. Some children are living monsters as well. Yes, I said it. Society hides this fact, even when the parents bring this up to mental practitioners, over and over. The parents are often hushed away along with the child, and are told the child will outgrow the stage, even when this is not the case. Some children lie and say they were `touched` etc., when it is not the case. Many people believe that children and teenagers will not lie. That is not true. Even teenagers can be bad. Parents tell the authorities that their unstable teen has obtained an AK type weapon,etc. and is visiting bad websites, etc. and nothing is done by the authorities until the teen perpetuates a mass shooting. True Stories. I am not saying any of this is the case here with this particular letter, of course. I am saying the problem is huge. And, so much goes on within the walls of a family. Mothers are not always loving, children are not always good, as well. Family members are often in denial. Of course, men are often seen as the villian, and many times they are, but a lot of trauma goes on in the family unit., by many parties, and at all levels and incomes. Many are involved. And society loves to keep all this hushed up. Especially in countries that are supposed to be shining examples of societal behaviour to the `undeveloped` world. I have no answer on how society can stop all this. I see practically nothing that all of these professional social workers and mental practitioners are doing to increase awareness. And, for now, society largely does not even want to say all these violations exists. They toss out a news story here and there, and a horror movie now and then, and that is about it. And, so it continues….

          1. I agree. I quickly keyed in to a child that is being dishonest or claiming abuse that is not abuse. it makes me very upset. I have said some heated things before. There are kids that think grounding them is abuse, or taking their phone, or a swat on the behind. They don’t know true abuse. I was so miserable I got up one night and got a knife from the kitchen. i got to his doorway, and stopped. I am not that person. I knew it then. So instead everytime he demanded an ice tea, i spit in it before giving it to him. gross I know but its true. i don’t know what the answer is. I know our system is weighed down and kids fall thru every day.
            m

      2. Princess Super Empath,
        This is the second time I have read thru your comment, and I felt like you looked into my life and saw me. I felt like you described me to a T. Where I am at in my life and how I feel. I feel lost and sometimes think to give up. It is here I have found strength to keep going. It is hear Hg, has shook me so to speak and said listen up! If you want out do what I say! He, and you and the others have been my light at the end of the tunnel. I struggle, but that is the point. I am still fighting and trying to get thru it some how. Everything you wrote in this comment is true for me. Some days I do think i must deserve it. I often feel i am just going thru the motions, receding into the shadows until I disappear. I went thru what I did so some one else does not have. That is the one thought that gets me thru. Thank you for seeing who i am and others like me. that we are fighting even if it looks like we are not. some of us have few options available to us. Thank you for being you.
        M

    2. KiKi,
      I like to think HG would kill someone like that too. How he feels if anything I don’t know. I know that HG holds a special place for me. In my mind he is saving my life.
      M.

  3. I am so sorry for what you went through at such a young age and beyond. What a disgusting human being. In some ways I can relate to the betrayal you must have felt when your own mother looked the other way. Although, my situation in childhood was not nearly as horrific. I too had to call him “Dad” which, to this day, makes me ill. Hopefully yours has a seat next to mine, burning in the depths of Hell.

    You are a very strong woman to have risen above this and taken a path of compassion and empathy. You chose to raise your children in a different way, after it was all you had known in your young life. Keep fighting for the good!

  4. Hi MM
    I have not commented on any of the letters this time around but I need to make an exception with yours. The days of sending a 5 year old to the store for cigarettes is long gone so I assume this was many years ago and you are a mature woman. You make no mention of your mother’s death. A couple of questions if you don’t mind answering:

    Did your mother leave him or were they together until his death?
    Are you still in contact with your mother and what is your relationship with her?
    Did you have siblings and were they treated similarly?

    If you do not wish to answer I understand. I’m sorry that you experienced that as your childhood and thank you for sharing your story.

    1. NarcAngel,
      My mother remained with my stepfather until he was caught in one of his many affairs, but this one had gone on for 7 years. She left then but married an even more evil man believe it or not. I was grown by this time. She died back in November. I understand now I think that she was sick too. She was diagnosed bi polar and border line personality disorder. Which I worry I may have as a result of all this. I don’t really know the symptoms to be honest. I do know on the bi polar and i have been checked and told no I do not. border line, i don’t know what that is completely. She was not with dad when he died. he died alone. no siblings. i have half blood siblings but I do not know them very well. Dad had two of his own kids from a previous marriage that came over every other weekend. I was treated like the servant, and less than both of them. yes I am in my early 40’s now. so yes that was some time ago now.

      1. Hi Oracle
        Thank you for responding. Your letter resonated with me because I also had a sadistic Lesser stepfather (letter #15) and my mother lived apart from him eventually but stayed involved with him until his death. What really stands out for me is that your mother eventually left him over an affair and not because of his treatment of you. I think that speaks volumes. I also wondered how it affected your relationships with other family members and specifically her. My remaining “family” is quite fractured. I’m truly sorry that was your childhood and hope you know both in your heart and mind that none of it was your fault. You were not in control (no one really was). You did nothing wrong. You were a little girl who deserved to be loved but were bound to people who were incapable of it and that is no reflection on you at all. Let all of their sickness and neglect be gone with them never to touch your life again. Live fully and in peace MM.

