Offspring – The Narcissist and Children



I have detailed previously why it is that we regard the act of impregnation as a material asset in the narcissistic armoury. It is not only the promise of impregnation, but the act itself and what this act creates that produces a whole host of benefits for our kind. This is the approach adopted by numerous of our kind, those who see children as additional appliances from whom fuel can be drawn, pawns to be used in the repeated triangulations which can be orchestrated with the primary source and the method by which we are able to claim the achievements and the accomplishments of our issue as our own. Not all of our kind adopt that approach. There are those of us who regard the idea of offspring as a threat and a hindrance to our agendas.

Why would we want someone to come along and steal our limelight? From the moment a child is born it is sufficiently pathetic that it requires nigh on twenty four hour assistance. It cannot walk, it cannot feed itself, it cannot clothe itself or wash itself. It must be tended for on a repeated basis. If you were to look to us to do this, you would find that there would not be any assistance forthcoming. Not only are we notorious in our desire to shirk menial tasks (unless we see that there is some considerable benefit in us doing so) but we do not see why we should have our needs pushed to one side in order to facilitate the care of another. Even though that child is a product of our loins, there are those of our kind who adopt such a view. You ought not to be surprised by that. We behave the same with our parents, siblings and wider relatives. We are like that with friends of both short and long-standing duration and naturally we behave in such a way with the person we supposedly love, our intimate partner. Why then would you expect anything different from us in respect of a child. In such circumstances therefore, the decision not to have children would be regarded as a blessing I am sure by your kind. We could not countenance that all of the emotional attention would be directed and fixated on such a helpless being. Here we are, magnificent and brilliant and you choose to direct your fuel to somebody else. That is an insult indeed to us and a mighty criticism which would wound us considerably.

Our resources would also be sought for this new arrival. Time, energy, finances and so forth. We regard our resources as ours alone and begrudge sharing them, unless such largesse brings additional reward for us. This selfishness is necessary in order to preserve ourselves and the fact that a child needs our resources is not going to change that mind set. We do not do anything just for the sake of doing so. There must be an ulterior motive to our actions. Pouring our resources towards somebody who will be oblivious to this for some time is not something that finds favour with some of our kind.

From your perspective we know you regard us as selfish for behaving this way. We regard it as self-preservation. You are the givers and the carers, we are not. If you wish to judge us for adopting such a stance, so be it, but for those of our kind who regard the issue of children as something to be avoided, that position is most unlikely to alter. We see only loss. Loss of our resources and loss of our fuel. Whilst some of our kind regard the additional benefits which can be derived from having children (the binding of the primary source, additional fuel provision, potential for traits and triangulation etc.) as worth obtaining despite the likelihood of reduced fuel from the primary source and reduced resources, there are also those from our ranks who assess the situation and decide it is not a price they wish to pay.

What is behind that? Why is it that some of our number opt to have children and others refrain from doing so? I cannot offer a definitive answer, although I consider, from my experience and those that I have engaged with that the proportion of our kind who decide to have children is greater than those who do not. I suspect the temptations of further fuel provision and triangulation prove quite the draw. It also highly likely that the idea of securing our legacy through children proves attractive as well. Seeing our own image and knowing that it will, more likely than not, outlive our mortal selves, does appeal to the need to maintain our idea of omnipotence. See how mighty we are that our influence lives on in our offspring and will do so in their own as our dynasty is forged. Such a notion does provide its own appeal.

What of me? What tipped the balance for me so that I opted to remain child-free in order to remain light on my feet, unhindered and fully-resourced. Was it the factors I have described above which caused me to decide that having children was not for me? In part yes, although I readily admit that the other elements and benefits from having issue are attractive. No, whilst I weighed up these various benefits and disadvantages it was something from my past which proved to be the deciding factor. It was something that has resonated with me for some time and something that somehow buried deep inside me and stayed there for a while until I decided to act on it and made my decision as to my destiny in respect of children. The idea of seeing those in my own image wending their way through the world and following in my footsteps was a strong pull, a strong pull indeed, but ultimately it came down to something else. This may be applicable to others of our kind as well, but for me the decision came down to this.

I could not take the risk of him or her or them reminding me of you and what you did to me.

Those words will never be forgotten.

112 thoughts on “Offspring – The Narcissist and Children

  1. Saskia says:

    Talked to mother on the telephone recently because it was my birthday. Mother and I talked about my little goddaughter when she explained to me that she hopes that my niece will always stay sweet, delightful and the ‚little sunshine‘ that she is now (1 year old) because „unfortunately, many children become very difficult and not so pleasant when they grow older“. I am a slow learner when it comes to applying my knowledge to people close to me – therefore my question: this is not only a perfect demonstration of her mindset and emotional immaturity but also a not so subtle devaluation of me, correct?

    1. HG Tudor says:

      Correct. You were triangulated in order to provoke and draw fuel from you.

      1. Saskia says:

        Thank you, HG – your neutral confirmation is very helpful since my ET is still very high when it comes to my family and cognitive dissonance governs my thought processes in that regard. Her remark made a nice birthday present.

        1. HG Tudor says:

          Not a problem. Yes, my position of objectivity and neutrality is what ought to be harnessed by readers to their betterment.

    2. FYC says:

      Saskia, I would say you read that perfectly. Happy birthday to you!

  2. Supernova DE says:

    I had my mom pegged as the narc in my family, but I think I was wrong. I think she is Co-D. Still not sure if my dad was a narc or not. Honestly, he was never around, literally almost always out of the house at work or doing whatever he wanted. When he was at home he was reading the newspaper or watching TV behind a closed door by himself.
    Seems odd that a narc wouldn’t interact with his family more for fuel purposes, so maybe he wasn’t.

    Unfortunately, I wouldn’t even have enough to tell HG via narc detector to get an answer. And the same is actually true of my mother.

