You Cannot Control That Which Must Not Be Controlled
You feel like you are trying to deal with an opponent that always seems to be one step ahead. It is like trying to tie down a vapour or stop the tide from advancing and engulfing your sand castle or catching an elusive will ‘o the wisp. No matter what you do, we always seem to have a way of squirming free, walking away and carrying on as normal. It is like trying to fight a battle with a rusty and nicked sword and one hand tied behind your back. It is akin to those dreams where you try to run but find you cannot move. You try to scream but no sound come from your throat. Every move you make appears to have been anticipated. You play a full house in poker and I produce a royal flush but where did that extra king appear from? I always have something up my sleeve. You are chasing the end of the rainbow but it always keeps shifting, just a little bit further away. You are getting nearer, closing on your goal and then it moves again. You think you have mastered the rules and then we introduce a new one which suits our purposes.
Last week we complimented the steak pie that you made. Our praise was effusive and it was a delightful hiatus in the otherwise unpleasant treatment you had been receiving. You decide to play this winning hand again and proudly place it in the centre of the table only to be met with a sigh and a roll of the eyes.
“What’s the matter? You loved the steak pie I made last week.”
“I don’t want to eat steak pie.”
“Why what’s wrong?”
“Why must there always be something wrong. I do not want steak pie.”
“But you did last week?”
“That was then and this is now.”
Cue scathing put downs and storming from the table leaving you bewildered and upset. You don’t make steak pie again only to be scolded the following week.
“What’s happened to the steak pie? Why have you stopped making it when you know that it is my favourite?”
You dress up to the nines and you are called slutty. You dress down and you are upbraided for not putting the effort in. You try to cuddle us in the night and an elbow is jabbed into your chest because you are making us too hot. Two hours later we wake you up and ask you why you stopped hugging us. We tell you that we will be in by seven and then appear at nine. You are forbidden from questioning us about this. You are not entitled to do so. We do as we please. You buy an expensive gift for our birthday and you are told that it is not as good as last year. The following year you really push the boat out to be told you have spent too much and we just wanted something simple. You re-decorate and select a rich chocolate brown. We declare it to be the wrong shade and point to a colour that looks no different. We will not let the matter rest until you have changed it. Once applied it appears the same. We declare we want to go out for dinner and you get ready only for us to decide we would rather stay in and watch sport.
Whatever you do it is always wrong, never correct, not good enough and an erroneous choice. No matter how many times you ask what we want, you still make the wrong choice. You suggest that we do it ourselves and you are accused of not caring. You confirm you will deal with it and you are a control freak who will not allow us to breathe on our own. Whatever you decide to do or say we will find a way of twisting it around so it suits us. Our logic seems entirely warped to you but to us it makes perfect sense because the only logic we adhere is that which means whatever we say is right, even when we show rank hypocrisy or we contradict ourselves. We can reason away every contradiction you point out to us and if you somehow back us into a corner then we will just accuse you of badgering us, change the subject or walk away. In our minds we win every single time.
We cast you aside telling you that you have let yourself go and we cannot be with you. You see us the next week and we are with someone less attractive than you, carrying more weight and who holds down a job less prestigious that yours. You cannot comprehend why we let you go and chose her instead, especially after what we said. You stare open-mouthed and scratch your head. To us we win again because we have acquired someone new whose fuel is better than anything you have ever provided and in addition we have got to you, so you pour out the negative fuel. If we had suddenly appeared with a supermodel instead you might talk a small degree of comfort in thinking that you could not compete with this person but do not let that think you have secured some kind of small victory. In our minds this just reaffirms that we were right to leave you and trade up.
You catch us in bed with someone else. It is not our fault. If you loved us properly we would not have to stray. You show us complete love and devotion and nobody could ever accuse you of selling us short in the bedroom. We accuse you of having too high a sex drive because you must be getting it elsewhere. If you apply reason and logic, especially towards one of our lesser brethren, then they will ignore the force of your words and instead accuse you of trying to belittle and bamboozle them with long words plucked from the dictionary and why do you always have to patronise them with such words and sentences. Whatever you choose, whatever you decide, whatever you do it will always be wrong and whatever we do will always be right. Accuse us as much as you like for being twisted, illogical and difficult and we will be in your face pointing out how you always have to try and get one over us. Black becomes white and then becomes yellow. Nothing makes sense with us but that is because it makes complete sense to us. Our approach is to gather fuel and that means we can and must do so through any means even if that does not stack up when looked at from your point of view. This warped and stretched approach allows us to achieve our aims, we confuse and bewilder you, we upset and anger you, we control you and each and every time we know that we have succeeded. Like the most deluded Minister of Propaganda we claim to have defeated you even as your tanks roll past us in the background. We see only what we want to see and we are impervious to all of your reason. We will never accept what you tell us because that does not accord with what we set out to achieve and what we must achieve. Of course this will not stop you trying. You try to defeat us as we replace your arrows with celery sticks and your sword with a stale baguette. We never fight fair. Your frustration, annoyance and inability to comprehend why we do this is what keeps you bound to us and allows us to keep on doing what we must keep on doing. Exerting control and extracting fuel.
