Who Are the Racists?

335 thoughts on “Who Are the Racists?

  1. Empath007 says:

    Leigh, this thread is getting to long so I will comment here. I hope you don’t get offended when I say this – but – if you’d had numerous affairs that (as far as I’m aware) your husband did not know about , the chances are quite high – he also had affairs you do not know about. He is likely even better at hiding that kind of thing then you, so it’s good it has not interfered with your life but honestly I doubt he hasn’t.

    1. Leigh says:

      Emparh007, yes, I can’t ever say never. Hes really not very bright though. I think I would see it. But who knows.

      And, I’m not proud of this but I’m really good at hiding things. Even posting here. Totally separate email that not on my phone. I deleted my history every single time I leave my browser. I check my email in incognito mode. Maybe someone smarter could figure it out but he only has a 10th grade education

      1. Asp Emp says:

        Leigh, good to read about your security ‘methods’. Your last sentence made me laugh…….ah, bless you, Leigh.

      2. A Victor says:

        Leigh and Empath007, I know for a fact my mother did not have sexual affairs, she is a Victim narc. She did flirt a lot and she did give her “respect” to other men, specifically her pastors. She idolized them, it was IPSS, GP for years and years. My dad was in devaluation must of that time. But, there are numerous ways I know she did not sleep with anyone. So her infidelity was emotional but no less harmful. I mention this only as a possibility for your husband Leigh, perhaps online? Many do it that way.

        1. Leigh says:

          AV, did you see my response to Alexis? An online affair could definitely work. He does think he’s the best thing since sliced bread so he could conceivably fool someone online. He actually tells people, “They should just clone me and then all women will be happy.” 🤣🤣🤣 I can’t help but laugh at that. I find it fascinating how someone can be that delusional.

          1. A Victor says:

            Leigh!! That is super funny!

            No, I didn’t see your response to Alexis. I will have to watch for it. Glad to see you are able to laugh!

      3. Empath007 says:

        I mentioned being “better” meaning he will not suffer any guilt when he has the affair. Therefore he’s calm and wouldn’t show any signs.

        I’ll go back to my original advice though : you’ve decided you’re going to stay, so make the best of that situation first. It can be very stressful thinking about leaving but not actually doing it. It’s perfectly OK to be content with your choice and not spend your days battling your husband or yourself.

        And i’ll Pray he gets excited about a new prospect soon ! Haha.

        1. Leigh says:

          Empath007, I haven’t actually decided to stay. I just feel stuck and think it would just be easier if he left me. Ugh! Sometimes I can’t stand that I won’t stick up for myself.

          As for feeling guilt, I never felt guilty for cheating on him. This last affair with Workplace Narc, I did feel guilty but because of my children. I didn’t want them to be hurt by the fact that I did this to their father. However, I assuaged that guilt by making myself believe that they would understand if they knew he was toxic. It turns out they did know he was toxic. I never told them about the affair though. Even if they would be sympathetic, they don’t need to know.

          1. A Victor says:

            Hi Leigh, I’ve been listening to the Addiction Triple Package again today, you popped into my mind, I don’t know if it’s one you have, but it might be helpful with regard to your ET. Also, I forgot that a long time ago you and I discovered we are quite close on our EDC’s. I can’t remember though, do you have any CoD or Martyr? Those two might make it even more challenging to move forward. I’m not asking for an answer if you aren’t comfortable, just thinking ‘out loud’ a bit. Hope you are doing well.

          2. Leigh says:

            Hi AV, I don’t mind sharing. No CoD or Martyr, lol. Standard Majority and a little bit of Super and Contagion.

            Yes, I have the addiction triple package. I probably need to listen again. I see Mr. Tudor just posted another video on addiction today.

            Is that new, Mr. Tudor?

          3. A Victor says:

            I was wondering that also today but I re-listened to the triple package today and I think it’s the same.

            Yeah, I just think it’s difficult for any of us to leave. Escape doesn’t happen often from what I’ve gathered.

      4. Another Cat says:

        I know you get a lot of advice here, hard to keep track of all of us “wise ones”, but

        I observe

        that your husband’s financial and social dependence on you might make you feel a bit of relief through all these years. You feel you have some power in this relationship? You’re in the driver seat? It keeps you from leaving him and getting yourself a better life. But the reality is, he is suckng the energy out of you. Holding you back.

        I know you also feel tonnes of empathy for him.

        It’s twofold.

        1. You feel safe because you are the one helping him. You don’t owe him.
        2. And also responsible for his wellbeing.

        You deserve a release and escape.

        I thank HG for the advice he gave about Not journaling. What a relief not having to do that. Helps us all.

        1. Leigh says:

          I do feel like I have some power in this relationship. Everything you said is spot on. I want him to leave because then I’m not to blame.

          1. Another Cat says:

            There is a colleague of mine fitting that description of your husband. Just sittning at a meeting where he is present makes me so tired. He always looks extreeeemly tired, often doesn’t answer questions from others. When we have digital meetings he is often sittning on a train, never truly sleep ung though, just looking exhausted. And this is probably how he gets his fuel. Making ppl in the room feeling drained. It didn’t occur to me that mhe might be a narc until I thought about your husband, Leigh.


            That guy is something else. Luckily not a boss/admin staff. Phew.

            And now HG is gonna ask “But you do have a little thing for him though?”

          2. Leigh says:

            AC, until I came to this blog, I didn’t realize there was such a thing as a victim narcissist either. I figured narcissists were grandiose, extroverts who were conceited, selfish show-offs. Boy was I wrong!

          3. HG Tudor says:

            But the good news Leigh is that you now know.

        2. MP says:

          Hello AC, I can see how journaling can be bad and make things worse for us if the journaling is focused on the narcissist and how we were abused. It just cements our identity as the victim and makes the narcissist more prominent in our lives when we immortalize them in our very own journals. But for me journaling lately has been helpful because the things I have been putting in my journal are about myself and there’s not even an honorable mention of the narcissists. I use to journal to write down my intentions and prayers and my gratitude and the only people that I have been writing about in my journal are really just my family and all of the fun stuff I love and enjoy about them, especially my kids. I also wrote down memes, poems, Bible verses, quotations that resonated with me or affirmed my experiences or gave me motivation. I have sometimes at the height of my emotions in the past have written about my bad experience from a narcissist but I found myself either tearing the page when I came back to it or not having the motivation to continue the journal. It just felt demoralizing. Now I understand why, thanks to what H.G. has said about journaling. Now I am pretty sure that I will never mention the narcissists in my journal and I’m glad that it is now a very clear rule in my mind.

  2. BC30 says:

    8chan and the dark web would like a word.

  3. NarcAngel says:

    Part of the problem with child pornography are the definitions of “child” and “consent”. That may factor into some normals viewing it.

    1. Witch says:

      Do you mean normals that think as long as they are started their periods is fine?

      1. A Victor says:

        Or can grow a beard? My son could grow a full one at 13. Two of my girl’s had periods at 10.

        I do feel there is misunderstanding of definitions but even that doesn’t explain it for me.

        1. Witch says:

          Certain normals:

          “As long as they have one chest hair it’s calm”

          1. A Victor says:

            Oh geez, it’s so disgusting. It makes me want to hurt someone. 3 of my 4 children molested, you know, how much does that crap play a part in that?? It makes me so angry.

    2. Witch says:

      One of my grandfather’s got with my grandma age16 when he was in his 20’s. We worked out that he was about 23.
      I still think it’s 🤢 but I understand that it was probably more normal in their time than ours.
      He married her and she claimed she never wanted to marry him. But we will never know the truth cause narc genes are in my family.

    3. Sweetest Perfection says:

      Exactly NA. To me it’s an oxymoron. It’s just rape or sexual abuse. Children don’t engage in pornography.

      1. A Victor says:

        Aha, yes, that makes sense, the words don’t belong together in any form. Thank you.

  4. Sweetest Perfection says:

    Empath007, meditation and mindfulness certainly help you lose fear of the unknown. I wish they taught meditation in school.

    1. Empath007 says:

      Oddly enough… a meditation class was my first date with the narc 😂😂 I was trying to work on my issues ! The first attempt was clearly a disaster Hahaha. But I now do it again – single and loving the peace of being on my own – and it’s helpful.

      1. Sweetest Perfection says:

        I doubt a narc could really meditate. You need to confront your ego to get rid of your ego, and we all know how much they enjoy that … my first attempt at meditation was typical: thinking of every possible stupidity, including memories I never had again out of desperation, checking the clock, feeling itchy and resisting scratching… hahaha!

  5. Violetta says:

    HG, there is a lot of talk about mental health and athletes:
    Naomi Osaka, now Simone Biles. Are critics necessarily racists? (Don’t know if Piers is a racist, but since we do know he’s a narc, he’d be happy to criticize anyone for any reason.)

    What I’m wondering is whether any of the athletes claiming mental health problems are narcs. Things have changed a lot since I competed, but the last thing you wanted in those days was for the team or your coach to suspect you were a basket case. Especially if you were privately concluding that you were.

    1. MommyPino says:

      Not exactly related to your comment but speaking of gymnastics, I’m just so happy about Sunisa Lee winning. If you look at her she looks like an empath. So happy for the Hmong community too. I was not aware of the story of the Hmong people until Clint Eastwood has put a spotlight on them in his movie Gran Torino.
      She seems like a strong person as she almost didn’t want to compete in the Nationals two years ago because her dad got paralyzed because of an accident but she was able to overcome it and successfully competed.
      I was thinking about how narcissists acquire traits through making extensions of sports teams. Non narcissists can also feel strong pride about an athlete or a sports team that lifts their spirits and gives pride to their identity such as how the Hmongs must be so amazingly proud of her. I remember feeling the same way about Manny Pacquiao. The difference though from a narcissist is that when he lost I never attacked anyone as I was feeling sadness for him and not feeling any loss of control. I hope that more empaths like Sunisa Lee get to be victorious and have the chance to be good role models.

    2. MP says:

      Regarding Simone Biles,

      I think you have a point about withdrawing since many narcs play sick or withdraw to control a situation. But I don’t see any other red flags about Simone Biles. It seems like her team mates all love her and get a long with her. I have not seen her be mean to anyone. Right now I think she may just be really going through some mental difficulties. I have wondered if Ryan Lochte was a narcissist before but right now he seems to be happy with his family and have been away from troubles. I have read that all he did since childhood was swim and a lot of these Olympic athletes pretty much didn’t have a life outside of trying to be the best in their sports which has to take a toll in their mental health. A US gymnast Sam Mikulak have been candid about his mental health struggles as well. He said the he experienced extreme high when he first competed in the Olympics and he ended up basing his happiness in achieving that high. Now he is relearning to enjoy his life without that high and he seems to be a loving husband as well and his wife is supportive. I think Olympians just are in a totally different league with special experiences that we may not understand.

      1. Another Cat says:

        From their stare, glare and behaviour, I believe both Osaka and Biles are narcs.

        But I still understand young contestants and athletes, even narcissists, feeling emotionally awkward about these olympic games with lack of physical proximate audience. Yes, narc athletes lack the immediate validation/power surge/fuel from a live audience, and even if that is their personal reason, I do have some understanding.

        It’s weird times,

        Japanese pandemics police walking among athletes/visitors, the whole situation.

        1. MP says:

          It’s a good point. I did hear Simone Biles in an interview saying having no audience is very difficult for her. She’s really young though and I will be interested what future patterns of behaviors we can see from her or if there is any. I believe this is her last Olympics so it would be interesting how she will live her life after this chapter. I have also wondered before if Michael Phelps is a narcissist because he had troubles after his Olympics career but right now he seems to be pretty quiet and enjoying his family life.

          1. Another Cat says:

            Yes well it’s the quite stiff facial movement that gets to me, regarding all the celebrities HG has listed as having NPD. (except the ones with exaggerated facial expressions like Jim Carrey, rubber faces)

            Maybe Armand Duplantis (pole vault) is an empath. His father definitely is.

            Of Biles, Osaka I’ve read that they’ve had troubles in general getting along with immediate family. Can happen to ACONs, but mostly to narcs.

            Many narc celebrities are probably quite nice to get along with and you’d have to ask the wife to find out about all the therapist help they’ve needed to just make a day go by, and when the children ask for help they just sit quietly and stare at the window.

          2. Asp Emp says:

            AC, you made me laugh “rubber faces”.

            It is sad that children get ignored, it’s not conductive for the child’s development, at all. I have seen a friend of mine do it to their children, obviously, I didn’t say anything. At least the children are grown up now / teens – it will be interesting when I next see the children (been a good few years since) and observe if they have been impacted.

          3. MP says:

            I did a quick image search of Armand Duplantis and I think he’s an empath too just looking at his eyes. But I don’t know anything about him. With Simone Biles, I can see what you are saying and I am also leaning towards narc. when it comes to her expressions but I’m hesitant because I don’t know much about her either and athletes tend to throw me off because some of them are just acting out because of many years of living in a very strict and rigid regimen.

            So true about looking at the affect of the intimate partners. My husband’s mom had that affect and he actually told me that he only has very few pictures of her and it upsets him that in all of those pictures she looked tired of life because of his dad. He wish there was at least one picture where she looked happy.

            In my personal observations though, some victims manifest in a different way where instead of being drained they resort to distractions such as too much eating, too much shopping, too much volunteering, and even have narcissistic behaviors etc. so that their mind would escape. I know this was how I was when I was still in a battle against the narcs I had in my life. Both are bad ways of coping because the best way is NC.

          4. WiserNow says:

            Another Cat & MP,

            Just my two cents about Naomi Osaka . . . When I first saw her speaking, I got the impression she could be a narc.

            I thought her facial expressions lack emotion, even though she may have just won a tournament, or is receiving applause on a talk show etc. She is very careful and deliberate when talking and there’s just something calculated about her.

            She comes across as very humble and modest, and it seems unconvincing. I just don’t see that a young woman who has the drive and competitive ambition to win four Grand Slams and other major tournaments is genuinely that shy and modest.

            The mental health struggles she says she’s having are interesting. When I heard the news surrounding that, it was claimed she wanted to avoid press conferences after her matches because her shyness makes her anxious about them.

            Personally, I’m not convinced about her ‘shyness’. I tend to think there’s a bit of a diva in there somewhere.

      2. Violetta says:

        “It seems like her team mates all love her and get a long with her.”

        They’re not going to say publicly, “Woohoo! Everybody shift up up one spot!”

        1. MP says:

          I do feel bad for those other girls in the gymnastics team because a lot of people assume that if SB didn’t withdraw, they wouldn’t get the gold because she would have. I feel it’s not fair because that minimizes what they have achieved. Yes she was number one in the trials and she made an incredible performance before but if she had not withdrawn this time would she really have won if she feels her mental health was affecting her that much? Although it is also a persuasive argument that if she had competed with mental problems she could have had a serious accident. But that also means she would not have outperformed those girls that stayed.

  6. SMH says:

    Thank you for the information, HG, but I would still argue that racism is different. That is why “hate crimes” are crimes against protected classes of people. Of course death threats are also crimes, but calling a white person a loser is not in the same league.

    1. HG Tudor says:

      It is not different.

      1. A Victor says:

        Would you say that racism is a form of hate-crime but there can be other forms also, sexism, ageism, familial etc?

        1. HG Tudor says:

          Hate crime is categorised by legal definition.

          1. A Victor says:

            Oh I see, thank you.

  7. WiserNow says:

    This case of racism is very saddening – and quite alarming too.

    (By the way, I still visit KTN to read the posts and comments. I feel motivated to comment on this post. I guess my empathy for these players and fans etc overshadows the emotional ‘residue’ of any disagreements I’ve had here.)

    Susan David is a South African psychologist who has researched and studied ’emotional agility’ in depth and has written a book called ‘Emotional Agility’.

    The following is an excerpt from an article about her. The article is in relation to her work regarding psychological consultations with people in business settings. Her views, in my opinion, are quite relevant in any situation – not just business, but life in general.

    In the article Susan David says:
    “Only dead people never fail. Only dead people never experience the disappointment that comes with that failure. Only dead people never get their hearts broken. Discomfort is the price of admission in a fragile, beautiful world, and you don’t get to build a career, or have a family, or leave the world a better place, without stress and discomfort,” David explained.

    “Emotional agility is not an easy thing to attain, she says, largely due to the complexity of the modern world. While there is a laundry list of definitions for ‘agility’, including being inclusive, customer-focused, and relational, there is a paradox that makes it tricky to navigate.”

    “That paradox is that technology has evolved at a speed that is significantly greater than the speed at which we have evolved”, she said. “The same complexity that drives the need for agility also undermines it, because when people are feeling stressed, or facing ambiguity, they are less able to be innovative and much more likely to focus on what is known. They are much less able to be collaborative and more likely to become tribal.”

    To me, it appears that the frustration and bigotry unleashed in some people due to the loss of a football game was an ugly case of people acting on their negative emotions. The context and situation fanned the flames of anger, disappointment, stress and the need to blame someone else for difficult emotions.