    THAT is how I can tell there was some kind of emotional neglect, because when it comes down to it, I know absolutely nothing about my parents, and they know nothing about me.

  3. Supernova DE says:

    HG, this is a good article, thank you!

    The MMRN said so many weird and conflicting things about kids.
    He admitted he was happy to have two children with IPPS, so that he was more bonded to her than her first husband (they had one together, and she is definitely the scapegoat poor girl).

    During seduction when I was lamenting the stress of three small children, he said, “It’s hard now, but when they’re a little older, you’ll feed off their energy and be so proud of them.”

    Bragged about his boys athletic abilities (even once showed me a photo of his 10 year old’s calf muscles!!!!?!!) and about their IQ and academic achievements.

    “Babies are nauseating.” – said when I was on maternity leave from my third baby…pretty weird timing if you ask me.

    After I asked him if his boys will follow his footsteps and be into fixing up cars – “No.” I thought a one word response to this was strange…perhaps because they don’t spend any actual time with him?

    Looking back, all of this was so obviously narc speak haha!

    1. HG Tudor says:

      You are welcome.

  4. NarcAngel says:

    With regard to the subject of HG and SM and the possibility of having children, I see concern with regard to the honesty and timing of discussion in order to have the best outcome for the relationship, I see it expressed that they have the right to, I see hope that this new dynamic will allow for the balance of parenting required………I see a lot of hope.

    I don’t however see any for the children.

  5. kel says:

    HG, do you think your father protecting your siblings kept them from developing into narcissists?

    1. HG Tudor says:

      With my sister, yes. With my brother I do not see that he had the genetic predisposition.

      1. kel says:

        I know that you’ve said you looked out for your brother, do you think you had a positive impact on him?

        1. HG Tudor says:


          1. kel says:

            Sorry, I forgot who I was asking that question to. My narc brother looked after me too, and influenced me in a lot of ways.

  6. SMH says:

    MRN once tried triangulating me with another woman. She was much younger than him (and me) and was obviously looking for a life partner, so things never progressed, also because it was then that MRN and IPPS decided to reconcile (and first I heard about IPPS or the OOW – other other woman).

    A few months later, when we were back together he told me that she wanted children so he knew it wouldn’t have lasted a year (he would have left). He already had 3 kids almost grown and he did not want to be tied down by kids again.

    I do not judge him for not wanting more children – I don’t want to be with someone with children (grown is fine, younger is not) and I never wanted more than one myself. It was more the way he said it, as if he would not have given a second thought to leaving the OOW.

    HG, I see reading the comments now that you have had a vasectomy. Well, you can always have it reversed or adopt. But this is something you should definitely sort out in your own mind and discuss with SM if you have progressed to that point. There are plenty of reasons not to have children that have nothing to do with being a narc but if you two are not in agreement, it will destroy your relationship.

    In another post here I am going to write about an ex of mine who was sexually abused by his mother. He too never had children.

  7. Q says:

    Gee, folks, you read one post about children and you start trumpeting wishful comments about blue eyed todlers like you have no idea whose blog this is. You prove you have learned NOTHING at all about narcissism inspite of reading and educating on the subject for a vedere long time. The guy told you hundreads times narcissists do not change and what do you do? You hope this time he will finally find true love and fantasize about a paternal HG with a blue eyed kid in a pram…what is this, a Disney movie?!?!?! What’s wrong with you??? Even when you know EVERHTHING about the subject from the Grand Master Himself you still believe what you want to believe…. Be realistic, use your brain and apply what he has taught you. You read his blog and books, you DO know what we are talking about.
    There is no wonder you keep making the same mistakes in your own life. If this is what it takes to be an empath, I am glad I am not one.

    1. Mercy says:

      Q, are you talking to someone specifically? I’m confused, I only see a few in support of children. Maybe I’m confused because I’m a brainless, Disney watching empath.

    2. Mercy says:

      And BTW, Disney princesses don’t have babies. They’re too worried about prince charming. Geez!!

    3. K says:

      I agree with you.

      1. Mercy says:

        K, I agree with no children but I don’t agree with generalizing all empaths.

        1. K says:

          When I read Q’s comment, I thought: This is a good example of the empath’s emotional thinking hijacking logic, so I understood why she responded the way she did, however, not all empaths are ruled by their ET either and that’s why it is important not to generalize.

          1. Mercy says:

            K, I guess my comment got hijacked by ET as well haha. Thanks for the reminder!

          2. K says:

            My pleasure Mercy!
            ET is understandable and we all succumb to it but recognizing it is half the battle.
            My last comment wasn’t very clear but I think Q was pointing out that the empaths were not using logic and I sensed her frustration and disbelief at the “blue-eyed baby in a pram fantasy; hence her palpable relief that she is not an empath.

          3. Mercy says:

            K, I’ll admit I was opened jawed when I read the baby comments. My first thought was no no no.

            I was thinking about ET and how I respond to certain situations. One thing I’ve always felt was my strong point is that I do speak my mind but I’m open to others opinions. Often times I will speak up in someone’s defense and the core of that is ET. That’s not something I want to lose but it’s good that I can identify it now and back it up with logical thought.

          4. K says:

            I am with you on this one and I felt apprehensive when I read the comments, too.

            Speaking up and voicing your thoughts is an admirable quality and you are correct; it is important to be open to other opinions, as well, or else you just live in an echo chamber. The core of speaking up in someone’s defense is an empath trait and it also comes from a position of logic. It is the way the defense is presented that matters and Identifying ET is paramount because it allows you to go forward in a logical and sensible manner.

      2. SMH says:

        I have no opinion about whether or not HG should have children – he can do whatever the hell he wants. But I would like to point out that many of us on here have narc parents and we seem to have turned out more or less alright. I don’t see that our problems are any worse than a lot of problems people have with life, narc parent(s) or not.