You cannot control the uncontrollable.
Until you understand this and apply this understanding, you will forever be run ragged and misled by your emotional thinking posing as logic, but it is flawed logic.
We are designed to reject control. You try (unwittingly) to control us.
Therein lies the problem.
Stop trying to control us because you will never succeed.
Do not accept what I tell you time and time again? Go ahead, build that tower, build it high with the stones that adhere to your beliefs and principles, from stone that is beautifully cut and polished, that anybody would admire and cherish, but let us see how you build that tower with the sands beneath it which constantly shift and alter.
Watch that supposed no contact regime come crashing down because it is built on a terrible foundation.
74 thoughts on “You Cannot Control That Which Must Not Be Controlled”
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Hi HG, I stumbled upon your blog by accident but they are by far the most insightful writings on the subject and spookily accurate when it comes to the personal relationship with my narc. I do have a recent problem though where I would love your thoughts on the matter. I’ll try not to bore you too much.
My relationship has been on and off for the past 4 years. I (IPSS) and she (I think Upper Mid-Range). We started off as just friends and we started hanging out a lot. We used to hike, go on road trips or just hang out at each others place and have a laugh. Then she seduced me one night when we were both drunk at a party and since then we’ve been in like a fwb situation. I’ve always been there for her, supported her and helped her out a lot. I’ve also met a lot of her family, as a friend, and do some work for her aunt. We have a similar circle of friends too. I’m the person she usually rings when she needs help and she tells me a lot of things from her life that she says she has never told anyone else.
I noticed that over the last year or so she has wanted to hang out less and less and she didn’t have as much time for me but we still had booty calls once or twice a month. She has started to be rude to waiting staff in stores and restaurants when we go out sometimes too for silly little things. She can’t have sex or be intimate unless she is drunk, only at her behest and when she wants it to happen.
Anyway to the problem. I asked her to spend a Friday night at mine and she agreed. That morning she asked me to pick her up and when I arrived she was already really drunk. She had been up all night drinking and hadn’t slept. She asked me to take her on a few errands so I obliged. We spent the afternoon visiting mutual friends and she continued to drink as we went. At the last friends house they were both drinking and she took control of his tv remote, put on music and started dancing provocatively in front of the tv. We headed on to my place afterwards and she took our friend’s tv remote out of her pocket and said oops. I was annoyed at this point because the Friday evening I had in mind for us was so far removed from the reality of the situation. Our friend rang me and asked if I had seen his remote so I decided to return it. We took the hour long round trip and by the time we got back she was saying how tired she was. She then proceeded to mess up the kitchen and stretched out on the couch and said she was going to sleep. By this stage I’d had enough, (I also had an important event the next evening which had been playing on my mind all week), and decided I was taking her home. She protested a bit and stormed into her house without a word when I dropped her off.
So she gave me the silent treatment for 2 weeks and then we sort of made amends and exchanged gifts a couple days before Christmas, which I took as a good sign. I asked her to come over to mine for a night and she replied that she would never be coming to my house again, that she loved me but we were just friends now and no more. I asked why and she said because I took control of the situation, control of her and didn’t give her a say that night so she wouldn’t be giving me the opportunity to make her feel powerless again. I asked her how we could make things right, because I do love her and she can be really good at times. I told her that I wasn’t sure about the just friends part though if she is prepared to turn her back on me so easily.
She had a man intimidate her with threatening behaviour around New Years day and she rang me distressed. She asked me to come down and help her deal with it. So I drove down because I was really worried about how distraught she sounded on the phone and I sorted the situation. She told me she loved me and trusted me again because I’m always there for her. We fucked that night. The next day however there was a coldness and ever since there is a sense of game playing which I don’t like.
So HG my question to you is, did I injure her so badly that our relationship is over, or am I painted black for the moment and just need to give her space? It’s really confusing with her hot and cold behaviour.
Welcome John. You first need to establish whether you are dealing with a narcissist, therefore I encourage you to use the narc detector. If she is a narcissist, you have not wounded her through the description you have given above, you have continued to interact with her, providing her with fuel. I recommend that you organise a consultation with me so I can advise you in detail.
Thank you HG for your reply. I might get a chance to do that in the near future.
