Why Am I Drawn To Toxic Behaviours?
383 thoughts on “Why Am I Drawn To Toxic Behaviours?”
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Lorelei: It’s normals who are boring.
No, ET creates the false belief that they are.
Denise ID:
There is no cure for what we are: Narcissists can’t stop being Narcissists; Empaths can’t stop being Empaths. That is the problem with many therapists: they don’t teach you how to identify and work with what you are. They’re too busy trying to.”correct” your thoughts and feelings to fit some abstract idea of “normal,” then patients either feel guiltier and guiltier because they can’t take on the false personality being imposed on them, or they accept the false personality and go through life crippled by Emotional Thinking. In my case, at least, Emotional Thinking meant neither the emotions nor the thoughts were really mine. I ignored both my instincts and my logic and tried to be Like Everybody Else. Not act like Everybody Else for safety: be like Everybody Else, internalizing some jackhole’s idea of normal, even though I knew perfectly well from reading historical literature that what’s considered “normal” or even “natural” can vary widely from one era to the next.
I don’t consider myself out of the woods, but I have noticed that the thoughts of Wanna-Be Playuh Narc and Galinda-style teachers have bothered me a lot less. As for the professor who almost destroyed my confidence in grad school, I suddenly realized that for days on end, I hadn’t thought of her at all. This is someone who appeared in my nightmares years after grad school was over!
Maybe it’s just a temporary respite, but I certainly welcome even that after years of carrying this burden. I can’t pinpoint which reading or recording of HG’s lifted the fog; it’s mostly cumulative, but a big step was when he said that we not only can’t change what we are, we should not. After years of being pelted with “Is there something about you that makes these things happen?” “Don’t you think it would be nicer–” “You need to show me you understand how important this is!” “You don’t act like this in Mrs. So-and-so’s class; that shows you can behave when you wantto!” “It’s not what you did: it’s your attitude!” blah blah, it’s a relief to start with practical steps: don’t communicate with the narc, limit communication if the narc is a co-parent or business associate, change your train or your pub to make contact with the narc less likely, don’t surf the Narc’s social media.
(Which I guess means I can’t track down the therapist who fucked up my childhood more than it already was to see if he’s a) dead; b) been sued; or c) published research in which he completely misrepresented the results of his methods and pretended he “helped” his patients, which may include a distorted picture of me in which he will emphasize the hyperactivity and ignore the fact that my father started smacking my mother around on the honeymoon, four years before I was born.)
“There are none. Period.”
I agree with you on that Lorelei.
This is the situation:
a) empaths: all taken, no partner will ever let such a person slip away
b) free empath: chances are almost 100% they are in the same situation as me… no thanks
I’m 15 years single, you know your stuff Mr Tudor, but I know this shit also.
The empaths are not all taken. There are plenty on here for a start who are single and plenty more out in the world.
You are being governed by ET.
WordPress! So annoying.
It must make it difficult for new people when the comments and conversations are so disjointed.
I remember when I first started commenting here and I couldn’t keep people straight (of course, I was still in a fog); I kept getting Windstorm and Twilight all mixed up, in my head, because they both had nature names, both were Contagions and both had some involvement with Greater. And, at the time, I was like: Who is this Catwoman person?
WhoCares
Haha. Just another stray in from the cold. Meow.
Haha – keep warm there Catwoman! It’s blizzarding where I am.
WhoCares
In the beginning, I kept mixing up NarcAngel with narc affair (Chihuahuamum).
K – yes! I recall doing a little of that at the beginning!
“Think Indy 500; Bernie was the CEO of Formula One and he is 5’3″.”
Haha! Thanks for that K!
That might help put it into perspective for Lorelei.
My pleasure WhoCares!
Hahahaha…he may be short but he’s worth a pretty penny.
Good examples Cat!
Lorelei – also, if the community of female Empaths here is any indication, there has to be significant variety out there among male Empaths as well.
Yes HG I imagine so.
Empaths may not be narcs but still come with a lot of baggage and attachment issues.
I’m still friends with woman.
The guy I met before her, and I cussed him out because of my experience with narcs. I was hurt that he was acting like we were in a relationship but did not want to call it such.
However, overall he was a good guy. He had ADHD and as a result of that experienced a lot of rejection through out his childhood which made him very insecure.