    4. Chihuahuamum says:

      Hi Q…i agree with your post and its hard as an empath to keep from being hopeful that people can change and seeing the good in them despite that they are a narcissist. Thats where emotional thinking and logic come in. Im trying to keep more to the logic side.
      I also think people are hopeful bc we like the HG we have gotten to know here and want to see things work out for him and sheildmaiden. I do agree with what you say tho logically its a slim chance. I dont give up hoping tho. For those in relationships with narcissists thats a dangerous thing. Your post points that out and is a much needed slap of reality.

      1. Q says:

        You should not like HG, but use him. He is not your friend and never will be. He is a super smart individual with zero empathy who has this wonderful blog and it accidentally happens that he writes a about things important to you. We fuel him in many ways, that’s all. Use him, because he is damn good at what he is doing, way better than many therapists, but do not make the mistake to believe there is a connection, there isn’t. What you perceive as a connection is entirely one sided, to quote him, “a construct of your ET”. When you manage to fully grasp this, then you are better armed in you own NON/NPD dynamics. Educating yourself about narcissism is entirely useless if you cannot apply the knowledge in a practical way. You are here because a NPD hurt you and it will happen again if you keep thinking your interractions with NPDs in terms of liking and feeling, especially now, when you know from the start with who you are dealing.
        P.S. I do value HG ‘s work a lot and I have no intention to undermine him. It’s been a valuable help for me. I just say let’s practice his teachings.

        1. HG Tudor says:

          Eminently sensible post.

    5. mommypino says:

      Hi Q, my comment about HG being ok to have kids with SM were made only for their unique situation. I wouldn’t advocate for other narcs to have kids at all. I just believe that he being a Super Empath and him having such great control, awareness and fuel matrix, they could both navigate through the challenges better.

    6. nunya biz says:

      I agree with everyone.

    7. Anm says:

      Q, I disagree. I do not think that it is complete doom with a narcissist/Psychopath having children. There are many obstacles and challenges that face narcissistic parenting, I wouldn’t say it is guarantee failed parenting.
      Did you read about the Research Psychologist who did studies on Psychopath’s brain scans? While doing his research on how Psychopath’s brains work, he found out he toowas a Psychopath. His family said that he did not display criminal or abusive behavior, but he was very detached from other family members emotionally, but they contributed that trait to being a dr, and there was no major complaints about his parenting.
      I think there are certain environmental factors/crisis and enabling situation that triggers Psychopaths to be abusive to their families. This is why one has to be very careful how they coparent with a narcissist.
      HG has any God given right to parent if he wishes, like the rest of us. I’m not in a position to vote whether or not he should have kids.

  8. Rebecca Sager says:

    H.G. children also help the facade to they not? Family people (mothers and fathers) are seen as better people by society for some reason. My stepnarc certainly got off on the pity fuel she would get from having “oh so many children”. Now that she’s older and we’re all grown she denies we stepchildren exist since we are no longer useful. No one even bats an eye over it though.

    It’s why parents can get away with doing horrific things to their kids for so long. No one wants to believe a parent could hurt their child so they look the other way. Happened to me constantly.

    I give you much respect for your choice not to have children. Some people may think it sad or that somehow the magic of parenthood (or I guess it’s suppose to be love?) will fix everything but honestly, as someone who grew up with a narc. It’s a mercy and I thank you for choosing to not subject a child to that.

    1. HG Tudor says:

      Yes, children are appliances for the purposes of the extraction of fuel, they are used to triangulate (usually with the IPPS) and they are part of the façade.

    2. Anm says:

      Narcs have children (and keep their children) for:
      *facade management and fuel
      *triangulation and abuse to IPPS
      *legacy (living through children’s accomplishments/turn children into mini me narcissist)
      *parentification (children act as caregiver for narcissist)

      Additional reasons I am listing are for Narcissist who live in USA, because I can only speak for my country and what I see:
      *Government assistance given to families with dependents: WIC, FOODSTAMPS, STATE FUNDED HEALTHCARE (seen mostly with Lesser Narcissist). I am not shaming anyone on government assistance, but Lessser Narcissist will use their children for aide.
      * Tax Benefits ( Lessers, Midrangers, and Greaters). This subject is argued a lot with narcissist. “Who gets to claim the children on Tax Returns?” There are specific guidelines with IRS Dependent Claims. It is usually the Primary Caregiver Parent; If there is joint custody, than there is supposed to be a rotation with who gets to claim the children. Narcissist love to mess with this. You can bet that they will claim their children on additional years that they are not entitled to so that they can recieve a higher tax return, or help with back taxes owed. They will cheat and lie to the IRS every year if they could.

  9. Anm says:

    Here is a weird predicament I am suddenly facing. I have mentioned how I have 2 children from 2 different narcissist. My son is 8 years old, and his father is a Midrange Cerebral; and my daughters father is an Upper Lesser Somatic. My son doesn’t know about narcissism, but he can tell that his father and my daughters father have some things in common- on his own, he is figuring out split thinking , high conflict arguing, etc.
    His father, the Midrange Cerebral just established his first serious romantic relationship since we split over 8 years ago. My son is soooo emotional about it, as any child would be. This is something new for him, he is learning about the birds and the bees, but he also makes comments like “after dad is done giving her flowers and stuff, this is going to become a disaster and everyone will get hurt”.
    I have no clue what to say about that. Because his dad is a Midranger, there is a chance it could be a long term relationship, but again, its still a narcissist relationship.

    1. HG Tudor says:

      You are best served by providing your good offices to your son and avoiding the issue of the narcissist. His comment, whilst accurate, cannot be linked to narcissism as he will not be able to understand the concept of narcissism and all that is associated with it.