    Perhaps if there was greater knowledge and understanding about how emotional discontent leads to more competitiveness and tribalism and less empathy and collaboration, such alarming social situations could be avoided.

  8. lisk says:

    HG, I do not understand how can you say I am empath when I cannot bear a lot of the “These young men did a great job for their country!” comments.

    To me, it’s like giving praise to bad work, or like offering a trophy to someone for just showing up.

    I certainly do not like it when it’s done to me, e.g., when somebody says, “Lisk, what a great job you did!” when I know for a fact that I produced utter crap.

    If I am indeed an empath, then what’s the narcissistic trait that gets me so riled up about sugarcoating?

    1. MP says:

      (Personally, even though my opinion was not asked) I think it depends on which trait is manifesting dominantly on each individual and also the perspectives issue also plays a big role.

  9. MB says:

    My husband is a normal so I get it. The first time I heard HG explain the nose-down normals, I knew what I was dealing with. I am appalled at his insensitivity sometimes. I have a blank look of my own that communicates clearly, “I can’t believe I’m married to you.”

    1. A Victor says:

      How did you find a normal?

      1. Eternity says:

        Ha ha good one A Victor. I always seem to bump into Narcissists. I had one guy I met and said to me. Have you ever been swept off your feet?
        I said I beg your pardon and walked away. Who says that? Instead of saying hello how are you nice to meet you . Swept of my feet , ya right.

        1. A Victor says:

          Wow Eternity! That red flag hit you right in the face! Thank you for that laugh, needed that today! 🙂

          1. Eternity says:

            A Victor , yes I see the red flags left,right and centre. You are so welcome ! Glad I made you laugh . We definitely need it sometimes.

    2. MP says:

      My brother is a normal, not emotional but a very good person. Has very high and solid integrity. People like myself, his wife and everyone who knows him well enough has high respect for him. He is not the kind of person that offers advice or encouragement but I have never seen him be mean or nasty to anyone. He also happened to be very politically correct and respectful. We cannot generalize everyone. It depends on the individual person. My husband is most likely a normal too and I have never seen him be nasty to anyone either, not even to his N ex wife.

    3. Asp Emp says:

      MB, laughing…..”I have a blank look of my own that communicates clearly, “I can’t believe I’m married to you.” – I believe there are LOADS of people who have that same look as you have described. I have seen it – in my friends. LOL. Even men do it! Facial expressions, or the looks in the eyes – are a ‘language’ of their own.

    4. Sweetest Perfection says:

      Haha MB, “a blank look of my own”=RBF?

      1. MB says:

        Exactly SP! 😆

        1. Sweetest Perfection says:

          I knew it! Haha

  10. SMH says:

    Nice, HG. Glad I popped in. Hope you are well.

    I think racists have something ‘extra.’ I mean what if the penalty kickers had been White English and lost? Would the so-called fans have gone on to abuse them too? I don’t think so, though maybe there is evidence out there of abuse directed towards White players and I just cannot find it. What about teams where non-White players are not abused? There are plenty of narcs among ardent nationalist fans elsewhere in the White world but the English have a reputation as racists, maybe because they pretend so hard that they are not and simply cannot hold it in? Or maybe because it starts from the top with Little Trump (aka BoJo) and his ministerial minions.

    I watched every minute of the game with dread, wishing that the team could win while the fans lost!!

    1. HG Tudor says:

      Of course they would abuse a white player

      David Beckham https://www.fourfourtwo.com/features/when-david-beckham-was-most-hated-man-england-and-had-greatest-season-his-life

      John Terry, Joey Barton, Dennis Wise, Robbie Savage and Jamie Redknapp are all white players who have been repeatedly abused on the terraces and online by so called friends as a consequence of their football. Those are ones just off the top of my head, there are many more.

      1. lisk says:

        Of course they would abuse each other as well.

        Thinking of Bill Buford’s Among the Thugs.

      2. Sweetest Perfection says:

        I tried to explain this in the video and there was mayhem! Thank goodness everyone -but the one commenter who complained- sided with me.

  11. Alexissmith2016 says:

    That was fantastic. It’s helped me make so much sense of the normals now too. No wonder I always felt so different.

    Thank you HG

    I have a friend who is a normal and he once made a comment to me that when he lost his hair in his late 20s he was really jealous of his younger brother who hadn’t. He said it made him really happy when his brother also lost his hair a couple of years later.

    I don’t get that at all? Not in the slightest? My sister is an N. She tried really hard to screw me over a couple of years ago and played massive of games which I did not want to engage in but had no choice. I would have stood to lose an awful lot at her hands if I had not. And it was only because of everything I’ve learned from HG that I managed to get through this. My empathy at an all time low because of this. But never would I ever wish anything bad to happen to her. Yes, I countered her every move, yes I wanted to win the game she had forced on me. But never did I wish anything bad to happen to her at all. I just didn’t want her in my life. I’ve sought revenge on Ns in the past but it is only something which would be hurtful to an N just silly things really that would really piss them off but nothing harmful or life changing.

    I hadn’t realised normals were so lacking. It makes me really sad but I’m hugely grateful to you HG for this additional knowledge.

    1. A Victor says:

      Normals annoy me. But if one decided to aim his empathy in my direction, someday down the road, I’d consider him viable. Not true of narcs anymore. Yes, this additional information is very good to have, thank you HG.

      1. Alexissmith2016 says:

        I agree AV and the more I’ve learned the more my empathy for another is equal to the empathy they themselves are capable of. 0% for Ns somewhere in the middle fir normals and 100% for Es. Although since this article it’s way less than 50% for normals now.

        Even though I feel differently inside about different individuals I still do the right thing by them unless they’ve fucked me over lol

      2. Witch says:

        What I’ve found with normals (at least through work) just tell them regularly that you appreciate their help a lot and it’s making such a difference and “thank you so much!” and you can get them on your side pretty quickly to do your empath bidding. Especially when the normal is a het man and he feels appreciated by a woman.

        1. Alexissmith2016 says:

          Hahaha nice work Witch!

          I guess what I struggle with a little having listened to this is that a normal who has some degree of empathy would actually make racist or hurtful comments. They would also engage in viewing child porn? I accept their empathy is different to ours ans it’s not all normals. But I’m still kind of struggling a little to comprehend this.

          I guess though, with a normal if you explain to them they’ve been hurtful there is a possibility they will reflect on this but then it makes no sense to me that they would write hateful comments about the penalty takers. If they have empathy I appreciate from listening to this article it’s not for people they dint know, but why not? How not? How can they not sit and think this person must be feeling really shitty about missing the penalty. Why would they want to make it worse for that person. For me it’s unforgivable.

          1. Witch says:


            I agree with you from the Empath perspective.
            From what I’ve learnt about normals here, I understand how their emotional empathy is eroded more quickly than ours which would lead to them making a racist comment but generally not being a “bad” person. Sometimes a normal just needs more positive experiences with the people that they temporarily believe that they hate.
            As empaths we are extra and go the extra mile in whatever we do. A normal wants to get away with doing the bare minimum. So what I’ve learnt is to hype up their bare minimum like they doing something so great, and then they will have more empathy for you and want to do more for you personally, that’s how you sway them.
            If HG has a PA who is an empath then he has a very valuable employee indeed, because a normal will clock out right on time in most cases.

          2. Alexissmith2016 says:

            Hahha Witch, I do have a couple of friends who are normal and they are exactly as you describe. One whom I love dearly but he won’t go out of his way. When we meet (we live quite far) he doesn’t like it if we end up a bit off the beaten track as he wants to have the easiest quickest route home. Whilst I would quite happily put myself out if it means it will be more fun wherever we’re going.

            I have to trick him. Wait…is that being manipulative?

          3. Witch says:


            That is probably also why we are attracted to narcissists because they are also extra and dramatic but in a different way so we think they are just “misunderstood” like we are because we both have too much energy.

            I can’t stand people who won’t travel more than 25 minutes – all their ex’s live 2 roads away from them. I’m confused by those people. Like how can you not want to look for follies in the woods, just because?

            I support your trickery. Get him to a convenient location and then once he’s there take him to the real location. He’ll forgive you eventually.

          4. MP says:

            Alexis, someone viewing child pornography is far from being normal. The Normals I know are disgusted with child pornography. Pedophilia is a mental disorder and viewing child pornography is abuse by proxy. Child pornography is not a victimless crime.

          5. HG Tudor says:

            Well they are hardly going to admit to you that they view it are they?! However, there are many individuals who do and they are drawn from some narcissists and some normals.

          6. Asp Emp says:

            Some normals, HG? That is shocking. I learn something new every day!

          7. HG Tudor says:

            Strangers outside the circle of empathy.

          8. Asp Emp says:

            Thank you for your response, HG. Much appreciated.

          9. Leigh says:

            I agree, Asp. Not only is it shocking but its extremely disturbing.

          10. Asp Emp says:

            Leigh, hence my surprise and responding to HG’s comment……our education about people continues…..

          11. Eternity says:

            And disgusting! What is wrong with the society we live in? That is a whole other topic. Just makes me mad.

          12. MP says:

            Hi HG,

            Thank you for your response. What you said about the perpetrators coming from some narcissists and some normals is accurate I believe based on the articles I have read from looking this up. I personally believe though that this is a deviance and a big majority of people do not have any interest and do not view child pornography. I cannot find statistics on that though.
            I believe that for a Normal to use child pornography there would be other things that have led the person to that (gateway things) such as addiction to pornography. This is also alluded to by the articles I have read saying that the people caught viewing child pornography are either pedophiles or regular people that are suffering from sex addiction and addiction to pornography who were looking for increased arousal. The Normals I know do not have any red flags that I would say could lead them into being interested in child porn so I am pretty sure that they do not. I don’t consider myself more morally upright than the Normals I know. I just think that as an empath I have more traits that are susceptible to being abused or ensnared. The radius of empathy that you described confirms my real life observations about them. That’s why an N co-worker could get fuel from me by confiding in me while they would not get fuel from my husband because he tells his employees to not bring their problems to work and he’s not interested in their problems at home. But he is strongly against abuse and would defend any child he sees being abused. He also does listen to his employees who have serious problems from home and have even given financial help before as long as the confiding about problems is not habitual then he starts to mock them for being whiny about petty things. My Normal brother is the same way. He’s all about his and his wife’s hobbies and doesn’t get involved in helping others (his wife is the empath and volunteers a lot for nature conservation activities) but he never cheated on his wife and never betrayed her. They even have a joint email account. And they have been married since the 80s and they still look like they are just the same as when they were newly married because of the way they act together like they didn’t do anything through those years that would damage or decrease their bond. He would not be the type that would be ensnared by a narcissist because his boundaries are super solid. He even told our MR sister that he’s not a shoulder to cry on so she told everyone that he has Aspergers because he has no emotions and is ice cold. He jokes that he has no emotions because he’s an engineer.

            The only person I know who I think is a Normal but was caught with child porn in his computer and was jailed for it and deported to our home country after he served time is a brother of my close friend from high school. I think I’m actually more narcissistic than him as he’s just a quiet guy. But I still give him the benefit of the doubt because my friend believes he didn’t do it because he told her that it was the homeless friends he helped who used his computer for child porn without him knowing. He was letting him stay in his apartment for free and letting them use everything. So with that I just think that I don’t really know the truth.

          13. MP says:

            Hello Alexis, thank you for your response. I agree with everything that you said.

          14. Witch says:


            I completely missed child pornography and normals … guys I’m scared
            You might as well tell me hitler was a normal at this point 😢

          15. HG Tudor says:

            He was not.

          16. Asp Emp says:

            He certainly was a narcissist, one of the worst.

          17. Alexissmith2016 says:

            MP I was unable to reply directly as I’m not currently receiving notifications in WP. I do appreciate it’s not all normals who would engage in viewing child porn. But as HG enlightened us, some do. And he points out they’re hardly likely to admit to it.

            I guess because the normals have less empathy than us they may justify it in their head that they’re not actually the perpetrator. I don’t know, I’m just guessing based on conversations I’ve had with normals. Not about child porn but other subjects where they have done something bad or perhaps simply ignored something bad which I would not have, but I’m amazed at how quickly they shrug it off snd will come up with excuses as to it’s okay.

            And that’s not meant in a judgmental way either, just fact. That is how there personality is wired and mine is not.

            But the fact remains some normals do engage in viewing child porn. You’re absolutely right it is not victimless at all and they are guilty100%

          18. Witch says:


            I was being dramatic because I almost died reading about normals and child pornography. I know Hitler was a narcissist.
            Who’s watching how to become a tyrant on Netflix?

          19. Violetta says:


            Okay, I can see why narcs like kiddie-porn: power over the helpless, but what’s in it for normals? Curiosity? The thrill of defying a taboo, in this case, forbidden underripe fruit? Following a Kulturally Kewl narc’s example (i.e., those shots of Thylaine Blondeau weren’t suggestive; they were Art)?

          20. HG Tudor says:


          21. Violetta says:

            Just figured out another reason to hate Normals: they can apparently turn empathy on and off at will.

            Narcs don’t have it at all, though to survive, they may have to fake it. I get that.

            Empaths can’t turn it off, although it may be wasted on exploitive people or depleted when they finally go Supernova on somebody’s ass.

            I think the Lintons are normal. No empathy for Heathcliff, although he was originally an adopted son, not a servant: empathy for Catherine only when they realize that under the dirt, she’s the daughter of a local landowner and they’ve seen her in Church on Sundays. Isabella, who originally compared him to a “gypsy who stole [her] tame pheasant” and seemed indifferent to his mistreatment at Christmas, fancies herself in love with grown-up Heathcliff only because he cleans up well. Far from regretting her childish lack of compassion, she very likely doesn’t remember it.

            I fucking hate Normals.

          22. A Victor says:

            Every single young man I know and many men, even from my church, have looked at stuff online. The purveyors of this stuff seek out ways to get it in front of them. Once there, I have read that it can become addictive from one experience. It often leads to more and more depraved things, the thrill runs out so they have to seek out new stuff. Children are one of those things, I know of young men who have viewed this, we mothers talk. It is heartbreaking. But I would imagine that not all of these men are narcs, some must be normals, there are just too many.

          23. Witch says:

            “ Pleasure”

            I want to die 🤢

          24. Violetta says:


            “I want to die”

            I want to kill.

          25. Witch says:

            Once I spoke to a man who said he is being investigated by the police for possessing child pornography. He said he justifies watching it because these children are not British children, they are from the Philippines so he doesn’t see it as that bad because he’s not contributing to the crime in his country….
            What in the mental gymnastics is going on here!?
            Normals don’t need to have emotional empathy to understand harm intellectually so for me it still doesn’t make any sense as to why you wouldn’t at least know it’s wrong and seek help.

          26. HG Tudor says:

            Absence of emotional empathy. Either none at all or outside the radius of emotional empathy

          27. Asp Emp says:

            Thank you for that explanation, HG. It is pretty obvious that there is ‘deflection’ going on with the so-called “justification” (whether it is someone with narcissism, alexithymia or something else). Such a few words from you can make it into a big ‘picture’ of understanding more about behaviours of people.

          28. Witch says:

            I’m context I was referring to no emotional empathy for strangers

          29. MP says:

            Hello Witch, regarding the man you were referring to, I agree with H.G., it’s either he has complete lack of empathy (narc) or lack of empathy for strangers (normal). Even a narc can say that as a form of triangulation to justify his abusive behavior. Only knowing the pattern of behavior in his life can give a better conclusion on whether he’s a narc or a normal in my opinion.

            I just want to say, I’m pretty sure Normals have various traits. I would not say the Normals I know are not as good people as I am. In a lot of ways they are even better than me. High concentration of empathy doesn’t mean we always do the right thing. It just means that empathy affects us more intensely and it can tend to cause us to put others ahead of us. People who don’t have intense empathy to be an empath doesn’t necessarily mean they will harm strangers. It depends on their individual makeup in terms of character, ethics, pattern of choices in life, etc. The Normals I know have high moral code. But I have also encountered those that are low lives like the man you are referring to but I would never have one like that be a part of my life.

          30. BC30 says:


            What in the actual fuck? That makes no sense. Most normals don’t derive pleasure from raping children, so what gives?

            What angers also are those who turn a blind eye.

            Ok, now my emotions are sky high!! I hate these sensations, but my empathy compels it.

        2. A Victor says:

          Aha, be manipulative in other words!!! I like it!!! Laughing!

        3. Alexissmith2016 says:

          @witch we are extra for sure! I love being an empath. And I do love the attention which narcs give even if it’s not real, they still believe it is so I’ll take it lol.

          lol yeah it’s worth the trickery! He whinged a bit last time when he realised, but also had a bloody good!. I bought him an extra couple of drinks to help stop the whinging hahaha something I would not do for any N ever! Especially as HG has taught me that Ns need the fuel, therefore they can pay for it!

        4. Alexissmith2016 says:

          I agree witch, with your most recent comment, well all of them but I’m referring to your most recent ahaha

          But crikey he thinks it’s okay if they’re not British?