        1. NarcAngel, Yes, this has been a difficult thing for me to accept all my life in regards to my mother. My mother was good at making appear she had no control or choice, but in fact she did. i agree it speaks volumes that she left over the what she did, but would not over the abuse. the last time we fought I was pregnate with my 1st child. We were arguing and he told me he was going to knock me out, and stupidely I said, “bring it on fucker” I was 17. He brought it all right. he jumped up quick as lightening and hurled into me. I pulled my legs up to protect the baby, and we both went flipping over the couch i was on back wards.mom pulled him off of me but the force had slammed the baby into my bladder and i peed on myself. seems i peed alot around this man. I am not trying to be funny. it was true. Anyway we left that night but him being a cop he found us quickly. we came home and he asked to speak to me privately. he told me if i ever got between them again he would kill me. I believe him. I am sorry you knew this same upbringing. Are your parents still living? what of your mother? my family no, i have no family now that mom is gone. when i was growing up there were members of the family that attempted to protect me but as an adult and with the help of her new narc i was the family skapegoat. so no family remains.

  5. MM You are amazing! Your strength to not follow the same path with your own children and to nurture rather than beat resonates immensely with me. This letter, this story, this woman… your inner strength – light – survival instincts protected you. You did not deserve any of it, it was not your fault. This letter is heart-breaking but also full of courage and hope. I hope your life now MM is everything you wished it would be, much love to you.

    1. I had 4 babies. One took his life 4 years ago. The other three seem to be well rounded and happy. I have just welcomed my 1st grandchild. I have amazing kids. I got lucky.

  6. MM
    Darling girl!
    Precious little lamb!
    Brave little lamb!
    I’ve had tears of outrage for your torture.
    Your terror.
    Such gross violation of your human rights.

    I want to rip the front door off its hinges to rescue you, and take a flame thrower to the perpetrator.
    Tasering isn’t satisfying enough.

    I want to hold you and comfort you, brave little lamb.
    I know what it is to be abandoned to the N, the other parent twisted up in the toxic dynamic.

    My phone screen is bathed in tears for you.

    Brave little lamb.
    Darling girl.
    Woman of great courage and resilience.

    1. CAroline,
      My mother’s best friend tried to save me I later learned as an adult. Dad was a police officer. No one would listen to her or me. He told her if she interfered again, I would suffer for it.
      m

  7. Is MM still here on the blog?

    Your story was heartbreaking, and it was also liberating. I see you have taken your atrocities and turned them into good. I am glad he didn’t get any chance to have interaction with your children. Thank you for sharing your story ❤

  8. Wow. I don’t even know what to say – heartbreaking. What strength some people(you) have is amazing.
    Peace.

  9. This was incredibly painful to read. I could hardly get through the whole letter. I wish I could hold you as a child and protect you. I am so sorry for the failings of your awful parents.

  10. Sadly I can relate. Thank you for being so brave and sharing your story. This was a hard read. My heart goes out to you MM.

  11. I’m angry at the mother for allowing her boyfriend to beat her 5 year old like that.
    I am glad she turned into a fighter for justice. She turned out a better member of society, than most cowards that live today.

  12. MM, the intensity of the abuse you have endured is monumental. To have that fear and nervous energy constantly in your body as such a young child must’ve been intolerable. There is no greater inhumanity in the world than hurting and berating a child. Your mother’s passive acceptance of the abuse perpetrated by your step father is tantamount to cooperation with it. I am so deeply sorry for the story she was telling herself about his behaviour and her failure to act protectively and end this abuse.

    It is ironic that even today, most programs designed to stop child abuse are directed at children. We are asking children to do the one thing that most adults won’t – report it. Children must learn protective behaviours and disclosure skills, however it is adults, not children who are responsible for the health, safety and wellbeing of kids.

    MM, I am so grateful for your strength and fortitude. To have a heart full of love and compassion in spite of the role you were cast in as a young child, fills me with inspiration and hope for others also. Thank you for sharing your deeply personal and life-changing story with us. It has brought me to a place of heartfelt reflection and appreciation for the strength of humanity.

    You are inspirational!

    1. Sarah
      Correct; the adults often don’t report abuse so the children have to self-advocate. It’s a travesty of justice.

      1. Yes, it is very true. I actually read your response K and thought of replying with a comment like, “I echo K’s sentiments completely” as it really resonated with me. Due to the nature of the letter I wrote an independent response, but yours was precious.

        1. Thank you Sarah
          Your comment was very good as well. You recognized that MM’s mother was just as guilty of child abuse as the father was and you made an excellent point regarding how children have to self-report abuse because their parents fail to protect them. It’s heartbreaking and unfathomable.

    2. Yes, that is something people don’t understand about growing up like that. I was on constant alert and guard. The flight or flight was a constant. As a result, I always know where all exits are, I am always waiting to be struck. I am always on guard expecting attack. Yes it is sad that we aim at our kids to report. I was so confused. I didn’t understand why he was hurting me and doing what he was doing. I loved him. I could not understand it. Mom, I am still coming to terms with. how she in so many abandoned me a long time ago.Thank you for being so supportive. it means alot today. I have taken some hard hits today and struggling to stand. so thank you.
      m.

  13. Omg this is full blown savagery and the behaviour of a sadistic twisted fuck.
    He should have been put out of his misery with a bullet between the eyes .I know it sounds sick but
    If it was my child I would have been very tempted to do that to protect my baby.
    I would have no remorse.

    Kiki

  14. You were only 5 and he gave you a beating like that? Hopefully since you broke free of that non-human you give your inner child unlimited freedom to lollygag and play and enjoy the scenery and dawdle to her sweet heart’s content. You are amazing to have survived this and still be you. Don’t worry, if he did not repent, he suffers worse in hell than he did to you. If he did repent, he felt every single mark and bruise and pain he caused you and every ripple of that during his life review, as if it had all been done to him. No one skates.