      1. Anm says:

        Thank you, HG. I have kept bringing up that his father is a narcissist. It maybe best to get him to see a counselor or something to sort this out. He seems to be analyzing situations that are subjects out of his age group. This is obviously from having a Narc father, and an over thinking empath mother. Thanks again

        1. FYC says:

          Anm, Please forgive if this comment is out of line as I do not have children, but it seems to me, it is important for your son to know he is in no way responsible for whatever takes place with his father.

          A friend of mine with kids (aged 8 and 11) went through a viciously destructive divorce with what I now assume was a low cognitive narcissist/psychopath. In wanting to protect her kids and clear herself from his smears, she told her kids often about their father’s narcissism. He retaliated with amplified destruction. The kids knew the father was hurtful, but had a difficult time understanding narcissism (as HG states) and they also were trying to reconcile what it meant about themselves being his offspring. The kids are now in college, but still suffer from the effects of a devastating experience even though the father is dead. Wishing you and your kids much healing and peace.

          1. Anm says:

            Not out of line one bit. Everything posted should be open for discussion. I meant to say that I KEPT FROM mentioning his father is a narcissist to my son. Thank goodness I have not had to go through the court systems with his father, nevertheless, the conflict is still present and created out of nothing.
            I will still talk highly of his father. I will tell him memories of the good times I had with his father. I dont talk about narcissism in general, but try to equipt him with how to deal with it. Example, I try to teach him to have independent emotions and opinions from others.

  10. Lou says:

    I just read this one for the first time and it’s left me broken-hearted because it reminded me of the abuse you suffered as a little child and how your mother not only allowed it but added to it.

    1. NarcAngel says:

      Yes. His mother was not the only abuser, and her refusal to acknowledge that someone else did and address it an even worse betrayal.

      1. Mercy says:

        NA, I didn’t know there was another abuser. Is the info written somewhere or just through discussion?

        1. NarcAngel says:

          He was abused by his Aunt. It’s been discussed but I’ve read so much for so long that I can’t remember exactly where it was first referenced.

        2. K says:

          Mercy and NarcAngel
          It is on this thread. The Cookie Jar, April 2017.

          HG Tudor
          APRIL 3, 2017 AT 22:26
          My father was my natural father. Grandmother referred to in the article is maternal grandmother.
          Uncle is brother of Matrinarc, aunt is his wife.
          My aunt sexually abused me.

          Use the shortcut control+F/Command+F (mac)
          Use these keywords: Little Boy Lost, victim, aunt, sexual abuse,

          1. Mercy says:

            NA & K, thank you.

            I saw the words “sexual abuse” and felt like I got punched in the gut. I had no idea. I try to avoid reading about HGs childhood 1. I don’t handle stories of abused children well. I have a hard time setting those emotions aside 2. Excusing adult behavior because of childhood abuse could easily get me in trouble with my own situation. If I allow myself to have empathy toward HG does that mean I have to have empathy toward my abuser?

            There are many things I avoid reading out of fear of facing emotions but Im starting to understand the importance of learning the whole story.

            PS who was Vashti? She was popcorn worthy

          2. Twilight says:


            Vashti is a delusional mid ranger.

          3. K says:

            My pleasure Mercy
            It is very difficult to read about his childhood abuse and how it was swept under the rug. I feel angry and sad that he wasn’t protected by his parents, especially his father.

            Your empathy for HG is indicative of your social intelligence and humanity and that is an act of love. You do not have to have empathy for your abuser, that is perfectly fine and understandable. You are ambivalent/conflicted and that is normal.

            It is very important to learn the whole story because that is central to truly understanding someone else’s perspective. Allow yourself to feel your emotions: the good, the bad and the ugly, they will pass and it will make you stronger and wiser.

            Vashti was popcorn worthy and one of HG’s kind.

          4. NarcAngel says:

            Thanks K
            That was an interesting thread to read going back. Annoying at the time in having to deal with the two for one of both Vashti and ED (OT) but both entertaining and good for demonstration purposes all the same. In Vashtis case for instance, her fury seemed to ignite when HG wrote that he did not enjoy the music she offered. Too funny.

          5. K says:

            My pleasure NarcAngel
            That is a very interesting thread and I really learned quite a bit from it. Once your ET is under control, you can see the dynamic play out so much better. The archives are full of information that demonstrates the NPD dynamic in ways that no other blog, study or college course could even come close to replicating. If I were a researcher or psychologist, I would be on the blog every day sucking up all this good data.

          6. NarcAngel says:

            Oh I’m quite sure there are those sucking up the data here and even trying to pass it off as their own. The downside of being the trailblazer that HG is and the best source of information available. They fail in comparison miserably though in all aspects.

          7. K says:

            No one comes even close to HG and narcsite and I don’t think anyone ever will.

          8. mommypino says:

            Wow, that is horrible. Did his father know about that? Sorry I can’t go to the link because the page is being blocked, I don’t know if it was addressed there. It is always heartbreakingly horrific to have an innocent child feel betrayed by the person he was counting on. There was a commenter her who told me that HG looked up to his matrinarc more than his father as a child.

          9. K says:

            I agree; child abuse is the ultimate betrayal.

            APRIL 3, 2017 AT 23:13
            OMG HG. That is awful. I really feel for you. How dare she. Could you not disclose it to dad? I know the era was different then and as a society we are much more aware of this. So even although you abuse you have a terrible story within. Do you think you became a narc because of this abuse? Again I feel for you not that you know what that is but it’s to say how dare she!!!

            HG Tudor
            APRIL 12, 2017 AT 12:21
            Thank you SVR. This and other matters, along with a genetic predisposition made me what I am.
            No I could not disclose it to my father, he knew, but there was no point.