Hi HG, I stumbled upon your blog by accident but they are by far the most insightful writings on the subject and spookily accurate when it comes to the personal relationship with my narc. I do have a recent problem though where I would love your thoughts on the matter. I’ll try not to bore you too much.
My relationship has been on and off for the past 4 years. I (IPSS) and she (I think Upper Mid-Range). We started off as just friends and we started hanging out a lot. We used to hike, go on road trips or just hang out at each others place and have a laugh. Then she seduced me one night when we were both drunk at a party and since then we’ve been in like a fwb situation. I’ve always been there for her, supported her and helped her out a lot. I’ve also met a lot of her family, as a friend, and do some work for her aunt. We have a similar circle of friends too. I’m the person she usually rings when she needs help and she tells me a lot of things from her life that she says she has never told anyone else.
I noticed that over the last year or so she has wanted to hang out less and less and she didn’t have as much time for me but we still had booty calls once or twice a month. She has started to be rude to waiting staff in stores and restaurants when we go out sometimes too for silly little things. She can’t have sex or be intimate unless she is drunk, only at her behest and when she decides.
Anyway to the problem. I asked her to spend a Friday night at mine and she agreed. That morning she asked me to pick her up and when I arrived she was already really drunk. She had been up all night drinking and hadn’t slept. She asked me to take her on a few errands so I obliged. We spent the afternoon visiting mutual friends and she continued to drink as we went. At the last friends house they were both drinking and she took control of his tv remote, put on music and started dancing provocatively in front of the tv. We headed on to my place afterwards and she took our friend’s tv remote out of her pocket and said oops. I was annoyed at this point because the Friday evening I had in mind for us was so far removed from the reality of the situation. Our friend rang me and asked if I had seen his remote so I decided to return it. We took the hour long round trip and by the time we got back she was saying how tired she was. She then proceeded to mess up the kitchen and stretched out on the couch and said she was going to sleep. By this stage I’d had enough, (I also had an important event the next evening which had been playing on my mind all week), and decided I was taking her home. She protested a bit and stormed into her house without a word when I dropped her off.
So she gave me the silent treatment for 2 weeks and then we sort of made amends and exchanged gifts a couple days before Christmas, which I took as a good sign. I asked her to come over to mine for a night and she replied that she would never be coming to my house again, that she loved me but we were just friends now and no more. I asked why and she said because I took control of the situation, control of her and didn’t give her a say that night so she wouldn’t be giving me the opportunity to make her feel powerless again. I asked her how we could make things right, because I do love her and she can be really good at times. I told her that I wasn’t sure about the just friends part though if she is prepared to turn her back on me so easily as friends try to make things right.
So HG my question to you is, did I injure her so badly that our relationship is over, or am I painted black for the moment and just need to give her space?
Hi HG, I stumbled upon your blog by accident but they are by far the most insightful writings on the subject and spookily accurate when it comes to the personal relationship with my narc. I do have a recent problem though where I would love your thoughts on the matter. I’ll try not to bore you too much.
My relationship has been on and off for the past 4 years. I (IPSS) and she (I think Upper Mid-Range). We started off as just friends and we started hanging out a lot. We used to hike, go on road trips or just hang out at each others place and have a laugh. Then she seduced me one night when we were both drunk at a party and since then we’ve been in like a fwb situation. I’ve always been there for her, supported her and helped her out a lot. I’ve also met a lot of her family, as a friend, and do some work for her aunt. We have a similar circle of friends too. I’m the person she usually rings when she needs help and she tells me a lot of things from her life that she says she has never told anyone else.
I noticed that over the last year or so she has wanted to hang out less and less and she didn’t have as much time for me but we still had booty calls once or twice a month. She has started to be rude to waiting staff in stores and restaurants when we go out sometimes too for silly little things. She can’t have sex or be intimate unless she is drunk, only at her behest and when she wants it to happen.
Anyway to the problem. I asked her to spend a Friday night at mine and she agreed. That morning she asked me to pick her up and when I arrived she was already really drunk. She had been up all night drinking and hadn’t slept. She asked me to take her on a few errands so I obliged. We spent the afternoon visiting mutual friends and she continued to drink as we went. At the last friends house they were both drinking and she took control of his tv remote, put on music and started dancing provocatively in front of the tv. We headed on to my place afterwards and she took our friend’s tv remote out of her pocket and said oops. I was annoyed at this point because the Friday evening I had in mind for us was so far removed from the reality of the situation. Our friend rang me and asked if I had seen his remote so I decided to return it. We took the hour long round trip and by the time we got back she was saying how tired she was. She then proceeded to mess up
the kitchen and stretched out on the couch and said she was going to sleep. By this stage I’d had enough, (I also had an important event the next evening which had been playing on my mind all week), and decided I was taking her home. She protested a bit and stormed into her house without a word when I dropped her off.