    1. seballerina,
      I probably lolly gag too much and yes there are many things that I do because of it that drive people crazy. he was a perfectionist. he expected I keep the home perfect. I would cry every day walking around the house looking to see if i missed something. I had an ulcer by age 9. i am not the best house keeper today because of it. it even drives me crazy, but i can’t bear living like that again. worried all the time about perfection. it can not be achieved.

  15. MM
    Your letter was absolutely horrific and heartbreaking. I am so sorry that you were so badly abused and no one protected you. The way your mother and father treated you was unconscionable. What an unimaginable and hellish nightmare you lived through. There are no words that I can say to make it better or take away such painful memories. You were brutally denied a childhood by those who were supposed to love and care for you the most. Child abuse is the gravest sin and there is no atonement for the devastating loss of your childhood. If there were a way to go back in time and protect you from that violence and heartbreak, I would do it in a heartbeat. You deserved to be loved and cared for.

  16. This made me think of more of my dad’s bizarre behavior. He loved to threaten violence for grades. Never an issue for me but my brothers really were just tormented. Ridiculous. I just thought it was normal. Business as usual.

  17. Dear M, I apologize to the child in you who was brutalized by that man. I admire the woman you are for your strength and perseverance. I commend the mother you are to your children who can feel safe and loved by you.

  18. May God have mercy on you. More like may the devil except you as his twin. As a true empath you cam out of it still capable of love.

  19. HG, what goes on inside you when you read these letters?

    What happens when a narcissist is remanded to any of the various treatment programs or centers?

    1. I recognise the behaviours of our kind. I assimilate the information.

      It depends on what they have been remanded for.

      1. I understand you do not have empathy as you have stated such a million times over on this sight.

        But can you seriously condone child abuse?

          1. It’s probably best I don’t get in a conversation about this. As it won’t be anything productive in this kind of forum. Or with one of your kind.

            In my opinion condoning this type of behaviour can include not having empathy for victims of abuse… and being the kind of person who sees all things as appliances including children. It is the complaincy (as this authors mom participated in) that allows it to happen.

            I have not seen you directly advocate for child abuse… but condoning and advocating are two different things (imo)

            I felt emotional reading the letter.

            I needed someone to blame. And I blame your kind since they are the only ones creating these scenarios.

            I feel a bit better this morning. I am
            Not trying to start an argument I am simply stating my opinion.

          2. I note you do not wish to get into a conversation about this however you have made a comment and therefore you must understand that if you comment, there may be a response.

            You are naturally entitled to your opinion but it is ill-founded. Condone means to accept, therefore your opinion is not based on accuracy.

            Just because I have no emotional empathy does not equate to acceptance. I did not accept the abuse that was meted out against me when I was child. I recognise, intellectually, that the behaviour meted out to the author of this letter was savage and criminal abuse indeed towards a defenceless child.

            It is understandable you felt emotional about the letter and it shows with regard to the inaccuracy evidenced. By all means blame my kind, for it is our kind that can do things as described in this letter, but be accurate with regard to stating someone condones such behaviour.

          3. It’s OK HG. Right after I hit send I realized I was doing my typical thing by not setting a clear boundary by stating my opinion which contradicts my first paragraph…. that’s something I admittedly need to work on.

            In regards to what you said I will just direct everyone back to my second paragraph in my response.

            That’s my opinion. That silence and lack of empathy condones behaviour.
            And I stand by that.

            I understand why you don’t agree with me. And I doubt we could ever reach a conclusion on it. And we are perfect strangers who don’t need to debate about it.

            So my apologies because it’s my fault this whole thing started.

          4. No problem Empath007, you are entitled to express your opinion and you do so in a fair-minded fashion. You need not apologise.

          5. Empathy007,
            I am MM. I felt as you when I first began interacting with HG. I was very angry I lashed out at him a few times and was not so kind. I was actually very rude. Your not being rude, i am simply stating I understand where your coming from. Your basing your logic off of his own previous statements to other scenarios not necessarily abuse. The fact he feels nothing etc . I get that where your going with that, but HG will tell me I am wrong and that is fine. However, I feel HG holds something back. I believe HG does indeed feel. What he feels is muted. As a child that has been abused, I do think he feels a sort of empathy for me since he can relate. I guess that would be cognitive empathy, but he is very intelligent and understands that what he felt as a child, is most likely similar to what I felt. Hg has never lied to me. Hg never turned me away. He didn’t turn me away when the support group claiming to be empaths turned me away. He has never one time steered me wrong. He has no reason to lie. In my mind he is saving my life.
            M.

          6. Hello M. Thank you for sharing your experience.

            This article came at a triggering time for me as you’ve read. So that explains my reaction. I don’t feel bad about the interaction and it’s long over now.

            I don’t have any strong feelings about HG one way or another. And I’m sure likewise HG doesn’t have any feelings about me.
            Other then maybe throwing me in the dungeon for conversations like this 🤣

            This blog has kept me in no contact. And kept me
            Grounded. It’s the most accurate information i found online and I appreciate it a lot. I still feed addicition to my narc in real
            Life… and it keeps me here interacting. To be honest I can’t wait
            Until the day I don’t think of him…. and even this blog disappears…. but when it does I will be armed with knowledge. Thanks to HG.