          10. mommypino says:

            K, thank you . My heart is breaking for this. It really is the ultimate betrayal. You know how your kids have unquestioning trust and reliance on you. It’s the same with me and my kids. It’s horrible that his mom betrayed him and horrible that his dad had let him down.

          11. K says:

            My pleasure mommypino
            Children rely on their parents to love, protect and care for them and, when children are subjected to such inexcusable abuse, it is no surprise that they become narcissists, Co-Ds, BPD, psychopaths or empaths.

            I am disappointed that his father didn’t do more to protect him.

          12. mommypino says:

            K, I was able to go to your link yesterday and it’s so sad when HG said that he felt safe in his tree. No child should ever be made to feel that way.
            It is hard to judge and I wonder if in those times culturally people thought that boys that have been sexually abused is not a big deal because they are boys anyway. I do not know about the mindset of the adults but to a child it doesn’t make any difference; nobody was there to make him feel safe. He had no control.
            My ET may have caused me to react strongly about his dad. I’m still sure that he loved HG deeply. But love isn’t enough. It is interesting that HG cannot love but with Shieldmaiden he feels adoration, pride and being protective of her. He doesn’t love her but he protects her. As a parent it shouldn’t just end in loving our kids. We should also make sure that they are protected and we make them confident enough that they can always go to us whenever they are hurt.

          13. K says:

            That made me feel very sad, as well. No child should have to isolate themselves to feel safe. That is unacceptable. I try to come from a position of understanding but I am disappointed that HG’s father didn’t do more to protect him. HG’s father did love him, however, part of the responsibility of being a parent is to protect your children so we will just have to wait for Little Boy Lost to get more details about it.

            I am also waiting on more details about the new dynamic but my understanding, so far, is as follows:

            1. SM is not an appliance (viewed differently).
            2. HG is not mirroring.
            3. It is still about him meeting his needs.
            4. He is protective of Shieldmaiden, although not an asset, because it serves him.
            5. He feels admiration and pride for her, possibly as an extension of him to fulfill one of the Prime Aims, residual benefits: facade maintenance.

            All children should be able to go to their parent(s) for protection and, when children can’t do that, it is an unforgivable betrayal.

          14. mommypino says:

            So perfectly said K.

            Regarding HG and Shieldmaiden, I did notice the factors that you have enumerated. I don’t think that any of us should expect a complete and drastic change from a narcissist; it’s unfair and highly unlikely (except for a miracle). But I acknowledge the baby steps of change. She is highly possibly an extension of him, especially since he is not mirroring her. I don’t know how to put words into what I am thinking. I think that the fact that he is not mirroring her is also indicative of him not viewing her as an appliance but more like an extension of himself. It is also interesting to take note of Shieldmaiden’s similarity with Amanda, his unrequited love before he had his first relationship. I don’t know how all of these are connected and how they all play a factor but I still think that it might work. I hope it does for both of them.

          15. K says:

            Thank you mommypino
            I am hopeful, too, and we will have to wait and see how it goes and the new dynamic also applies to certain people in his fuel matrix, as well, with most of his effort focused on the SM.

            It will be interesting to see how it progresses, fingers crossed! I don’t want to see anyone hurt.

          16. mommypino says:

            K, just to clarify, what I meant by drastic or impossible change is for example some people ask HG to love Shieldmaiden which is nearly impossible because he has NPD. I remember reading before about the psychopath scientist James Fallon saying that before he found out that he’s a psychopath, his wife had comments about his behavior that needed improvement but he didn’t care and didn’t understand. Now that he knows he has made adjustments to his behaviors and his wife appreciates it. I think that if there is acceptance from both sides it can work.

          17. K says:

            Thank you for the link to the James Fallon article mommypino. He is an interesting man and a good example of a nonviolent primary psychopath.
            Environment plays an important role in the Cluster Bs.

          18. mommypino says:

            K, I found the article about Fallon. Although I didn’t remember it perfectly correct, it is close enough I think.

            “For myself, I decided to try to treat my wife and other loved ones with more care. Each time I’m about to interact with them, I pause for a moment and asked “what would a good person do here?” and notice that my instinct is to always do the most selfish thing at that moment. My wife started noticing this and after two months said “what has come over you?”. When I told her that I was trying to use my own narcissism to show that I could, against all odds, overcome my psychopathy, she said she appreciated the effort even though I was not sincere. I still don’t understand how she can accept that insincerity. Perhaps people just want to be treated with respect and kindness. I find that astonishing.”


          19. nfl3 says:

            Thank you, K. I am having a difficult time after reading that. It is helpful to know; and as always I’m grateful to HG for his wonderful writings and being so open about his past.

          20. K says:

            My pleasure nfl3
            It is very difficult to read about HG’s childhood abuse and the impact it had on him. No child should be abused like that, ever. They should be loved and protected.

          21. SMH says:

            K, I had no idea about the sexual abuse. I’ve read the Cookie Jar post before but not all the comments (and before my time). Thanks for that and HG, so sorry this happened to you. Child sexual abuse is not something I find it easy to get my head around. I have to rethink everything now.

          22. K says:

            My pleasure. It is awful SMH. Absolutely heartbreaking to read and it does make you think.

          23. SMH says:


            I realized that I do have some knowledge. I had a partner for about 4 years who had been sexually abused by his mother and then he sexually abused his younger brother. His mother would bring him into bed at night and place his hands on her breasts. He forced his younger brother to give him oral sex. He never wanted kids or had any, but he was very good with mine and I never once worried about it. He also had good familial relationships by the time we met, including with the brother he had assaulted.

            However, his father sexually harassed/assaulted me twice and that is one reason the relationship did not work out. It was as if this family had somehow assimilated inappropriate sexual activities into their personal dynamic.