So she gave me the silent treatment for 2 weeks and then we sort of made amends and exchanged gifts a couple days before Christmas, which I took as a good sign. I asked her to come over to mine for a night and she replied that she would never be coming to my house again, that she loved me but we were just friends now and no more. I asked why and she said because I took control of the situation, control of her and didn’t give her a say that night so she wouldn’t be giving me the opportunity to make her feel powerless again. I asked her how we could make things right, because I do love her and she can be really good at times. I told her that I wasn’t sure about the just friends part though if she is prepared to turn her back on me so easily.
So HG my question to you is, did I injure her so badly that our fwb relationship is over, or am I painted black for the moment and just need to give her space?
See my answer provided earlier.
Hi HG, your writings are so accurate when it comes to my ex-fwb narc behaviours that it is scary. I would really like your opinion on something that happened recently if you have the time and inclination.
I have been seeing my narc fwb for a couple of years on and off. I think I’m an IPSS and that she is an Upper Mid-Ranger. We started out as just friends and I helped her out with a lot of things and anytime she needed help she contacted me. We started hanging out more and more after she broke up with her IPPS, until one night we were both drunk, (she will only be intimate or have sex when drunk), she seduced me and we ended up having sex. We have been seeing each other on and off since, (always at her behest and on her terms), and she always needs to be really drunk.
Anyway, a few weeks ago I asked her to come over to mine for the Friday night. She agreed and when Friday morning came she asked me to pick her up as she had some errands to run. When I got to her house she was really drunk. She said she was up all night drinking, hadn’t been to bed and was quite tired. I already saw our evening melting away at this point. I took her around to do her errands while she kept drinking and the last stop was a mutual friend’s house. We stayed there for a couple hours, they both were drinking at this stage. I took her to my place and it was getting on in the evening at this stage and she kept mentioning that she was so tired. She then pulled our friend’s tv remote from her pocket and insisted that we leave it back. I was getting really fed up with her antics at this stage but got back in the car and spent another hour returning a television remote. We got back to mine again and she made a mess in the kitchen then lay on the couch. I had been looking forward to our evening as she is usually great fun and we always have a laugh. I had enough at this point, told her to grab her things because I was taking her home. She got in the car and made a few threats like, if you take me home we are done… I dropped her home and left her there.
She gave me the silent treatment for 2 weeks after. Then when she did start talking again she told me that she doesn’t trust me like she used to. She said how upset she was that I took control of her and the situation that night and she’d never give me the opportunity to do that to her again. She said that she would never stay in my house again and that we are just friends and that’s it now. I told her that I don’t know if friends will work for me again. We stopped doing friend stuff a while back and it would end up with me performing acts of service for her and helping her out with no reciprocation.
Is this the end of our intimate relationship HG, have I injured her too much by making her feel powerless or will she change her mind given a bit of space? I know it sounds crazy but I do really love her.
Just some thoughts and comments about forgiveness..
It seems that the idea of this often goes hand in hand with this concept that you can’t have your anger over something. I’ve heard even therapists promote this idea that anger is a secondary emotion, and encourage people not to be angry. Which it can be, like if it’s covering up shame or fear, for example. And how often do we have poor role models for anger, either abusing us other people with it with physical or verbal abuse, passive aggressiveness, etc. or abusing themselves with resentments but stuffing their anger with food or substance abuse, etc.
But anger in and of itself, when it’s a primary emotion, I believe is trying to tell you something. Maybe your boundaries are being violated, or you’re in some kind of danger. As I’ve gotten older, I’ve really to learned to listen when this comes up. You don’t have to “do” anything with it necessarily (although I find it does have a certain kind of energy to it, and when something angers me, I’ll like go for a walk and think, or assert myself in the moment, if the situation calls for it).
With the narc, or any person who is treating you badly, I agree that it’s a big mistake to not learn your lesson, and keep going to the person with your feelings, because all that does is show them what your weaknesses are, and what your hot buttons are, and they will just use it to their advantage (if not immediately, then at some point down the line). But if you feel angry over being treated badly and channel it towards No Contact/ GOSO, more power to you. That’s a great way to use your natural anger- to put your boundaries up and keep the bulls**t away from you.
Eventually I have found the feeling naturally fades, and you don’t think about the person as much anymore. And we need another word in the English language for this- when you don’t forgive the absuive behavior in and of itself, but do have an understanding of why people are the way they are, and respect yourself enough not to let that crap back in your life. People often call this “forgiveness”, or they think you have to forgive the abusive behavior itself, but I don’t think so. I don’t forgive that part, but I know eventually my emotions will subside and I’ll get my equilibrium back.