Keanu Reeves can get it
Witch but think of all those empaths who were married to female Ns and are now looking for love.
HG, what percentage of empaths would you say find love in each other? Would it be much higher than an empath and a normal?
Would normals be more attracted to other normals? Or attracted to normals ans empaths equally.
Hahhaha Lorelei! I totally, completely and utterly get you!
I love the way you’re so open about it all and say it how it is.
I feel the same way. I was the IPSS to a narc I think I explained that before. I was and am married.
I’m very lucky I’m married to a man who is an empath he is far from boring. I’ve not put him under empath detector but I have put myself under it.
From my own view I’d assess him as magnet 100% everybody who meets him adores him! I suspect he is SE with some strong carrier traits.
He is definitely not boring. I can be very overpowering with a weak man and I’d find that incredibly dull. It’s okay as an NISS helps me get what I want and I do like getting my own way but like you I’d be bored shitless if I got my own way all the time in a relationship.
My husband gives as good as he gets with me. He won’t take too much crap nor me from him. It can be fiery and exciting between us. Yet we also work together in partnership (eventually hahha). We are not the opposition to each other like a Narc always would be.
Just letting you know there is hope. You don’t have to date Mr boring or Mr toxic.
There is still Mr exciting who isn’t a complete asshole.
I imagine hard to find. But they are out there. I just got very lucky.
We need to get HG to set up his dating agency for everyone. He’ll pick you a winner!
Alexis2016
You pretty much described my relationship with my husband as well. We can’t be the only 2, so they are out there.
HG would purposely pick a guy living in his mother’s Airstream.
Lorelei
Think Indy 500; Bernie was the CEO of Formula One and he is 5’3″.
What overtures, getting peach juice all over himself because he wont slice it first? Get a grip Lorelei,draw a mandala or something.
I need strength is all! I do think it’s hilarious that eating a peach has been so newsworthy!
Lorelei
You stated “boring” twice, so I think there’s a chance your ET is trying to trick you into thinking all empathic males are overweight and unattractive (not at all the case) and wants you to think more about Peacheater. I recommend you counter this by picturing what Peacheater would look like if he was Peachubby, morbidly obese. Make a drawing if necessary.
Peach man didn’t overly bother me last night. I found an unemployed 5’3” man instead.
So that’s where Bernie Ecclestone got to after F1.
Please help me from succumbing to the peach man’s overtures. It’s awful. It’s pathetic to not be upset over sexual harassment! I may have to say what the hell unless I’m hit over the head. Bernie is not familiar to me.
A lot of them are married and of course faithful by the time they are 30. Then you have to minus the ones who are empaths but scared of commitment. Then you have to minus the ones you do not fancy/aren’t interested in. So it’s a lot slimmer than plenty the older you get
Empaths are not scared of commitment.
There are 7 billion people on the planet. Thinking you cannot meet someone when you are an empath, is a manifestation of ET.
HG I’ve dated 2 people who were not narcissists and both were scared of commitment. One was a woman and one was a man, both were empathetic people.
I’m not saying that means we should settle for a narc, but it’s rough out there
If they were definitely not narcissists, they most likely had been victims of narcissists, hence the ET driven response.
MB I was thinking the exact same thing! Hilarious!!
Violetta I’m thinking that while HG offers no cure in all actuality he gives us one – if we choose to accept it. Do you agree?
Off topic – HG has blonde hair?? I was shocked when I heard that – NO! I’m thinking more 007 with his black hair slicked back and beautiful suits on…😁
HUGS!!
Thank you WhoCares!
It is mind-blowing and, once we stop projecting our world view, it all makes perfect sense and we have HG to thank for that. Narcsite is THE Holy Grail/Rosetta Stone of understanding the narcissistic personality disordered.
Empaths, apaths, narcissists, CoDs and psychopaths are all blameless and anyone can achieve freedom completely free of charge here, which is not the case with therapists. The average cost is $200.00 (153.66 GBP) for a fifty minute session in the Northeast. Unaffordable and most likely ineffective.
K:
Apath?
WokeAF
An apath is a normal or normie.
WokeAF
Neurotypical is also used to describe normals/apaths.
