Does the Narcissist Think About You Afterwards



The narcissist has disengaged from you. No matter what position you are in the fuel matrix, you are likely to wonder “Does the narcissist still think about me?” The answer to this common question can apply to any appliance but it is most asked by the disengaged IPPS because it is the IPPS who is disengaged from more than any other appliance.

Naturally, if you try to contact us post disengagement, through text message, telephone call, personal appearance and so forth, we will naturally be made to think about you. However, this article addresses the situation where you have not contacted us. We are disengaged from you and there is no contact between us and you. Are we thinking about you? Are we wondering how you are doing? Are we laughing at you? Are we plotting against you? Are we designing the hoover? Are we regretting our decisions? Are we comparing you to whoever we are with now and concluding we lost someone fantastic and rue our hastiness to get rid of you? Are we reflecting on the joyous days of the golden period? Are we thinking about what you are doing, where you are going and who you are with?

Your mind becomes a whirling thought engine as the questions loom and dart about your mind like swooping spirits. Why did he do this? What did I do wrong? Where has he gone? Why won’t he talk to me? Is he with someone else now? How could he treat me like this? These questions and many of a similar nature remain at the forefront of your mind. They are exhausting as you grapple to find the answers, always achieving an unsuccessful outcome because invariably you do not know who has actually disengaged from you. Your emotional thinking wants you repeatedly thinking about us, causing you to feed the addiction, causing you to lament, analyse, reflect, reminisce, ponder, scrutinise, worry and dissect.

I cast you to one side, you did not leave me and cause me to apply an Initial Grand Hoover in order to bring you back under my spell. I saw no need for you anymore and therefore I was content to throw you on the scrap  heap, broken and spent, a broken appliance left to its own considerations and dwelling heavily on this cruel treatment.

One of the questions which charges around your mind as you try to sleep is does he think about me? Do I ever feature in his thoughts? Does he think about what I am doing? Does he recall the good times?  You wonder whether I am lying on my bed in a similar state of anxiety, mulling over what has happening. Your thoughts spill and tumble and whilst you want to dispel these memories you cannot help but want to embrace them, experiencing that bitter sweet sensation of both delight and agony –  of course this is being driven by your emotional thinking which is wanting to feed your addiction to me.

You try to get into a comfortable position hoping that slumber will soon drag you into unconsciousness so that the pain will evaporate, if just for a few hours. Yet, even the place you now lie in evokes the image of you and I coupled together, wrapped up in one another as we made love through the night, or at least you felt we made love. Did we actually make love to one another? Did I really love you? You know you loved me, indeed you still do, but what of me?

Yet again a question leaps into your mind. I am everywhere. You consider whether I think about the treatment that you have received and do I feel guilty for behaving that way? Do I have a reason for hurling you to one side so callously and am I wondering whether you are all right? Your truth seeking empathic trait is being seized on and corrupted by your emotional thinking. It drives you to want answers and you are left believing that such a driver is logical and should be addressed. It keeps the thought of me in your head, going round and round, question after question, ensuring that your emotional thinking is alive and surging.

Just as you hold onto the precious memories of the golden period you wonder whether I am similarly replaying them through my mind, recalling the wonderful times, the delicious things we did together. You can summon it all in such detail. The places we went to, the other people there, what day of the week it was, even the exact date. You remember what we wore, what we ate and what was said as the memories tumble through your head. As the clock shows it is now closer to morning than it was to the evening, you wonder whether I am thinking about you in a similar fashion?

While you toss and turn in your bed which resembles a place to be endured rather than a place of comfort, I am fast asleep. From the moment my head touched the pillow I fell asleep free from thoughts about you. No imp sits on my shoulder jabbing me with a precious memory and keeping me from sleeping. Whilst you ruminate, cogitate, fathom and review, I am oblivious to everything. During my waking hours you do not invade my consciousness. There is too much to be done, too much fuel to extract as I deal with looking after and nurturing the new primary source of my fuel which replaced you. You have been deleted because you failed me (at least in my mind that is the case) and therefore you have been erased from the record. The narcissism demands that. You are of no use to me and therefore you are erased, deleted, removed and wiped away.

Truth be told it was more of an overlap with both you and her supplying me fuel until the old stale trickle was switched off and dumped. In my mind you never existed. My fixation with the new prospect and her golden, delicious, potent fuel means that everything is focussed on her. Her seduction and the maintenance of fuel dominates my mind save when I am extracting my fuel from the range of supplementary sources that I interact with throughout the day. I may drink from the mug you once bought me to recognise I support a particular football team but there is no flicker of recognition about you. I do not halt, cup in hand, halfway to my mouth and smile at that trip to the stadium when you insisted on buying half the contents in order to please me. It is just a mug to me but the tea contained in it and prepared by my new prospect is delicious and I tell her so. Her beaming smile provides me with that dollop of fuel as expected. To me it is just a mug bearing the crest of my football team. The link you had to that piece of ceramic has been severed and cast into the abyss. The narcissism demands that must be the case – your replacement governs our thoughts and actions now and therefore there is no need to be reminded of you, that is redundant and as effective and efficient machines, we reject the redundant, jettison the unnecessary and remove the failed.

I may still wear the jumper you bought me but I never consider that weekend away in the highlands when I complained about being cold so you purchased it for me. Either the thought never manifests or if it does I cast it to one aside, dismissing it and you in one fell swoop. I have no need for you now, I do not need your fuel, character traits or residual benefits as they are provided by your replacement and the other reliable members of the fuel matrix. As for control, my dismissal of you is my way of controlling you.  I may walk past someone who wears the same fragrance as you. Either I do not remember you as I smell it or if I do, I cast you aside in an instant, banishing the thought and asserting control over you through this dismissive response. Contrast this with the way you remember me when you smell my cologne and you remember me next to you and that emptiness washes over you once again. I just think that it is a pleasant scent and carry on walking by. It is as if I have pressed delete and you have been erased. You never existed, your thoughts, words and actions all melt away. Your connections to me are severed, your presence eradicated and your memory denied. I have switched off that appliance and everything associated with it has been obliterated. We do not think of you because at this point we have no need to think of you. You serve no purpose to us and therefore remembering you and I is a redundant exercise and a waste of our time and energy. You are either not thought of, or if you do manifest in our minds we quickly reject you. We must not waste anything and thus the instinctive impact of our narcissism ensures you are either not thought of or we dismiss the thought.

When we have disengaged from you and we have done so because we have a new Intimate Partner Primary Source we do not think about you. If you enter our spheres of influence by messaging us, ringing us, walking by us or even coming to see us, you can expect at best a cold and polite short moment of recognition before we move on and at worst a malign response to send you away in hurt and pain. You failed us – we no longer want or need you. You have been replaced and therefore you are stricken from our thoughts and should you ever invade our sphere of influences in another way, we maintain this rejection of you.

For some you will be thought of after we have disengaged you where you are the unfortunate recipient of a Malice Campaign, but those are rare and for the vast majority of you, once you have been disengaged from, you are disposed of and not wanted. We have no need of you, we do not need you invading our consciousness and if you do, we soon dismiss you.

However, once the new IPPS enters devaluation (and this person will – that is a guarantee – it is just a question of time) well, then you become useful to us once again and our narcissism alters the record once again. This time you will be remembered, although if truth be told you ought to prefer that you remain cast into obscurity because in all likelihood we will be coming back for you in some form of other to draw again on our investment, to seize our property once again but solely for our benefit.



181 thoughts on “Does the Narcissist Think About You Afterwards

  1. BC30 says:

    Eventually, yes. But do you care?

    Aspire to indifference.

  2. Another Cat says:

    There is a guy living just under my apartment in this very small 4 family house.

    When he sees me coming from the store or the park, he greets nicely, says something about rock n roll, apologize for playing drums sometimes (hasn’t bothered me yet) tells me how cute n sexy I look, or asks to come up to my home. I always smile and tell him I’m busy right that moment “I’m afraid it’s late, soon midnight now”

    I often wondered if he could just ask me out for coffee one day, invite me, put a little note in my mailbox (written in Copperplate, HG, haha 🙂)

    I mean if he is so keen on me, and sees I’m smiling back, talking, I live two yards above.

    So odd it occured to me only recently, that, of course, the guy probably doesn’t have any object constancy, he is just a nicely talking narcissist. He can’t help it but in his mind I only exist when he sees me on the street, he talks enthusiastically, gives strong hug, or sees my kids out playing and says hi to them.

    Otherwise we don’t exist.

    Why didn’t I think of this before. Afterall his old mother has NPD. Everybody in the neighbourhood sort of never comes to their house (why a 45 yo is living with his mother is a riddle for me), they end up avoiding her, so do I.

    They are not thinking about us.

    All memories, and what to say to gain power, pops up only when they are reminded of the individual.

    1. Bubbles says:

      Dearest Another Cat,
      He wants sex lovely one, by telling you… you look sexy’, the strong hugs …..he’s coming onto you
      You’re convenient
      It’s all about him, he wants to satisfy a need and it’s definitely not yours.
      Play aloof n cool …… put him off.
      It’s too close to home precious
      Luv Bubbles xx 😘

      1. Another Cat says:

        Bubbles thanks,
        I don’t have sex with neighbours. Rather be safe than sorry!
        Neighbour-germs… 😉

        1. Truthseeker6157 says:

          Hey Another Cat,

          Good plan. The MMRA lived in the apartment below mine. Big mistake. I had zero privacy. He knew my work schedule my social schedule and I was barely through the door from work before he would show up. It’s crazy making!


          1. Another Cat says:

            This is why my paternal grandmother never said any word to neighbours, except Goodmorning.

          2. Another Cat says:

            Oh and I am very relieved you are free of that situation now, Truthseeker 🌷

            Panopticon neighbours…. So happy he never asked me out.

          3. Truthseeker6157 says:

            Another Cat,

            Haha yep. I could feel him looking out of his window as I parked my car! I purposely never looked up as I walked across the drive to the front door.

            Thank you, that narc didn’t do me any damage. Bertha ( my Guardian Angel) fixed it that I should re locate with work. I ended it and essentially went No Contact through sheer coincidence.

            I loved that old house and my old apartment with draughty windows and rubbish shower that I had to run around in to get wet. I didn’t realise I was kind of spoiling it for myself when I took up with him.

            Your grandma sounds like a sensible lady!


        2. Bubbles says:

          Dearest Another Cat,
          Smart kitty has claws 😸
          Luv Bubbles xx 😘

  3. cathy says:

    The most bizarre thing about all of our experiences is that the NARC mirrors us….we are experiencing the actual love we are capable of giving during the Narc’s Love Bombing stage…WE are creating what we want and the Narc is graciously delivering with strings attached of course……..we just are doing it with individuals that are not able to honestly give us what we truly deserve. We DO NOT HAVE TO align ourselves with the Narc….easier said than done. I know, I will tell you having all of this information is great but if I am not going to do anything with it, it’s useless. Knowing is nothing without doing….we are armed with info, but until we finally reach the point were WE can no longer accept things as they are, (hitting rock bottom) we will remain in these very unhealthy entanglements

    1. lickemtomorrow says:

      The same thought occurred to me on this thread about hitting rock bottom. Leigh referred to the drug addict and compared the experience, in terms of people giving good advice but the addict’s inability to take it. This would be my take on the situation, too. There has to come a breaking point where we choose to do what needs to be done, otherwise we won’t have the willpower to see our decision through. That doesn’t mean people shouldn’t point out the need to do things differently and make that choice. That’s the point at which the information provided becomes invaluable. But the moment for truly grasping it, I think, is the moment we decide it is our only choice.

  4. Empath007 says:

    This ability to cast everything aside – even if a memory does start to happen- would this be compartmentalizations?

    1. Empath007 says:

      Let me re phrase – would this ability to compartmentalize thoughts be considered disassociation ?

    2. HG Tudor says:

      Do you mean doing this consciously or unconsciously?

      1. Empath007 says:

        Not quite, I assume to process is unconscious.

        Disassociation occurs as a defence mechanism – usually after a traumatic event (but not always). Technically it can occur at any point in someone’s life but with a narcissist (if it’s related) I assume it would begin in childhood.