          I totally hear and on a cognitive level understand when HG says that for a ‘normal’ (and by normal we refer to those who have a roughly equal amount of narc/empathic traits) it is outside of their emotional range for empathy. On an emotional level however it’s hard for me to comprehend? Why would someone be less important because they live further away? It truly blows my mind.

          The only way I can relate is that if I saw someone fall over in front of me, I’d rush to help them up. If they were in Scotland it would take me so long someone else would be better placed to help them. But the act of witnessing something so cruel just because they’re not in close proximity is hard to get your head around.

          1. Violetta says:


            Probably also race. Like Nazis or Southern slaveowners were good family men, who just happened to like mistreating and killing people of other races.

          2. Another Cat says:

            Yeah, and I reflect on the school yard bullies. They were not all narcs, of course.

            So there were others too.


    2. Leigh says:

      Hi Alexis, your comment really got me thinking. Am I capable of wishing harm on another human being? I never thought so in the past. Now, I’m not so sure. Aboit 9 months ago, my husband had a cancer scare. For a moment, I felt relief. More and more lately, I wish he would suffer. I don’t want to make him suffer by my hand. I want the universe to take him out. I want my hands to be clean. I know that makes me sound like a monster. it took me a really long time to get to that point. 35 years ro be exact. Last September he threw something at my head. He missed and said to me, “If I wanted to hit you. I would have hit you. Now shut the fuck up.” This man thinks he loves me. I wouldn’t have been able to do that to someone I hate, let alone someone I love. It was in that moment, that my empathy for him really started to erode.

      The truth is, I really can’t harm him. I still have empathy for the man. I still feel bad for him. Its probably why I can’t leave. Sometimes, I do wish bad things though. I also wish for a time when there are peaceful and calm days without him.

      1. A Victor says:

        Leigh, I said this to my mom a couple hours ago, I just want peace, a peaceful life, low expectations. I will not have that as long as I live here, with her. Yesterday I told a friend that I had not seen since Covid began that my mother had withheld the morphine from him, my friend began crying before I even finished the story. I was stunned. But it is these things and so much more that are right here, raw, all the time. I think it has slowed my effort to learn about narcissism and that even makes me angry. I cannot just have an unclouded view as long as I am here. I don’t know what to do, I am feeling very stuck. If I could just lose the stuck feeling, even if my circumstances didn’t change, I think I’d feel better. But I don’t know how.

        1. Leigh says:

          AV, the stuck feeling is the worst part. It feels like there’s no way out. I keep hoping that one day I’ll find peace. I hope you find peace too.

          1. A Victor says:

            Thanks Leigh, I hope the same for both of us. I responded to another comment you put somewhere else, about your daughter, I am really feeling sad for you tonight.

          2. Empath007 says:

            Hi Leigh,

            I’ve always been one to say I don’t judge people for staying – sometimes to devil we know is better then the one we don’t.

            What could you focus on in your current situation that would make things better for you ?

            You’ve decided to stay for right now – so perhaps daydreaming about leaving is not the answer.

            Are there ways you can improve where you’re at today ? In the moment.

            Take it one step at a time – projecting years into the future is only aggravating your anxiety. Try to practice mindfulness. Maybe mediation – a new class – some new thing you do for yourself that no on in your family knows about…

            One day you’ll be on your own. But today you’re not. So focus on what you can do today.

          3. Leigh says:

            Empath007, thank you. That’s actually very helpful. One day at a time.

          4. Another Cat says:

            Really sorry about not finding the correct reply button Leigh.

            So sorry about your daughter. Must be very heavy finding out about her.


        2. Asp Emp says:

          AV, I can understand you saying you feel ‘stuck’. You went through a lot last year and the fact TTU withheld the morphine – is traumatic in itself. ET can take a very long time to process yet you are aware of where you are ‘at’ presently. I think in your case, it is the fact TTU is still in the same house as you that is the ‘block’ that is really slowing down things for you. It is hindering your progress. Is there a way, at some point, that TTU can be moved to somewhere else and have someone else to look after her “needs” (ie care home)? Have you talked about this with your children (now that they are also learning about narcissism)? I am aware that I am not in similar situation as you. I am thinking of you, AV 🙂

          1. A Victor says:

            Hi Asp Emp, I agree, TTU’s presence is holding back my progress. I have plans to move her once she becomes unable for me to care for but that could be years off, she doesn’t “need” any help yet, except that she is a Victim cadre narcissist who wants to be taken care of. I think your suggestion to talk with my kids is a great one, I had not thought of that with the care home idea in mind, just to see what they think. Thank you for the thoughts, this day has been an emotional one, for some reason, and these kind comments are very helpful. One on here today has had me in tears, a different day and it may not have. Did you find the comment I wrote to you about the Chihuahua that I had to put down? He wasn’t even my dog but today I had to go back to the vets to pick something up and it was all I could do to contain the tears until I got out of there, much too soon. Don’t know really why. Hoping tomorrow is better. Have a good night, or day, Asp Emp! And thanks again.

          2. Asp Emp says:

            AV, glad to see that you are considering talking with your kids RE: TTU. It’s either a care home or a very small one bed flat for her. As you say, she does not need “help”. I know it is not easy but ‘detachment’ of your guilt, emotions where TTU is concerned. You have to put your health first.

            Yes, I think I responded RE: the dog / vet. At the time you did not appear to be that upset about it. Now that you had to return to the vets and it invoked your emotions about the dog.

            I hope that you have less emotional ‘triggers’ to be able to move forward. Sometimes things can get a bit too much to ‘handle’. It happens and your responses are normal.

            Thank you, AV, for the night / morning wishes. It was morning my time. Hope you have a good day too. 🙂

          3. A Victor says:

            I was trying not to be too upset about that dog, I do miss him though. It is odd, I am not a dog person, I wasn’t his “official” owner, but, he was with me for a long time after my daughter moved out and couldn’t take him, so I did get attached. I responded about TTU in another comment. Thanks for the reassurance of my normality with regard to my emotional responses, sometimes I’m not sure. I attribute that to more gaps in my knowledge as a result of being an ACON, so I don’t take your words lightly.

            I find it fun that many of you are just getting up when I am just going to sleep! 🙂

          4. Asp Emp says:

            AV, I am more than happy to help / support where you may need it. RE: the dog, yes, you would get attached. That is normal. You miss having them around. I know. I understand. Just remembering my dog still gives me a moment or two of sadness, yet, it is nearly 2 years. God. I loved that dog. So much easier than people! (LOL).

            I can tell when you are up / down with your ET. I reach out when I see it. I know you appreciate the support you get from me & others on here. You will get there, you know that.

            I still laugh at the TTU and it’s ‘creation’. LOL. x

          5. A Victor says:

            Aw Asp Emp, that is so kind, I did not realize I was so transparent but I do really appreciate the support from you and others here. Thank you for reaching out when you see it, that really made my day, which is almost over, but I will hold it through tomorrow and beyond. Yes, I still laugh about the whole TTU creation also, and it is good to laugh!

          6. Asp Emp says:

            AV, it is fine, absolutely fine. I do not like to see others being affected and getting ‘stuck’ because I have been there. I am just as resolved as others on this blog to ensure I can do what I can to support where and when it’s needed. RE: about the ‘balance’ you say in your other comment (I have joined the three ‘convos’ together) – it is easier for me to ‘see’ because my own ET is in a very good place. I shall tell you a little ‘secret’……when I am in a pissed off ‘mode’ (laughing here) – I tend to ‘draft’ up on a word document and then review it later or next day before amending it or not, posting it. Or, sometimes, it’s ‘ah, fk it, I’ll post it’…..so we all have our ‘moments’. RE: your words “I too am glad we can change, very glad for that” – remind yourself of those words when you feel ‘down’, your own words of empowerment. Take it easy AV x

          7. A Victor says:

            Ah yes, I would do well to write something on Word and wait before posting sometimes. Thank you! I will try to implement that plan. Thank you for the reminder to remind myself that I can change also, that is a thing that can bring me up for sure. I aspire to being in a position of helping others, as you do, you are my role model now, along with others, thank you! Thank you for pulling the conversations together again also! 🙂

          8. Asp Emp says:

            AV, you are more than welcome, your words are much appreciated 🙂

          9. Leigh says:

            I just saw this about your daughter’s doggy. I’m so sorry. Its not easy saying goodbye to our loved ones, even if they are our furry loved ones. I hope you’re starting to feel better.

          10. A Victor says:

            Thank you Leigh. I feel like every loss since my dad has caused me to grieve him again too. I did not expect to be so hit by that dog’s death. I am feeling a little better but my ET has been high since the weekend which is not helping. Anyway, I am thinking about you a lot and have my fingers crossed about your daughter’s NDC, that is a truly big issue. The waiting time is not easy, I hope you can find some way to relax for the duration.

          11. Leigh says:

            AV, for me the narc detector is a formality. I can see the toxicity now. Its ok. It is what it is. Now, I just have to adjust. I remember when you were thinking about doing it for your son. You struggled with what you could write. I had no issue coming up with something to say. Who knows, maybe I’m wrong. Maybe Mr. Tudor will tell me I’m bat shit crazy and its all in my head. LOL!

      2. Alexissmith2016 says:

        Well I totally get why you would feel that way Leigh. You are still very much caught up in the situation. I admire you hugely and I guess my circumstances help me a lot. I’m not caught up with an N on a daily basis and any interactions I do have with them is empty and meaningless and very short lived. I can’t imagine how you cope ans it’s perfectly fine to feel the way you do, you’ve suffered hugely at his hands. My friend purports to love his brother and so that makes no sense to me. I’d be really, really happy for a person I loved to have something I did not, even if it was something I desperately wanted for myself. Of course I may still want what they have but I’d be really happy for them they had it. In his case, hair.

        Your husband is horrible Leigh and I truly hope you find the courage to leave him. He will suffer then.

        1. Leigh says:

          Thank you Alexis. Yes, my husband is horrible and he will suffer when I’m gone. I can’t wait for that day.

      3. Asp Emp says:

        Leigh, can I ask you, when he does things like throwing things at you & saying nasty things to you – do you not feel fear? Is he getting worse in his actions towards you (ie, has it got worse over time)?

        This is one example – a very valid reason – to leave him or get him to leave. Use the Law because this type of ‘violence’ would be classed as ‘Domestic Violence’ in UK.

        One day, he could go ‘too far’ and do some serious harm towards you?

        1. Leigh says:

          Asp, ironically, I’m not afraid of him at all. When he does things like that, I say to him, “does it make you feel like a man to go after a little girl like me?” I scream and yell too. It probably fuels him.

          Yes, he has gotten worse as he got older. Yes, it would be considered domestic violence here as well.

          He is a narcissist so he definitely could go too far.

          I know, it’s time to make the move.

          1. Alexissmith2016 says:

            Leigh, what do you think it would take for you to leave him?

          2. Leigh says:

            Alexis, that’s the million dollar question. I don’t know what it would take. I don’t know my breaking point. I think ideally, I’d want him to leave me.

          3. alexissmith2016 says:

            Well of course I don’t want you to reach breaking point. But nor do I want you to stay and suffer, or to let that little twat have the pleasure of leaving you.

          4. Leigh says:

            “That little twat” I fucking love it! Thank you! I needed a good laugh.

          5. alexissmith2016 says:

            Leigh, out of interest, what sort of narc is your husband? Apologies if you’ve written this elsewhere in the blog.

          6. Leigh says:

            Hi Alexis, I’ve been writing alot so its ok if you’ve missed a comment. There’s so many of them, lol.
            Both my husband and my mother are victim narcissists.

          7. alexissmith2016 says:

            Ah yes, I seem to remember now. Thanks Leigh. Well I guess from some of your other comments you can feel pretty confident he hasn’t cheated then. I can’t imagine what it would be like to be with a victim. I watched Mrs Lowry. Have you seen it? I’d be intrigued to know if that’s what he’s like? She was bed ridden though so perhaps she wasn’t a true victim but had taken on that role because of her situation, as we know Ns can be very adaptable.

          8. Leigh says:

            Alexis, I’ve never watched Mrs. Lowry. I’ll have to check it out. My husband isn’t bedridden but he might as well be because he barely does anything. When I listened to Mr. Tudor’s HG Mauls Victim Narcissist, I couldn’t believe how much of the criteria my husband met.

            I can’t imagine him having an affair for two reasons. First, he only leaves the house for work and he’s only gone for 3 or 4 hours a day. He has seasonal employment. Up until recently, he didn’t even own a vehicle. He made a sibling buy him a truck so he could work. The truck is a real work vehicle though so he can’t use it go out and socialize. He doesn’t want to go out and socialize though. He’d rather sit in the backyard in the shed and get high all day.

            Second, what woman would want him? He has nothing to offer. I met him when I was 14 and I thought he was the best thing since sliced bread, My father had just left 5 months before. I wasn’t thinking clearly. Somehow he managed to ensnare me early on. If I had met him in my twenties, there is no way I would have even been interested. Even then he had nothing to offer.

            Could there have been one night stands or maybe even a short-lived tryst here and there? Of course, that’s always a possibility. Could there have been a long term affair? I can’t imagine any woman who had any substance would want him. They would recognize pretty quickly that he has nothing.

            He’s slovenly. He’s uneducated. He barely works. He complains incessantly. Although he might be able to find a woman who feels sorry for him.

          9. alexissmith2016 says:

            Oh god Leigh he sound like he needs a rocket up his bum or something! What a despicable man!

            Mrs Lowry is a movie based on the relationship between LS Lowery (an artist famous for his matchstick men). It’s very good snd shows the relationship between an N and a PrImary NIP very well indeed. Well I believe it does. Quite whether Lowry himself was an n or nit I don’t know but he certainly wasn’t depicted as one.

            Your husband would drive me absolute nuts! Honestly he’s very lucky to have had you all this time.

            I’m sorry you met him so young when you were ill informed. What was he like at that age? Did he use lots of pity plays? Or was he a bit more mainstream at that age?

          10. Leigh says:

            Alexis, he was cocky, over confident and arrogant. He thought he was the best thing since sliced bread. He’s always thought that you measure success by not having a boss and not having to answer to anyone. Yeah, that’s great if you’re making money. He never makes enough to take care of himself. Especially with his smoking habits (cigarettes and marijuana).

            He has always had some sort of ailment from pretty early on. He’s had headaches, backaches, knee & shoulder injuries. In fact, the reason I married him was because he needed surgery and he didn’t have insurance. But he’s successful because he doesn’t have a boss.

            He’s a chronic complainer and he sulks incessantly. Yet, he constantly tells me, you know I don’t complain. I can’t respond when he says that because I will lose my shit. One time on social media, one of his friends say to to him, “Do you ever stop complaining?” Another friend has said, “Enough already,” People have reached out to me to see if he’s ok. But he never complains.

            He’s the downtrodden, the martyr. Everyone treats him so terribly when he’s done so much for everyone.

            I can go on an on but then I’m journaling again and I’m not supposed to do that, lol.

            One day I’m going to walk out the door and never turn back. One day!

          11. Asp Emp says:

            Leigh, that guy sounds a lot like the MRN…..bloody hell, “poor” things, ahh dearie me. NOT. Can’t believe marriage occurred because HE needed surgery?! Shocking. But not surprising. RE: about your leaving, plan it right.

            BTW I saw your comment RE: online affair. Forget that for now lass. Concentrate. On your future.

          12. Leigh says:

            Asp, I have no desire to start an online affair. AV was asking me about my husband and had I considered that he might have had an online affair.

          13. Asp Emp says:

            BTW Leigh, by all means, ‘journal’ on this site. I am quite sure that is allowed. 🙂

          14. HG Tudor says:

            Don’t do so, it’s counter productive. This is not a place to wallow and journaling is wallowing. It serves no constructive purpose and results in several downsides at this juncture. Action is required, not empty lament and redundant wallowing.

          15. Asp Emp says:

            Thanks for that, HG

          16. Leigh says:

            Alexis & Asp,
            I don’t mind sharing my story. Especially if someone else sees it and sees that there not alone or finally feels validated. For so long, the puzzle pieces didn’t fit and now they finally do. If I can help someone else fit those puzzle pieces, I’m happy to.

            On the other hand though, Mr. Tudor is right. I can’t keep wallowing and complaining, especially if I’m not going to do anything about it. What good is that? It really is time to act.

          17. Sounds like he’s falling apart Leigh. It’s interesting how his behaviour was a little different when he was younger. I guess it was always lurking though and as you’d say didn’t take long to come to the fore.

            I wonder what his friends are like? Mid rangers or empaths? I can’t imagine many normals would stick around. It’s good his friends call him out but his narcissism seems to cope well believing all he has done is help them snd never complain lol. Crikey, I’m not physically violent but o reckon he could push me to the brink hahahah

            Yes no need to journal. Apologies if I encouraged that but I find your story very interesting. We’ll all be here supporting you when you’re ready x

          18. alexissmith2016 says:

            You can figure out yourself but you can do that alone. Xxx

      4. BC30 says:

        Not a monster, just human and hurt.