          7. Empath007 You and me both….look forward to the day we don’t think about him. I should not feel as strongly as I do about HG, but I am an empath, and he truly has saved me from myself in so many ways. I am sick. I am sick much like he is. I don’t know what the technical diagnosis is for it aside from the empath label, but it is the opposite of him in many ways. I am glad and proud for you that you can recognize the emotions that are not logical in this regards. I know you will find your way and find happiness. there will be a day when you don’t think of him, I am sure of it. I see so many that tell me that they are happy and made it out. You and I both might as well. sending light and love. M.

          8. I just clued in you wrote the letter… you’ll have to excuse me my mind is in a million different places these days.

            Im sorry for what happened to you. And I’m glad HG has helped you in your healing journey.

          9. Empath 007

            I understand what you mean but HG is not silent about it, “save the children” is HIS plea that reaches thousands of people every time it comes up top on the blog:

            https://narcsite.com/2019/02/24/save-the-children-10/

            (Not to mention that the letter appears on his blog).

            I can imagine that this blog does more for the awareness and hopefully prevention of child abuse than an empathic “I feel terrible”… Nothing wrong with feeling terrible about child abuse, I’m simply saying that the blog does more than that because it enables people to walk away from partners who abuse.

            Sadly so many of us stay in relationships in which children are indeed abused. Many of us, though we are empathic and do not condone child abuse, collude in it.

            This is a truly tricky subject though: the ways in which empathic partners – who CAN emote – “condone” by not walking away and who thus fail to protect their children.

            You say a conversation about this in this forum wound not be productive – I think it would. I think it’s an important discussion to have. The more we have it the more people will be able to walk away from abuse.

            It’s a highly emotional and sensitive topic but we should not chicken out in my opinion and I for one am glad you raised the subject.

          10. LC
            I concur; the more we discuss abuse, the more likely people will stop accepting it and walk away.

            HG
            I know you don’t condone child abuse.

          11. Do you really know though K…. like actually? Unless you know HG in real life you can’t really state that with certainty.

            He doesn’t condone it … on this blog… we know not much detail as to how relationships with children have gone in his life. Whether he’s dated
            A few women with children and how they fit in the dynamic.

            I’m not making any claims one way or the other. I really truly don’t know and won’t claim too.

            But I think it’s healthy to have some skepticism… that’s all.

            I’m having a bad day figuring out someone I loved and trusted have abused thier kids… so this is the last comment I’m gonna make before I get everyone jumping down my throat🤣🤣

          12. empath007
            You are correct; I do not know for sure and it’s perfectly healthy and understandable to be skeptical and I do agree with with you; silence condones child abuse/bullying/domestic violence.

            You have every right to disagree with me and I appreciate and welcome your input anytime. Be fearless and speak your mind. You may influence me to see things differently.

            I do not know HG personally but I found this comment below very helpful. (to read HG’s comment in its entirety, please go to the link at the very bottom)

            I am not sure if you are aware of this, but HG discusses his sexual abuse as a child, at the hands of his Aunt, on this link:
            https://narcsite.com/2017/04/01/cookie-jar-2/

            Lorelei says:
            July 14, 2019 at 12:25
            I find that hard to believe—it seems a dead ringer for narcissism. How could anyone look at that filth and not be a narc? The interest is disgusting and they are violating children by consuming the material. Maybe they aren’t engaging in the sex acts but the thoughts, sexual arousal, and lack of regard to the victims by looking at the stuff is a form of devaluation. It’s absolutely sickening. (I’m thinking you are disgusted by them too.)
            Frankly at the end of the day—it shouldn’t even technically matter—the same exile would serve all who find this appealing quite well.

            HG Tudor says:
            July 15, 2019 at 10:32
            I agree it is disgusting behaviour. Putting emotion to one side.

            1. An individual who physically/sexually abuses a child has no emotional empathy, no sense of accountability, is manipulative, exhibits a sense of entitlement, possibly grandiose and has no boundary recognition. Thus is a narcissist.
            2. An individual who looks at images of such abuse may well be a narcissist. Some are not, because although there is a lack of empathy for that particular child, the individual does not engage in any physical/sexual abuse and therefore has a degree of limited empathy, a degree of accountability, some boundary recognition, lacks a total sense of entitlement and therefore is narcissistic. There are varying degrees since we know behaviour is on a spectrum.

            https://narcsite.com/2019/07/13/a-very-flightless-narcissist/

          13. Thanks K. This is a little
            Triggering as I am
            Dealing with finding out my family memeber was sexually abused as a child… and then turned around and abused his children. It’s a fact… the authorities have dealt with the matter…. no speculation.

            Thanks for sharing.

          14. I am not privy to all
            Of the details but this is what’s I know:

            He has been running an on line child pornography site for likely over a decade. He is divorced, single, and used he children in the sight.

            His child who is now of age went to the authorities.

            They were already on his interet trail before this happened. A swat team went to his place and confenscated all his computers. Found the incriminating evidence.

            He shot himself.

            So I suppose the sentence was his life.

          15. Thank you HG. I happen to agree. Out of respect for his children I am not discussing this IRL… so posting it here was healing in a way.

            I’ve actually been encouraging family to look at this sight for quite some time regarding him…. and I told some family I believed he was abusing his children years back when I heard certian details of sleeping arrangements etc. But of course these are
            Not things people want to hear.

            I am trying to help family memebers who loved him grieve… as it is naturually shocking.

            So its been a tiring week understandly.