        It is a disconnect between a persons thoughts, sensory experience and personal history. It can range from a mild sense of detachment to a more severe disconnect with reality. Dissasociative amnesia is characterized by forgetting personal information and memories of events.

        When I read this article and you say “the narcissism won’t allow the memory” – it must be pushed aside – it makes me think of this.

        Whatever the case – it’s clear casting aside memories is a coping mechanism for the narcissit. Which makes being cast aside feel a whole lot less personal. They literally CANT bring themselves to really feel anything – if they do – they won’t be able to handle those feelings. Him not remembering me is not personal – it’s essential to his survivial.

        Me constantly thinking of him I believe is more related to having kept a sphere of influence open in my life – in my case my work place and mutual friends. I have an addiction and my addiction is constantly triggered by cues in my environment (namely the open sphere of influence) which hinder my recovery – hence why proper no contact is imperative to the victim.

        This also helps me cope – because my feelings don’t have much to do with real love either. More so my addicition. And it’s also not personal – it could have been him – or ANY other narcissist that can trigger my addicition. Meaning he’s not special – he’s just a weakness of mine.

        These are the thoughts running through my mind as I read this article. And it’s very helpful in helping me cope.

        Thanks HG

        1. A Victor says:

          Empath007, lots of interesting thoughts in your comment, thank you for posting it. “He’s not special, he’s just a weakness of mine.” -really resonates.

  5. Duchessbea says:

    Dearest Bubbles,
    Just read your post from the 13th Aug., on this thread. Very sorry that you were treated like that. You deserved so much better. You are one of the loveliest, sweetest and most cheerful people on this blog, and you deserve to be treated like a Queen.
    I am so glad for you that you have left him and are doing so much better.
    Wishing you well and hope you are keeping well.

    1. Bubbles says:

      Dearest Duchessbea,
      You are too kind dear lovely ….. thank you so wholeheartedly Duchess.
      It was what it was and I didn’t know any better at the time, soooooo naive, but I knew deep down it wasn’t right.
      I’ve been thru a bit in my time, but I could never pin point what it was and there were questions galore I could never get answers to
      Mr Bubbles treats me like a Queen and has done so ever since I’ve known him.
      I’ve always believed in ‘optimism’ no matter what
      If I can impart a small amount of that, then that’s a good thing, yes ?
      I really appreciate your beautiful words and yes, I’m personally, finally at last, in a good place, apart from a certain challenge, hiccup or three
      It can be done Duchess and I truly wish you and everyone here the same
      Luv Bubbles xx 😘

      1. Duchessbea says:

        Dearest Bubbles,
        Thank you for your lovely message. I’m delighted to hear how Mr. Bubbles treats you like a Queen. Mr. Bubbles sounds like a true gentleman.
        Much Love and Hugs.

        1. Bubbles says:

          Dearest Duchessbea,
          We go back a loooooooog time, we know each other inside out. He’s old school gentleman, that’s what makes him extra special.
          We tied the knot late in life and had kids late as well…. who it can’t be done 🤣
          Thank you Duchess, hugs to you to precious
          Luv Bubbles xx 😘

          1. Bubbles says:

            Dearest Duchessbea,
            Insert *said

          2. Duchessbea says:

            Dearest Bubbles,
            You are a very lovely, lucky lady. Mr. Bubbles sounds lovely. Gentleman.
            Very True everything you have said.
            Much Love and Hugs,

      2. NarcAngel says:

        To think that if you had not freed yourself from the first narcissist that there would be no Mr (Awesome) Bubbles and your happiness together all these years.

        1. Bubbles says:

          Dearest NarcAngel,
          I actually acted on my gut feeling back then, who would’ve thought ?
          Thankfully we didn’t have sex snd have kids, it all turned out as it was meant to be !
          Luv Bubbles xx 😘

  6. Duchessbea says:

    I read a post of yours from August 11th on this thread, where you refer to being surrounded by narcissists your whole life and that you are afraid that if your addiction isn’t lowered you will allow them back into your life.
    When HG says GOSO and NC he says this for good reason so that you will not revert to going back to the toxic people in your life. You have to cut them out of your life. Your husband, and anyone else have to go. You deserve better Leigh. I think you are blaming yourself and being to hard on yourself for allowing these people into your life. You are not to blame Leigh. These people are chameleons. They will be who you are looking for and then slowly but surely they will reveal themselves for who they really are. You are not to blame for the way they have behaved, lied, and anything and everything else that they have done, none of that is your fault. Yes, you have been surrounded by toxic people for almost 50 years but you have now gotten excellent advice and help from HG that no therapist could ever have provided to you. HG, has effectively removed your rose coloured glasses and revealed to you who you have been surrounded by all these years. Don’t ever blame yourself for these people being in your life.
    You very kindly trusted people that did not deserve your trust or friendship. Don’t ever blame yourself for that. Be very careful giving your trust out to people. Hold back. If someone feels off to you or you don’t feel comfortable with that person, Leave. Get out and stay out. You don’t have to stay.
    Don’t ever be afraid of meeting new people for fear they could be narcissists. Yes, some you will meet will be and others you will meet won’t be. You know some of the/a good number of the signs to look out for. You will recognise the giant Red Flags of their behaviour and when you do, politely excuse yourself and Go. You don’t need or want toxic people in your life any longer. Leigh you deserve better.
    You need to have much more self belief in yourself to know that YES, you can do this and YES, you will do this.
    I don’t think it is so much the addiction you are afraid of, but more your attraction to toxic behaviours and toxic people. That is because you have had them in your life for almost 50 years. Your addiction isn’t so much the narcissist but rather their toxic behaviour. You are so used to it. Keeping the toxic people and their toxic behaviour in your life is the addiction that you need to break and end. You can do this. HG has provided you with the tools and excellent advice on how to address this. You just have to take that first step on the ladder to make it your reality. It is not going to be easy, it is going to be very hard to start with, but if you keep working at it everyday, and we are all here to support you, you will eventually achieve what it is that you are looking for, and yes you can do this on your own. You can GOSO and be happy and achieve the life that you want to live.
    The only person that can do this for you Leigh, is you. We are all here to help you every step of the way.
    The first step on the ladder Leigh is to believe in yourself to do it. After that it will get easier and you can achieve what you want.

    1. wildviolet22 says:

      Regarding being addicted to the toxic behaviors and not the person..

      Just some thoughts and comments on that part, not sure if anyone else relates. But I’m in my 40s, and started going to therapy in my 20s, for being raised in a toxic, dysfunctional environment, with physical & emotional abuse and neglect, with basically just my basic needs met. Not continuously since that time, but basically a ton of therapy over the years, and I’ve done a lot of reading on my own too, including info in CPTSD & trauma bonding.

      When I was younger I did get mixed up with people who were bad news, including substance abusers, and I did get myself out of those situations, and it’s been a long time since I’ve had anything like that in my life. I think I’ve gotten good at sniffing people out and avoiding relationships like that now, in the first place. I have zero desire to have that in my life.

      Except, I have such a soft spot for my person, I can’t even dip one little toe in, because it doesn’t matter how much time had passed, the ET soars like crazy and I feel like I’m right back to where I started. Although I’ve been here for about a year & a half, I have lapsed since I’ve been here, and have found that once you are out, you really need to follow through on that, though getting the ET back under control after lapsing didn’t take as long as the first time around. But I don’t know what it is, it really is just him. Maybe because we’ve known each other for 25 years and there’s such a history there or something. But I imagine I am like an alcoholic in recovery, who has to spend consistent and vigilant energy on no contact of any kind. This really is cunning, baffling and powerful, and for some reason it just happens with him..

      1. Duchessbea says:

        WildViolet22, The way you have said it, is the best way I have seen it described.

      2. WiserNow says:


        From what you have said, it sounds like you have a strong internal attachment or bond to this person that is very difficult to detach your thoughts and emotions from. I have had this kind of strong feeling too. You may have ‘internalised’ this person after knowing them for such a long time. Now, that ‘internal’ image is very difficult to remove.

        A while back I did some reading about object relations theory. You may have come across this too? Briefly, an ‘object’ is like an internal image a person has about someone else and the person carries this image in their subconscious. When a baby develops a healthy bond with their primary caregiver, the subconscious internal ‘object’ or image the baby forms enables the baby to develop a healthy image of its own ‘self’ too. This internal image of the ‘self’ is carried forward by the baby as it grows into an adult.

        When a baby has an unhealthy bond with a caregiver, the theory goes that the baby’s own sense of ‘self’ is damaged or not properly defined. Then in adulthood, the sense of self along with internal image of the ‘other’ person the now-adult attaches to are not quite right.

        In my case, I found it difficult to feel like I was self-directed. It felt like I needed to have an internal picture of someone else with me to be able to motivate myself to do something when I was by myself.

        This improved when I focused on developing a sense of internal ‘self’. It was a process of being alone and concentrating on my own thoughts/emotions/moods/values and being mindful and aware. It was sometimes difficult to keep working on this and it took some time, however, I kept doing it and concentrating on it, and it became easier. Now it feels like there is only me – without the internal image of anyone else – who I am thinking about.

        Not sure if that sounds the same as what you are experiencing. I hope that helps in some way 🙂

      3. Truthseeker6157 says:


        Do you think it is the person himself that you have a weakness for? Or, was it what this person represented at that point in your life?

        1. wildviolet22 says:


          I think it might be a little of both?

          When I’m away from him with no contact, I can see his behaviors for what they are, as explained here by HG (he really isn’t as nice as he was when we were younger- I do recall he used to be kinder before his substance abuse days- and if he is now, it’s a temporary state). When I have contact with him of any kind, the ET soars really hard and fast, and I just want to drop everything and go fuse myself to him. But I know he’s bad news so I force myself to get back on the no contact wagon.

          At various times over the years, I’ve distanced myself from him, and he’s also been the one to disappear on me, so in those times I had no choice. I don’t know, I don’t think that really answers your question and honestly I’m not so sure myself (I’ve thought about it a lot over the years). I just know I have to stay away from him :(. Luckily we aren’t in the same state anymore so it’s a matter of me being vigilant..

          1. Truthseeker6157 says:


            It does answer my question. Xx

            When you are in No Contact due to him or you, your ET falls and you can see him for who he is. You see the behaviours and understand what they are because you have learned about them here.

            Then there is some form of contact and that flutter arrives instantly and without warning as your ET shoots up again and it becomes harder to apply the logic. You just feel the emotion and the ‘I want’.

            Sometimes I think we associate the arrival of the narc with something that is lacking in our lives. So for example, my mum married my dad quite young. She had a horrible childhood and then my dad came along. Really, he rescued her. She was lucky, my dad was a good guy. If he had been a narc though and they had had a couple of good years before a gradual devaluation set in, it’s likely she would still have seen him as a rescuer. That’s what he would represent.

            I wondered if there wasn’t an element of that in play. Simply because you know him from being young. That’s a very personal question, so I’m not looking for an answer. That’s kind of what I meant by him representing something at a certain time.

            The online narc definitely represented something to me. It took me a long time to recognise what was down to the person himself and how much of it was down to him representing something I needed at that particular point in my life. I think it’s really difficult for us to separate the two things out. Or rather, I found it difficult!


        2. wildviolet22 says:


          Thank you, that makes a lot of sense, and is very helpful.

          1. Truthseeker6157 says:


            You’re welcome. Xx

        3. Leigh says:

          This is an interesting conversation. Is it the person or what they represent? I actually think it could be either or both. I also agree with you TS that there’s something lacking in our lives and that’s why we allow the narcissist in. My father left when I was 14 and then 6 months later, I met my narc husband. At the time, I definitely thought he was rescuing me. What’s interesting is my narc husband is just like my narc mother. So it felt like home. In my husband and my mother’s case, I’m not addicted to them. I’m addicted to the empathic traits it brings out in me. Here’s the thing, I think the more empathic traits a narc brings out in you, the more addicted you become. I think different narcs bring out different traits. My narc husband does not bring out the love devotee trait in me, at all. Not even a little bit. Then there was workplace narc. He really brought out a lot of my empathic traits including love devotee. I didn’t even know that existed in me until I met workplace narc. Workplace narc also came at a time when I was longing for something more. That could also be why the addiction was so heightened. So now to ask again, is it the person or what they represent? For me, its definitely both.