        I was thinking about my plan this morning. You’re not alone in with these thoughts.

        1. Leigh says:

          Thank you BC30.

          1. Sweetest Perfection says:

            Leigh, sorry my unsolicited jumping in this thread. I wanted to reaffirm that your feelings are totally justified and don’t make you less of an Empath. I desired many times something bad happened to my dad when I was a kid, not necessarily death, but something to help
            him mend his hurtful behavior. I would like to ask you, if you allow me to, the reasons why you stay with your husband. I interact with victims of domestic violence and know that most times the reason is fear of the unknown or fear of being alone. I know you are not scared of him, but I also know from your comments you do not feel happy near him, and want to be freed. Also, the fact you are not scared does not mean he cannot hurt you seriously, even accidentally. Please, understand I don’t judge. I would love to help you in any form I can and at least I want you to know you have all my support. I would just like to hear (read) your thoughts.

          2. Sweetest Perfection says:

            *Sorry for, I meant.

          3. Leigh says:

            Hi Sweet P, I don’t mind answering questions. I know there are lot of victim that come to this blog who are desperate. If I can show them that they aren’t alone by sharing my story, I’m happy to do it. I might not be able to save myself but maybe I can save someone else.

            I stay with my husband because I’m an idiot. I’m sorry, I had to say that. I’m afraid to be alone. I crave it. Am I afraid of the unknown? Most definitely! I don’t know if that’s it either. I’m going to be really honest right now. I don’t want to be the one who leaves because then I’m the bad guy. If I’m the bad guy, then he wins. That’s my pride rearing its ugly little head.

            The other thing is that it feels safe. If I go out into the big, bad world, there will be sharks everywhere. I’m afraid I will become a recluse. I already don’t want to be around people.

            I take two steps forward and then stop. I know the only way to true freedom is to face this head on but sometimes I’d rather pretend it doesn’t exist.

          4. Sweetest Perfection says:

            Leigh, thanks so much for answering and for being honest. I disagree with you. You are definitely not an idiot. Like I said in my previous comment, fear of being alone/fear of the unknown added to your habit of living with that person’s disorder are the most common reasons victims of domestic violence don’t dare leave their partners (add to the list the vicious cycle of hot/cold treatment, or intermittent gratification). The way I see it is like remaining in a tank swimming with a shark in it for fear of jumping in the ocean and *just potentially * running into unfamiliar sharks. But I’m not inside your relationship and of course it’s easy to give an advice when you’re not suffering the situation. I make lists when I’m divided or confused about something. Why don’t you try to make a list of the reasons why you want to leave versus the good things you don’t want to lose if you do? Ultimately it’s your decision, but please never never blame yourself for living with a toxic person. You’re not to blame, he is.

          5. A Victor says:

            Leigh, I stayed in my marriage for the reason you state, in part anyway, I didn’t want to be the bad guy. He smeared me anyway so anyone who listened to him thought I was the bad guy already. Some thought he was the hero for leaving what must’ve been a horrific situation living with me. I don’t think in these things there really is any way to win. I also think that I (only speaking for myself here) was not wise to base my actions on what others might think of me, except my children, but they knew the truth, and they still do know the truth. In my case I would’ve been wiser to leave him sooner, if for no other reason than to protect myself and the kids. Others did come to see it eventually. What happened over time was that my life and his life were seen by others.
            Eventually I literally had many who initially thought he left because I was bad who later apologized and we are on good terms even now. We all have to do what is right for us, I am not trying to persuade you in any direction, I am only sharing my experience because one of my reasons was the same as what you said. Also, the world does seem scary sometimes, I agree, more when I was initially here, less so now. I am getting tougher, I think, most of the time anyway.

          6. Asp Emp says:

            Leigh, you can save yourself. Only you can do it for yourself. We, on the blog, are giving your encouragement to do so. It has been months.

            You are not an idiot. I can totally understand why you’d say that about yourself. You have seen other people on the blog saying they are also afraid to be alone. Narcissists are too. But do not let that be a “reason” why you should stay with your husband. Of course, you are afraid of the ‘unknown’ Aren’t we all? We all are afraid of it – not that everyone actually says so. ‘Pride’ gets in the way of anyone actually “admitting” it. Why? Because of the influence that people are ‘conditioned’ to assume so, society does that, so we, as individuals have ‘learned’ that. On the other hand, humans are also ‘social’ animals (sorry, HG, to have to state it as such). Sheep huddling in a field comes to my mind (laughing)……fkg hell. My brain-wiring! LOL.

            You are not the bad guy if you left. Far from it. You’d be the better ‘person’. I am not saying that a narcissist is a bad person, they are the way they are.

            Your husband wins. If you stay. Or he stays. Or, I should actually say, narcissism wins. So, effectively, by my saying that, should one person ‘allow’ narcissism to win over their individuality? Win over their right to be who and what they are? Such a conundrum. Such a contradiction.

            I also understand why you say it feels ‘safe’. It is what you are used to. You’ve been married a long time. Have children together. It’s become your ‘norm’.

            Yes, it may be a big bad world, in your words. I have faced it. Other empaths on this blog have also faced it. The ‘sharks’ are not everywhere – you have reminded me of HG’s ‘Why Do I See Narcissists Everywhere?’.

            Instead of burying your head in the sand, so to speak, maybe you should actually take a few days off from home and spend them with this friend who lives near the ocean and have some long and good chats with them. They know you better than anyone on this blog does. They will tell you constructively what they think they would do if they were in your shoes. They may even tell you whether you should stay or go. At the end of the day and ultimately, the decision is yours, yours alone. Stuff your husband, have some time off from him.

            You do need to be the one to decide for once and all – to stay in your marriage or leave your marriage.

            I truly do understand it is a very hard decision to make. Yet, at the end of the day, you only live one life. Life is too short. Too.

            The only ‘duty’ you have is to you, yourself. Not your children. Not your husband. You.

            RE: My whole comment here – this is why I suggested you have a consult with HG. HG will not do any persuading, that is not his goal, he does not do any ‘mind-bending’, you have heard his voice on audios. His goal is to assist you in your logical thinking / understanding. He has advised you on occasion for a while. He is actually a very nice man but not the type to cry with you when you are crying your eyes out. He may come across as clinical and that is why his work works. I am pretty confident that you will come away from a consult with HG, thinking and feeling quite different than you have been for quite some time. I can tell you right now, it would not be a waste of your money or time. At all. You will not regret it. You may not be as confused either. I would also strongly recommend that you forget what HG ‘is’ and see him as a friend that you can talk to. Ok, I am going to post this before I change my mind…….

            (thank you, HG, for moderating the long comment)

          7. Leigh says:

            Hi Asp, Your comment about being months, made me chuckle. LOL! That’s why I’m an idiot because I don’t make the move. In all seriousness though, this whole thing with my daughter is really throwing me for a loop. I really need to process it. I remember others making comments about struggling with finding something to put on the narc detector for someone they were questioning if they were a narcissist or not. I had no problem filling out the questionnaire. None. The more I thought about it, the more things I could have added too. That’s a little scary.

            I will consider doing a consult with Mr. Tudor. First I will wait for the answer about my daughter and then go from there.

            As for being afraid to be alone, that’s not what I meant to say. Although, maybe my subconscious does feel afraid to be alone. Right now, I crave being alone. Its all I want.

          8. Asp Emp says:

            Atta girl, Leigh. RE: about your daughter. I get it. Great to know that you’ll consider the consult. It is completely different when you can control your own ‘environment’ in order to ‘decompress’ from the outside world to rest your mind (even if it is with a really good friend). Even though I found Covid Lockdowns isolating, it did give me the ‘space’ to do what I have achieved this past year. Ok, Leigh – thank you for your response x

          9. Sweetest Perfection says:

            Leigh, thanks for clarifying. I thought it was strange you said I’m afraid of being alone followed by “I crave it” haha. When we say fear it’s not actually fear, but dislike of solitude. I for example don’t like living alone. Yes, I enjoy being alone for a couple of days or for some hours but I am my best when I live with someone as long as the relationship is healthy of course. I agree with Eternity; it makes no sense to feel like the bad guy for leaving a toxic situation with the real bad guy. But I’m not trying to convince you of leaving. I thought that’s what you wanted. He’s not gonna change but you can. I just care about you.

          10. Leigh says:

            Sweet P, I do want to leave. I don’t love him. He disgusts me. I think he’s vile. I don’t think I’m afraid to live alone. I feel like that’s what I want yet I don’t make the move. My brain is twisted and I know its because of all the toxicity in my life.

          11. Sweetest Perfection says:

            Leigh, it’s very understandable. You just answered yourself in your comment. You want to leave. You are the one who doesn’t go after what you want. You have the key to this. There’s no set time. You have the power for what you do, when you want to do it and how. You have more control than you think.

          12. Leigh says:

            Thank you Sweet P. You’re right, I don’t go after what I want or what I need. It’s hardwired in me to take care of others and not worry about myself.

            I’m getting closer to my breaking point. This new revelation that my daughter might be a narcissist has made me realize that I don’t want to protect him anymore.

          13. Asp Emp says:

            Leigh, RE: your first paragraph, that is understandable and that is the empath in you and the fact you brought up your children (now adults). Mothers (that is, non-narcissist mothers!) tend to put their children first, as it’s ‘maternal’ (hence the built-in / hard-wired as you say).

            By being faced with potential further ‘realizations’ making you ‘see’ with more clarity (I would suggest) is giving you reasons to review circumstances where he is concerned. Or, is it your maternal response for your daughter? Either way, we are here for you. I apologise if my previous (and long) comment to you was a bit too ‘heavy’ but I hope you can see how much I wanted to help you, because I do care (even though it may not necessarily come across as such at times). 🙂

          14. Sweetest Perfection says:

            Dear Leigh, I was reading a book and I came through this quote that reminded me of our conversation: “Fear does not prevent death. It prevents life.” I also need to apply it to myself.

          15. Eternity says:

            Leigh ,
            You are not an idiot hun, and you are definitely not alone in this situation.
            Please don’t be the one to wait for him to leave. I did the same but it never happened. I guess I didn’t break down as an appliance or something who knows and who the hell cares.
            You are not the bad guy , you are the good guy. Honestly wouldn’t you rather be alone than be with him? You can save yourself, your life, your sanity. I understand the craving part because I felt it too. I didn’t want to break to up my family, but I had to for the sake of having freedom. I left and I wish I would have done it way sooner. You can do this you really can you just need the confidence and the will power to do so.
            Please just take it easy and don’t be so hard on yourself. I am being very honest with you. I feel your pain and I don’t even know you.
            Just take your time. Read the book Getting Out, HG will help you, and you can prepare. I read it also. Things will get easier for you. Don’t worry hugs. It seems hard but when you do this you will be giving the another person the same advice that I did.
            Hugs 🤗

          16. Leigh says:

            Sweet P, I meant to say I’m not afraid to be alone.

          17. A Victor says:

            Sweetest Perfection, I had the same thing with my mom. I used to daydream about “having” to go live with my godparents, an aunt and uncle that I loved dearly. And always hoped for my parents to divorce and us kids be put with dad. It helps to know that these are not unusual thoughts for kids, I always felt a bit guilty, especially about the first scenario.

          18. Sweetest Perfection says:

            AV, my childhood exactly!!!!! I fantasized about moving in with my grandparents. Or about my parents divorcing so that we could get rid of my dad. They’re still together in their own toxicity!

          19. A Victor says:

            SP, are both your parents narcissists? And I need to amend my previous statement, I didn’t always feel guilty for the thought, I sometimes felt guilty for not feeling guilty for the thought. We can’t win. Haha.

          20. Sweetest Perfection says:

            I’m sorry AV I just saw your question. For some reason WordPress has stopped alerting me of new comments. I don’t think my mom is a narc. Probably co-dependent.

          21. A Victor says:

            No problem at all! I know WP is sometimes finicky. I only asked because our stories are quite similar it seems. I suppose that could be said for many ACONs. I am glad you had a non narc parent, maybe it’s easier then. Though I don’t know if my kids would say so! 🙂

          22. Sweetest Perfection says:

            I must say though I am certain my dad is a narc, I can’t stop loving him, he recently hurt his knee and couldn’t move much for a while. When I was younger, we both shared our passion for comic books. He had a friend who had a very expensive collection of comic books from the 1930’s-1950’s, and he allowed me to read them VERY CAREFULLY, making very clear that if I ruined some there would be mayhem. So I bought him a collected series of one of those comics for his recovery. He partly appreciated it, as the narc he is. It’s ok, I’ll be able to read it when I visit, win-win!

          23. A Victor says:

            SP, that is such a great story, thank you for sharing it! I loved my narc dad too. Pretty much all of my few positive childhood memories involve him. He also exposed us to the finer things in life, what little he did. But I read many of his books as a young girl even

          24. A Victor says:

            Oops, hit send by accident. Anyway, he was fiercely intelligent and though he did not encourage college, he did encourage reading, I am grateful for that to this day. Thanks for sharing, it is always fun to get to know people a bit better.

          25. Sweetest Perfection says:

            Same with my dad and all his family. My dad did encourage college (more like demanded rather than encourage) but he actually helped me find my true passion because I wasn’t sure what to study. My uncle (his older brother) is a renowned poet, so I guess I have the love for words in my DNA. Thank you AV, it’s very nice to see so many similarities between our dads. I feel like a traitor for saying I love my dad even after knowing what he is, but I also feel like a traitor for talking about him in the blog. I’m a mess, I know.

          26. A Victor says:

            SP, I don’t feel like a traitor for loving my dad and for saying it, I am an empath, what else could there be? But, I do not feel the same about my mother and I occasionally feel some guilt about that, but not very often. Still an empath, one who has been so hurt by this person that “feeling” love doesn’t seem to be an option. I act loving, I am here, I help when she asks etc. But I have no loving feelings for her. I am curious to see if I will even be sad once she is gone. But, in reality, very unlikely that I will go through with cremating her, it is my evil pleasure to think of doing so at this time, my form of revenge. But knowing she does not want that, likely I won’t, so there is that. I do see you as a mess, but rather a very stable person, wise in all things narcissist. 🙂

          27. Sweetest Perfection says:

            AV, is your mother a narc too? My mom is not and I adore her, though sometimes you can tell she has been “tainted” from living with my dad for so long. I am sorry your mom hurt you so deeply.

          28. A Victor says:

            Yes, my mother is the worst narc in my life, past or present. My ex is right up there too and then my dad. The summer narc was too short lived to be too horrible, and a long way away so I never met him. There have been others but not influential enough to discuss really.

          29. Sweetest Perfection says:

            AV, yes, I feel the same. My passion for reading comes from my dad’s genes and I will always be grateful for that.

          30. A Victor says:

            Oh no!! I do NOT see you as a mess!! So sorry, proofreading is important!!

          31. Sweetest Perfection says:

            AV, hahaha!!! I’m glad to know you don’t agree with my previous statement about myself!

          32. A Victor says:


          33. A Victor says:

            Hahaha!! That is so funny!!!

          34. Duchessbea says:

            It is always best to do what you feel is right for you. Other peoples opinions should not matter. At the end of the day, you are the person who has to walk in your shoes, whatever you feel you have to do to be the best version of you, do that. Never feel like you have to explain yourself to other people because at the end of the day, they won’t hear you, they will only hear what they themselves want to hear.
            Don’t refer to yourself as an idiot because you are going to stay living with your husband. You are not an idiot. You are miles ahead of him. You know what he is and through the advice from HG, you are more adept at being able to handle him. I’m sure he has noticed some changes in you since you have been getting advice from HG, and is racking his brains as to what is going on and where this new you has come from.
            I have read a lot of your comments on here and you are always so open and honest. I say Kudos to you as you are a very strong person.

          35. Leigh says:

            Thank you for your kind words Duchess. I appreciate your understanding. I know I’m not an idiot, lol. The truth is I really do need to leave him. The people here on the blog want what’s best for me. I know they are coming from a place of caring.

          36. Empath007 says:


            I had a thought… knowing what you know now about narcissim. Would your husband having an affair be helpful to you ? I know that sounds crazy … but think about it

            A) while theres a good chance he won’t leave you (as you are one of the most important aspects to his facade). There’s also a chance he might if he’s excited about the new prospect… if so…. then
            B) he’d be the one to leave and in doing so
            C) look like the asshole so you don’t have too… and if all that fails then
            D) at least the affair would keep him out of the house and out of your hair for a while until it’s inevitable demise.

            Perhaps another woman is what your relationship needs so you can get some peace and quiet – just act like you don’t even notice it’s happening. ! He’ll hate that !

            Because he’s a narcissist I assume you’ve already dealt with some painful infedelity – why not spin this trait of his around and use it to your advantage ?

          37. Leigh says:

            Empath007, are you in my head??? You don’t understand how much I wish for this scenario. It would be fantastic. From your lips to God’s ears.