          16. You are welcome empath007
            Your ET is completely understandable. Sexual abuse involving children is unthinkable and it makes me feel sick to even contemplate it. It’s one of the worst possible betrayals that can be inflicted on defenseless children.

            You and your family must be going through a lot of dark and complex emotions now. Keep working through your ET and don’t apologize for how you feel. It’s ok to feel and express anger, rage, hate or frustration.

            Take care.

          17. I’ve never personally seen anything productive come out of on line debates. If you have then we have had different experiences.

            On top of that HG and I disagree. I’ve tried to prove points to narcissits before and it an eternal waste of time. You know where I learnt that? Here…
            His blog…
            It’s literally all
            About the subject of don’t interact with a narc.

            I see the save the children article differently then you do. It’s about awareness yes…. but so are all the articles… and I have no evidence that HG harms children..:: but I have plenty of evidence that even though he empowers victims in romantic relationships …: he still abuses people in romantic relationships outside this blog.

            So logic will tell me that if he does that to women… he would easily do it to children if it was necessary and served his purposes.

            There. Are we all happy I brought up my opinion now and didn’t shy away from it?

            Probably not. Because I know when I am angry and when I should walk away …. and that doesn’t make me a “chicken”

          18. I will add I know people of all spectrums contribute to the problem And I don’t agree with that either.

            But me having this conversation when I feel the way I do is unproductive. And that’s what I was trying to say earlier.

          19. It is constructive to recognise this being the case and therefore you are best served from withdrawing from it.

          20. Thank you HG it is actually one of the things I am working on within adjusting my behaviours in my healing process is to take a step back when I’m tired, angry etc and not engage in conversation. Especially with a narcissist. So I appareciate you saying that

          21. LC
            Good points. I think it COULD be productive but there are a lot of factors. The first being able to remain open and regulate emotion. I have found a tendency (not just here) to have any suggestion that there might be some responsibility on the part of others (meaning other than the narcissist) instantly cause some to become defensive and interpret it as blaming or shaming the victim (in this case it would be the mother). Try telling that to the child in this letter who went to her mother and was refused help by the one person she should have been able to depend on, was instead shamed herself in not being fast enough, and learned that her mothers needs came before her own then and for as long as he was around. Tell me – why should I be understanding of the adult mother in allowing her child to be abused and not question her role in it so that the cycle can be broken? Isn’t that asking the child to stay silent and carry shame instead? Oh, well the mother was under the narcissist’s spell so it wasn’t her fault. Well that makes everything alright then for the 5 year old then and now doesn’t it?

          22. Great LC. I’ll go as far as to say (and I’ve said it before) that if HG only wrote one article, “Save the Children” was the KEY for ensuring I had a guideline and this written piece is advocating for children. I have a friend from a divorce group and she is an empath absolutely but she is making everyone around her sick—this includes her children. Why?? She won’t shut the hell up about her depression, the injustice, etc. It is so bad I don’t respond to her anymore in reference to the subject matter. Her kids are miserable. They prefer being with the narcissist. Child abuse doesn’t only happen at the hands of a narcissist now does it?

          23. Empath 007

            “There. Are we all happy I brought up my opinion now and didn’t shy away from it?

            Probably not. Because I know when I am angry and when I should walk away …. and that doesn’t make me a “chicken””

            First off, I didn’t say you’re a chicken and I don’t think that either, rather I thanked you for making your point – I just disagree with aspects of what you’re saying, certainly not all of it, AND I’d like to see more discussions such as the one you started on this blog.

            WE the blog community, plural, skirt around the subject of child abuse. We often feel (rightly) sorry for what happened to us in childhood. We are often happy to say how bad we feel about abuse that happened to others here, and we are good at saying how awful the abuse by the narcissist is, but it is (understandably) a hot subject to talk about our own way of abusing or the ways in which we enabled abuse (without wanting to).

            “I’ve never personally seen anything productive come out of on line debates. If you have then we have had different experiences.”

            Fair point, yet here we are, debating; debating with one another and debating with a narcissist on a blog that a narcissist created. I tell you what: I’ve often tried leaving this blog, even before I started commenting. So wtf are we doing here. I hope some of it is productive.

            ” On top of that HG and I disagree. I’ve tried to prove points to narcissits before and it an eternal waste of time. You know where I learnt that? Here…
            His blog…
            It’s literally all
            About the subject of don’t interact with a narc.”

            Ok so if I get you right then the main point for you right now is that HG will not budge when he’s convinced of something. He’ll not do word salads here, he’ll explain, interact for sure, but not actually CHANGE his point of view ever. Well – in the time I’ve read here, I would say that this is true. If I’ve missed examples then I’d be happy if someone pointed them out….

            “I see the save the children article differently then you do. It’s about awareness yes…. but so are all the articles… and I have no evidence that HG harms children..:: but I have plenty of evidence that even though he empowers victims in romantic relationships …: he still abuses people in romantic relationships outside this blog.

            So logic will tell me that if he does that to women… he would easily do it to children if it was necessary and served his purposes.”

            I think your logic is infallible there. What makes it bearable for me is that – at least as far as I know – he doesn’t have children of his own. So he does not abuse children even if he might have found himself doing so, had he become a father. I don’t think I could post here if he was a father. I know that he abuses women still but these women are adults and responsible for the way they conduct their relationships. Before a shitstorm breaks lose: I do not condone abuse of adult women.

            There is simply a line for me. I could not post on a blog that’s run by a self professed child abuser.