          1. Truthseeker6157 says:

            Hey Leigh,

            I think there must be lots of things in play in various relationships. I totally get what you mean with your husband versus workplace narc. I was similar with the online narc and MMRA. Different types of narcissists likely play to different traits emotions and behaviours also. Partly why different narcs naturally prefer different empaths.

            Timing for me is a big influence. Are we our usual selves or are we at a low ebb? I firmly believe the latter messes with ET making ensnarement far easier. When we are happier / more content in ourselves we likely have more resistance, would spot red flags more easily etc.

            When it comes to post escape and shedding the narc I think the loss of them is more to do with the loss of what they represented, the loss of what you had hoped the relationship might become, loss of memories and of time even. It isn’t just the loss of the person himself. I agree totally that we do feel most ourselves with the narc due to our empathic traits being in full flow. I actually felt like a far nicer person when my ET was high. Gentler I suppose, more in tune with others. Logically, that can’t be true, I am my traits plus life experience, smarts, etc etc. So I am largely the same now as I was then but I did feel different when my ET was high. There were positives to it, just not worth the cloudiness and sadness that went along with them.

            Interesting you had similar thoughts. Xx

          2. Leigh says:

            TS, so much of what you said I totally agree with. When happier and more content, our resistance is definitely higher. When I was raising my babies and spending time with them, I was happy and content. Workplace narc happened when my children stopped needing me as much.

            As for feeling like a nicer, gentler person when ET is high. I hadn’t thought of that but it was definitely true when my ET was heightened because of workplace narc. When it was good, I was happy so I was nicer. With my husband my ET can skyrocket and I don’t feel nicer and definitely not gentler either. I guess whether we are in the golden period or devaluation will make a difference too.

            Losing what they represented is definitely more difficult than actually losing them. Especially once you learn that they are hollow.

          3. Leigh says:

            TS, I wanted to mention something else. The loss of Workplace narc was definitely about what be represented. He was my escape from my reality. He was also something just for me. Finally something for me. Not for my husband, mother, children, friends, family or work. Just for me. That was hard when I had to give that up.

          4. Truthseeker6157 says:


            When I think about other romantic relationships I’ve had with non narcs or even friendships (because I’ve moved around so much) I think we experience similar sentiments. Often it’s not simply the person. There are associations to a place or a group of people I hung out with for example. The difference with the narcissist is the intensity of the sentiments and I think a lot of that is heightened ET, plus ever presence. So whilst you do not feel love for your husband compared to the work narc, there are still other binders that are associated. This might be partly why you struggle to leave. It’s not the person, it’s the ‘everything else’.

            I think you’re doing great. Keep pushing yourself to the next step. Next lawyer meeting, next apartment viewing, paperwork organisation etc, and be proud of yourself for completing each step.


          5. Leigh says:

            Thats exactly it TS, it’s the everything else. I’ve been detaching myself from the everything else (family & friends). Its the only way to do it.

          6. NarcAngel says:

            Do you think Workplace narc simply represented hope in the form of from freedom your husband in having “someplace to go”(emotionally and possibly physically since that has been a concern in your leaving) and less to do with being a love devotee?

            Just something to consider. Don’t feel a need to reply.

          7. Leigh says:

            NA, no he didn’t represent freedom or giving me somewhere to go. Workplace Narc is married with two children and I knew he wouldn’t leave his family. He represented something that was just for me and no one else. He was my Dirty Little Secret.

      4. A Victor says:

        WildViolet, thank you for sharing that, it is interesting. I don’t know if I would experience this with my 2nd ex, I’ve not seen him since right after he left, 11 years ago. But my 1st ex, I’m thinking more all the time is a narcissist, and I did notice fluttering, not the last time I saw him but the time prior to that. It surprised me and made me realize I needed to be careful. I was quite new here then. Both of my exes are in poor health which helps me to dismiss any thoughts of anything happening anyway. But I appreciate you sharing your experience, it is a warning also.

        1. Pera says:

          A Victor- yeah, it’s like you think you are fine because you feel fine, and so much time has passed. Then if there is contact, everything comes flooding back, and you realize why it’s so important to keep the no contact going at all costs.

          My first boyfriend is the only other person who I remember this type of thing happening with. We were together ages 17-20, and it was a bad break up. It took me a long time to get over it, and he ended up marrying and having kids with someone else, so that pretty much sealed a final “end” for me anyways. I don’t think he was a narc, but he was another one who probably presented that way at the time, due to all of the partying & drug use back then.

          I knew a lot of people like that in the 90s, quite a few people (including a few ex’s, and a sibling) who went on to develop addictions to various drugs and alcohol, and more than a few who died at some point from overdoses or by suicide. I was lucky I wasn’t one of them. Watching what was going on around me, I was scared straight by my mid 20s or so, and don’t participate in any of that.

          Maybe that’s partially what my person represents. Lost youth and opportunities, and who we were and could have been if things had been different. It’s just baffling to me because I seem to have developed a radar over the years, and have cut people out of my life for a lot less than what I’ve put up with from him, because I have no tolerance for certain behaviors- except when it comes to him :/.

          Thank you for sharing your story too. I do a lot of reading here, including the comments section. Very helpful, it’s kept me going, from caving, on numerous occasions.

          1. A Victor says:

            Hi Pera, is that you WildViolet? Yes, that addiction never completely goes away I guess. And I do think that I am drawn to things from my youth, things that “take me back”. So a first boyfriend, who is now my first ex, really could likely do that for me also. And I also am quick to cut out women narcs, I think my radar for them is very good and I don’t like them. But he’s still not horrible, in my mind. I have to work at remembering why I divorced him!

            Yes, the comments here are very interesting and they have helped me immensely also.

        2. Leigh says:

          I’m just curious AV. How do you feel about them being in poor health? You don’t have to answer that, I’m just curious.

          1. A Victor says:

            Leigh, I don’t mind answering. I have mixed feelings, I am sad for them on one hand, they are not old and they’ve both been ill for a couple of decades. On the other hand, some of their narc-y behavior might be minimized as a result, a good thing. Over-all it doesn’t affect me much, I’m glad they’re not my problem.

  7. Duchessbea says:

    The easiest thing in the world is for everyone to give advice and expect the person receiving the advice to follow it. Many people on here have given you excellent advice. But the old saying of ‘it is easy to say but hard to do’ very much can be applied here. I think from reading your comments, and you have been so genuine, open and honest the one thing that very much stood out to me, I don’t know if anyone else found the same, but I felt that there is a sense of fear from you towards leaving everything you know for the unknown. You are set in your ways and have been for a long time. You have come to the realisation of what you have been with and you want to leave and you want change. But subconsciously, you could be afraid to do it.
    That is very understandable. You can only do what you feel comfortable doing and what you feel is right for you to do.
    What I would suggest, is to get away for a while on your own. Away from everything you know and just spend some time with you. No outside influences, or best friends giving you advice, or even reading HG. Just spend some time alone with you and really look deep within and decide what it is that you want, and how you very much want to go about doing that.
    Everyone here has given great advice, and I’m sure your best friends have aswell. But they are not in your shoes and don’t live your everyday life. Only you can decide what is right for you and when it is right for you to do it. I sense that you are struggling very much at the moment and that you feel a huge weight on your shoulders. My heart goes out to you because it takes a lot of strength to do what you want to do, but even more so is finding the courage to know that you can do it. You have a lot on your plate. Your daughter is on your mind, you want to do the right thing by her, your husband, you want to get out and live your best life but at the same time what is stopping you, is all the history attached to your life at the moment. You know that to walk away from that means leaving everything you know and are used to. That is okay to be hesitant and fearful of the unknown, but at the same time to look at it from another perspective, you have some amazing memories that are your memories and they will always be with you.
    You are looking for and wanting closure. We all know you will never get closure in any shape or form from a narcissist. I think that is why you wanted to write about everything. I think to get perspective of everything in your life so far, but more importantly to give closure to yourself. I agree with everything HG said when he told you not to do that as it was very clear your ET was in a heightened state and it would not have been the right time to do something like that as you would just undo all the work you have done and achieved with HG. On the other hand, you still need closure on that part of your life in order for you to be able to in a way, close the book on that chapter of your life.
    The best advice that I can give you, alongside HG and everyone else here is that, you will only be able to move on properly when you come to terms with who you have been married to and accept that, and only then can you give closure to yourself and be able to move on to your next chapter in your life.
    You deserve to be happy Leigh. You deserve to live your best life and be the best person that you can be.
    I wish you well with everything that you decide Leigh, and whatever you decide to be the best thing for you to do, I hope it all goes very well for you.
    I don’t mean for this post to be hurtful towards you in any way and I am not sending it to be insulting or offending towards you and if you feel that, I apologise as it is not meant in that way. I am just sending it to you because having read all your posts, I see that you are conflicted and I don’t like to see you that way and I hope this helps you out in some small way.
    Sending you much Love and Hugs.

    1. HG Tudor says:

      No, this will just resulting further paralysis and prevarication. You know what is required, you either do it or you do not. If you do it, you progress to freedom, if you do not, you will remain stuck.

      1. Duchessbea says:

        HG, I agree with you 100%, but in order for Leigh to achieve this, her ET would have to be very much lowered. A heightened ET interferes with and very much lowers LT which in turn causes the ‘rut’ thinking. Having read Leigh’s posts, her ET appears to be very much raised and until this lowers to help her process her thoughts more clearly, it will be very hard for her to accept closure on this chapter in her life. I very much hope Leigh does what is right for her, and takes your advice and does what is required. It is very clear that she wants to leave, but she is just not ready to yet. But, from an empathic point of view, it appears she might have a little bit more work to do to be comfortable with herself and with the choice that she makes before she feels she is ready to go.

        1. HG Tudor says:

          I have already addressed this. By staying her ET will not be lowered, she has to go and then it will be lowered. She knows what she has to do, she has now to do it.

          She is ready. She knows, therefore she must go. There is no more work to be done to “become comfortable” that will not happen and thinking it will, will only keep her stuck.

          It is time to act.

          1. NarcAngel says:

            I want you to know that this is not specific to you (there have been others in your situation), but a question that has formed over both previous cases on the blog and my observation of this thread.

            Have you/do you sometimes find it to be the case that all of the continued validation, support, and understanding from others (understandable and well meaning) can provide just enough of a letting off of a pressure valve for a target/victim to feel acknowledged from the outside, and has them (subconsciously) avoid action and allows them to stay? That they feel supported (heard and understood) enough by others to make the ongoing interaction with the narcissist bearable?

          2. HG Tudor says:

            The accompanying rise in ET caused by repeatedly talking about the narcissist without doing anything about and remaining in the ensnarement, creates a false sensation of being able to manage the situation or that it feels somewhat more bearable and of course this then prevents the application of logic by getting out and staying out.

          3. JB says:

            I’m actually quite envious of this particular trait of yours, HG. So clear cut, so black and white (“It is time to act”)! And of course, you are right. Everything you say here makes logical sense. The number of times in life I know exactly what I need to do, yet something stops me. The head knows exactly what to do, but the heart says something completely different, and stops me. I guess that is the ET kicking in. And/or fear, and lots of it! So many of us live our lives paralysed by fear, and sometimes we don’t even know what it is that we are actually afraid of.

            Leigh, I feel for you so much. This can’t be easy for you at all. I want to say that I wish that one day soon you will feel strong enough to then make the break and leave, but I guess what HG is saying is that that won’t happen whilst you are still there, and that you need to make the break first in order to start to feel stronger. Whatever you do do, we are all here for you xx

          4. HG Tudor says:

            You are correct. It is this perspective that drives my effectiveness.

          5. Leigh says:

            Mr. Tudor, NA & JB, yes its time to act. Yes i did have a false belief that it was bearable and that I was managing. Then I got the news that my daughter is a narcissist and everything changed.