            I never gave any of this more thought until I saw that HG was sexually abused by his aunt. My ex was kind, thoughtful and deep but he was also bipolar and an alcoholic. By the time we met he was medicated and hadn’t had a drink for many years, so I did not see the worst of it. He went to AA meetings religiously and was in a profession (theatre) that allowed for dramatic self-expression, so he had two outlets that weren’t me.

            HG, I think your writing is a creative outlet for you but have you ever considered group therapy of some sort for survivors of childhood sexual abuse? I don’t know if my ex had that, but AA seemed to help him an awful lot and obviously your blog is a form of group therapy that is helping a lot of us, so I wonder if something similar would help you?

            After watching Leaving Neverland and reading all of this stuff about the Catholic Church, I also realize that boys have been neglected in the discourse about childhood sexual abuse. They are not well protected and then they are taught to bottle everything up and move on.

          24. HG Tudor says:

            No, I appreciate the constructive intention behind your suggestion SMH but that is not something I would do. I have dealt with it in my own way and continue to do so. Effectively.

          25. SMH says:

            I understand, HG. Everyone has to deal with their shit in their own way. I probably wouldn’t do real life group therapy either as I am not a joiner. For instance, I probably should have been in Narcotics (not Narcs!) Anonymous long ago but never went. Yet I did want you to know in case you had not explored that option. I am glad what you are doing has been effective for you.

          26. K says:

            Incest is common in this dynamic, as well as, emotional incest and, from my POV, it is abhorrent, however, from their POV, it is necessary.

            I am not surprised his father harassed/assaulted you. The police suspected Steven Powell of having a sexual interest in his daughter-in-law Susan, the missing Utah mother whose remains have never been found. That was a very sad case.

          27. nunya biz says:

            Yes and I remember it is a coping mechanism. That helps with ET and reactions.

            Heartbreaking read. I have been grateful multiple times toward men who have had the bravery to discuss their personal abuse stories to help others. I admire it and often men are discouraged in particular.

          28. FYC says:

            Mommiepino, Thank you for sharing that link. Fascinating reading.

            “Why in the light of the fact I have all of the biological markers for psychopathy, including a turned off limbic system, the high risk genetic alleles, and the attendant behaviours, including well over half of those listed in the psychopathy tests and low emotional empathy, did I turn out to be a successful professor and family man? One most likely reason is that although I have the genetic makeup of a “born” psychopath, some of those very same “risk” genes in someone showered with love (versus abuse or abandonment), from childbirth through the critical first few years of life, appear to offset the psychopathy-inducing effects of the other “risk” genes.”

            This paragraph offers prime support for HG’s theory of narcissist and/or psychopath origin being one part genetics and one part the parental seed.

            A further interesting note, one of the psychologist that pioneered studies on the human brain of psychopaths (in this case serial killers and other murders) decided to take the same fMRI test himself, and found to his surprise, his brain mapped the same as a psychopath. I will try to find this study if you are interested.

  11. Christopher Jackson says:

    I have to say I am kind of confused about the ending…but i know that is one of the tactics that you have mentioned previously in other i am not sure what to believe.

  12. foolme1time says:

    HG, what I wrote in my earlier comment about the two of you having children was only if you were starting to feel your emotions returning. If SM has reached a part of you that know one else has been able to reach and that feeling of love for her is truly there then I think you would also love the children that she would give you. But if it is only infatuation that will disappear over time then I think your first decision not to have children is the correct one. It wouldn’t matter how much you changed your dynamic. To have a child and not truly feel love for that child is horrible. I mean no disrespect to you HG, but when it comes to children who are our greatest gifts and deserve all the love we can give them, pretending or acting like you do just doesn’t cut it.

  13. Anja Weise says:

    Hello H.G,

    have you planed any translations into german?????
    I need help in my m8ther language for a deeper understanding.


    1. HG Tudor says:

      Hello Anja, not at this time, no.

  14. TY says:

    HG, I can appreciate you not wanting to be reminded of the terrible abuse you suffered from your Matrinarc, but I am certainly glad your Matrinarc did not make a similar choice, or we would not have you, and that would be a great loss. You and your works are so helpful to so many and have literally changed lives for the better. Of course, your dark arts would be missed by no one but you, so I am sure your victims would have a different view, but as for us, your readers, we are so glad you were born. Of course your value is intrinsic and not merely defined by your works or traits, but since I do not know you I can only refer to your works. That said, I do respect your choice.

  15. Narc noob says:

    Do you have any brand new blogs? Most I have seen are re-runs. Up to 4 of the same topic but just titled differently??

    1. HG Tudor says:

      Have you read everything, including all of the books? If so, I salute you for doing so, if not, you will find plenty of material to keep you quiet.

  16. Whitney says:

    I found the ending so emotive. It’s hard to believe you’re a psychopath. It confuses me. I think my Narc was emotional. Tortured.

    1. mommypino says:

      Whitney, narcs play the emotionally tortured card sometimes if it serves their purpose. The Mid-Rangers are the most notorious for that. They have no remorse, empathy, guilt, and cannot love but have huge entitlement. So when they are emotionally tortured, it’s just about something that they believe they didn’t get.

  17. mommypino says:

    “I could not take the risk of him or her or them reminding me of you and what you did to me.”

    I’m sorry, I might be overthinking but we’re you referring to the mother of your potential child, the IPPS as the one you don’t want to be reminded of or your matrinarc and what she did to you?

    HG, you don’t need to answer this if too intrusive. Since Shield Maiden, have you changed your mind about not wanting kids? Have you had a discussion about this with her yet? Do you know if she wants to be a mother?

    1. HG Tudor says:

      This has not been discussed, so far.