            So what makes it bearable for me to post on a blog by a self professed adult abuser.

            First, because he uses his knowledge about abuse to prevent abuse. He cannot but abuse in his personal relationships but he teaches victims who are not his to walk away – the contents of the blog are dedicated to this purpose alone and he never strays from this line. That’s a good thing in my opinion. I have learnt a lot from the articles here and he has patiently answered questions I had – except for one on different attachment styles that questioned his theoretical thinking. I might raise the point again some day and see what happens then.

            Second, because he states that he is modifying his behaviour. I know from my analyst that narcissists who WANT to be treated CAN be treated. She has done so successfully. However she would have rejected to treat HG because she says a person who doesn’t want to change cannot be treated. She has rejected several clients who were sent by the family and did not seek treatment because they themselves wanted it. My analyst said as well that if HG really wanted to change he would no longer operate online (even if he teaches about narcissism); the narcissistic idea of creating a legacy would be a thing of the past and something he would stop focusing on. I however keep reading and posting here because a. I am addicted to KTN still, b. I have (the cruel and possibly incurable ) hope that he will change after all, c. because I see what he does for the awareness of narcissistic abuse.

            And it’s c. why I am responding to you here, Empath 007.

            We post on a website run by a narcissist who would, like you correctly say, abuse a child if it suited his needs. Posting here helps to make his site a success (there is no blog success without readers and commenters).

            Are we not colluding then with someone who is abusing women in his private relationships?

            ?

            My hope is that HG is a person who stops at child abuse because he knows and feels in his own way that it is wrong. I cannot post here without that hope.

          24. 1. I do not abuse children.
            2. I was abused as a child.
            3. Part of what I do in my real life disincetivises the abusers of children. Totally. I am not prepared to state anything more to avoid compromising my identity and what I do with regard to this particular sphere of my life.

          25. It’s OK LC you don’t need to explain yourself. I just thought it was important to note that sometimes opted out of the convo is the best thing to do for a person. I’ve seen people get sucked into online debates and all it does is create anger and confusion…. and for what? A stranger we’ll never meet?

            But is this topic important? Very.

            I’m addicited to the blog well. Starting to need to ween myself from it.

            I’m not like most on here to jump to HGs defence (no offence HG) but he’s a powerful man who can hold his own. I’m sure he’s not loosing sleep at night over interactions on the blog… I know he’s ok,

            I do appreciate this community he built And the advice as it’s been crucial to my healing. But I know he’s a narcissist. And I don’t believe everything he says all the time. And this is one of those times I don’t. And no amounting if debating will solve that.

          26. You have evidence because of what I have stated that no such abuse occurs. You do not have any countering evidence, i.e. any evidence of abuse towards children, therefore your conclusion is one which is not founded on logic and is being guided by ET.
            I also know the situation because I know what I do and what I do not do (I am honest and clear about both). You are operating on speculation.

          27. Empath007
            I understand and respect your decision to keep to a healthy skepticism and not to engage further. I’m sorry also that you have experienced this period of dark disappointment due to the actions of someone you know. I would like to say though that offering a viewpoint or opinion that appears to be in line with HG’s (even if a lot of the time) does not mean that those people don’t recognize that he is a narcissist and agree with all that he says all of the time. That indicates a belief that they lack intelligence or ability to process information and make their own decisions. The same goes for empaths – Not everything they say has to be accepted because they are empaths. There have been many to challenge HG on certain points and he has replied with statements such as “fair point”, “noted”, or “an interesting point to consider”. I just think it’s fair to look at all sides regardless the label or “side”.

          28. I don’t think anyone here is unintelligent. Everyone is entitled to their view.

            I completely understand HG defending himself especially on a matter such as this. And I don’t feel
            The need to discuss it with him further.

            He’s clearly and intelligent man who can hold his own and I don’t feel any need or desire to defend him. I doubt he cares at all what my opinion about anything is anyways 🤣 I am at best a tetirary source in his fuel matrix haha.

            I consider his kind to be guilty of child abuse whether it is physical or not.

            HG thinks it’s my ET talking but I think that’s gaslighting as it’s cold hard logic to assume a narcissist would treat children as an appliance.

            But I’m
            Not going to continue to accuse him of something he may or may not do. I agree that that is speculation. And I’m ok with not pushing the point any further.

            I understand your position HG and I also respect it.

          29. Yes children are an appliance but that does not mean that they will automatically be abused by me. I have many friends who are NISS appliances and they have not been abused by me. Why ? Facade management, their fuel does not become stale owing to intermittent involvement and they run less risk of Corrective Devaluation owing to intermittent involvement ( they have less chance to piss me off to put it bluntly) and their value as part of the facade and coterie. That is logic.

            Your allegation of gas lighting is both innaccurate since my response (if it were manipulative) is not gas lighting. Moreover, it is not manipulative but accurate.

            I note you failed to address the point I made about evidence, save where you accept you are engaging in speculation.

            I care about ensuring that accurate information is provided here and part of that is assisting you base opinion on logic and not, your admitted, speculation.

          30. I don’t consider taking your word for it as evidence… that’s you defending your position which you have every right to do… but it’s not actual evidence.

            Ted Bundy said he didn’t kill people… over and over during his trial and time and jail…. that doesnt make it evidence he didn’t do it.

            But I am speculating.
            And I completely understand your position in all this. And I don’t need to push the matter. I put you in an awkward position… my apologies.