            I called a lawyer on Friday and got some advice. I took a day this week and will be looking at apartments.

            The news of my daughter devastated me. I needed time to adjust.

          6. HG Tudor says:

            Constructive steps, well done.

          7. wildviolet22 says:

            Regarding needing to know why (and I’m not trying to influence you Leigh, just something I’ve thought about before too and I have some thoughts on that)..

            Even with things like substance abuse/ alcoholism, the bottom line is, a person gets addicted because these things can be highly addictive. You drink because you are an alcoholic, you shoot up because you are a heroin addict.

            Some people, after a period of abstinence and stability, do try to get at the “why’s”. Other people find that to be too triggering (not everyone, if there was a history of abuse and trauma, benefits from “time traveling” back into those feeing states), and focus instead on staying abstinent, and find it’s beneficial to stay present/ in the moment on a day to day basis (mindfulness, DBT, things like that).

            Anyways, just some thoughts on that. Maybe the “why’s” will come later, and maybe that will help, but I personally believe getting and staying abstinent is the most important thing, otherwise you’re always looping around in some part of the cycle.

          8. HG Tudor says:

            Good observation. Often ET cons people into wanting to understand the whys when they’re not ready to absorb and accept the explanation so they keep trying to understand which maintains ET, which stops them absorbing so they keep trying to understand and they are stuck on the wheel of misery. Some people have to realise “Now is not the time to address why but rather it is necessary to just know and go”and this then reduces ET and THEN they find they understand because they’ve made room through lowered ET for the logic to stick.

          9. Empath007 says:

            I definitely agree we need to leave to lower our ET.

            Leigh – I am curious what addictive qualities about your relationship make you stay – the way you speak of your husband it doesn’t seem like there is much feeling on your part of any kind… is the sex addictive ? Is the hot and cold cycle addictive ? What is it about him ?

            I think you just truly believe your life can not be any different because it’s been your life for 36 years… obviously you’re a person who values routine – and predictibablty. And that’s ok.

            Also – sometimes people talk about leaving like it solves ALL problems. Which is not always the case. Leaving can cause all kinds of new drama, between family members, friends etc. It can cause fincial hardship and changing of quality of life. It can cause NEW narcissits to come into the picture – if you or your husband end up with a new narc they could try and squander your children’s inheritance. Causing even more drama ! So leaving isn’t always some dream to greener grass on the other side.

            So if your fear of those changes are greater then the fear of staying – that’s OK too Leigh – own it. But if you choose to stay you also have to choose to stop “wallowing” as HG put it and live your life as best you can with your decision. I say that because it will benefit your own happiness – not because I don’t want to hear you talk about it. Sharing your story is important and I think it’s good to share. But for you health and happiness – accept that you’re staying – and find a way to be content.

          10. Leigh says:

            Empath007, what are the addictive qualities about the relationship that make me stay? I’ve listened to the addiction package and I think its because being with my husband and other narcs allows me to tap into my empathic traits to the fullest. There really isn’t anything positive about the relationship. They need me and helping them feeds my addiction to help even if it harms me.

            As for making a decision, I did decide to stay. As for wallowing, I agree I have no right to wallow if I decided to stay. This is all happening now because of the news about my daughter. Mr. Tudor has confirmed that she is a narcissist. Now I’m rethinking why I stayed. As far as I’m concerned he no longer deserves my empathic traits. That’s why its time for me to leave.

            That’s why my emotional thinking is so high right. Its conning me & making excuses to stay ensnared. Plus this news about my daughter has broke me a little bit and I’m sure that’s raising my emotional thinking as well.

          11. HG Tudor says:

            You are starting to apply logic. Good. Now act on it.

          12. A Victor says:

            Hi Leigh, for me it was all the damn guilt, I mean I married him, it was all the years invested, it was the kids, it was let’s give it one more go, it was……….ultimately, he made the decision in my case, and I don’t know if I would’ve been able to, I get it. But, I also know that I have been 100% better off since he left. Literally, every. single. area. of my life is better. Every one of them. Every. Single. One. It is a leap of faith on your part, and scary, but if it’s what you believe to be best, you can do it. You can. I absolutely know you can.

          13. WhoCares says:

            “Some people have to realise “Now is not the time to address why but rather it is necessary to just know and go”and this then reduces ET and THEN they find they understand because they’ve made room through lowered ET for the logic to stick.”

            This makes SO much sense HG. And I see it now, in my experience – the *during* entanglement and the *after* entanglement.

          14. HG Tudor says:

            Correct. People get conned by their ET corrupting their truth seeker trait into thinking they need to know and understand to move forward, but they fail to realise they keep trying to understand but do not and thus they need to stop trying to understand and just apply NC. Thereafter the insight will come because the ET will always go down when total NC is implemented.

          15. JB says:

            Yes I can see how that would make you more effective, HG.

          16. Truthseeker6157 says:


            I’m so pleased you are taking advice and looking at apartments.

            Taking legal advice is a must and being certain of your position should alleviate some of the fear about the process itself.

            A lovely little apartment to call YOUR own. To make it just how YOU want it over time. How lovely. Xx

          17. Leigh says:

            TS. I know. I’m trying to picture myself in a quaint little one bedroom apartment, maybe even near the water. I’m sitting outside, drinking my coffee with the sun in my face and my kitty cat next to me.

          18. Truthseeker6157 says:

            There you go Leigh x Focus on the other side. Think about how life would look, how you would feel in that apartment. Focus there and keep focussing there.

            You’ll know when you find the right place, it might not be perfect but it’ll be yours. When you get that flutter, and you can see yourself unlocking the door and walking in after work, just jump. Get it, say yes there and then! Then you’re already on your way, you’re out.


          19. Leigh says:

            Think about how I would feel in the apartment… blissful. Thats its TS! I will concentrate on that feeling. Thank you!

      2. mosckerr says:

        To Govern is to Lie

        The culture among Western Goyim civilizations, the Government rules. Rulership, defined as people within the land exist as subjects not citizens. Foreign Policy stands upon the foundation of deception. The culture among Western Goyim civilizations, Foreign Policy takes precedence and priority over domestic policy and issues. How much more so then that the “subjects” within the Homeland must passively sit like a poodle on the lap. Domestic turmoil show anarchy and chaos to Foreign Governments.

        The culture among Western Goyim civilizations, Foreign Policy takes precedence and priority over domestic ruled subjects. As deception serves as the foundation of Foreign Policy … how much more so deception rules the policy of the Ruling Government unto its poodle subjects.

        Consequently, the outcome of this union which prioritizes Foreign Policy over Domestic servant poodle populations. The culture among Western Goyim civilizations, to impose crushing taxes upon the servant poodle populations. Government Foreign Policy has almost zero accountability. Government bureaucrats rule with impunity. Laws coast through Congress, written by Corporate Lobbies. All domestic poodle society dominated by the products which the Corporate Monopolies control. The market places, all News, entertainment, food, movies, television, and most important Government.

        A man stood before an American court and got acquitted of killing two and injuring another US Citizen. This abortion of justice, the ruled domestic poodle accepts this horrid abuse, and still wags its little fluff ball tail. Illegal aliens enjoy the “identical” Bill of Rights – parts of the US Constitution – as do the subject domestic poodle populations. Guns kill. No guilty criminals. Except when US Courts place millions of Blacks into commercial profit prison gulags.

        The purpose of Government:: to keep the sealed lid upon the domestic pressure cooker, so that this lid does not fly off and the Government burnt script. Government bureaucrats as the top of the ponzi scheme pyramid:: their job – to do what ever required to pacify social unrest. Justice: the compensation to persons who suffer damages, either intentionally or accidentally inflicted, that the person guilty for causing the damages has to pay fair restitution to the victim(s). Justice means nothing to non elected bureaucrats who have no public accountability even though they enforce police power over the governed poodle populations.

        LeftRight —- LiberalConservative —– DemocratRepublic —– labels have form but no substance. Both Democrat and Republican Presidents carried out the illegal invasion of Vietnam by the United States. The interests of the State, as determined by the Government, they determine how the Government spends the taxed poodle populations — their hard earned money and even their lives.

        Democracy exists as a lie. The Founding Fathers established a Republic NOT a Democracy. The Electoral College determines who rules the White House, NOT the electorate majority. America has existed as a Republic throughout its history as an Independent Nation. The Founding Fathers permitted only White land owners the Right to Vote.

    2. Leigh says:

      Thank you Duchessbea, you didn’t offend me. I found your words soothing. I know that what Mr. Tudor is saying is logical. It makes absolute sense. You stay, you remain stuck. You leave, you achieve freedom. I’d have to leave everyone. That’s what scares me. Even my best friend is a narcissist. When I leave, I have to do it alone. I need to prepare myself for that.

      I have been honest and maybe I was too honest. I think I need to stop talking about this now. I want to turn of all the noise. Plus, I’m still trying to process the news of my daughter.

      Thank you everyone for all your advice and kind words. I do appreciate it.

      1. Witch says:


        I have this compulsive hair pulling disorder called trichotillomania. I thought I will never overcome it, until I read a comment from someone else who had it who said “the reason why you’re still pulling is because you believe that you need it. There was a time in your life when you didn’t pull and you can get that person back again.” (Something a long those lines.)
        I realised that I continued to pull because I really did believe that I needed it to cope. Now I haven’t pulled for a few months (I think.)
        You do not NEED those narcissists.
        “Alone” is also a state of mind. You’re not alone. Many of us here have had to grieve the loss of several narcissists.
        Believe me there will always be someone who loves you, you do not need the narcissists.
        There’s always the opportunity to make better friends.
        Change doesn’t have to come all at once. Start with your husband.

        1. A Victor says:

          @Witch, awesome post, I needed that too, we are not alone. Thank you.

          1. Eternity says:

            A Victor , We are here for each other! You really need to put yourself in the other person’s shoes to understand. I completely feel all of these emotions in all the comments I have read for the past 2 years being on the this blog . I have come a long way in my life. Found my own place, my new job, and my sanity all because of this blog ! I am so grateful! I am divorced after 24 years and I was in Leigh’s shoes 2 years ago to be exact . I understand and feel what she is feeling. We just need to keep giving our advice to one another and move forward.

          2. Asp Emp says:

            Eternity, that is such an inspiring comment, RE: understanding others and your words about your experiences and leaving after 24 years will assist others who may struggle to see that they can achieve what you have done. Thank you for sharing that.

          3. Eternity says:

            Awww thank you so much Asp Emp. I don’t mind sharing my experience. I love to help If I can. I just want people to know that we are obviously not alone in these situations. I strongly believe there is hope for the future for each and every single one of us out there ! ❤

          4. A Victor says:

            Eternity, I had not realized your escape and new life were so recent! Thank you for sharing that though I think I’ve seen it before but didn’t grasp it.

          5. Eternity says:

            A Victor, yes pretty recent about 9 months now

          6. A Victor says:

            Oh, I thought it was 2 years! 9 months is not even as long as I’ve been here! How did that happen? You were the first person that spoke to me, so it was early on…? Did you leave him after you’d been here for a while?

          7. Eternity says:

            A Victor, I have been living on my own for 9 months now. Yes, I did leave him when I was on the blog. I have been on the blog for 2 years.

          8. A Victor says:

            Eternity, I am sorry I didn’t realize this before, how recent it is for you. You are still settling from your escape then, does he know where you are?

          9. Eternity says:

            A Victor , yes he definitely knows where I am he has to we have kids. I am fantastic and divorced! I am very settled. Thank you for asking you are so sweet !

          10. A Victor says:

            Eternity, you are the sweet one!! Or, since we are heart sister’s maybe we can both be sweet! Thank you, your comment made my day!

          11. Eternity says:

            A Victor,I just saw you comment I an running around with a chickens head cut off. Your comment made my day also! Hugs

        2. Leigh says:

          Witch, thank you for sharing this piece of your story. I know it’s time for me to stop pulling as well.