            I’ve never suspected once that he has cheated on me. I actually would be shocked. He honestly believes that he’s the perfect husband and someone as perfect as him would never cheat. He thinks our marriage is EPIC and rock solid. He’s delusional.

            I do hope for a day where I’m not meeting the Prime Aims anymore and he finds someone else who will.

          38. Dave says:

            It’s none of my business but I just wanted to jump in and say:
            I like Empath007”s plan!
            Yes make it easy for him to go down that path.

          39. Leigh says:

            Thank you Dave. If only I had a magic wand!

          40. Empath007 says:

            Hi Leigh ! Haha ! Well I often read your comments and think… that sounds like something I would say …
            Or think the thought patterns are eerily similar, so … great minds do think alike !

            No affair ?! How
            Is that possible ?? I wonder if he was really good at hiding it ?

            H.G. – is it ever possible a narc doesn’t cheat ?

            And Leigh … time to take mAtters in your own hands… time to befriend some lovely empaths and bring them around your husband and let the narcissism do its thing 🙌🏻😆 I believe in you Leigh ! Find that narc another empath !

          41. HG Tudor says:

            It can occur but of course there are various forms of infidelity.

          42. Leigh says:

            Empath007, I guess its a possibility that my husband has cheated. I’ve never caught him though and I’ve never even been suspicious. The man never leaves the house. In fact, I’m the serial cheater. Before we had children there were several. Then while I was raising my babies I was faithful for 20 years (because of them, not him). Then there was workplace narc. Its interesting. I had no problem being unfaithful. No empathy for him that regard. I always wonder why.

          43. Asp Emp says:

            Leigh, I had wondered RE: absence of fathers, whether that can instinctively cause people (maybe more often than not, daughters) to not ‘allow’ others to get too close ie like commitment in the wholly sense of the word? Hence it can appear similar to the behaviours of a narcissist? I am saying this because it is something I had considered / realised when I began to understand myself more (through using KTN). Now, that I am aware of this within myself, it does not mean that I am incapable of committing myself in a relationship in the future. Having said that, it is a bit of a ‘contradiction’ especially in relation to ‘daddy issues’ and those who are possibly CoD?

          44. Leigh says:

            Asp, when you see my reply to Empath007, you’re going to wonder even more about commitment issues when there is an absentee father involved. I had no problem being unfaithful to my husband. The only time I was faithful to him was the 20 years I was raising my children. That was because of them, not him. Maybe I can’t truly commit to him.

          45. Asp Emp says:

            Leigh, is the comment you are referring to in relation to ‘abuse’ from father? I did see your words on that. I suppose, on your part, it is more understandable RE: commitment. Well, you won’t committing to him any longer now? Mother was the abuser, not my father. Things like this were not “talked” about 30-40 years ago. Thank you for sharing so much about your past.

          46. Leigh says:

            Asp, this thread is enormous.. I answered under

          47. Asp Emp says:

            Leigh, thank you so much for the links – took me right to the comments in question. Well, the more you talk, the more others can see what you went through. Best not have an affair, it’s the last thing you want the narcissist to find out about and use it against you. So, continue to be a good girl for the time being. Get yourself more balanced in your emotions / mind, move homes and breathe for a bit. Hope whatever you do goes well from here on in 🙂

          48. BC30 says:

            “Am I afraid of the unknown?” Me too. It’s evolutionary. You don’t just step out of the cave when there might be a bear lurking outside to tear you to shreds. I was afraid of leaving my last job because I didn’t have another lined up. But there was a tipping point, you seem to be coming to yours, and I couldn’t take any more. I now know my boss was a narcissist, so I would GOSO if I were in that situation now. It worked out though. The day I went to sign a contract to freelance with a company, they offered me a full-time position on staff!

            I had to make an emergency business trip that night and had to travel out of town due to my prior boss’ ineptitude (narcissism) and the new company was very accommodating. Anyhow, I am rooting for you 100%. You will do what’s right for you when you are ready. You have the knowledge and the tools.

            More importantly, I know the knowledge about your daughter troubles you, but in the moment, most of us are doing the best we can the best we know how. ❤️

          49. Leigh says:

            BC30, I got the results and its exactly what I thought. As I was listening to Mr. Tudor tell me about my daughter, I had no urge to cry. Why not? Probably because I already knew that my daughter is a narcissist. It was all so matter of fact. I’m struggling because I can’t turn my back on her. What happens if she starts having babies? I couldn’t save her but maybe I can save her babies.

            I do feel like I’m at my tipping point. I don’t want to protect him anymore.

          50. WhoCares says:



          51. Asp Emp says:

            Leigh, I am sorry to read about your daughter. Maybe you’re in shock at present. No one would expect you to turn your back on your daughter. It’s a difficult question to answer at this moment RE: “what happens if she starts having babies?” – you can either consult with HG when the time comes or now, to ease your mind a bit. Who knows, maybe there will be more access to support (ie more widely available) in around 5 years or so because of increasing awareness (because more people are talking about narcissism).

            I understand your ET being raised at present too. Obviously it is also making your ET raised at your husband (is that who you meant by not wanting to protect him anymore?).

            I hope you can navigate through this sooner than later. Thinking of you x BTW, your new pic is great, very inspirational 🙂

          52. Leigh says:

            Hi Asp, at first I chose the Narcissus flower for my new picture. I was in a really negative space and thought there are narcissists everywhere, might as well be here too. Then i decided to change it because then I’m just inviting it in and I don’t want to do that. I chose angel wings because I need something positive right now. I’ve lost my hope and I need a way to get it back.

          53. Leigh says:

            I forgot to answer your question about who I don’t want to protect anymore. Yes, I’m talking about my husband. I’m tired of protecting his image. He doesn’t deserve my protection anymore. The more I think about this new information about my daughter, the less I care about what happens to him.

            Alexis asked me, what do you think will make you leave. I think this is it. I’m tired of moving the goal posts to accommodate him.

          54. Asp Emp says:

            Leigh, thank you for your response. Listen, lass, you have had a shock. You have not ‘lost’ your hope, it is just under the ‘shock’ and your ET. Sounds like you have made a decision, and just need to take the next step. Maybe go and see your friend for a bit? They can help you as well as us on the blog.

            I am glad you decided on the pic you have got now.

            Ok, take it easy Leigh and try not to let your ET ‘rule’ your thoughts x

          55. Leigh says:

            Asp, you always have a way of saying just what I need to hear. Thank you! Your statement made me realize that all hope isn’t lost. I was just feeling a little sorry for myself for a minute. Sometimes I just need a nudge in the right direction.

          56. Asp Emp says:

            Leigh, you are quite rightfully feeling sorry for yourself, it is perfectly understandable. I can see from your comments to others that you are – now – on the right track. I also came across the fact about your father and just before Xmas too – I suppose that ‘celebration’ time is not always easy for you? You were young when he left. It also makes sense as to partly why you stayed longer than you have done (ie not leaving sooner). I can relate to that, in some way. Being here made me understand that aspect of myself (the Co-D ‘element’ if you like). I knew but at the same time, didn’t know how to ‘get to the root of it’ and bring it out in a logical and emotional sense to be able to ‘put it to bed’ if you like – come to terms and understand why it hurt so much and why it contributed to my addiction to narcissists (mother was one). What I have managed to do is ‘deconstruct’ my way of looking at things that I had done for so long – HG’s resources here actually gave me the ‘tools’ to do it. Part of the reason why I was not able to ‘deal’ with it sooner is that no-one talked with me about the grief / bereavement ‘process’ at the time when I needed it.

            What may help you understand more about yourself, is reading this CPTSD link – it’s very short and will take you ‘out of the box’ (away from addiction to the narcissism view) but will also assist you to ‘look into the box’ (within the addiction to narcissism view).


            (thank you, HG).

            Well done, Leigh, and thank you for your words. Good on you, to get where you are now 🙂

          57. Leigh says:

            Thank you Asp. I will definitely look into this. You and MP have definitely given me some things to think about.

          58. Asp Emp says:

            Leigh, you are more than welcome. That is another reason why this blog is such a valuable place, because there are so many different ‘inputs’ from others on here. It also offers, to a degree, different ‘options’ of looking at the same ‘situation’ with the same end goal. You’re doing good, Leigh.

          59. Asp Emp says:

            Leigh, by the way, the fact that you have been on this blog for a while, means that you have already got some knowledge and all you have to do now is, to ‘re-programme’ your ET / LT some more. You can do it. I know you can 🙂

          60. Sweetest Perfection says:

            Leigh I’m so sorry.

          61. Sweetest Perfection says:

            I didn’t turn my back to my family narcs either. I suspect my sister is. There are times I don’t even know how I can forgive the things she does or says, but I still talk to her. The fact that there’s a whole ocean between my family and me helps. Maybe you can leave your husband and detach a little from your daughter without having to go NC with her.

          62. Leigh says:

            I feel like on some level, I’ve already detached from my daughter, husband and mother. Ideally, I’d like to go no contact with my husband and mother. My daughter is a different story. I think the best I’ll be able to do is almost no contact.

          63. BC30 says:

            I’m sorry to hear this. HG is logical, matter of fact, so it can be rough to hear.

            She got the genetic component and you can’t protect someone from something you don’t know about.

            I’m a huge proponent of crying. Let it out. Sending all my love. ❤️

          64. MP says:

            Hello Leigh,

            Regarding you staying in your marriage with toxic husband, please look up literature on abandonment issues or trauma. Not being able to leave toxic relationships is also a symptom of abandonment issues. Abandonment issues is not just about being afraid of being abandoned or discarded but also not being able to discard or detach when the relationship has been harming us. Abandonment trauma is not something that we can talk ourselves out of with logic or reasoning because it has become wired into our nervous system. You have to go inside you and work on your trauma. Abandoning a toxic person could be unconsciously triggering our own subconscious trauma of feeling abandoned. You have to do inner work to address that. <3

          65. Leigh says:

            Thank you MP. My father left when I was 14 and it was 2 days before Christmas. I never thought I had abandonment issues but it certainly would make sense. I’m going to look into this. I really want to do the work so I can finally be free. Thank you again!

          66. MP says:

            Sending love to you Leigh. I’m so sorry you went through that as a child. What do you think your 14 year old self deserve? That is what you deserve too. Sending you support in your inner work. <3 <3 <3

          67. MP says:

            I just want to add Leigh, I know it’s extremely difficult but I hope that you can find away to go NC on your husband or at least limited contact. H.G. is right that it is the best way. You cannot require your nervous system to being healthy while you are living with someone who keeps on causing it to feel unsafe. You cannot completely heal unless you are away from him.

          68. Leigh says:

            MP, I don’t feel unsafe with him. I guess that’s the cognitive dissonance. He much more draining then he is abusive. He depletes my energy and I know that’s not healthy either.

          69. MP says:

            Hello Leigh, you feel drained because you don’t feel safe. Safety isn’t just being safe
            from physical or verbal abuse but also being safe from conflicts and other things that raise stress. When a narcissist withholds affection or triangulates you, your abandonment trauma gets activated and your body doesn’t feel safe. Abandonment is not just physical but also emotional. Your body releases cortisol that makes you feel anxious and this up and down cortisol levels in your body will take a toll and get you feeling drained and many other health effects in the long run. Narcissists are not safe to be a part of our lives and we will never be able to control them. The best way is to work on your way out as much as you can. Even if you can only do something small each day towards that you have to. And if you can also push yourself to make a leap that would be great. You can write down a list of what you think would be hard when you leave him and then address each concern with plans or logical reasonings. If NC is not possible you can do minimal contact. You can use HG’s assistance regarding that and steps you can do to leave your husband. At the time of the traumatic event we were only a child and didn’t receive enough help or support to deal with the event. I believe that we as adults owe to our traumatized child self to better our lives and be the guiding hand and help that our traumatized child self didn’t have. It’s not an easy journey and it is even an impossible one when we are heavily involved and living with a narcissist that keeps in undermining our progress and prevents our ability to be in tune with ourselves. ❤️

          70. MP says:

            Hello Leigh, I hope that I wasn’t too pushy. I acknowledge that we all have unique situations and issues that we are dealing with. And for some of us things are much more complicated than others. I just want you to know that you have my support.

          71. Leigh says:

            MP, you weren’t too pushy. Even if you were, I don’t mind pushy when its in the right direction..

          72. Bubbles says:

            Dearest Leigh,
            I’ve had huge abandonment issues all my life….it’s very real
            My heart aches for you right now precious one, it’s not easy, but it’s achievable.
            Plan ahead and don’t rush into anything for now ……when in doubt, don’t …. just take baby steps
            You have everyone here willing to help and on your side
            I’m so sorry to hear about your daughter ….she can be managed however
            Hog here as much as you need
            Hugs to you sweet Leigh 🤗
            Luv Bubbles xx 😘

          73. Leigh says:

            Bubbles says, “She can be managed however.”

            I know how to “manage” my mother and my husband. They are both victim narcissists. Luckily with my mother, I only speak with her once a month and its a 5 minute conversation. With my husband, its time to get out and stay out even though I know how to manage him. I’ve been doing it for 36 years.

            I don’t know how to manage my daughter. I have to learn though because going no contact with my daughter is not an option.

            Mr. Tudor, I’d be willing to pay to learn how to manage.

          74. Asp Emp says:

            Leigh, maybe you could email HG as you do have a) query as to how best to plan to leave without succumbing to potential manipulations; b) advice on how to interact with daughter, and maybe other queries. HG can advise on either consults or Assistance Packages.

          75. Bubbles says:

            Dearest Leigh,
            Why are you saying you can’t manage your daughter …narcissist or not ?
            You’re her mother/parent (sorry, did I miss something?)
            Luv Bubbles xx 😘

          76. Leigh says:

            Dearest Bubbles,
            Mr. Tudor has confirmed that my daughter is a narcissist. That’s what sparked this whole conversation. So I was saying that I know how to “manage” my husband and my mother. They are both victim narcissists and I understand on some level. My daughter, however, I’m still having some trouble with. I have to walk on eggshells and I’m very anxious around her. What I really need to learn is how to manage my anxiety around her. I will be purchasing “How to Handle a Parental Narcissist” to help me.

            I read about your escape from your first husband. I’m so sorry you lost your fur babies. I’m glad you were able to achieve freedom. Thank you for sharing it.

          77. Asp Emp says:

            Leigh, what you say about being anxious around your daughter is probably because you now know that she is a narcissist. Have you consulted with HG about planning to take next steps, to speed things up for you? The sooner you can go NC / ANC as appropriate, the more likely your ET / LT can get into sync. If you’re in the UK, you may be able to access temporary housing if necessary?

          78. MP says:

            Leigh, I’m sorry I missed the part that your daughter is a narcissist. That is really difficult as you will always love her and want the best for her.

          79. Leigh says:

            Yes MP, she’s one I won’t be able to go no contact with. I will have to do minimal or almost no contact. Which means there will always be a risk of raised emotional thinking.

          80. HG Tudor says:

            Indeed but you are entirely capable of achieving that and doing so successfully.

          81. MP says:

            I’m sorry Leigh, it looks like you would need HG’s help on that. My husband has minimal contact with his kids but he has a different personality so a lot of their provocations doesn’t really affect him as much as it can affect empaths. His older daughter hasn’t called him since she moved to another state, not even for Father’s Day but he will hear from her again for sure and she will act as if everything is normal. Your daughter will probably do stuff like that to you through the years but I think it helps to know what she is so you can prepare for how to handle it. <3

          82. Leigh says:

            Thank you MP. I will be buying the How to Handle the Parental Narcissist package. Mr. Tudor says it will help me to go almost no contact. That’s not the relationship I wanted for my daughter and I. It is what it is though.

            I like reading about your husband and seeing his perspective. I think my other daughter is a normal.

            I’m sorry your husband doesn’t have a better relationship with his children. Although from his perspective, maybe its exactly the relationship he wants. I know my normal daughter is very picky about who she chooses to spend time with.

          83. MP says:

            I’m super glad that you are getting the help you need. My husband is like your other daughter, he is very picky with people he spends time with. He actually doesn’t have any friends even though so many people like him. The only friends he spends time with are my friends. He had a best friend that died, a best friend that married a woman whom he said he doesn’t vibe with so he stopped spending time with that friend, and a former narc best friend that he also stopped spending time with before he even met me. He just spends his time between his work and us. He said he only has very limited time on earth so he would rather spend it with us and especially our young kids. Maybe it’s also because he’s in his late sixties so he tries to spend as much time as he can with our little kids.

            But with his adult daughters, he actually really wants all of us to get a long and for his grandkids to be close with our little kids and have a strong connection where they can even support each other as they grow up. But he has said so many times that his life is so much better now that his adult daughters are not interacting with me anymore but I know there will always be some sadness in him about his older kids not being part of our lives. His older son is very much loved by our two little kids. They absolutely love him and are always excited to spend time with him. But they both have no memory of their older sisters although they know about them. I do not badmouth the two women to my kids. I just told them they live far away, which is true because they moved to a far away state.