          31. The difference is there was evidence against Bundy, supporting the charges brought. There is no evidence against me, why? Because that has never happened.

          32. Ok bringing up Ted Bundy is a little
            Extreme… my point is to say that evidence is not concluded by someone stating something. Especially if that someone is a narc.

            I’d prefer actual
            Evidence over what they say. That’s all.

          33. You are making the allegation and therefore he or she who alleges must prove, you have no evidence, merely speculation. You would prefer actual evidence, but there is none.

          34. This turned into the thing I didn’t want it to the into… I’m sorry… and I’d like to move on.

          35. It was not my experience, but I certainly still think it’s possible for a narcissist to abuse but draw the line at physical abuse regarding children (directly, as I always believe they are indirectly affected). Look at the example of Perry in Big Little Lies. A character yes, but I believe based on true life examples.

          36. NarcAngel
            My MMRN had a fantastic facade and the children were part of that. He used benign control with them and they never wanted for anything. They still love him but they are NC.

            Towards the end he started slipping a little, but two of them were adults by then, in school, at work and hanging out with friends so the effect was minimal. Our biological daughter was subjected to abuse because she witnessed our arguments. She was four at the time. Although the arguments were intermittent, they occurred over a six month period and I am just as responsible for her abuse.

          37. “1. I do not abuse children.
            2. I was abused as a child.
            3. Part of what I do in my real life disincetivises the abusers of children. Totally. I am not prepared to state anything more to avoid compromising my identity and what I do with regard to this particular sphere of my life.”

            This is good enough for me, HG.
            I trust that this is so.

          38. E007,
            Not all narcissists are the same. Greaters are usually not physically abusive since they are well fueled from other sources. Narcissists are humans, even though the rules don’t apply to them, they have beliefs and standards of right and wrong, even if it’s just part of their facade, it’s what they believe in. Empaths are capable of doing mean things too. If they were abused, maybe they’re stressed, they’re human, and sometimes take it out on others too, just not for fuel. Everyone has to rise above demons from time to time. Narcissists do good things too, and sometimes because it’s just logically right, They are good at what they do. Some people, Narc or empath are bottom of the barrel, an empath might be suffering temporary madness, and a Narcissist eternal. But I’ve been around narcissists my whole life and none of them were physically abusive. They were mentally and emotionally damaging to me, my mother almost caused my death once by giving me milk before my anesthesia, she sent me away to start school early so she could have a career, lots of screwing me up, but never physically, outside of that smile when she was spanking me. My mother loves babies, they’re easy fuel, easy molding into faithful appliances.

          39. Hg, what did you mean by your work “disencentivisers” and then you said, “Totally.”?

          40. Disincentivises.

            I stated I would not be stating any further. I explained why.

        1. empath007 the “assimilate” comment made me blink too. I had to look up the meaning to be sure, and yes there are 2…
          To absorb and integrate (which is what I understood it to mean)
          Or
          To take in and understand fully
          Ahh, obviously what HG meant.
          And it’s a subject he’s (understandably)prickly about or he would have pointed that out. I can’t imagine how he suffered. My physical punishments were meted out on my sister while I had to watch. Matrinarc got double the fuel. Multiple I was laden with guilt and sister with resentment. Fun times..
          I always think Star Trek when I see/hear “assimilate” and give my plants the side eye

        2. Empath007, I think you are reading “remand” as “reprimand”

          You misinterpreted HGs comment to read, “it depends what they are reprimanded for” and thought he condoned child abuse. In using “remand”, he was referring to the narcissist and not the victim. Review the thread and it will make more sense now. There are plenty of HGs behaviors to get upset about, but abusing children isn’t one of them. I point this out to make you feel better. Child abuse is an emotional topic and I can understand you getting upset.

        3. Empath007

          I jumped to the same conclusions and although we might not be 100% accurate on our assertion here, it is a fine line to draw (given the nature of the blog), I understand why the response would be confusing. I dont have “words” like the others but I offer similar sentiment to what you describe above in your reaction…. and hugs.

          1. Empath 007 (if you’re still reading), Narc noob and others

            “I’m not like most on here to jump to HGs defence (no offence HG) but he’s a powerful man who can hold his own.”

            That’s me too, I don’t instinctively jump to HG’s defence and it often annoys me when I see this happening here. I appreciate that you say that I needn’t explain myself, Empath 007, but I want to because this is something that I have been thinking about quite a bit.

            I’ve done it on one other occasion and I think this was also a point where I disagreed with you, in the recent piece in which HG explains narcissism as an instinctual response. Sadly you didn’t write back…

            I’m not trying to draw you back in though, if you’re not answering this I’m not upset or offended. I just want to make this one point in response to you as it matters to me.

            You’re right that we cannot be sure if HG is lying or not. His website teaches us to be cautious.

            What we can do though is check his writing for consistency. There is not a single piece in which he adopts the perspective of a child abuser in the way in which he represents the abuse of adult women. (I’m saying women because the photos usually suggest male on female abuse).

            HG is a virtual character created by a real male person whose identity is unknown. HG’s creator has created a virtual persona which he updates daily and which admits to having abused women severely in the past and which states to be modifying its behaviour. Nowhere is it part of this online persona that it has been okay with abusing children at any point in its life (I say “it” deliberately because I want to stress that we’re dealing with a virtual construct that is NOT the real-life HG).

            This is what cuts the cake for me. HG’s creator could quite easily adopt the perspective of a child abuser the way he does for abuse in romantic relationships. But he refrains from doing so, and I believe for good reason. He does not want to be associated with child abuse – not even in the way as if he could imagine having the mind of child abuser.