        3. Asp Emp says:

          Witch, thank you for sharing something so personal. It is psychological – yet the need to be able to seek the ’cause and effect’, understand that and then re-process the thinking patterns. Good to read that you may not have done it for some time – when you are consciously aware. I used to bite my nails (from a very young age), stopped it a few years ago, I don’t any more. Good words of encouragement to Leigh 🙂

        4. Witch says:

          I’m happy to hear my comment was helpful to several people.
          We need to start placing higher value on our natural empathetic gifts and living by the principle “whatever is taken is owed”

          Leigh keep telling yourself you do not need your husband, he needs you, never forget you have the power to give and to take away and he has taken more than enough, he is in debt to you, you do not owe him anything. You get to decide when this tyranny ends.

      2. Karen says:

        I slipped during NC thinking I needed to understand as well. Mine texted asking me to call him. I didn’t reply for a week until I was being bombarded & my social media accounts were locked from him changing my passwords somehow. I agreed to let him call me & for 3 wks he had an excuse on the day of the call as to why he had to push it/he’d ghost me & not call during the 2 hour time frame. Today I said no more & he messaged saying I was crazy & he asked me to leave him alone. I was utterly confused but he kept saying “I don’t want to talk to you but you can call me tonight at 7 if you feel you must”. My blood pressure has been through the roof, I’ve felt dizzy, & I’ve left work Bc I feel like I’m having a heart attack. I canceled a date later w/someone new. I’d made so much progress but I slipped thinking if I understood then maybe I’d heal faster. Now I’m 100 steps backwards & unable to stop my chest from pounding thinking I need a doctor. In 7 hours I won’t hear from him, & I can’t keep doing this for another 4-5 months. He won’t meet in person & only will take a phone call which is so odd to me. Is that a triangulation tactic? I don’t understand why he’s cruel to me when I did nothing to him & never hurt him. Is there a new supply that is so amazing to cause this!?

        1. HG Tudor says:

          If the narcissist was able to text you, you were not in no contact.
          You should not be dating anybody as you have not eradicated the existing narcissist and pursued a solid 6 months of no contact.
          He is cruel to you because his narcissism drives him to behave this way to assert control over you and draw fuel from him because in his world you merit being treated this way.
          It is not “new supply” that is an awful phrase, it will be either IPPS or IPSS. You do not need to know who the narcissist is interacting with.
          1. establish he is a narcissist and which type.
          2. Understand what a Total No Contact Regime is and apply it, without excuse or exception.
          3. Expect the turbulence of your ET and resist it because doing so is well worth the reward at the other side.

        2. wildviolet22 says:

          Karen- uggh, isn’t that the way. Any crack in no contact, and even though he contacted you, somehow it all got twisted, and it’s back to the stupid little head games and control tactics.

          When I’ve been in the predicament before, it does help me to go back to a substance abuse analogy. Like if alcohol was the issue and you had a slip, you wouldn’t then go and continue to hang out in bars every night trying to control the cravings, you’d stay out of bars and go back on the abstinence wagon, right? The same goes for a “slip” with a person…you slipped, contact happened, but now it’s time to get back on the wagon.

          And it’s mind blowing how fast the ET can get whipped up. Hang in there, ride it out, listen to HG, and you’ll be feeling better again before you know it.

        3. Leigh says:

          Karen, I just saw this message. I’m so sorry you are going through this. The reason he is doing these things is, quite frankly, because he’s a narcissist. Everything they do is a manipulation to assert control over you. Even if they do something nice, its a manipulation to assert control over you. You have to always remember that. He’s so cruel to you because he’s a narcissist and he’s using cruelty to control to you. If you need to understand, stay here and read Mr. Tudor’s work. Its the only way to truly understand narcissism.

          My situation is a little different. I know what I’m dealing with. I know my husband is a narcissist and I know what that means. I already understand him, thanks to Mr. Tudor. I actually needed to understand myself and why I stay. I know now that its my addiction to toxic behaviors. As empaths, we want to fix, heal, help & love. I need to feel needed. It makes me feel good.

          I hope you’re ok, Karen. Stay here and keep reading. You will find understanding and support here.

  8. Eternity says:

    @Leigh ,I have tbe Addiction Triple Package as well. The Addiction will never go away because the cake is baked and you can’t unbake it. Don’t worry about what if this ? What if that? You need to go HG is the expert and you need to listen to him if it wasn’t for him I wouldn’t have Escaped, because I didn’t know what I was dealing dealing with. Making journals, doing this doing that is just Pointless. You know you go. Listen to the expert I was in shoes 2 years ago I know exactly how you feel!! I need to give you thiis advice now !!!!!

  9. A Victor says:

    Hi Leigh, good job on listening to your stomach. I don’t know if I will yet, in a romantic situation. Hopefully I will, it is the goal. We went to a camp the next state over, a beautiful and peaceful place to be. We’ve been going every summer for the last 20 or so years so this year, after a year of lockdown, it was particularly nice to be back. And yes, very relaxing.

    I have had a thought (oh dear). So, recently I was in a conversation with another person who surprised me in asking a question about me. Actually it has happened twice recently. Both times I was caught off guard, one I was hesitant to answer because it was my boss, but I did and it turned out well. The other just surprised me but it has made me realize that it was nice to be asked. Do you have the experience often of people asking about you? I felt invisible for much of my life, and really like no one would care what I would have to say. I am wondering if that is a typical empath feeling. Also, in my childhood, as an ACON, no one listened to me, asked about me, cared how my day was etc. I think the same happens to some narcissist ACON’s also but their response to it is to get more noticeable, mine was to withdraw. Some empaths would get more noticeable too possibly. So as an adult I have remained largely withdrawn, about my brain-thoughts, that is a term that I said one time, as in “No one knows these brain-thoughts!” and my kids broke up laughing, it seemed to fit here. Anyway, in considering all of this, it also occurred to me that this is one reason I love this blog so much, it is a place to put my thoughts and if others read them, so be it, if not, fine, but I feel like there is someone who may actually care about what I think. I would not share most of what I share here in my real life. And no one would know to ask me about it. I have spoken to people about narcissism and HG’s work, and how much it has helped me but nothing too personal. I have seen others here say that as ACON’s we are not validated so being here I feel validated, and it is very nice. And I have wondered if you have had the same type of experience, as an ACON.

    1. Leigh says:

      By the way, I didn’t get notification for this comment from WordPress but luckily I got an email notification.

      I was just having a conversation with Asp under Protection and realized something very similar. I had said to Asp that I think my self defense mechanism has been to take care of other people and not worry about myself. Its easier to ignore what’s going on with me. If I’m taking care of others, I’m not thinking about myself. I withdraw too. I also feel invisible. I’m also taken aback if someone asks how I’m doing. It doesn’t happen too often and I prefer if people don’t ask how I’m doing. I honestly don’t want to think about how I’m doing. That shit will open up a can of worms! Its obviously unhealthy to ignore my feelings and I know it needs to be addressed. I prefer to bury them. I’m sure it has to do with being an ACON and my needs not being met as a child. Like I said to Asp, its a work in progress.

      This blog and Mr. Tudor have been the best thing that has happened for me. I finally feel validated as well.

      1. Asp Emp says:

        Leigh, thank you for the mention. I ad not seen your comment until now. It’s been a while since you wrote that comment, so I hope you have felt that you have ‘moved on’ a bit since then?

        1. Leigh says:

          I still think it’s easier to take care of someone else instead of me.

          RE, your other comment about commitment issues. Its started with this comment from Empath007:

          There are a couple of comments and replies to that comment

          1. Asp Emp says:

            Leigh, when you say it’s easier to take care of someone else. I think it is an instinctive ‘response’, probably more so when people are victims of types of abuse? In some way, maybe it is also because, instinctively (in some case, consciously aware) that for some, they felt ‘unworthy’ of love & care and so give it to others, because it is how they learned due to the way they were ‘brought’ up?

          2. Leigh says:

            This is certainly something to think about Asp. Do I feel unworthy because of how I was brought up? It is a possibility. I also think I have commitment and trust issues. I never fully commit or trust anyone. There’s always a piece that I withhold. I don’t give 100% of me to anyone and I do that on purpose. Even with my husband, I couldn’t fully commit to him either. I’ve had many affairs and didn’t have any empathy for him while I was doing it. With Workplace Narc, I never once told him that I loved him even though I was head over heels in love with him. Workplace Narc was my last affair and that ended in April of 2019.

            Could it be that I don’t fully commit because I think they will abandon me? Is it because I don’t trust that they actually have my back? Is it because I don’t trust that they won’t hurt me? I think the answer to all of those questions are yes.

            My issues are so deep and leaving my husband isn’t the only answer. Its only a step in the right direction. I really need to start therapy as well. I have to get passed my commitment and trust issues too. Otherwise, I’ll never have a true partnership with anyone.

          3. Asp Emp says:

            Leigh, hello 🙂 Wow. Thank you for sharing your thoughts. It does sound like that you are similar to me in this respect RE: ‘reasons’ for commitment ‘issues’. I can totally understand. We became the way we are – goes to show how much damage can be caused by parents who did not deserve to be parents and it’s ok to say something like that because we personally experienced it. Yet, at the same time, I know I can ‘open’ up to the right person, someone who understands it all.

            Yes, you’re right – going into the right direction. Maybe in relation to therapy – you are here on KTN now – do you need to go into therapy outside the blog (if that is what you meant)? HG is the best person for the job, either way – instead of having to spend hours talking to someone else all about it?

            In relation to your trust & commitment ‘issues’, it is easier said than done. Maybe it is a part of us that has to be understood and accepted that we need reassurance (from time to time) whether it’s verbal or by look or by touch. There are people that do understand and would accept us as we are. Thanks again for sharing, it means a lot x

          4. Leigh says:

            I think I do need to go to therapy outside of the blog. I want to figure out me. I want a greater understanding of me. While Mr. Tudor is extremely helpful, I need someone who can kick me in the ass but also isn’t so matter a fact about it.

            I agree, its important to not just trust blindly. The problem is I barely trust anyone at all. I need to get to the root of all my issues. Its the only way to true healing. Learning about narcissism opened my eyes, now its time to do something about it.

          5. HG Tudor says:

            A therapist will only cause you further prevarication.
            You have no need to figure out yourself, that is an excuse.
            You know what you are dealing with, you know what you must do, start doing. Or don’t and remain stuck. The time for talking is at an end.

          6. Leigh says:

            Mr. Tudor, I just listened to The Addiction to the Narcissist logic bulletin. You say that the addiction never goes away. Even if I leave right now, I still have to worry about the addiction. If I don’t the addiction, I’m just doomed to fail.

          7. HG Tudor says:

            You are just finding excuses not to do it.
            You need to listen again to what I said because you have only quoted part of what I said and you have missed out an equally important part by again adopting the mentality of “I cannot do this.”
            Either do something about it or decide you will not, but make a decision rather than just talking.

          8. Leigh says:

            Mr. Tudor, I know I keep making excuses. That’s what baffles me so much. Why do I keep making excuses to stay when I don’t want to anymore? I know the answer to that is addiction. So now I have to figure out how do I fight the addiction?

            Everyone telling me to leave doesn’t really help. Its like telling a heroine addict to stop shooting heroine. Unless you address why you’re shooting heroine, you’re always going to be in danger of shooting heroine again.

            I know I have to lower my Emotional Thinking. I know I have to look to the evidence. I know I have to Get Out & Stay Out. You have taken the rose colored glasses off for me and I can see what he is now. Thank you.

            Now how do I lower my addiction enough to leave? I know this is just another excuse but I’ve been ensnared by narcissists for over 50 years and they are everywhere. I need to get to a point where my addiction is so low that it won’t impact me if they do try and come back into my life.

          9. HG Tudor says:

            You leave, this then lowers the ET. If you do not leave, it will not lower and you will remain stuck. You know you have to leave, then you must do it, anything that tells you to the contrary is ET.
            You do not wait to lower your ET before leaving, that will not happen and is just another aspect of the prevarication.
            You have been told in clear terms what you must do. Do it.