The comments on this thread are very interesting. I think there is a relatively easy solution to this seeming conundrum: there isn’t only one truth, one correct logic, when it comes to people’s world view and motives. Universal truths exists in the physical world although even many of those get rejected, revised etc over time – simply because even though we try to explain impersonal matter and processes, we only have access to them through our human perception and limited ways of measuring, with tools we designed and theories the mind can access. Now when it comes to things as subjective as how individuals, or groups of individuals, view the psychological aspects of life and reality, it almost doesn’t make any sense to imply that there can ever be one single truth and logical explanation to those. There are definitely patterns that tend to fit phenomena and behaviors well (and some are explained by psych theories, diagnoses, neuroscience etc) but little of this is simple enough to be explained satisfying by one theory that negates every other. Of course this view I am expressing is also subjective.
“You cannot control the uncontrollable.”
True, but it is just as as true from someone else’s perspective. E.g. those expressed in some comments here, how in a narc-empath relationship the N is totally dependent on the E because they need the fuel provided. Not dependent on one particular E as they can easily be substituted, but dependent on the “substance” provided. The way I see this, it is not truly a form of external locus of control, so it may feel self-imposed and self-administered, but still uses something that is external and the availability of it defines the well-being of the one self-administering it, who may feel highly in control. Once again, like in many aspects, it is similar to most other addictions. It is a cliche that one cannot control an addict as they are so highjacked by their own desire for their drug of choice and the effect it provides that it defies any reason. But the addict has their own logic and justification, which actually does make perfect sense, from their perspective. I know because I’ve been there. One difference I see is that a serious drug addiction is usually not pleasant to have, it is one of the most painful and out of control conditions that a human can experience, I think. People frequently commit suicide due to it because it can feel so hopeless and helpless. What is still a bit of a mystery for me, and eludes my own logic, is how a narc doesn’t experience their condition as extremely painful, unwanted, and ultimately unsatisfying, beyond those moments when they feel the Creature etc influencing. That they say narcissism works for them. Here is where I can’t come up with any other logic but one saying that something is truly missing from that mind/brain, or is just extremely different. Some of the mental/biological processes here that are so automatic to non-narcs and generate the guilt, shame, need for forgiveness etc, which contribute to a different form of view. It’s kinda like we cannot even have the same one physical law because the physical realities are not the same. But that’s exactly what HG describes himself sometimes, I think. I personally find it much easier to accept that there can be alternate realities of all kinds vs. constantly insisting that there is only one yet finding inconsistencies and that the puzzle never fits.
I do like the concept of ET vs. LT in the context of resolving narcissistic abuse because it simplifies things and makes them much more practical and applicable. It is indeed super logical to realize something is destructive, hurtful, and if we want to stop it, we need to get away from it and not look back. Making this happen in reality is what’s difficult, much like (again) for an addict to quit their drug for good and remain 100% abstinent forever. But having constant reminders of the simple practical facts can be very helpful, much like in any recovery program. It is actually even more interesting and fascinating getting the advice and reminders from a narc, sort of the equivalent of imagining a drug itself thoughtfully guiding the people addicted to it. It is obviously impossible with chemicals and other impersonal addictions, so what we have is peer support (similar to empaths talking to each-other) and some professional treatments. Here it is different and even more interesting because people can see and understand a world view we otherwise just have no or very little access to internally or from others struggling with the same, in the same way.
Yes, most psych professionals don’t think that Empath is a valid psych concept or diagnosis. I don’t think anyone doubts that Empathy is invalid though. But isn’t it still useful to understand what is going on, in this specific context? Our formal understanding and conceptualization of psych issues is extremely limited, with huge holes on it, and not very effective either when it comes to treatments. I personally see any effort that furthers that poor understanding and leads to potential practical solutions extremely valuable. We can still have reservations and feel uneasy when it hurts our personal values, but the question I like to ask: does it help or doesn’t it? If it does, then use it. If it doesn’t, don’t use it and find something else. That’s also simplistic, but pretty logical, in my opinion.
If there is a god the best punishment for narcissists after dead is to be gifted with empathy and then remember AND feel all the evil they have done to others. The best punishment in life is to put them in strict isolation and throw away the keys.
Ironically it is the “victim” who always has the gun on narcissist´s head. All he/she needs is to pull the trigger and cut all the contact. Checkmate. The “winning” narcissist is just an illusion. They are resentful because they are 100% dependent of other people and their emotional reactions. People they see as inferior to them.
Hello Mika
It’s fascinating; empaths and narcissists have two completely different world views and your comment reminded me of these comments below.