            There is the piece about the matrinarc – but this is written like a phrasebook, translating narc into plain text and using the perspective of a woman. The other pieces about child abuse are his childhood memories, and indeed the plea to save the children.

            This is what matters in my book. There is consistency throughout. If anybody notices anything different I’m happy to stand corrected.

            There’s one more thing I need to get off my chest. I disagree with NA on BLL 🙂

            Perry is not shown as physically abusing the boys. That’s true. Child abuse is however something that is both physical and emotional (either / or or both and).

            The boys were emotionally abused as they were exposed to Perry’s abuse of the mother. They were able to film the rape. The story is told mostly from Celeste’s perspective. We see how she chooses to focus on the cute aspects of Perry’s parenting and is otherwise in denial (but waking up towards the end of the series upon the intervention of her therapist) – this is a very accurate portrayal of CoD and co-narc mothering. (By co-narc I mean all people who share parenthood with a narc over a considerable period of time in the same premises).

            Emotional child abuse is a bad as physical abuse – or worse. Worse because it doesn’t leave visible traces.

            Again: I’m grateful we’re having this discussion as it might raise awareness.

          2. LC
            That is why I said some narcissists draw the line at abusing children and in brackets put: “directly, as I always believe they are indirectly affected”. I experienced both, but most of my abuse would be considered indirect so I’m well aware of the effects of that.

          3. I do remember your comment in the other article LC. I think you always conduct your thoughts very well.

            Everyone is entitled to thier opinion of HG. He and I are having constructive conversations but I’d rather shut it down when I don’t agree with him. What benefit would it be to anyone for me to
            Keep pushing my point?

            In real life when it is someone I love And trust I will engage in lengthy discussions. As I enjoy them. And I enjoy them here too… which is why I post all the time.

            But if I feel
            It’s going to go down a unproductive road I see it best not to engage.

            I’m trying not to waiver from
            My beliefs or over defend them. I think what I think. It’s fine if people disagree but I don’t wish to be persuaded on specific topics.

          4. NA

            Fair enough. Realistically speaking though, I can imagine that Perry had it in him to correct the boys physically. Had he survived he might have had to have dealt with the twins’ increasing violence. How would he have done that : possibly by blaming Celeste for being ‘too soft’ on them and then showing her how its done ‘properly’?

            I think I misunderstood you in the context of the debate we were having – of whether HG was a child abuser and what the evidence there is for this possibility.

            I think it is NOT possible for a parental narcissist to NOT abuse the children in his or her care. (And HG is not a parent so it doesn’t apply.)

            That’s what I meant to say.

            Evidently the kind of abuse varies and the severity does too. There are different varieties, physical, sexual, emotional etc – a mix of these – but I don’t think I’d speak of “indirect” abuse (although I understand what you mean) … Abuse is abuse. I also know that you know what abuse is and I appreciate the ways in which you bring the subject up on this blog – I really do – especially that you draw attention to the empath’s part in all of it.

            We can’t change the narcissist but we can change ourselves – and the relationship to our children as part of the healing process after disengagement. I hope your mother could see her mistakes and own them eventually, NA!

            K

            I checked out the link you posted about HGs aunt. I had no idea…

          5. Empath 007

            “… but I don’t wish to be persuaded on specific topics.”

            Ok that’s a clear, honest and fair statement, I will observe 🙂

            It’s interesting though, to keep arguing (and failing to stop) even if you yourself know you don’t want to be persuaded. If it’s about something you feel and not “facts”. I’m smiling here because it reminds me of myself when I was trying to deal with my narc husband.

            I think if you had said to HG something like: I’m uncomfortable with you right now – and also extremely angry – because you are of the same kind as the person who abused the author of this letter, and I have no idea what you are up to in your real life and what kind of havoc you wreak there or not, you would have gotten something like “I understand” (and you did say that of sorts and you got that response of sorts).

            I’m writing this because I’m in the process of learning not to argue all the time when in fact it’s about an emotional perception I have (and which used to be routinely negated). I can tell you it’s not easy for me to learn.

            It’s weird, the word empath when I first encountered it suggested to me that it refers to people who always know what they’re feeling, who sense precisely what others are feeling, who know what to do with those feelings and whose feelings are in tune with their thoughts. I thought I couldn’t be an empath then. Well I’ve learnt since that this is not the definition and that I am one even if I don’t always know straight up what it is I’m feeling…

            Anyway, I must thank you again for the discussion because it clarified some important things for me.

            See you in another thread 🙂

          6. Haha! Well I admitted to HG contradicting myself and not setting clear boundaries is an issue for me….
            One that kept me engaged with the narcissits for far too long.

            I’m working on it🤣 it takes time.

            As for child
            Abuse… I have children of my own which I don’t discuss much here. They never met my narc. I didn’t deem him worthy as I found he didn’t treat me with enough respect to deserve access to my children…. I would do anything to protect
            My children…. and so anyone who would do otherwise I have a hard time understanding to say the least. I’m far from the perfect parent. I will never claim to be. I make my own mistakes with them…. but no man Is entering thier life until he proves himself.

            And Definitely LC! We will run into each other again… likely when I am
            Disagreeing with HG 🤣

  20. This letter is so heartbreaking. Im so sorry for the abuse you endured. You are a very strong person to have gone thru all that and held onto your empathetic nature ❤

Vent Your Spleen!

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