          10. A Victor says:

            Leigh, I am starting to believe that I need to learn how to trust wisely, instead of just jumping in with both feet, naked off the bar, as I have in the past. I need to learn how to be okay with things progressing slowly, not try to rush in my effort toward stability and commitment, before it’s suppose to happen. I remember HG saying somewhere that the word “love” shouldn’t even be a part of the conversation for the first year, minimum. Do you realize how crazy that would make me?? I think I’d be wondering what was happening the entire time in the relationship. But, I think with a normal or empath, we wouldn’t actually be wondering, there wouldn’t be the questions. That farmer I dated laid out the future but was in no hurry to make it happen and I was totally relaxed with that whole situation. It just didn’t excite me, excite my addiction, the way my ex did, so my ex’s hoover worked. But that whole situation was so different. I am so happy that I have remembered that now, it is such a nice comparison and I know I was so okay with it. That is reassuring. I think if you are away from the narcs, your ET will go down and these things won’t be so concerning. But I’m not out there yet, many others here have more experience than I of course, so I would listen to them for sure.

          11. Alexissmith2016 says:

            Leigh, I’m not entirely sure it’s feasible or necessarily wise to get over trust issues until you’re with someone you can trust.

            Someone has to earn your trust and I afford different levels of trust to different people.

            I was very naive before I met my husband and used to trust again and again. It didn’t serve me well, by the time I met him it took me a few years before I trusted him. But now I trust him more than I trust myself hahaha but that’s because he deserves that level of trust.

            With other people I may trust some not to steal my money, some not to bad mouth me, others I’d trust to do the right thing most of the time but not always. It really does depend on the individual and circumstance.

            Post N and finding HG, I realise I was still very naive even after I met my husband. I’m not naive any more and whilst I don’t trust, I also feel pretty relaxed about it to. There’s no need to trust everyone with everything. Most people are self serving, including some empaths but to a lesser degree.

            It’s just my view really but I do hear people talk about needing to trust others and I have to say I’m not sure it’s always a good thing. But it doesn’t have to be a negative either. It can be destructive when we place too much emphasis on trust. I strike for a healthy balance with most people. Even Ns, I trust the mid ranger will be more bothered about their facade in some circumstances.

          12. A Victor says:

            Alexissmith, thank you for this. It reduces pressure to trust by a lot. I think I have felt that and it has influenced my behavior at times. Also, that it’s okay to trust certain things. It goes both ways and as long as it’s intentional, we make active choices about it, it’s okay I think.

          13. Bubbles says:

            Dearest Leigh,
            I went to therapy …. didn’t work. They did not fully comprehend narcissist abuse (I see them as relationship advisers) all they did was set me back further, increase my emotions and made me feel worse about myself
            I left my first husband, he was a narc. I based it on asking myself ….’do I stay and be unhappy or do I go and be happy?’ My answer was go and be happy. I had a plan of action, the help of my brother and his trailer and a couple of hours to do it (my neighbour dobbed me in to him, told him the place was being robbed, but luckily I had just made my escape as I saw his car coming home. I lived with my brother and his wife for a month til I found my own place to rent. I only took what was mine and left everything else, even my two cats (he had let them out after I ‘pretended’ to go to work and I couldn’t find them)…..broke my heart 😿

            I still bare the scars and have remnants of feeling unworthy, together with commitment, trust and abandonment issues, however I don’t allow myself to dwell on it
            Leaving him was my best decision ever
            Luv Bubbles xx 😘

          14. A Victor says:

            Dear Bubbles,
            Reading your story has helped me understand how you know so much, thank you for sharing it. It also took me back to my first marriage. The day after I hid the guns and knives for fear he would use them on me was the day I packed up and left. Just a suitcase. 12 months after the wedding. I believe it was my Super coming out.

          15. Empath007 says:

            Therapist generally do not have a clear understanding of what it really is to deal
            With a narcissit – I would imagine a lot in the field are narcissists themselves. My therapist re – victimized me when I tried to talk about it. I knew something was off with our sessions and stopped going as I was kind of shocked she was almost encouraging me to continue with the relationship.

            If you need someone to chat with – and maybe deal with your co dependany issues, I do believe some therapists may have a better grasp on this – a loved one of mine currently has one that has changed her life around.

            But I think she just got lucky because it’s hard to find.

            In your case talking to a lawyer is probably best.

            But if you don’t think you are going to take the steps – maybe it’s not even worth your energy at this point. Just accept you’re staying. And stay. And find a way to make yourself content with that.

          16. Witch says:


            Some people are genetically predisposed to having an addiction to alcohol, but would you tell an alcoholic to continue to ruin their life through their relationship with alcohol?
            You have the option to escape this narcissist and then manage your addiction through the help available here.
            At first it will be a painful process but over time it will get easier and better when you apply what you have learnt here. You are not destined to fail. You have a choice. There are more normal people out there than narcissists. The problem is that we waste our time continuing to invest in a narcissist when there is whole world out there with people who can genuinely love us.

          17. WhoCares says:


            Thank-you for sharing your escape story. I didn’t know that about you.

            That must have tense, the time while loading up the trailer. Good for you!

          18. Whitney says:

            HG, can you admit the one who choked me is not a Narcissist?

            Our intimacy has built slowly over 2 years.

            My friend is ensnared again, saying “I love you” after 2 weeks.

            The one who choked me made a mistake. Not helping me. Got his brother to help me instead. He apologised multiple times. Very genuine. Face full of guilt. Bought me dinner. Next day lunch and dinner. Massage. Helping.

            Very comforting with my feelings.

            Calm and steady. Predictable.

          19. Truthseeker6157 says:


            This panic is partly your addiction. ‘Damned if I do and damned if I don’t.’ It makes you feel defeatist and it’s another ploy to keep you stuck.

            Yes you will always have the addiction to narcissists. We all will, but once you get away from their influence and your ET starts to fall, you feel better. Optimistic and decisive instead of sad and cloudy. The addiction doesn’t have to form part of your every day. It’s just something you need to be aware of, that’s all.

            We have an addiction. It can be managed. It doesn’t have to rule your life and you don’t have to carry on feeling this way. Xx

          20. Foreigner74 says:

            When I was in the eye of the storm with an UMRN (this is the response of the ND I had several years later) and I didn’t know anything about narcissism yet, I went to therapy with 2 different psychoterapists. Neither of them realized I was dealing with a narcissist. The first one wanted me to make a list of the qualities of this man and another of the things I didn’t like of him. Of course the list of his qualities was much longer at my eyes. As a consequence, the UMRN was worth some sacrifices, wasn’t he? The second therapist wanted me to explain what I didn’t like of myself and I ended up talking about me with the same words the UMRN would use to criticize me. At the end of this, I felt more confused and guilty than ever. I felt that the UMRN had always been right, I was unbearable, my weaknesses were so huge, I was mentally ill and he had to stay away from me to save himself. So, while the psychoterapist was suggesting that I contact the narcissist to talk, explain etc , I started thinking that I was an useless human being. At that point my thoughts became very destructive against myself. I won’t go more in details but I’m sure you can guess what I’m talking about. In that scenario, luckily, I found this blog and this was literally my salvation (thank You again H.G.!). Just the time to read “Not tonight Caroline” and the light has been turned on in my life again. I immediately stopped the therapy and never went to therapy again. This happened several years ago, but since my latter psychoterapist has been sending me ads about his work for all the time, two months ago I sent him the link to this blog inviting him to read H.G. ‘s work. Sorry for the lenght of this comment but given my experience I’m genuinely concerned about the lack of knowledge of some so -called experts in this field.

          21. Asp Emp says:

            F74, I loved it when I read “two months ago I sent him the link to this blog inviting him to read H.G. ‘s work”……laughing…… have you heard from that particular psychotherapist since? 😉 Glad you found your way to KTN blog. No other place suitable 🙂

          22. lickemtomorrow says:

            Hi Foreigner74, I found your comment so interesting. The comparison between two different therapists and how they interacted with you.

            I appreciate the way you present the conundrum you were in: “of course the list of his qualities was much longer” … it’s so typical of the way we see ourselves and the way we see narcs. They’ve convinced us in some ways of their ‘greatness’ and we’ve fallen for it hook, line and sinker On the other hand, they’ve convinced us of the opposite. That we are worthless. We basically talk them up to the therapist, at the same time digging our own grave. I don’t know how many excuses I made for mine when talking to others, giving him the benefit of the doubt, while at the same time making myself look like the culprit in the situation. The therapist should know better.

            How awful the second therapist had you thinking and talking in a negative sense about yourself leading you to become even more self destructive.

            It’s amazing how when a light is really shone on what is happening what a difference that can make. It’s been one of my concerns at not being able to use the word narcissist in relation to someone unless they have some kind of official diagnosis. More often than not they won’t get one. So victims are left in this No Man’s Land where the abuse is continued by proxy. The therapist not being aware of or considering the possibility of narcissistic abuse, and the victim also not being aware.

            All you’d have to do is list the symptoms and behaviours. Even make that the starting point. “Does your partner or other significant person in your life display any of the following behaviours? Here’s how we’re going to tackle the possibility of narcissitic abuse” … and then provide the information available here.

            I wonder what your ex-psych’s reaction was to the link you provided?

          23. Bubbles says:

            Dearest Who Cares,
            I was only married 10 months, he changed the moment he put the ring on my finger. He was so nice before we got married. He treated me horribly. He was disrespectful, he accused me of cheating with everyone, even though he was out til late and did whatever he wanted. He timed me wherever I went and he knew how long it took me to get home from work, the abuse got worse if the traffic was heavy and I was late . He checked all my shopping dockets and kept tabs on how much I spent. He isolated me from my family and friends and yelled at me if the house wasn’t perfect and his meals weren’t cooked the way he wanted. He also wanted his clothes washed and ironed a certain way. He wanted things done the way his mum did it. He used to smoke and not shower or brush his teeth before going to bed…. he was always smelly. Even had his own special chair no one could sit in.
            He withdrew sex straight after we were married. Luckily, he never hit me. He knew wherever I was. He’d also take money from my purse. I had a car accident one day and ended up in hospital and all he did was abuse the hell out of me because I wasn’t there to cook his dinner, even though I had concussion, cuts n bruises, broken fingers, severe whiplash. I was always constantly in tears. That’s just part of the story!!
            To say I was a bit tense when leaving … hmmm yes just a tad haha
            Luv Bubbles xx 😘

          24. Asp Emp says:

            Wow, Bubbles. He certainly was some control freak, eh? I am so glad I threw out that Lesser! What you have shared here is a lot. x

          25. Bubbles says:

            Dearest Who Cares,
            Just an add on …….he never remarried, any female he dated…..
            he wanted them to have an STD test done beforehand. He then became a member of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints …. hilarious 🤣
            Luv Bubbles xx 😘

          26. Asp Emp says:

            Bubbles, well, he certainly is not ‘holier than thou’, is he?! 😉

          27. Bubbles says:

            Dearest Asp Emp,
            Yes, he would’ve been a lesser. I’m relaying my story to hopefully help others and so they can relate. It was so long ago, I don’t even think about it. I was 20 when I married him and so naive back then. It was a massive decision at the time to leave, especially after only 10 months. Mr Bubbles knew him.
            Ahhh well, we all make mistakes, but as long as we learn from them, that’s what’s important
            Luv Bubbles xx 😘

          28. Asp Emp says:

            Bubbles, you were 20, that is young. I am glad you got away and found Mr Bubbles. So your husband knew the Lesser – wow, small world, eh?

          29. Foreigner74 says:

            Asp Emp and Lickemtomorrow, just saw your kind comments. My former psychotherapist replied that he does not understand English. Of course, it makes no sense because anyone, anywhere in the world, can easily get a rough translation from English into their own language. I think his answer was born out of a surge of pride, but I hope that sooner or later he will think about it and read this blog.

          30. Asp Emp says:

            F74, thank you for your response,….. interesting…..”My former psychotherapist replied that he does not understand English”. Says it all really. As you explained it can be translated, using the right tools, obviously. Pride? I dunno. Probably ‘deflection’? As you stopped seeing this psychotherapist because they were doing the opposite from the first psychotherapist. A psychotherapist should be helping you & making you feel better (and helping you to understand yourself in a good way), not making you feel bad. That is my view anyway.