            My husband is not overthinking his situation with his daughters. He just deals with stuff when things actually happen. He doesn’t worry, plan, or regret anything. The last time he saw his daughters was when he helped them move but he didn’t interact with them that much and he went home right away and didn’t stay with them for dinner. One time when the NC was just new our plan was that he would spend time with them without me. But when he went there without me he said it was so weird because his daughters were acting like nothing was wrong and like his wife and two little kids do not exist and they were taking pictures of him playing with his grandkids and saying comments like “aww so cute” while looking at him playing with the kids and he just had a very uncomfortable feeling so he immediately said goodbye. His oldest daughter got upset because he hasn’t been there that much but he said he couldn’t do it anymore and he had to leave. He said he felt like they just needed him to play a character or a role in their script and he cannot tolerate seeing them laughing and giggling and acting like he doesn’t have a wife and kids. So he also ended up not having a good connection with them and it’s also partly because of him not being able to and partly because of them not connecting with him when they don’t need him.

          84. Leigh says:

            MP, thank you for sharing this. I’m so nervous now that I’m questioning if my other daughter is a narcissist too. After reading this, she sounds so similar to your husband. I really needed to hear this. Thank you so much!

          85. MP says:

            You’re welcome Leigh! I’m glad that I was able to help a bit. And Thank you as well for your well widgets. I’m doing ok. 💞

          86. MP says:

            *well wishes 😁

          87. MP says:

            Hello Leigh, I will be absent from Narcsite for a while. I’m very disturbed by the current events in Afghanistan. Take care and I’m glad you’re getting the guidance and help you need.

          88. Leigh says:

            Hi MP, I agree its very upsetting. I hope you’re ok. You take care of yourself too.

          89. Bubbles says:

            Dearest Leigh,
            Thank you for your caring response regarding my fur babies. I phoned him to collect them, made a date n time. He was extremely nice on the phone, saying he’d cook me a roast chook, we could talk and he would change. Everyone advised against it. I never went back! I don’t know what happened to the cats, hopefully he took them to the animal shelter, he was never cruel to them when I was with him.

            I was just wondering if you have only became ‘anxious’ since Mr Tudor confirmed your daughter being a narcissist ?
            If that is the case, she will sense your change and anxiety
            Try not to let her get on top of you and weigh you down
            Mr Tudor has got you covered lovely 😊
            Luv Bubbles xx 😘

          90. Leigh says:

            Dearest Bubbles, I’ve always felt anxious around my daughter. All of us in the household feel like we are walking on eggshells. Even my husband who is a narcissist, tries to avoid her.

            We has a huge fight and there was no empathy for me at all. There was no accountability, when she was clearly wrong. There was blame shifting and deflecting. The argument was never resolved. I realized during that argument what I was dealing with and decided to do the narc detector for confirmation.

    3. Violetta says:

      Sometimes I think I understand narcs better than normals.

      1. Asp Emp says:

        Violetta, I think I do too 🙂

  12. lisk says:

    Horrible, lazy second half for England.

    Southgate chose especially poorly at the end and set these guys up for failure.

    As you say, HG, different people will react differently to that failure—and they did.

    1. Alexissmith2016 says:

      He did make a mistake Lisk, but he has at least taken full ownership for that. We all make mistakes now and then, even HG.

      I’m kidding obviously HG never makes a mistake. Not ever!

      1. lisk says:

        I really don’t care if he took “full ownership.” Frankly, it seemed insincere to me, as well as a bit too woke for my taste. Mostly, it seemed like he was trying to manage public reaction to a bad ending and divert focus off of the three in the thumbnail.

        Again, the second half was crap and the second-half players–not just the late-entry flubbers–should be the ones taking “ownership.” (And maybe they did–but I haven’t heard them above the “racism” noise.)

        1. Alexissmith2016 says:

          Well my husband would agree with you on GS.

          I personally really like him, yes he made a mistake but the way he thinks about the game and seems to play the team to their strengths and really understands the players and what they can do. He is far superior to other England managers who in the past just have one way of doing things ans they won’t be advised differently – due to their narcissism.

          I really enjoyed the game, it was nail biting in the most part. It went a bit flat and we were overrun for a while but regardless of how much they’re worth, they are still only human ans the pressure must have been immense. In my view we just lost our composure, it’s an immense amount of pressure they were under. The whole country behind them. I remember playing ten pin bowling years ago, we were with a big group using several lanes and I was getting strike after strike, everyone was saying come over and watch alexis. The moment they did everything went down the side and I couldn’t get a single pin down after that hahaha

          I wanted to win, of course I did, but I would much rather watch a game like that than one where we stuff a team 10-0. I know most people would disagree with me, snd they regularly do haha but I don’t see any enjoyment in that at all. For one it’s boring and you’re also breaking the hearts and pride of another team.

          I want nail biting excitement all the way win or lose.

          One of the reasons I barely ever watch my home team any more. I don’t care if they lose games but at least make them exciting!

          GS has still managed to exceed England’s target so far which was to make it to the semi for euro 2020. I will defend him (as long as he’s not an N then he can go f himself) until I die lol

        2. Mel says:

          No lisk

          He fucked up. And then took responsibility for fucking up.

          I’m hazarding a guess when he made that call, he was attempting an act of redemption via proxy.

          You see, Southgate very suddenly had a lot of people riding on his undoubted brilliance as manager. He is. But he fell into a very classic trap of empath attempting to redeem themselves via a third party. He lost control. Lost perspective.

          I have a lot of compassion for him. I trust he will learn from his mistake. It really isn’t the end of the world. Although it may seem like it atm.

  13. Asp Emp says:

    Firstly, I have stated that I watch England as far as they go in the run up to the finals in football (World Cup / Euro). I enjoyed following England. I was happy they reached the finals.

    I could not believe yet was not surprised to learn how some people responded as a result of England not winning the final, despite the fact the team got there. It made me feel ashamed to be someone who is a mixed of the UK nationality after I saw news of the defacing of one of the footballer’s image. I also recalled the generosity of Rashford’s persistence regarding the free school meals and was pleased that he challenged the UK Govt on this (kudos to him for this alone).

    “the two groups that are behind this behaviour are drawn from narcissists and the normals” – RE: narcissists, I am not surprised. What did surprise me was the reference and explanation RE: ‘normals’.

    “this behaviour is not undertaken by empathic individuals they have emotional empathy for a wide range of people and therefore almost like an invisible force they will not behave in this manner because it just doesn’t cross their mind to do so of course an empathic individual who supports England is disappointed in the defeat they may well feel disappointed the way that Marcus Rashford took his penalty hesitating and then dilly dallying rather he should have just put his foot through it” – his reaction was so visible and the team reached out to show that they supported him, regardless. That is true ‘team-work’.

    (05:20) “people ask what is wrong with these people what on earth possesses an individual to go online and abuse somebody that they’ve never met” – such POWERFUL words. In my view, these words are not necessarily just applicable to this particular video.

    Wow, this video had me in tears. Literally. It was saddening to read. Why did it affect me so much? Because, I know exactly what it is like to be discriminated against, to be verbally (physically & emotionally) abused.

    A prime example ie telecommunications staff who refused to take my calls through a third party, regardless of such a ‘Data Protection Law’, that was not in question, at all, yet they used it in order breach UK’s Laws and also International Law ie Human Rights, Equality etc. Even though I have a ‘disability’, I was made to feel my disability more because of the fact I was not able to follow through with a telephone call (I had no access to internet because of a fault at their end !!).

    During the Covid Lockdowns, deaf people have found it difficult to communicate directly with local doctors and receive telephone calls from NHS services. This is even before the issue of people wearing masks within a medical environment ie the doctor’s surgery. Even the UK Govt were slow to issue guidance in relation to communicating with Deaf people. The National Autistic society and other organisations did act, where it was applicable / as appropriate.

    It is so demoralising. Disempowering. Isolating. Individuality being ‘removed’. Forced ‘reliance’ on people who are unavailable. The list goes on. Yet this is 21st Century and to me, sometimes, it does not feel like it !

    Another ‘external stressor’ in my case is yesterday I learned some more ways where the so-called medical “system” let me down.

    I realise that this video provoked so much emotion within me and I decided to post it later on, after I have let my ET reduce.

    Thank you, HG. For this video. Such a provoking but hard truth. It does make me thankful for the ‘sanctuary’ of my house, to be able to ‘shut off’ as I need, for the time being, anyway.

    On the plus side, I have shared this video on my Facebook.

  14. Violetta says:

    I don’t see why verbal abuse of a player needs to go racial. Telling the quarterback he can’t run his way out of a wet paper bag or a 3rd baseman he couldn’t catch a cold is perfectly adequate at most US games. I don’t actually do either one, tbh: I have only cheers or applause for my team, although I have been known to join in chants of “BULL-shit ..BULL-shit” if the ref/umpire makes a call I think misguided.

    Seriously, why can’t fans stick to words referring to body parts and body functions like civilized people?

  15. MP says:

    I can’t see my pending comment and i can’t remember exactly what I said but I just want to add to clarify that I was not criticizing woke or activists in general. There are a lot of them that sincerely wants to make the world a better place and very empathic. I was just referring to the overwhelming angel kinds that sometimes see immigrants as merely a demographic that needs saving and often applies a generalized blanket stereotypes hence causes us to feel objectified in some way. But there are many beautiful and kind people that really want equality for people.

  16. Bubbles says:

    Dear Mr Tudor,
    Thank you for explaining in detail
    I was shocked and disgusted when we were shown scenes on tv of the English fans literally kicking Italian fans that were pushed to the ground, in the ribs
    I felt so sorry for the poor bugga who kicked the penalty shot …. I knew he’d cop it big time!
    The way the English fans reacted made me happier that Italy won.
    Out of interest, how did you, as an Ultra, react ?
    Luv Bubbles xx 😘

    1. MB says:

      I wondered the same thing Bubbles

      1. Bubbles says:

        Dearest MB,
        Our greater friend doesn’t acknowledge a loss, he goes quiet and doesn’t want to talk about it.
        When his beloved team wins, he sends us the team’s song and pics of them celebrating with an expensive wine. They probably have sex that night 😂

        Mr Tudor may go quiet and his inner fury may be ignited. He may release his negative energy with a lashing or two, throwing someone into his dungeon just out of spite or by making his crocodile in the castle moat swim a few rounds to earn his dinner 😂
        I doubt there’d be any sex that night 🥀
        Luv Bubbles xx 😘

        1. Alexissmith2016 says:

          in my head there would be full on devaluation sex when his team loses – oh god!

          1. Bubbles says:

            Dearest Alexissmith2016,
            There’s that too, however I’m not sure with an Ultra…..I wouldn’t like to be the recipient, that’s for sure
            Men are ‘sensitive’ creatures when it comes to their sports
            I take it for what it is and move on …….the best team on the day wins, better luck next time
            Luv Bubbles xx 😘

      2. A Victor says:

        I wondered about this also. Ultimately HG saw it as a teaching opportunity regarding narcissism. But what happened to any sense of fury at the moment?

        1. MB says:

          HG probably had to take a Farquhar day to deal with it.

          He had one the other day too. On one of the Harry’s wife videos, he spoke of removing the toilet paper on Anal Armageddon day at the office and various other malice filled acts. Entertaining unless you were one of unfortunate curry eating, beer drinking victims without 🧻

          1. Witch says:

            As women we know to carry extra tissues in our bag and we may even have an extra sanitary towel to wipe our arseholes with if needed

          2. MB says:

            Witch, so true. We are prepared! However, eating curry wouldn’t be an issue for me. An overindulgence of beer is another story!

          3. A Victor says:

            Hahaha, MB, a Farquhar day! That is hilarious! Hahaha, I have so much trouble picturing “sweet” HG in such mode!

            Yes, that video had me in stitches!!! His shenanigan’s are hysterical to hear about! Not to endure, I’m sure!

    2. Alexissmith2016 says:

      “Dearest Alexissmith2016,
      There’s that too, however I’m not sure with an Ultra…..I wouldn’t like to be the recipient, that’s for sure
      Men are ‘sensitive’ creatures when it comes to their sports
      I take it for what it is and move on …….the best team on the day wins, better luck next time”.

      I only just saw this bubbles. I wouldn’t like to be the recipient either! That’s why I wouldn’t stick around to find out. Haha

  17. Witch says:

    Regarding the people saying “we have to do something about this” actually we don’t really need to do more than what’s already been done.
    People are now talking about having to use your ID to register on social media, which is ridiculous.
    Yes those comments were bad, but people are really willing to give up their own freedoms because they care about what other people think that badly?

    1. lisk says:

      Excellent point, Witch.

      This is mob mentality any way slice it.

      Now let me see what HG says about it all—I haven’t given it a listen yet!

    2. Dave says:

      Likely in the future you will need to use a unique ID to use the Internet for anything. So that everything can be tracked. Heck why not tag it on to the vacine passport.

      1. Witch says:


        That is my issue with some of the ideas coming from liberals and wanting to restrict any abusive speech to the point that we ALL have to be monitored like a new born 24/7
        Whenever I disagree with someone online they usually make some kind of homophobic commit towards me. I just laugh. I honestly don’t care because I don’t envy the heterosexual lifestyle one bit.
        We need to learn to stop giving irrelevant people that much power over our lives.

        1. lisk says:

          Agree. Hate speech is legal, at least in the US.

          Let it all hang out.

          1. A Victor says:

            Hi Lisk,
            Your and Witch’s comments caused me to do a search on what speech is not protected under our first amendment in the US. These nine, Obscenity, Fighting words, Defamation (including libel and slander), Child pornography, Perjury, Blackmail, Incitement to imminent lawless action, True threats, and Solicitations to commit crimes are all pretty cut and dried as to what they are, though most things are open to some interpretation, assuming we use the legal definitions of each, and the meaning of the defining words stays unchanged, they are pretty solid. Some would also add treason, if it is committed verbally, and finally, plagiarism of copyrighted material is not protected, both of these being also well defined. I think the difference with hate speech, the reason it has been allowed to remain legal, is because it is much more subjective. Much as hate speech is immoral, especially from my perspective as an empath, and it typically violates antidiscrimination laws, were it made broadly illegal, my fear would be that narcissists, because they are so often the ones in power, would determine what it consists of. So…is it the narcissist I align with…or the one I don’t? From there we could have quite a slippery slope. As such, I am happy for it to be left to parents and other adults with influence to teach children to respect others, and to step in when a child is being victimized, as protection and also as a teaching opportunity. This would not necessarily be in the even of a “fair” fight, similar sizes/ages/numbers etc. I think our children need to be allowed to learn to stand up for themselves and this can be a constructive way for that to happen. Then perhaps discuss it with the child/children at a later juncture. But in a true victimization, step in. One problem I see is that many parents today seem to shirk this responsibility, probably narcissists quite often, they do get a bad rap but in my experience, it is earned. (My parents did not protect me from anything, rather stating “Life isn’t fair, deal with it.”) But also for adults to accept personal responsibility to control urges to hurt another even when they are angry or disappointed, I mean, that’s what being an adult is all about. And, as the understanding of narcissism spreads, hopefully the bulk of society will shut this type of misbehavior down and support the victims. And the victims of such horrendous treatment will be able to see it for what it is, and be able to not take it personal, even though it is intended as such. I do think that some of the things said to these men could potentially fall under fighting words or defamation, maybe incitement or true threats depending on the nature of them. Certainly many would fall under obscenities and also antidiscrimination laws. It wasn’t done in the US, so there is that, laws vary and, social media being what it is, is challenging to hold anyone accountable on. As much as I would like to not have these things happening, and as hurtful as words can be, I agree, Witch’s attitude is a very good one. Another thing to teach our children, look to the source, which very often will take us right back to narcissists in the event of a negative occurrence!

            My ex loves his football, American style. I remember him on many occasions, at the end of a close game where we lost, going back over the plays, to himself but out loud, looking at where it went wrong, how things could’ve played out differently etc. But, for all his faults, he never to my knowledge blamed the guy that missed, for example, the last field goal attempt. Instead he seemed to feel bad for that guy and prefer to look back to see how the final score had come down to the final play. He would never have sent the players a nasty message of any kind. I don’t know what this all means as far as his narcissism, facade maybe? But clearly more “coarsening of society” has taken place for this most recent event to have occurred. I am saddened every time I see more evidence of this happening.

            Thank you for your comment Lisk, it prompted me to think this through, again, do a little research, and organize my thoughts. Much appreciated.

          2. A Victor says:

            Oh no, I had asked for my long rambling comment not to be posted, HG either forgot our didn’t know which one I meant. I apologize, this wasn’t directed at you even as I wrote it but it was really just a bunch of thoughts I had that didn’t need to be here. Though I do appreciate that your and Witch’s discussion made me think my thoughts through.