      1. foolme1time says:

        Well, what are you waiting for? She is obviously the one you have been waiting for your whole life. She is the one you have changed your dynamic for and the one that has you bringing those emotions and feelings you have buried away for so many years to the forefront. I realize having children is a very serious decision and would involve a whole different set of rules in changing your dynamic even further. I believe you would be a wonderful father and with SM beside you she would not let you fail. A little blonde haired blue eyed girl would be the apple of your eye. A little blonde haired blue eyed boy would ensure your legacy continues and would also allow you to raise him the way you should of been raised. What ever your decision is on this subject is purely between you and SM. I was only offering words of encouragement H G. Have a beautiful weekend and enjoy each other.

        1. HG Tudor says:

          Most kind of you.

      2. mommypino says:

        Thank you HG. I know that this is none of my business but just my opinion it is a good topic to discuss about early on. I know that I have said in your blog many times that I don’t believe you have to tell her that you are a narc. I still believe that way because she can always leave if she is not happy whether she knows that you’re a narc or not. But this I think should be discussed early on because women have biological clocks ticking and the consequences can be irreversible. I might get blasted for this opinion by a lot of ACoNs like me, but I don’t necessarily think that it’s a terrible idea for you to have kids either. You are very aware and seem to have a lot more control and options for alternative fuel and if the SE mom makes sure that you’re treating the kids right and are always protecting the kids then it might work. Just my opinion. I’m hoping for the beat for you and Shieldmaiden.

        And also you don’t have to allow your kids to be a memory of you at your weakest and most vulnerable phase when you were being abused. You don’t always have to remember memories the same way all the time. You can change it by changing it for them, empowering that little boy you were by empowering your kids.

        1. WhoCares says:


          “I might get blasted for this opinion by a lot of ACoNs like me, but I don’t necessarily think that it’s a terrible idea for you to have kids either.”

          I can’t remember where this information is available, likely on a blog post somewhere, but HG has revealed that he’s had a vasectomy.

          1. K says:

            Here it is.

            HG Tudor
            JUNE 29, 2016 AT 13:21
            No, no close calls. It is impossible.

            JUNE 29, 2016 AT 13:29
            Ohhhh…did you have the snip snip procedure done?

            HG Tudor
            JUNE 29, 2016 AT 13:42
            Yes with insurance.


          2. WhoCares says:

            Thanks K!

          3. K says:

            My pleasure WhoCares!

        2. ava101 says:

          A choice to leave HG? Hmm ….
          However: I think that ship has sailed @ children.
          I agree on that stealing her time part.

          My parents both were extremely keen on seeing us children be like perfect little children: playing kind of happily, having what they ever had (growing up during the war both of them).
          That doesn’t mean that they developed empathy, caring, didn’t act like narcissistic parents, and traumatized me. There was still emotional neglect.
          They never had any interest in ME (or my sisters) which became apparent the more we developed our own personalities – independent thoughts / interests, etc. were negated, some things simply forbidden.

          I also don’t think that narc parents can bear to see their children at each stage being happier than they have been at that stage themselves, or more successful, or better at anything. Or not be jealous. That is one of the core make-up parts of me having 0 confidence, and one of my default constellations in any relationship: the other person MUST be in the center, I am not being seen/heard. Like my father / parents.

          I short: I think HG has made a very good decision.
          But, for heaven’s sake, HG, I hope you’ve told her!

          1. windstorm says:

            “I also don’t think that narc parents can bear to see their children at each stage being happier than they have been at that stage themselves, or more successful, or better at anything.”

            I agree. It’s like a war going on within narc parents. They want everyone to see how successful their children are, but at the same time they can’t stand their children to be more than they were themselves. It makes for a confusing, stressful and of course – loveless – childhood.

          2. mommypino says:

            Hi Ava101,

            Thank you for your response. I am sorry that you didn’t experience unconditional love and acceptance from your parents. From your comments on this blog that I was able to read, you have a lot to be confident about yourself. But I understand that if we were raised in such a dysfunctional way where we were constantly criticized, humiliated, neglected and made to feel that we could never measure up to their impossible standards, we develop a habit of being overly critical to ourselves as well. I’m sorry that both of your parents were narcs. I can totally understand your point of view and why you disagree with me.

            I agree with you that Shieldmaiden should know HG’s thoughts on having or not having kids. I just think that if she wants to have kids, it shouldn’t be an automatic deal-breaker. If both of them decide that they will want kids, I think that HG needs to fess up to her that he is a narc and a psychopath so that she will have an informed decision about bringing an innocent person into this world into that dynamic. But I think that there is a chance that it will work for them because of HG’s level of awareness and control and because she is a Super Empath who will keep him in line. I know a lot of people who still had happy childhoods with one parent having issues and the other parent making up for the other’s deficiency. The mother needs to be a really strong person to be able to accomplish this. It’s not an easy road so they will have to decide if it is worth it but I think that there is a chance that it will work for them because of their unique situation. But that is just my opinion and I could be totally wrong. 💕

          3. Mercy says:

            Mommypino, having the discussion is important but I give HG a pass when it comes to concerns about a womans biological clock. If this is a issue for SM then I think it is her responsibility to bring the subject up. Women have fought for the right to make decisions about their own bodies and with that right comes the responsibility to make men aware of our needs. My opinion is that it should be discussed before either side gets too involved.

          4. ava101 says:

            Exactly, Windstorm. 🙂

          5. ava101 says:

            Thank you!

            Ah, you’ve all made me just realize who had been the first persons in my life who made me feel like a doll being put away when they didn’t feel like toying around with her anymore …

            Well, I suppose we will have to let HG and that poor woman work that out themselves. :/

          6. Tappi Tikarrass says:

            Hi Mercy
            Excellent post.
            I wholeheartedly agree with you.
            It’s what I did. I walked away twice from men who didn’t meet my standards as a potential parent.
            However, I wanted children with my narc ex.