Ines says:
January 13, 2020 at 06:04
I’ve read thousands of comments and tweets on the recent events. Does Miss Markle not realize that millions of people see right through her? Her thinking, scheming, motivations are no mystery. What kind of reaction did she expect? Do you think she’s watching the news and scanning the web to gauge public opinion? If so then is she panicking? I would be.
All this reminds me of Diana, who had borderline personality disorder. (A member of my extended family is the gold standard of BPD. I know of which I speak.) She was genuinely taken aback when her antics (e.g. tell-all book & t.v. interview) blew up in her face. She was a superstar who thought she could control the narrative. At times she could. But eventually it caught up with her.
HG Tudor says:
January 13, 2020 at 07:56
No because her narcissism will cause her to never accept she is wrong or at fault and in a variety of different ways maintain that it is everybody else’s fault. The narcissism must always ensure control is asserted and this means adopting an alternative perspective so that the narcissist is always winning and everybody else is always losing.
https://narcsite.com/2020/01/10/a-very-royal-narcissist-part-8/comment-page-2/#comments
In my opinion empaths do not exist. At least I have never found such term in psychology research. It is good to remember that narcissistic personality disorder is mental illness. Any mental illness always causes suffering to the person who has it. Narcissist is a slave, and what HG calls fuel is their master. And people who interact with them decide if they want to give that “fuel” to them or not. That makes the “victim” a slave master who has all the power. Would you resent somebody whose slave you are? Probably. If living in slavery is a “victory”, I will gladly let narcissist “win” every single time. It is like a chess game where you chess mate your opponent, leave the table and your opponent is still insisting he/she won. And in his/her mind he/she absolutely believes that narrative. But who cares? A narcissist can never leave his narcissistic web. This slavery is their life sentence. You are lucky because you do not have this disorder.
Mika
The term: Empath was unfamiliar to me before narcsite, however, I found this article very helpful.
https://narcsite.com/2019/08/14/the-super-empath-12/
You are correct; The Games are Always Being Played and the only way to win is not to enter the battlefield and
I agree with you; I am very lucky that I am not disordered.
“I want to own you to stop being the slave that I am.” – Own
https://narcsite.com/2019/08/20/own-12/
Yes. I think the last phase of your recovery is forgiveness. For instance, I am not angry to my ex narcissistic girlfriend anymore. However, I feel anger because she has this disorder or at least very strong traits of it. She never asked to become a person she is (her self loathing was not very well hidden) Her idealize-devalue-discard pattern is also obvious. I feel anger because so many people become victims of this disorder (including the narcissist him/herself.). I feel anger because there is nothing you can do to cure this disorder. In a way I understand that for a narcissist it feels very unfair that you can escape but he/she can not. And this is the hardest part to accept for emphatic people. There is nothing you can do. Not before, not now, not in the future. You must accept your own limits too. There are people who you can not save. So, I feel compassion to narcissistic people but of course I would never let them know that in my personal life. Fortunately there are not any in my personal life at the moment (well, if there is I do not know that yet).
The last phase is Zero Impact.
Forgiving is a form of engaging and breaches the first golden rule of no contact.
HG
I had no idea that forgiveness breaches no contact, however, it makes complete sense when you think about it.
Indeed K. You are still feeling and thinking towards the narcissist.
HG
I have made a note of this. Emotional thinking really does deceive us and the complacency of forgiveness could potentially lead us right back into the FR.
Indeed.
Mika Sutinen
Your anger and frustration is understandable, that’s your emotional thinking impacting on your empathic traits of compassion, decency, the need to fix/heal and fairness. Your compassion is fuel so you are wise to keep that to yourself. All we can do is accept the disorder, learn how to protect ourselves, avoid narcissists and spread awareness. You may find this article helpful.
https://narcsite.com/2017/05/03/zero-impact/
Forgiveness is a Christian guilt trip
Forgiveness is not about religion. It is, as was said before, about letting go. Kind of funny that the empathy that put me on this mess has done a lot to make me feel good about myself. Of course most of this empathy is directed to myself (maybe first time in my life) For HG its part of emotional thinking but I disagree. He is entitled to his opinions of course. I choose to believe people like Dalai Lama. Happy healing folks!
@Mika
I view forgiveness and acceptance as different.
I will accept that someone is a narc and therefore can not help what their personality disorder causes them to do, but to forgive the pain and suffering they have caused to me and will continue to do to others? fuck all of that!
I abide by “cleanse it with fire” and “whatever is taken is owed”
Forgiving is not about the narcissist because he doesn’t feel and it doesn’t matter to him. Forgiving is for the victims because it releases the emotions from themselves and any grudges, because it understands why the narcissist did what they did and that it wasn’t actually anything personally against the victim, it’s what they do to everyone. Forgiving is for the victims not the narcissist, it frees them of grudges and anger, and releases any thoughts or caring they used to have for the narcissist, so that they can move on.