          31. Bubbles says:

            Dearest A Victor,
            “hid the guns and knives” 😱 Bloody hell, are you kidding ?
            We don’t do guns ‘down under’ and I would never want to
            To me, guns mean power and killing
            That must’ve been so scarey and horrendous for you AV and leaving with just a suitcase ?? So glad you made it lovely
            See, we all have more in common than we know, however, if I was to leave again, one suitcase alone, would be for my skin care and makeup 💄💅🏻 😂
            As far as guns are concerned, they can shove them right up their left nozzle 👃
            Luv Bubbles xx 😘

          32. A Victor says:

            Dear Bubbles,
            Yes, I just recently realized he is probably also a narc, based on that experience and many others. I can be slow, but also, I haven’t given that one much thought, it was so long ago. But, interestingly, he is the one that I occasionally see.

            Your ‘one suitcase alone’ is funny! 😁

            Yes, I grew up in Minnesota, land of hunting, I learned to shoot as a child, which is not uncommon here. I know it is different in many places around the world though, and the thought of such can be quite surprising for people who are not used to them. I didn’t know a really great adjective to use there, so surprising won out.

          33. Bubbles says:

            Dearest Asp Emp,
            He never went to church the whole time I knew him (except to attend weddings) even though he was RC. I had to sign a document to say I’d bring the kids up RC. I thought, stuff that, that’s never gonna happen! I’d put my foot down when the time came. We had to do a marriage compatibility course with the church beforehand….. funny how identical his was to mine 😱

            He used to drink whiskey, smoke and love his espresso coffee. His sister married an Elder, so I guess that’s why he was hoodwin, I mean ‘persuaded’ into the church 😂
            I always thought he must have been latent homosexual 😂
            It wouldn’t have worked anyway, I enjoy my coffee , bubbles and wine 🥂 🍷
            Narcs never cease to amaze do they? Haha
            Luv Bubbles xx 😘

          34. Asp Emp says:

            Bubbles, how shocking – expectations to signing a document RE: kids as RC. I have never heard of a marriage compatibility course either! Unbelievable! Laughing RE: latent homosexual – you have a way of describing s such. RE: “narcs never cease to amaze do they?”……erm, excuse me, I think it is us empaths that are amazing because we are not normally the ones that move the goal posts every second 😉 I have vowed to never purchase an expresso coffee from McD’s again, it was pricey for a mouthful of coffee that I needed to have while driving on my way back from South to North (I’d been awake 36 hours – shared driving from Spain)…..that coffee was not coffee either!!

          35. Bubbles says:

            Dearest Asp Emp,
            ‘Narcs never cease to amaze do they’ ……I meant in their antics, I was being facetious, not ‘amazing, in a good way… heavens to Murgatroyd !
            Don’t blaspheme Asp Emp 😂
            Empaths are without doubt, the amazing ones, abso-bloody-lutely !

            Our baristas here make a fabulous coffee ! I would never go to maccas …ewwwww 🤢
            “Care for a double shot, flat white extra hot no froth, raw white or cubed sugar with that madam?” ☕️ 😂
            Luv Bubbles xx 😘

          36. Bubbles says:

            Dearest A Victor,
            My mum had a rifle for her property, I never got to see it! She loved having it, gave her power and boy, did she use it … the power that is!
            Guns here, have to be licensed, padlocked and are open to random checks by the police for safety n protection.
            It alarms me all the shooting that goes on in the States… so many unnecessary shootings and accidental deaths. I’m not a fan of hunting myself, particularly for recreational sport ! I seriously would not sleep if there was a gun or rifle in the house.
            My only experience has been, as kids, playing cowboys n Indians or cops n robbers with toy guns, cap pistols and water pistols. I think I’ll just stick to my cubby house, tea set and dolls.
            Luv Bubbles xx 😘

            Ps Imagine the Taliban if they DIDN’T have weapons …. bunch of cowards !!!!

          37. A Victor says:

            Dear Bubbles, I understand, your experience with your mum and guns, very different from mine. Our experiences definitely weigh into our thinking! I have never hunted, my grandpa did it for food, literally, it was one of his contributions to the household. Fishing also, something I do love to do! I don’t believe my grandpa was a narcissist. And I would not hunt for recreational sport if I ever did decide to hunt, no, it would only be out of need.

            We played all of those games as children also, we were never allowed to aim anything we were using as a firearm at a living being. Except for water pistols! It would defeat the purpose of those for sure had it not been allowed there! But, our training and use of real guns was taken very seriously, the value of life emphasized along with the power of the item.

            Yes, the Taliban would be a lot different if they had no guns. Or conversely, if all Afghanis had training and guns and ammo at their disposal, two extremely different schools of thought there. It would definitely help though if the Taliban had not had access/been supplied. If it ever discovered who did that, who funded it, I hope they are drawn and quartered. Sadly, I believe some of our American leaders have been guilty of this, if that is ever found true, it would be a thing I would not be proud of.

        2. Bubbles says:

          Dearest Asp Emp,
          I’ve known Mr Bubbles since I was 10 😱
          We got together eventually 😂
          Luv Bubbles xx 😘

          1. Asp Emp says:

            Wow, Bubbles, I don’t think I’d be ‘getting’ together with anyone I knew in my childhood! Ah, bless, it’s sweet though, about you & Mr Bubbles 🙂

          2. Bubbles says:

            Dearest Asp Emp,
            Marrying a long term friend is not such a silly idea. You already know and like them for all their lovely qualities. What’s not to love ?

            He was a gentleman back then, walked on the outside, opened doors, lit your cigarette, pull out your chair, never lets me pour my own drink, never told crude jokes, stood for a lady and always wears a jacket when no one else bothers to.

            He has a great sense of humour and only speaks when he has something relevant to say (or when I take a breath haha). He’s highly respected in his industry and all the youngsters seek his advice. He’s quietly spoken, articulates brilliantly and is not conceited or arrogant.
            I would highly recommend him for the position, please do not hesitate to contact me should you have any further enquires 🤣
            Luv Bubbles xx 😘

          3. Asp Emp says:

            Oh Bubbles, you have certainly found a diamond of a man. I don’t know any long-term male friends that I would even consider as a partner (ie from my younger years) – they don’t have what I need in a partner. It’s true though, not a bad idea – I would consider a best friend, after all that is what makes it a stronger bond.

            I was thinking about it last year, before I joined KTN about my friend in London – not as a partner, but someone to consider sharing a place with. She’s not married, nor with anyone that I know of. She and I accept each other as individuals – great laugh & it’s so relaxing, just being myself (and vice versa) – there is nothing like it, being who and what you are with another person who just accepts it.

            Laughing……”only speaks when he has something relevant to say or when you take a breath”…. that is funny, Bubbles.

            Thank you for the ‘recommendation’, I don’t have any further enquiries at the moment. You are hilarious. Thank you, Bubbles x

      2. A Victor says:

        Leigh, I just found this comment from you, I’m so sorry! Probably a WP issue. I just read below your steps regarding the attorney and the apartments, so impressed! So happy for you and proud of you though that seems odd! Haha, proud as in you’ve accomplished something valuable and I’m happy for you, if that makes sense? I was actually happy when these people asked about me, it wasn’t a simple how are you, it was more specific which I think is why it stood out. I hope you get to where when someone asks it doesn’t feel like a can of worms is threatening, though I do understand it, it still happens with regard to TTU if someone just says how are you. But these questions were different, about specific aspects in my life, it showed actual interest, not that fake nice kind. Sorry for rambling. You’re in my thoughts very often, hoping things are going well for you.

        1. Leigh says:

          AV, WordPress is a pain in the booty! I’m constantly searching to see if I missed something. Yes, I called a lawyer. Spoke briefly and set up a free consultation. To save money, I would really like to be able to use mediation or uncontested. If he contests, then it can become very costly. There’s no issue with children, so that’s a plus. Now its just marital assets. He keeps the house, I keep my 401ks. Its probably a loss for me but I don’t care. I want out. The other issue I have is a credit card. I don’t have one that’s in my name. They are all in his name and I’m an authorized user. I don’t know how that happened. In my brief conversation with the lawyer, they suggested I get the credit card first because once the divorce proceedings start, I can’t accrue any new debt, Plus anything I’m currently paying for, I will have to continue to pay for. I still wish for the easy way out. I often hope for bad things. It would just make my life so much easier.

          I know what you mean about someone genuinely asking you, “How are you?” I have a co-worker who will often notice when I’m not right. When this all happened with my daughter, he said to me, “You seem a little off, are you ok?” I didn’t tell him that I just found out my daughter was a narcissist. I don’t think people would be able to handle that. I just said thank you for noticing and that I was having an issue with one of my daughters.

          It is nice when people ask and they have genuine concern. Thank you for reminding me of that. There are some good people in the world.

          1. Asp Emp says:

            Hi Leigh, good to read that you are now taking steps to ‘get out’. It won’t be easy but you are doing it, kudos to you for that. HG did assistance packages on divorcing the narcissist, how to deal with the narcissist in court (I don’t know if these include anything on the financial / debts side of things) – I wonder if the lawyer you spoke with would be amenable to being made aware of these assistance packages if he does not know about narcissism? HG can advise better on this.

            Good luck in finding somewhere to make your own place. The realisation of it being your own place will excite you once you have started looking at places.

            Well done, Leigh. Stay on the path and you will achieve what you have needed for so long 🙂

          2. Leigh says:

            Asp, Divorcing the Narcissist is next on my list to buy. I want to make sure I’m prepared.

          3. A Victor says:

            Hi Leigh, your plans are coming along, I am glad to see your lawyers advice about the credit card, that is solid. My friend who is in the middle of her divorce, with kids so more sticky, was the main earner in the 27 year marriage, she is looking at how to not end up paying alimony. These guys don’t deserve it, her husband is just a leech. I hope your lawyers can figure out how to keep you from that also.

            I think you were wise about what you said to your co-worker, people often don’t get it, but still nice to be asked with some meaning behind it. Sometimes when people ask me flippantly, just to make them think a bit, I will say “Do you really want to know?” The small talk/casual question aspect of “How are you?” drives me nuts. Either don’t ask or actually mean it, just a pet peeve. Anyway, as someone here said recently, there are more good people than bad, though sometimes it is difficult to remember it, for me also.

          4. Leigh says:

            If I have to pay him maintenance, I won’t divorce him. I’ll just move out. No fucking way!!! I have to be honest, I’ve been concerned about that too. He’s so pathetic he’d probably ask for maintenance. I will lose my shit AV!

          5. A Victor says:

            His lawyer is likely to suggest it if you’ve been the primary breadwinner. That’s what happened to my friend. Glad to know you have a back up plan. After enough time separated goes by, it may change your status as far as alimony, I would ask your attorney about this. I know, I can’t believe my friend is possibly going to have to give money to him after all the crap he’s done, it’s heartbreaking and infuriating. Same for your situation.

          6. Leigh says:

            That will definitely be on my list to ask. You would think that they would feel like less of a man being taken care of by a woman. But nope, they don’t!

          7. Eternity says:

            Leigh , you are moving on the right track. Good to hear ! You need to file for divorce and serve him with papers. They will slap him right in his flippin assface ! You don’t need to fight, you are entitled to half for God’s sake. Take what is fair and leave! Try not to fight in court lawyers can be very pricey!!!! They are crooks. You are tighy there are some good people out there but not many! I have learned the hard and long way all my life . I met a lot of nice people pretty much on this blog. The majority I have met in my life are Narcissist’s and normals. Good luck wirh everything I wish you nothing but the best.

          8. Leigh says:

            Thank you Eternity. “Slap him in his flippin assface!” I love it!

            I have to think about this logically though. I have to get out first and I have to leave when he’s not home. I have to Escape like the way Bubbles did. If I serve him before I leave, the Preventative Hoovers will start, my emotional thinking will rise and then its a done deal from there.