          3. Witch says:


            I appreciate the experiences you have shared about being mixed race. And I understand the hostility you’re talking about in relation to your sister’s comment. Regardless of the fact that Meghan is a narcissist I’ve seen plenty of ignorant comments directed towards her being biracial and also in particular towards her mother, despite the fact that her father and sister have proven to be an embarrassment whilst Doria has kept much of her personal life private. something that Meghan could learn to do if she wasn’t a narcissist.
            Some people are insinuating that there is no way anyone could be racially prejudiced against Meghan because she is light skinned. I’m light skinned and I’ve been called a Paki (I don’t care about those silly comments,) however I mentioned it because a light skinned mixed race person can be read in different ways; white by some people and “foreign” by others.
            However I agree that the extent to which Meghan has faced racial prejudice has also been largely exaggerated by her fans.

          4. MP says:

            I agree Witch. I actually was irked when I saw a story where Prince William was criticized for not doing anything to help Meghan after he condemned the racist actions against the athletes. It just goes to show how skillful narcissists are at controlling the narrative and not the Royal Family has been smeared unfairly.

          5. MP says:

            *and now

          6. Witch says:


            I wonder if William now feels under pressure to prove he is not racist because Meghan’s accusations have tainted the whole family?
            I think he should just not give a shit tbh and keep it moving. Sometimes black and brown people are embarrassing in how they beg for validation from white people. I saw a very apt comment from a black man which said “a mouse cannot convince a lion that he is mouse.”

          7. Witch says:


            That’s good to know.
            Kate and William have always presented a unified image with Harry and his wife on their social media. Yet the trolls in their hypocrisy accuse them of racism merely by evidence of their skin colour and ethnicity. But as we know nothing is ever good enough for a narcissist.

          8. MP says:

            Witch, I agree. Their unified image reminds me of my brother and sister in law’s marriage. I think they have been married for around 3 decades or more but they still look very in sync. They’re like twin flames but without the drama. I think that’s pretty much how William and Kate are going to be like forever. They are both Normals (the good spectrum of Normals) and level headed. The only way that MM’s smears and manipulations will affect William is if it affects his family or the monarchy which are more important to him than public’s approval. For Kate, if it affects William and their family. I don’t believe that Princess Diana would have a racist kid. Both her sons love memories of her comforting children in Africa and I have seen both men follow her lead even prior to MM being in the picture. However MM is going to take advantage of her having the race card and the Royal Family being white to get fuel and residual benefits.

        2. Leigh says:

          Witch, I think this a very tough issue to debate. While I agree with you that our freedom and liberties should not be taken away & we need to stop giving them the power to affect us. I also think that something needs to be done. As a Hispanic female, I’ve had to deal with discrimination my whole life. I’ve been lucky because my husband is of English descent and my surname is now English. The discrimination is dialed back somewhat because if I’m on the phone with someone, they don’t know I’m Hispanic. In that respect, I’m pretty lucky because it only happens in person. However, if I’m at a bar, store or somewhere requiring service, they will walk right past me, as if I don’t even exist. I actually live in NY where its very diversified and its still happening. Also, because I look very young and my children look more like my sisters, people will assume its because I’m Spanish and Spanish people start having babies young. People have actually said this to me. Its the furthest thing from the truth. I had my first baby at 28.

          I know there’s no easy answer. I just wanted to give a different perspective.

          1. A Victor says:

            Hi Leigh, do you think some of what you have experienced may be because you are a woman also? I have experienced being overlooked, feeling invisible, at times, certainly grew up feeling that way, and I am quite Scandinavian looking. I have also wondered how much of it for me stems from being an empath, and just not being very assertive most of the time. It is annoying. I am very interested how it might present differently for you if it is coming from racism, sexism or something else.

          2. Leigh says:

            Hi AV, there’s probably alot of factors. It probably doesn’t help that I’m under 5 foot and I’ve looked like a kid most of my life. Witch makes a very good point too, some of it might be me blowing it out of proportion.

            Its interesting, I have thought on many occasions, why do I have to scream at the top of my lungs in order to be heard.

          3. Eternity says:

            Leigh , you should so cute! I love my son’s girlfriend. She is 4 foot 10 and my son is about 5 foot 7. They are so cute together. I always give her these really long bear hugs. She has a wonderful personality. When she wants to heard she will be heard..

          4. A Victor says:

            Leigh, there are a number of things coming together here, I’m putting it here so that I can get them out of my head and somewhere visual. 1. I have felt invisible at times, it’s annoying. 2. People notice me, it’s annoying. 3. People want to interact, very annoying. These three things seem a bit…counterintuitive. Not sure how they fit together yet but I think it might be important…

          5. Witch says:


            I’m afraid we can’t have control over how other people think. There are always going to be people who make ignorant comments and sometimes even unintentionally offend others.
            The left has taken this fact and called it “micro aggressions.”
            Now, I completely appreciate that people can be extremely annoying but sometimes through our emotional thinking we can also be guilty of blowing it out of proportion.
            If someone assumes that I have a boyfriend instead of a girlfriend the left are telling me to view that as a micro aggression…
            I chose to view it as statistically more probable, and also due to a lack of individual exposure to a minority, therefore I’m not offended by it.
            Sometimes on our side it’s a confidence issue. I know this intimately because I have struggled with my confidence and self acceptance.
            And I say this without the intention of undermining more significant cases of discrimination.

          6. Leigh says:

            @Witch, I know what you mean. It almost feels like the left is just stirring the pot. While sometimes it might be a “micro aggression”, other times it might just be an innocent question.

            As for blowing it out of proportion, that would be me on many occasions. I always felt like I had to fight for my right to be heard and seen. As I’ve grown older, the over reactions have calmed down a bit.

            MP made a comment about if stopping hate speech isn’t changed voluntarily, then what’s the point. Thats exactly how I feel about being heard or seen. If I have to force someone to see or hear me, is it even worth it?

            Thank you for your response Witch.

          7. MP says:

            Hello AV,

            Interesting observation about the empath factor. I think you have a point there.
            Racists really exists but I think empath’s are more likely to be affected by their behaviors. My MR sister was also against racism but she used racist micro aggressions against me when we were alone together. I experienced the same thing with my stepdaughters. My youngest SD actually opened up to her uncle that my ethnicity aside from my age embarrass her. But I have not seen them be that way to other people who belong to the same ethnicity as me. My older SD even had a friend who was full blooded of my mom’s ethnicity but the lady seems like a Normal and she is married to a professional photographer who took a lot of my SD’s family pictures for free. And yet she criticized my son’s appearance when he was a newborn because of a trait in appearance related to my mom’s race. It sucks when narcs behave differently towards us and towards others but it’s all part of their N behaviors.

            For me when I was working there were customers that avoided going to my window when they have problems that they think were too complicated for me to understand or figure out because of my accent maybe and also because I didn’t have an outwardly confident demeanor (in the Western style of confidence) although I am confident. And then it’s funny when my co-worker that they went to went to me for help because I actually knew the procedures better. But I don’t think it was automatically racism. My husband’s mom was a white immigrant from Germany and they also treated her like she wasn’t smart. I have an old classmate from my home country who is a doctor here in the US now and she said that when she did her residency in the Mid West she experienced a lot of racism but she just ignored it although it annoyed her. They just acted like she was not as good as the other doctors because she isn’t white and she studied in our home country even though she also passed the exams here. My white husband also experienced racism when he was in LA and he went to a fast food chain and the employees there were all Hispanics and they were all ignoring him and not speaking English. Finally after waiting for so long someone asked if anyone can help the white guy. I think that racism is real and also mean and stupid people are everywhere. I also experienced ignorant statements from people that I know didn’t mean to offend me which I just ignore and don’t make any deal about unless it seems like a consistent pattern.

          8. Leigh says:

            MP, I missed this comment. Its very sad because racism happens every where. I have seen reverse discrimination happen too. I think its based on fear. Fear that they will be overrun by another race. I have a girlfriend who says she’s scared that theee will no longer be a “white” race and that’s why shes against interracial relationships. As if your skin color determines if you are important or not. Skin color doesn’t determine if you are a good person. Adolf Hitler is a prime example.

          9. MP says:

            Leigh, I have heard of that thought process before too. About not having enough white race anymore. I think it’s a repugnant thought process and it makes me think the person has a very shallow thought process. But I think it isn’t only present among the whites. Personally I have seen the same thought process present in my home country, in Japan, and among the Chinese and some Indian immigrants in my home country. Among some Indian and Chinese families, they actually disown family members that marry a Filipino or another race. In my home country interracial marriages are so frequent but there is an implied preference for marrying a fellow Filipino over someone from another race. There is even a mentality that Filipino women who marry someone from another race did it for practical purposes or because they couldn’t find a Filipino to fall in love with them. This is probably going to offend some people but it’s the truth. When I went back to my home country as a married woman I got all kinds of criticisms for marrying an American although I would say majority were supportive and positive. But there was always that comment like I betrayed my country or race or something. I remember thinking I wasn’t even completely accepted because I was mixed race so I don’t owe anyone anything. But just to clarify, these are minority of my interactions and majority are very positive and happy for me. My empath aunts totally love my husband and they try so hard to speak English it’s so funny. I honestly don’t know what makes a person be racist like that. Based on my personal observations from my home country, there’s a lot of patriotic pride involved that is in a level that is misinformed or ignorant. I don’t think that these thought process would be present in an empathic person and I agree with H.G. when I really think about it that Normals can have these thought processes too although from my personal experience, these Normals tend to be the ignorant or uneducated kind. But there could be more types than the ones I encountered in my life.

          10. MP says:

            Hello Leigh, I have been ruminating about racism and found this survey that pretty much matches my personal experience from living in two countries. World Population Review did a survey in different countries to measure how racist they are by asking them what type of neighbor they would prefer to live next to. They measured racism based on how many of the participants answered they do not want to live next to someone from a different race. The result was that the US, Latin countries and the UK are actually the most tolerant and least racist countries while many African and Asian countries are the most racist countries. A lot of people don’t realize when they visit a country and people give them extra special treatment it doesn’t mean those people are not racists and it doesn’t mean that the same treatment is given to the people that actually live there and are real members of their community. I don’t think that the US is perfect, I experienced unpleasant things as I have shared here but majority of the people are actually very nice and didn’t make me feel like I was an oddity. I also don’t believe that non white people do not have an equal chance to succeed because I have been seeing my fellow immigrants from my home country do really well and even better than a lot of the whites who grew up here. But this is just my personal truth and I know that a lot of people disagree with me and I understand that.


          11. Leigh says:

            Thank you for sharing this, MP. I agree as a whole that Americans are pretty tolerant. I live in a very diverse neighborhood.
            Unfortunately there are always a few bad apples in the bunch and sometimes they make the most noise.

          12. MP says:

            Thank you Leigh, I agree, the bad apples make the most noise. I have read somewhere that our negative experiences can tend to affect us more than our positive experiences. For example a person can have ten positive experiences and one bad experience can cancel out the negative one. I forgot the ration but there has to be several positive experiences to cancel out one negative one. I think that the very few bad apples can have a similar effect.

          13. MP says:

            Hello Witch,

            This is for your comment about Prince William. I couldn’t find a direct reply button. I think Prince William would not have the same pressure as an empath has when it comes to dealing with smearing. He has already said in an interview about Meghan before that they’re pretty much not a racist family. He would not react like for example Intend to do when something accuses me of something where I give more attention to it that I really should have. He would not be chasing down strangers and explaining his side of the story to them. My Normal brother would just say a short remark to defend himself and then move on. He has so much more productive things to do and his interest in a false accusation is very short lived. My Normal husband would pretty much be the same although he would make a mental note to forever avoid the person. His focus is always our family and his work. Being a Normal I believe Prince William is the same. He didn’t even care about pretending to like MM in public just so he wouldn’t appear racist. He is not a people pleaser and he doesn’t have the pressure to explain or prove himself to anyone. He knows he will be a king someday and that gives him personal confidence in my opinion. Prince Harry though is a totally different story and I personally believe it plays some role on the control MM has over him as well.

          14. MP says:

            Hello Witch,

            This article explains how smearing affects empaths more. Since Prince William is not an empath it doesn’t affect him as much as it would have affected an Empath.


          15. Witch says:


            I think in a lot of situations we don’t need to force people to be seen or heard. Sometimes you just have to practice walking into a room like you mean business. That might mean having to speak up and say you have been waiting patiently and now you would like to be served.
            When you signal to strangers that you need their approval to cope it makes you more vulnerable because there are definitely people who will exploit that.
            This why it’s important to get rid of any narcissists in your life. You are the most vulnerable to other narcissists when you are already under the control of one or more.
            Even lesser predators can sense when an apex predator is made vulnerable by injuries and will use that opportunity to move in.

          16. Asp Emp says:

            Witch, I liked how you suggested to walk into a room “like you mean business” (I laughed at that, brilliantly put). It is not always easy to do though, I would say it depends on the level of confidence someone has within themselves and whether they are in depression because of their way of thinking ie empath unaware of being under influence of addiction to narcissism.

            I agree and can resonate with your saying about being under the influence of more than one narcissist at one time – it is so difficult and even worse when you don’t know you are in that position – like I was. I am ok now – ET / LT totally in the right levels / place. Even now, I must admit that I think ‘fk’ that was a bad period of my life and ‘thank fk’ I found HG’s site & used his work to achieve what I needed to – for myself and others in the future.

            Thank you for sharing your comment 🙂

          17. Leigh says:

            I do need to practice walking into a room like i mean business. I prefer sneaking in so no one sees me. Hmm, thats interesting. Maybe I do it to myself. But why? Why do I want to be unnoticed? Maybe its because I’m tired of being preyed upon.

          18. MP says:

            Hello Witch, I agree with most of what you say about micro-aggression as being blown out of proportion. I just want to add though that there are times that there are valid micro-aggressions. For example in my personal experience with my MR half sister who was against racism, one time she told me when she was confiding in me about how hard the situation is to have me there and finding out that our dad cheated on her mom with my mom, she said “and of all people he would cheat with he chose a Filipino.” The way she said a Filipino with so much emotion and bitterness in her voice made me feel confused if there is something wrong with it or if it would have been better if it was a Chinese or a Lebanese or an American he cheated with. It was a confusing statement for me especially since she was very politically correct and vocally against racism around everyone else. At that time I was too stirred inside to ask for a clarification and also I was afraid of what I might hear if I asked for a clarification. I also gave her an excuse in my mind that she’s already having such a hard time about it so I just give her a break. Another micro-aggression she did was when she was arguing with me that Filipinos eat bats and I told her in my whole life that I lived there I have never eaten a bat and never saw a restaurant serve it. She insisted we eat bat soup. I googled it and I showed her that it is a different country and she just dismissed and still insisted she was right. She also said when she was going to live in Ecuador that they are clean over there unlike in the Philippines where people spit everywhere. Those little things are hurtful even though they are not exactly aggressive or the traditional sense of racism and those things are so confusing and passive aggressive that oftentimes they are hard to identify or call out. So I think those can be classified as micro aggressions but honestly I could be wrong because I am not well read about what micro-aggression really is. I was just applying what little I have heard about it to my personal experiences.

          19. MP says:

            To add to my previous comment regarding my examples, my husband’s mom, even though she was white and was picked on for being an immigrant from Germany when there was some anger towards Germany after WW2, was also being abused by her husband who was an alcoholic and based on my husband’s stories, I’m guessing he may have been a Lesser. So the comment about being injured because of an existing N entanglement and being picked on by other Ns because they can smell the blood from the wounds I think makes really good sense. I experienced the same thing. I just feel that some Ns like my MR sister would use racist remarks or behaviors to get fuel out of someone and in her case it was micro-aggressions because she was a MR and these aggressions are much easier to deny/gaslight. Just my personal observation.

          20. MP says:


            It sounds like your son’s gf is cute and fun to be around with. My closest friend here in the US is from Mexico and she is not assertive but she doesn’t put up with things. I think she’s a Normal. She is very similar to my husband where she is not a good-doer and shoulder to cry on or a community volunteer kind of person and not emotional at all either. But she’s a very good person and very much into her family and religion but she doesn’t seem to care about being accepted by anyone. I haven’t seen anyone be mean to her but I don’t think it would have affected her because she just doesn’t care enough. I personally can relate to what Leigh described as I also have things about my demeanor/affect/personality that makes it look like I am an easy target or easy to pick on or underestimate. Although now my skin is thicker and I don’t care anymore either. Maybe because I am also aging so I just don’t care anymore.

          21. Eternity says:

            MP, she is so adorable inside and out. I just can’t stand racism,discrimination. You just can’t judge a book by its cover. People do this everyday its a shame.

          22. Witch says:

            I agree that people can make deliberate hostile comments which are more covertly racist that could be considered a “micro aggression.”
            However many people make comments or ask questions out of curiosity due to having a lack of exposure to a particular minority in their country which may also be considered a “micro aggression.”
            Asking where someone is from (meaning their ethnic background) can be seen as inherently a micro aggression now…
            It could also be a “micro aggression” if you don’t know how to pronounce a a name that is foreign to your country.
            For me context and intent is still relevant.