            I wrote on here in anger a while back that I’m glad we didn’t have children.
            And I still am. The thought of potentially co-parenting with him now makes me sick to my stomach.

            I empathise with the people who must.
            I really dodged a bullet.

          7. Mercy says:

            TT, I remember that post! I have huge respect for you putting your needs first when it comes to having children.

          8. mommypino says:

            Hi WhoCares and K, thank you for that info. That should settle it then. And Mercy is right, if it is really important for SM to have kids she will bring it up. If she doesn’t then it must not be that important to her. Mercy has a good point, I actually just remembered that I told my husband now when we were just starting to date that it is important for me to have kids and if he doesn’t want to have kids anymore because of his age and he already has three kids I will understand but I will have to go. And he said that he doesn’t mind having more. And now we have two.
            I didn’t see the responses of everyone except for Ava and Mercy in my WordPress. I’m surprised to see the responses that I didn’t get notification for. I haven’t had time to go to the blog because I’m starting to update my LinkedIn and open accounts in job search engines.

          9. K says:

            My pleasure mommypino
            I have been missing comments, too. Some of them are going into the mail icon on my dock and not into my regular mail box. It is a real pain-in-the-ass.

          10. Mercy says:

            Mommypino, you made good points. If a man has strong feelings about having/not having children he should make them known as well. I just don’t think a woman can put blame on a man when she hasn’t voiced her needs.

            In most cases with a narcissist, (hopefully not with HG) the conversation wouldn’t matter because they will say whatever will suit their needs.

          11. mommypino says:

            Ava101, I was just thinking about what you said about confidence. I also felt and thought that I had zero confidence and was even upset at myself for being a doormat after my entanglement to the narcs in my life. As time went on as I heal I start to realize that it wasn’t true that I had zero confidence and a doormat. If we had zero confidence the narc would not have chosen us to compete with or be threatened by us. We would not have mattered to them. I think that after our entanglements with narcissists we see ourselves through false lenses that they have provided us. As time goes on we start to see who we really are again and realize that we have been targeted precisely because we have something that they don’t, the ability to believe in ourselves without the need for constructing a facade. And I have the same default in relationships as you do, the other person is the center, but that doesn’t mean that there is something wrong with us. I thought that it was because I am a doormat but it isn’t. It just means that we are truly givers and don’t hold back at it. It is closest to resembling what God would have wanted all of us to be to each other. We just need to pick the right people next time. But yeah, I think that when somebody survives being raised by a narc parent or narc parents and still has the ability to give that unconditional love that we didn’t receive, it must mean that we have superpowers. 💕

  18. WiserNow says:

    Who is the “you” you’re referring to HG? My first guess is matrinarc, but it could easily be the primary source, perhaps?

    “What you did to me”… this sounds like you are forever blaming someone else for the way you turned out. Even your future children (if you had them) would be responsible for your feelings of being persecuted.

  19. Leslie says:

    There is definitely nothing about any narc that should be perpetuated, certainly not at the expense to vulnerable beings with no barriers against the psychic and physical assaults of those who are supposed to care for them.

    Get a vasectomy.

    1. Tappi Tikarrass says:

      Too right Leslie

      Fortunately, HG has done the world a favour and already got one.

      And please refrain from the compassion and understanding towards these supposed bastions of power and influence. And what a horrible childhood they endured…. blah blah blah….

      Look at the world. Look at the state of it.
      Thank you narcissists of the world for bringing us here

      1. Tappi Tikarrass says:

        Oh dear
        I’m feeling a little sheepish about my rapid fire post above.
        It hadn’t appeared when I first posted it a few days ago and I was kinda glad as the HG directed barb IS harsh. I thought it hadn’t made it through and was happy with that!

        It has been my familial experience that the narc child wasn’t treated badly. She was (still is) adored. Whilst myself and my other sibling occasionally bore the brunt of dads fury, she didn’t. My sibling and I were often held in quiet contempt by our father but not golden girl.

        If we excelled in something, then yes, we were in the good books for a time. Golden girl used to call me to all and sundry, little miss perfect when she could see that dad was happy with me…. rather dad was happy with what I was doing and thus reaping (or should I say raping?) my traits and benefits.

        Yet, she (golden child) did spend a lot of time in her formative years with one of the stand out narcissists in my extended family- maternal aunt. This aunt was unable to have children, she was recently married when my sister was born. Mum felt sorry for her sister and as the aunt doted and adored golden child, mum let her spend a lot of time with her.

        HG, do you have any material which discusses the narcissist who WASN’T subject to childhood abuse and neglect?

        I’d like to say that I take it back. About you doing the world a favour.

        There are so many questionable parents out there right now who aren’t narcs that do a poor job of parenting. With your awareness and improving impulse control, you’d be a better parent than many normals and dare I say it- even empaths/co-deps.

        1. HG Tudor says:

          In answer to your question, it is a timely one – watch for an article that is published today – it is a new one.

          1. Tappi Tikarrass says:

            Thank you… look forward to it!

    2. AnIceKnight001 says:

      The worst mid-range narcs I know all have vasectomies, or forced their ipss to get her tubes tied. They’re not shy about not liking kids either, but they’ll accuse other people of it because projection is the name of the game.

      We have a lot of narcissists in my family. All of the males decided to get vasectomies as well, not because we don’t like kids, but because we’re sick of the abusive bullshit. The gene stops here, you orcs. Your lineage is over.

      1. ava101 says:

        “You orcs”… ;D Dark elves. 🙂

        It actually did almost happen with my family, sure enough my parents had children, but the way I see it, we received so little of normal parental support and got our energy sucked away, that there was nothing left to carry on. My family is literally dying away, my mother has 2 fucked up daughters left around her and absolutely no other family anymore, and one grandson, with whom she is reaping what they were sewing, too.

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