            First, I have to get a credit card in my name. Luckily, I have a bank account that’s only in my name, so that’s a plus. Second, secure a place to live. Third, serve him with papers. Even to get to step one, there are things I have to figure out first. I can’t have it mailed to my house. He’s home before me and opens the mail and then spreads it out all over the dining room table. I can’t think about his idiotic passive aggressive manipulations. I have to figure out how to a credit card without it being mailed to me. That’s on my todo list today.

          9. Eternity says:

            Yes, open up a bank account under your name. Try and use another person’s address or get it mailed at work. Stay strong ! Have a plan. Stick to it!

          10. Asp Emp says:

            Hi Leigh, RE: your mail – can you look into a private post box or something like that with the mail office? That could be useful until you move out? Similar to a safe / deposit box. You could arrange to have your mail re-directed for 3 to 6 months?

            Anyway, really good to see you moving forward. Good lass x

          11. Leigh says:

            I thought about a PO Box but I can’t forward all the mail because I get household bills.

            I have a plan. My mother has been asking for a debit card but I keep saying no. My husband knows she wants a debit card. I already dropped the seed that maybe I’ll get my mom a credit card with a low credit amount so she’ll stop asking me.

          12. WiserNow says:

            Good luck with your plans Leigh. You’re taking some big and brave steps and I wish you all the best. I’m excited for you!

            Just some practical things that may help (even just to think about):
            – have an email address that’s portable and personal to you (like etc). If you’re moving house or need a private email, it’s easy to use/transfer from one place/account to another. You can provide it where necessary without anyone else having access;
            – consider getting a new mobile phone number that’s private to communicate with people who will help you or lawyers etc.
            – start collecting important documents and keep them in a safe and private place (i.e. passport, birth certificate, social/govt cards, tax docs, bank statements, bills for reference etc)
            – start making a list of items that belong to you that you may need later or want to claim in case of a divorce. Do this now, while you have time. Claim what’s yours without feeling guilty or generous.

            Plan ahead, make lists of things and organise your belongings while you are relaxed and have time.

            Best wishes Leigh. I have my fingers crossed for you xx ❤️

          13. Leigh says:

            WN, I’m a little sneaky and I don’t trust anyone so I already kinda think along those lines. I have a couple of emails that he doesn’t know about. In fact, Leigh isn’t even my real name, nor my middle name. I’m good at hiding things. I have thought about my important documents. I almost want to get duplicates but he opens the mail. I know i have to be very methodical, dot all my I’s and cross my t’s.

            Its very scary that i have to think that way about my husband. Thats why I know it’s time to go.

          14. WiserNow says:

            Hi Leigh,

            Narcs teach us how to be sneaky and secretive. If it wasn’t for their shenanigans, we would be trusting and open, so I know what you mean.

            About the documents, you could photocopy the important ones rather than get duplicates. Photocopying is easier and more convenient. Then, at least you’ll have the reference numbers and details if you need to order duplicates at a later date etc.

            Yes, I know what you mean about feeling that way about your husband. The people that are supposed to be our closest loved ones and friends are more like enemies we need to protect ourselves from. It’s a cruel joke.

            Considering everything, you will be happier after you make the move. You will feel much more in control of your life 🙂

          15. WhoCares says:


            Good that you are investigating some steps forward.

            “To save money, I would really like to be able to use mediation”

            Don’t use mediation with a narcissist. It is more trouble than it’s worth; been there, done that, got the T-shirt.
            (Unless HG had some different to say on the matter, I don’t think mediation works with a narc).

            Utilize all of HG’s assistance packages and bulletins related to legal matters and a decent lawyer – THAT will save you money. Save you a lot of time and headache too.

          16. Leigh says:

            I plan on getting “Divorcing the Narcissist” so I’m sure that will help. My husband is a victim narc so he’s much more talk than action. The divorce lawyer I called said a contested divorce starts with a 5k retainer. Thats 5k from each of us. Thats 10k from our savings. Thats just the retainer. If we have to go to court multiple times, it could be even more costly.
            He won’t want to spend that. I’m going to try and work that angle and thats why I want to offer him house.

            I know others want me to fight for the house but I just want it done as quickly and cheaply as possible..

          17. Bubbles says:

            Dearest Leigh,
            Please DON’T copy me!
            YOU do what’s best for YOU, everyone’s situation is individual
            I didn’t have much of choice or indeed help
            Avail yourself to everything you need, prep n plan ahead …. it needs to executed with kid gloves on, when dealing with a narc.
            It’s not like you can just sit down with him and say, hey honey I’m leaving and he’ll offer to help you pack, wave you goodbye, chuck in, all the best, followed with a, let’s do coffee when you’ve settled in
            Play it real careful Leigh
            I was just lucky and the timing was in the nick of ! I had no idea what he would do….thankfully he left me alone.

            Curious….. how old are your children ?
            Also, congratulations on your new determination lovely 😊
            Luv Bubbles xx 😘

          18. Leigh says:

            Yes, I have to be careful. That’s why I have to do it the way you did it. I have to myself a place to live. Then escape. I have to do it when he’s not home. Which won’t give me much time so I will have to plan accordingly only take what is absolutely needed. If he has any inkling that I’m leaving, the preventative hoovers will start and I’ll never get out the door. I have a plan.

            As for my children, they are both in their early 20s and both still live at home. Thats what makes me nervous that the preventative hoovers may work.

          19. Duchessbea says:

            Very happy for you that you are moving forward and doing what you feel is best for you.
            Hope everything goes very well for you and I wish you all the very best.
            Much Love and Hugs.

          20. Leigh says:

            Thank you DB ❤

          21. Sweetest Perfection says:

            Leigh, I’m very excited to read you are moving forward with an escape plan. Please, be extremely careful; most cases of domestic violence occur when the abusive part realizes the victim is trying to escape. Keep your new address totally private do not share with anyone who knows your husband. You need to keep a best friend or someone you trust informed in case something happens so that this person can check on you. I know you said you are not scared of him, but you never know how narcs will react when they feel fury.

          22. Leigh says:

            Sweet P, I know. I’ve seen the fury. I worry that if I’m not around he will take it out on my children.

  10. Asp Emp says:

    Reading the words “I cast you to one side, you did not leave me….”

    Henry VIII came to my mind. Historically, people can see how he treated his wives and other ‘key’ people in / around his life. When somebody who knows about narcissism and the history of Henry VIII, they can ‘connect the dots’ to ‘see’ where the machinations, manipulations and obsessions of Henry’s dark, ruthless characteristics of his personality come to the fore, in what circumstances, who was involved (affected). Henry VIII was powerful, not just because of who he was (as King of England), he was powerful because of what he was.

    Back in those days, people were not as overly ‘open’ with their emotions in public and the social ‘differences’, especially between the rich and the poor were very divisive, Human Rights did not really exist then. These days, in my view, people tend to react / respond more with their emotions, partly because of the ‘sheep herding’ mentality mainly caused by the implementation of Laws everywhere and dictated by those in political power.

  11. Karen says:

    I was discarded by my ex for his new supply (he had during me as well). However, he’s spoken with me nonstop for 4 months. He claims I made contact with him & he has been smearing me telling me I’m not wanted ever again since I annoyed him. What is the case when the narcissist hears from you? Do they think of you or is it only in a negative way from that point forward? How can the former primary supply be viewed again by them positively?

    1. A Victor says:

      Hi Karen, if he heard from you, you have entered a sphere of influence and he is probably still in the golden period with the new victim hence why he is accusing you of initiating and rejecting you. Once the new victim becomes stale, or enters devaluation for some other reason, you will likely be flipped back to white, all his smears will be forgotten (by him) and he will want to talk to you again. It is disordered, it is a disorder, this is why/how it happens. Best thing you can do is use the time he’s busy with her to establish a solid no contact regiment. Best of luck.

      1. Karen says:

        It’s been 4 months with the new ISSP which seems long. I’ve been blocked 1 week which makes it easier, but I expect to hear from him again someday. It seems like a very long golden period for the new supply. This is what’s odd.

        1. A Victor says:

          Hi Karen, I just saw your reply, I apologize for the delay responding. Have you considered blocking him? If you do, and at such a level that HG suggests, he will have a very difficult time reaching you again, and you will be free from that concern. It does help calm the nerves down, it did for me anyway.

  12. luvbuck0 says:

    When dating my ex he disengaged from me and spent that first night with another woman. He then spent the next 4 months without me doing whatever he was doing. I am convinced that during that time what this article says is true, he did not think of me. I thought of him less all the time too, to the point where I thought “good riddance”. I wish I would’ve never spoken to him again. It took me a long time to understand it was a hoover when he came back, talking to him, allowing him into my apartment that day, is one of the biggest regrets I have. I don’t dwell on it often but this article brought it to mind. I wish there was some way to not feel it as regret but to just not feel anything about it anymore, since I can’t change it. I can still feel that sick feeling in my stomach as I felt myself being sucked back into his chaos, our chaos. It helps to now understand what was happening.

    1. Leigh says:

      AV? Is that you? Are you trying out a new name?

      1. A Victor says:

        Haha, yes, it is I, and no, it is not a new name. Good grief, I typed my email address and autopilot took over for something else. I was on vacation this last week so not paying attention I suppose. The comment still stands though! Lol!

    2. Leigh says:

      I know what you mean about feeling sick to your stomach. Now I know to listen to it. I wish I would have listened to it then.

      How was your vacation? Did you go anywhere fun? Hope you were able to relax.

      1. A Victor says:

        Leigh, since I am not receiving notifications due to my name mistake, I will respond in a comment, but I am hoping you get a notification for this so you can look for the other one, on this thread.

        1. Leigh says:

          WordPress seems to be working randomly, lol! I got this notification.. I’ll look for your other message.

  13. ? says:

    Thank you

  14. fox says:

    I respaect both you

  15. Molly says:

    HG …when the narc is gathering fuel and chatting with someone he likes or someone he wants to like him ….the narc does refer to his primary when he wants the other potential source ( interest) to know he is likable and worthy of keeping a primary. The disengaged primary isn’t really thought of truthfully but he will talk about her a lot ..right ? Like he throws the primary’s name around to make a sale ..”such as my wife always slams doors so these soft close hinges will make slammed draws impossible “ hahhaaa. Does this mean the primary is just used verbally but never really thought of or “missed”. What is this called ?

    1. HG Tudor says:


  16. psychologyandworldaffairs says:

    So many contradictions…

    I may not know what my ex is – but I did understand he was very sensitive to what others thought of him. I always thought that – I would be safe from him wanting to return to any sort of relationship. He painted me black to people – would he than be thought a fool for coming back to me?

    Would how others would view this, not act as a deterrent to any future interaction?

    1. A Victor says:

      Hi PAWA, my ex smeared me all over for a couple of months before he left. I was painted black and he was setting his departure up so his facade would be the least damaged and he could continue to use people after he left. Also, it was preemptive to anything I might do once he left. His sister told me, at my daughter’s wedding shower, that he’d told her he was “unhappy” in our marriage. It made me furious, both that he’d told her this and not me, and at her telling me at this special event. She’s the one I still have no respect for. Anyway, it was this sort of crap all over the place, most of which I didn’t learn of until much later. I didn’t discuss our relationship with people after he left, because I didn’t know the ending and also because it is not my nature, I just told them he no longer lived in our home. Their reactions often told me a lot, whether he’d “gotten to them” prior to leaving or whether they thought it was awful he’d abandoned his family or whether they just felt sympathy for me etc. Many people apologized to me later for having believed him. Some never have, they are not among my acquaintances any longer. All this to say, had he decided to hoover me and had he been successful, he would simply have rewritten history to all these people, smoothing it over where necessary, pinning more blame on me for our fall out and making himself the good guy for taking me back, I am convinced of this. It’s just what they do.

  17. Sweetest Perfection says:

    No. Next!

    1. Asp Emp says:

      SP, …..’K.I.S.S.’….. 😉

    2. Asp Emp says:

      SP, laughing……excellent and apt words regarding your current avi 🙂 It is just too good!!!

      ‘unearthed footage’ laughing……(thanks, HG :-))

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