          23. MP says:

            I agree with you Witch. In those examples, people are just finding opportunities to be outraged and the real victim is the one being accused of micro-aggression. This has been my pet peeve for a long time as well.

          24. MP says:

            Hello Witch,

            I just want to add something about the intent regarding micro-aggression. Some things came to mind which made me want to qualify my earlier opinion.

            I think for the most part intent is definitely important. And we as empaths are often pretty good at giving people the benefit of the doubt or giving more weigh to the innocent intent than what may have been said. But something that I learned from my old business and professional ethics course stuck with me because it’s something I wish my N mom practiced. We were taught that even if we didn’t intend to offend someone, if the person felt hurt or offended and brought it up to us, we should be kind enough to consider their feelings instead of insisting that we didn’t have malice. That is where I learned how to apologize for causing the offence and clarifying that it wasn’t my intention. And also avoiding to repeat it now that we are aware that it hurts. The thing where I think it goes bad is with how the cancel culture is so strong and punitive right now where someone who made an innocent offense could totally lose his or her livelihood or get bullied for it. It doesn’t just happen to famous people. My friend told me about an acquaintance being bullied at our local hospital because she had a conversation at work and she was honest about her politics and opinions. She didn’t lose her job but it’s at the point where she feels sick going to work everyday. There has to be empathy from both sides.

          25. Witch says:


            I agree, if someone’s political views is not going to effect how well they do their job then they are entitled to their own views outside of work.

            I was having a discussion with someone online who ended up loosing their shh with me. She was arguing that race is more relevant to POC when it comes to privilege than class. I was arguing that that’s not always the case and I disagree with how the woke brigade frame “white privilege.”
            She said that POC face penalties when it comes to employment. That is true to various degrees however I argued that the woke bridge will conclude that it’s due to “white supremacy,” whilst I would argue that most people tend to gravitate towards those whom they are most familiar with, which tends to be people of the same race or ethnic background and that’s why ethnic minorities face certain penalties in a white majority country. It’s not because most white people actually hate ethnic minorities, it’s because we tend to make decisions based on emotions and tend to trust those we spent more time with during our childhoods. And although I believe we should try and address our own biases its a universal thing, not specific to white people.
            Then she lost it with me and said I was racist lol

          26. MP says:

            Hello Witch,

            You are totally right about people naturally navigating towards people that are similar to them or similar to what they are used to. I was thinking about the survey of the least racists countries that I shared here. The question they asked the determine racism was wether people would be ok having a neighbor from another race. And for me personally I know for a fact that I have zero problems having a neighbor from another race but I also know that I would be very excited if a Filipino moves in close to our house. It’s because I have a better ability to connect with them than with people who grew up here in the US. My closest a friends here are a Filipino and a Mexican and my Mexican friend has medium-dark skin that she can actually pass as a Filipino too and she looks like the friends I had in my home country. The closest white friend I have is my former boss and even though we get along and she is so sweet, I feel like there is still a wall inside me that is stopping me from really connecting with her the same way I connected with my two closest friends. It’s like I don’t really understand her in the same degree I understand the two others. My Mexican friend actually has more things in common with me than people who grew up in the US because of many cultural similarities. And also I am not a fan of attaching phobia towards people because they are not yet comfortable with other cultures. No noticed that Christians are accused of being phobic towards one religion and yet people from this religion who are absolutely intolerant of Christians are not called Christianphobic. I also don’t understand why that person you were having a discussion with lost her shh with you when you raised really valid points.

          27. Witch says:


            I’m not too friendly with my neighbours because I don’t wish to come across any narcissists on my road and draw attention from them. Sometimes I say “hi” but that’s about it.
            However I like to be be-friended by ethnic minorities more because the food a million times better and I’m happy to be invited for dinner because I like to eat.
            I have an Indian aunty at work who gives me food. I used to have a Nigerian aunty at work who would give me jollof rice but she’s gone now 🤣

        3. MP says:

          A big part of me wants hate and mean speech online to stop. But if it isn’t through voluntary change of behavior then what’s the point.

        4. Dave says:

          Agreed. I don’t care how other people want to live their lives. So don’t try to tell me how to live mine!

          The people in favor of cancel culture and control of speech are completely blind to the fact that today it’s used against us but tomorrow it will be used againsto them.
          Everyone should have the right to say what they want even when they’re are wrong.

      2. A Victor says:

        The idea of social scoring (cannot be non-subjective), the WHO creating a list of people vaccinated (our private health records no longer being private), the rewriting of history (taking our ability, thus limiting our right, to know all sides of a topic), freedom of speech being challenged on all sides (oddly and sadly, the horrible attacks on these men will likely be used to have some impact on that) etc. I wish the narcs would step down, it is frightening to see our rights under threat as they currently seem to be. My son and I started 1984 last night, I am honestly surprised that we could even find it, given the climate in the world today seeming to tend in that very direction. Glad though, good for young people to watch it.

        1. MP says:

          As long as humans are involved it cannot be unbiased. Just like the fact checking scam on Facebook and in the news that has been such a joke because of how biased it is.

        2. Dave says:

          Just watched Dr. Zivago with my family (have it on VHS) Scary how the attitudes that led to communism then are gaining ground now.

          1. HG Tudor says:

            Being out the iodine!

          2. lisk says:

            They’ve been gaining ground for the past 60 years–yes, even during the time of the filming of Dr. Z.

            We’ve been warned . . . and warned . . . and warned . . . and warned . . . !

          3. Violetta says:


            Notice how he tries to be a good sport when they take over his house, and how unimpressed they are? They’d prefer resistance; then they get to crush it.

          4. Dave says:


            I hated that part.
            Gets back home from serving his country to find they trashed his house and took all his property and tried to provoke him.
            He was smart though, he sarcastically says this is much better, more just.

  18. Asp Emp says:

    Are captions available on this video?

    1. Asp Emp says:

      Thank you, HG – I will be able to read this video and comment, if needed. I can at least share it on Facebook. Thank you 🙂

    2. Leigh says:

      HI Asp, I was able to watch with captions.

  19. Duchessbea says:

    The players played their best and gave it their all. They are a young team and have many years ahead of them to become a very strong team. Disgraceful the abuse they have received after the match. Anyone who sent those horrendous messages from the comfort of hiding behind their phones/computer screens are cowards and not true fans of the game. The fact that the team got to the finals is a massive success and great achievement and should be celebrated. Gareth Southgate did an amazing and brilliant job with the team. The players conducted themselves with dignity and respect on the pitch and should hold their heads up high, for what they achieved was brilliant. The Italians on the other-hand were the dirtiest and most violent team of players, and there should have been a lot more frees to the England players, than what there was given to the players. England players did themselves proud, did their country proud, and showed the world what a great team they are, and will be a force to be reckoned with at the World Cup in Qatar in 2022. England players hold your heads up high. You did brilliantly.

  20. lickemtomorrow says:

    I always die when a game comes down to penalties. It’s heart in your mouth stuff as you wait to see the outcome. I don’t envy any player ever put in that position, and felt the same way when I watched the game on Sunday. My first thought, with that final missed penalty, was “he’s going to be devastated.” Devastated in feeling he let the team and the country down. You could see it written all over his reaction with his team members quick to respond. Anyone with any type of empathy would able to put themselves in that young player’s shoes and imagine how he would be feeling. He was entitled to and deserving of all our sympathy. As were the others. Some of the first commentary around the scenario was criticism of the coaching and not of the players themselves.

    I appreciate your explanation, HG, around the behavoiurs of some fans and what that is based on. I’d say the majority of people are shocked and offended at how this whole thing has played out. Instead of being able to celebrate the team’s achievement in making it to the final and commisserating over their loss, it’s become another race row which it never needed to be. Boris Johnson, Prince William and Captain of the team, Harry Kane, all came out immediately to condemn the behaviour. Which is the type of leadership needed to ensure people understand the behaviour is not acceptable.

    Disappointment in the wake of England’s loss was inevitable. The racial villification was not. I was glad to see many more people rush to decry the behaviour of certain fans by their response. That is certainly a more hopeful element to come out of the whole affair.

    Thanks again for helping us make sense again of what is difficult to make sense of at times.

  21. Alexander the Authentic says:

    I am definitely glad you covered this topic HG. I was rooting for England this past weekend in the Euro Final as well as most of my friends and family here in the States. I was disappointed with the racial abuse the players received. This video gives great clarity into who is conducting the racial abuse and why they are doing it.

    I also noticed these other behaviors from fans during the Final. Booing during the opponent’s national anthem, storming Wembley Stadium with no tickets, rioting, attacking fans, and football hooliganism. Obviously there is football hooliganism everywhere as it is not only present in England. Based on what I’ve learned from this video as well as the Online Trolling video, I think it is safe to assume that these behaviors and football hooliganism can be conducted by a wide range of people.

    1. Alexissmith2016 says:

      I’m saving this one for tomorrow. All of those boys showed such amazing courage. I absolutely adore rashford, he’s amazing! Such inner strength for such a young man. How he stood up to the government to do what is right. It could have gone horribly wrong for him and then taking a penalty at a major tournament. Wow! How many people would have the courage to do what he and they did. But he stood for what he believes in and didn’t stop. To then have to deal with the racial abuse it’s just horrendous. I cannot understand why a person would take pleasure in being horrible to another.

      1. Alexander the Authentic says:

        You’re right! The lads from England gave their best and have a lot to be proud of. I did not know that about Rashford until you mentioned it. That’s pretty incredible! I’ve always liked Southgate and the English players. Fans of every team are always a mixed bag of good and bad.

        Unfortunately, I was watching the game with a family member who is a Normal. He was disappointed and he brought up the race of the three players who missed. I definitely didn’t like that, but HG’s video gave me insight into why he did that.

        It’s great to learn about empaths & narcissists, but it’s also definitely helpful to learn about the behaviors of normals and narcissistic individuals as well.

  22. Fiddleress says:

    Brilliant video. I am not exactly interested in football, but I would have liked England to win, even if I love Scotland as well.

  23. MP says:

    I had been wondering about the link of racism and narcissism. This explanation makes a lot of sense. I can’t imagine someone with empathy being racist. For as long as I can remember as a child I had natural empathy towards a group of indigenous people in my home country when I saw on TV how they were treated in a mean and discriminatory way. And that was without any education regarding discrimination or racism. It was just natural for me to know and feel that it was absolutely wrong and immoral.

    I’m starting to think my husband might be an empath because I have no memory of him being racist. Although he had been very critical of some woke people and some of them are people of color, he criticized their behaviors and hypocrisy. I had been wondering if a Normal like my husband is not racist then maybe having empathy would stop someone from being racist. But if only narcissists are racist then how come racist behaviors and systems had been dominant in some parts of history. For racism or oppression to be a norm in any point of history, it has to be accepted by the majority of people and that cannot happen if only narcissists are the ones involved in the oppression. So the involvement of the Normals makes sense.

    In my point of view, the narcissists are present in every race and every political persuasion and when narcissism manifests in someone who is an activist against racism, division (and sometimes racism) is still present in their thought process and they demonize the people that they view as oppressors in a black and white thinking manner. That has been my concern with the Critical Race Theory being taught to minors who might not have enough critical thinking abilities developed yet.

    My Mexican friend and I both experienced feeling objectified by some people who are against racism and made us feel like victims that need to be saved by them or defended by them. I remember my half sister was also very liberal and yet when it was just me and her she did behaviors that made me feel less because I am half a person of color and I am from another country. My half brother however, a liberal as well and a Normal has never done any micro-aggressions towards me even when no one else is around. The need to assert control causing someone to behave in a racist way makes so much sense since I remember those micro-aggressions happened when my half sister was not getting her way while my half brother is very successful in his life and has enough empathy and a lot of intelligence to not need to engage in that behavior.

    My UMR BIL is not racist although he enjoys mind games, triangulation and shifting sands. Racism is totally below him as he is very intelligent as well. My younger stepdaughter told him that one of the reasons she hate me aside from my age is my ethnicity and he made sure she understood how wrong that is and to never say those things again. He even advised her to learn about different cultures.

  24. Eternity says:

    This is totally unacceptable. These men tried their best. I would like to see the people that gave racial remarks make it to the finals or even make the team. I bet they can’t even kick a soccer ball. Get a life.

    1. A Victor says:

      Exactly. My thinking goes immediately to how horrible they must feel at having let down their team and their country. It’s just so wrong that they’ve been treated this way. It was such a good video for understanding the bigger picture of racism and the narcissist, really abuse in general and narcissists, and their utter lack of concern for others, their hatred even when they’re offended. I could hear the venom in HG’s voice and it took me back to many events, sad and scary events, where my narcissists had to get control. Very powerful.

      1. Eternity says:

        Of course they must have felt terrible. I saw it and felt it myself in my bones. They should be proud of even making it this far. Yes, it would have been a bonus to actually win the Euro Cup, but these people would have found something else to complain about. It is always about the control A Victor and it unfortunately it always be will. Can’t change it

    2. MP says:

      Get a life is definitely an apt statement for these people. They are most likely not successful in their own lives so they have the need to through acquisition of traits make an extension of a sports team upon themselves. It is horrible what people are able to say freely online about others.

  25. Dave says:

    Well said HG.

    I want to make the point that (as you said) not everyone cares about football [soccer to me ;)] but some people like to discuss current events.
    I believe this will give some narcs the opportunity to chime in on these events, while at the same time they don’t really care.
    Especially public figures, or narcs in leadershio positions. They may condemn the racist behavior (publicly in a boastful way, or privately to individuals) in order to maintain a facade, gain positive fuel when the narc is admired for taking a stance and standing up for the abused, and gaining the negative fuel from the abusers by shaming the abusers. Meanwhile none of this may actually matter to the narc.

    Indeed being well read in current events a narc may be able to use this as part of seduction by condemning the behavior and therefore showing a side of himself that he wants to show while just yesterday he may have been dishing out racist abuse to gain positive fuel from racists or negative fuel from tertiary (abused) sources.
    I think a narc would surely be racist if he found himself in the company of racists, and he could get away with it, or if he calculates that the potential damage to his facade isn’t that risky compared to the gains he could make by engaging in racism. Especially if there is plausible deniability?
    Example something racist spoken? Then abuse – “I never said that! I would never say something like that! You must have dreamt it and are now offending me! How dare you?!” – then silent treatment.

    If someone makes a racist remark the narc could use that to control the other person by making them feel guilty about the remark:
    Patrick Bateman tells his colleague to “cool it with the anti semitic remarks” – assertion of control?

    HG what are your thoughts on the statements above? Am I wrong about any of that?

    1. HG Tudor says:

      I agree with your observations. Many narcissists (usually Mid Range) will commandeer a position of apparent condemnation because it allows them to assert control, draw fuel and manage the facade They think they care, but they do not, their narcissism sees the behaviour as an opportunity for the narcissist to achieve the Prime Aims by appearing to care and condemning the racist behaviour.

  26. Sweetest Perfection says:

    Wonderful explanation, HG. I read Marcus Rashford’s remarks, he was clearly devastated for having missed the penalty but he said he would never apologize for who he is or his origin. It is heartbreaking. And I’m starting to feel a tremendous repulsion for normals. Wtf is wrong with them? Narcissists don’t have empathy so I kind of understand. But how can normals switch their empathy off so easily? I worry about the future of these three young players. Will they quit sports? Will they fall into athletic oblivion?

    1. HG Tudor says:

      They are not consciously switching it off. It is for the reasons explained in the video.

      1. Sweetest Perfection says:

        I know it is not conscious. It’s just difficult for me to understand how their selective empathy works. If you don’t have any, you just don’t have it. But if you have empathy, if you know what it feels like to put yourselves in someone else’s shoes, how can your brain not generate the same feelings for other humans?

        1. HG Tudor says:

          Because something else overrides it

          1. alexissmith2016 says:

            Hmmm okay so the closest I understand to switching empathy off, I’ve been painting a wall we rendered today. Normally I try and blow away any spiders/flies etc as I dont want to be responsible for their death. But today there were soooo many landing on my lovely white wall, in the end there were a fair few casualties. My empathy for them had eroded because it they were ruining my wall.

            That said, I don’t have any at all for Ns. it’s gone completely, but that does not mean I would be nasty (tricky maybe) but not downright horrible. Well…at least not in an attacking sense anyway.

          2. Sweetest Perfection says:

            Alexis, I try to keep all beings alive too. I even tried to save a mosquito from drowning in my shower the other day. I know it sounds idiotic, but I can’t just kill and move on. The “killing without feelings” is not my style ha ha.

        2. Mel says:

          External stressors.

      2. BC30 says:

        “[h]ere are many individuals who do and they are drawn from some narcissists and some normals.” Duh. It makes logical sense empaths wouldn’t watch this. Yet again, the obvious that didn’t occur to me at first glance.

  27. A Victor says:

    This is sickening.

    My mother is the most racist person I have ever known, no surprise.

    1. A Victor says:

      This explains so much.

    2. Mel says:

      What a surprise!!!

      1. A Victor says:


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