No. Forgiving means you are engaging. You can move on without falling prey to this manifestation of emotional thinking. Moreover, why forgive someone who neither genuinely seeks it nor deserves it. You are being conned by thinking it is for you. If you want to do something for yourself, understand, reduce you ET and maintain your no contact regime. That is far more effective.
Once I understood, I was able to move forward. There is nothing to forgive.
Indeed.
It’s not about forgiving the narcissist, it’s about letting go as Mika said. It’s seeing the situation logically for what it is and for what happened, and letting go of it. It doesn’t mean you forgive the narc, it means you let go and you stop caring. Holding a grudge like narcissists do, would be emotional thinking. Forgiving and forgetting doesn’t mean you’re forgiving them and everything’s hunky dory now, it means you’re not angry about it anymore, you’re not polluting yourself with any hostility or anger over the situation- you’re letting go of it and moving on. We cease to care about the narc, and we don’t even bother to care enough about them to be angry or harbor any resentment. It’s peaceful, healthy, and logical- which is so nice after being bogged down with negativity from all the years spent with a narcissist.
So, you are not actually forgiving at all then.
” It doesn’t mean you forgive the narc, it means you let go and you stop caring.”
So, what I stated is the correct thing to do, you agree with.
Yes, so I would say forgiving is closure and the emotional equivalent to the physical -“When you know, you go” or GOSO. You understand and you let go, emotionally and mentally. If on a rare occasion I see something my narc’s been tagged in on FB, I have no emotions about him, it doesn’t bother me and I don’t think anything about it, I can think positively even. I know he’s no good, I understand why, I don’t harbor any resentment, I don’t concern myself with him.
You misunderstand. The act of forgiving is a breach of no contact. What you describe as forgiving, is not forgiving, it is what I explained earlier. Kel.
Dictionary: Definition of Forgive- Stop feeling angry or resentful toward someone for an offense, flaw, or mistake.
You’re always right HG, that is a given. I only commented about forgiving for fellow victims because we physically goso and then we mentally do as well.
It seems the definition of forgiving is the problem. Forgiving as an act of, well…giving something vs just letting something go. I see there being a difference but perhaps there is no such distinction for some.
Hmm. HG is right. It’s a massive breach of NC. But I can understand others attitudes to forgiveness.
However, if we essentially make the aim of NC being like the narc never existed then logically, HG is correct. I agree with him.
I question if the Dalai Llama is all that and a bag of chips as well.
Kel
Very gently, you are already violating NC. Massively. Usage of ‘My Narc’, then open SM feed and finally forgiveness.
Its lowering the bar.
Renarde
I am not violating any breach. I have zero impact because of HG. ‘My’ narc is simply a common term we use on the blog to communicate. No part of me is his or visa versa. Also I am not violating sm. I have FB with family and friends. I do not search anything regarding him. I have no ET about him. Please don’t assume.
There are two interpretations of the word forgive, well, even more, which is why I wanted to differentiate it. The common one of course is when you forgive someone you love and are continuing a relationship with, different than when someone has abused you like a narc and you’re severing the relationship. That’s all I was trying to clarify because it’s important to do.
Kel or anyone—I can now reply to people within the body of this thread. Because I subscribed after sending a reply in the one spot I could. The question is—can I subscribe to a thread without commenting? Where I subscribe it’s associated with a comment. I don’t know if anyone will know what I’m talking about. I don’t often know.
This discussion on forgiveness is really almost emotional for me right now and this is the only spot I can chime in on WP. I see that HG even commented not to (paraphrasing here) bother as they don’t deserve it basically anyway and it breaches no contact. Very logical—but my engagement due to the reflection of narcissists in my life is quite high right now and it didn’t occur to me until reading all of this. Meaning that I’m surrounded by pictures of my father. I’m tasked with sorting through all of the photographs this week. I had to do this on a lesser scale for photos for my mother’s service this weekend, but currently I have to sort and distribute family items for all of the grandchildren. It’s emotionally exhausting and in a way that is somehow different than it would have been pre-narcissism awareness. (Alexis often refers to pre and post awareness so I adopt this manner of expressing the knowledge as it makes sense.) My grandfather was hurtful to me, my father’s mother was likely (I’m certain actually) a mid range narcissist and I can’t help but think of the familial trickle of narcissism and impacts that led to my own personal impact. A family tree of sorts. It’s a highly emotional time right now. That’s all. I’m really glad I have such a good family. I have no idea how my brothers and their families are so pleasant and wonderful after having been raised by my father. He used to tell my one brother in particular how useless he was and would never amount to anything. He used triangulation by highlighting me as the one who had potential. (Which made me a target for resentment)
I take satisfaction in knowing that my brother is an excellent person and has self made wealth my father never could have predicted. Yet, relishing in this is a form of engagement. It’s all just bitter sweet poison I suppose.
Interesting. No contact been working for 13 years. Sand is concrete now.
Well done.
Narc 2 always complained that I was “uncontrollable” and a “stubborn little bitch”, “You don’t do anything I suggest, always have to do it your way!”. Narc 1 was pissed and said “Well apparently you always listen to *** (narc 2), you never listened to me!”. But both controlled me really. It was like being in a pinball machine lol! Was. Past tense. Thank you HG.
I always get nervous when the narcissist gets quite. Today, I dealt with the narc raging, and harassing my family, then his attorney calls me-I dont answer, and she sends me an email. I respond calmly. But there is SILENCE. The silence is the punishment he is planning to unleash on me, and he is sitting back calculating.
I know I can’t control it, and I didn’t do anything wrong, but my daughter is 3 and she can already sense when this is about to happen.
Anm—sorry all this chaos still persists.
Thank you, Lorelei. I’m not going to lie, it sucks.
I’m sorry. The hardest part when actively “in it” (actively in court) was just the emotional drain of it not being over. The what if’s etc. I never got a great grasp on the associated stress but once life resumed there was a marked difference in how I felt. It was “over” in July. My biggest emotional improvement coincided with this time frame.
Court.
I’ve been stopped living my life for 20 months. Will rumble on for more.
It’s a frightening and horrifying experience.
Your right HG nothing is ever good enough no matter how we hard we try to please. Its in the blood of the Narcissist to turn things around and make it look like it’s our fault. Control will always be rejected and your right Narcissist will never change.
So true. If there’s one thing I’ve learned and understand with complete clarity is that I cannot and will never control him. He absolutely will not permit it and the consequences make attempting to do so not worth it. He is very scary when he gets angry, even though he’s never laid a hand on me. So I don’t go there anymore and I’m perfectly fine with that, as I have no desire to ignite his fury. The part I hate though is that there have been times I’ve been accused of trying to control him when I really wasn’t. I guess that shouldn’t surprise me, given what he is. I am very careful not to even give the impression that I am trying to exert control over him in any way. It is what it is.
Talyn I agree with you. They also dont like to be criticized by anyone.They take it so personally, but they have no trouble doing it to others. GRRRRRR!
Excellent! Brutal reality.
Just the title alone is rich coming from a narcissist 😄
You are not designed to reject control though. We are. Hence the title is both accurate and necessary to assist your understanding.
HG, I’m a hippy. I reject control all the time. I just don’t understand the concept of why there has to be so much oppression and control everywhere.
Explain to me, ANM The Hippy, what you understand as the form of control which you reject and the reason(s) you reject it.
So much HG. I was raised in a strict religious environment. I felt suffocated, and resented the lack of personal autonomy for all in my community.
I can’t stand how we keep passing laws back and forth about mundane issue like whether or not marijuana or e-cigarettes should be legal. I don’t smoke, and I dont care what others do. And I appreciate having the freedom to decide for myself about how to live my life.
Narcissist are controling. I always reject their control.
Indeed, you do not have a need for control though in the way that we do.
And what you really mean is, you just want to get Hippy High!
I hate weed. The laziness, the smell..
Maybe I’m a Midranger. I don’t know.
https://narcsite.com/empath-detector/
HG, if we are not an empath will you tell through the empath detector?
Yes.
The whole empath thing still cracks me up that I thought it was people fanning you with those Cleopatra era things and filling your water. I’m not kidding. I was like how the f**^ did I end up in this hole.
Massachusetts just enacted a four month ban on all vaping products and E-cigarettes. It’s ridiculous (contempt).
HG can control be taking over a situation and having it your way ?
Yes.
Thank you HG
“You cannot control the uncontrollable.
Until you understand this and apply this understanding, you will forever be run ragged and misled by your emotional thinking posing as logic, but it is flawed logic.“
The Buddha has spoken.
Who are you calling fat?!!!
Inner Buddha, Inner Buddha!
Swift recovery
Taylor Swift recovery. Now write a nasty song about your ex.
What size are your pants? 34 I imagine.
Waddup Lisk. Here’s a saying you might like:
“if you meet the Buddha on the road, kill him”.
HG – the time has come.*hefts axe*
Jk, I’m not the violent type. Thanks for your insights, I’ve found them helpful and entertaining. I can draw a line under things now. Now – important frolicking to do. All the best 🙂