HF seriously? HG doesn’t scare people – narcs however do and YES some are pure evil. Maybe if you consider first that some people have never had an experience with a narc – got into a relationship with one then the narc destroyed them then yes it does leave that person lost, broken and not understanding – that said person will go look for answers and hopefully land here – the healing journey!
Lastly due to HG’s work just 2 weeks ago I was able to give the narc I knew forgiveness – does the narc know – no he doesn’t because I gave it for myself but gave it nonetheless. That’s a HUGE feat!
I hope one day you’re able to view HG in a positive light and accept his gift of healing yourself. The good Lord knew what He was doing when he guided me here. Have faith!
Good to read DID.
Violetta this is going to sound strange I’m sure but in a sense HG did cure me or saved me – whichever works. I came here utterly lost and devastated nine months ago and today I’m doing well and HG gave me that gift. Strangely I’ve no idea who he is yet my heart believes in him – such a thing is precious to me.
I continue to listen to his videos and come here obviously but I feel I’m healthy enough to guide people here for their gift and yes I do sing his praises.
HG never has stated he could cure a narc – I just wish he would take credit for giving a lot of people their lives back; however, until he does I’ll continue to tell his story. 😁
Off subject – he’s got blonde hair?? I pictured him more like 007 (hair slicked back).
Sorry so long! HUGS!!!!
Thank you DID.
HG–just in case I wasn’t clear… I am not ever going to date a boring fat ugly uneducated dumb boring empath man just because it is healthy.
Nobody suggests that you do.
There are plenty of educated, slim, interesting, sparkling empathic men available.
There are none. Period.
Lorelei
There’s always this option.
https://www.thesun.co.uk/living/2605288/westworld-humans-robots-coming-rise-sex-machine/
Nice K!
Lorelei
Hahahaha…I just couldn’t resist teasing you!!!
It’s ok. I have no lack of nefarious behavior—it’s the thought of fewer behaviors moving forth that creates anxiety. I think what HG is attempting to convey is that fewer such behaviors keep ET down more significantly. (Unless my comprehension is ajar)
Lorelei
Try allotting a certain amount of time each day for your anxiety/ET. When the time is up, let it go. Keep doing that until you get it under control. I used to set aside 15 minutes for my ET and, once the timer went off, that was it for the day. All done. Move forward. It takes time but you will get there.
Interesting thought K. HG told me once in consult (and I place this here because he can choose to allow it through or not) that boundaries are internal (in so many words) meaning that we set them for ourselves. It was related to the hopelessness of thinking we truly set them with narcissists. They don’t recognize them. Frankly, this concept you mention is aligned with setting a boundary with addictive compulsions. The ET is a form of the addiction. So, what I take away from what you’ve said it that using such a strategy is sort of but not quite like “setting a boundary with a narcissist” —because the ET is within the swirl of the narcissistic addiction/compulsion. Letting it dwindle by placing a limit on myself by less engagement. Until the propensity dissipates. Clear as mud? I did have a “break through” in realizing that my recent emotional upheaval was a form of the addiction creating a platform to flourish. Staying furious is/has been an avenue the addiction has pursued to continue exercising control though increasing ET.
Lorelei
Clear as mud! It’s a breakthrough. We have to deal with our emotions; we cannot bury them (denial). Recognize your feelings and accept them; the good, the bad and the ugly. It’s ok to be furious, anger is a healthy emotion when it is channeled correctly. It’s ok to hate, too. Emotions exist for protection and communication.
Set aside time/boundary each day to be pissed, sad, anxious, etc., when the time is up, you stop and do something else: laundry, make a cup of tea, read a magazine or pay bills. Keep doing that until you exorcise the emotion. Strive for indifference. Read this article; I think it will help you. I suspect your traits of pride and justice have been hijacked.
https://narcsite.com/2019/05/01/poll-which-traits-has-your-emotional-thinking-hijacked-and-used-against-you/
Excellent poll K—I see it has a lot of comments which I’ll read. Precisely what is happening. Basically the guilt is indeed co-existing with the addiction to engage in some sort of thinking. The addiction knows I’m repulsed by him and has to find a way to keep thriving despite.. It is also taking all prior emotion from my father and any other narcissist and putting it onto him to amplify my anger. It’s not my ex’s fault that I came to the table with a full suitcase. He can’t own all of it. He didn’t break my legs—the poll also lists the emotions that were used to keep me stuck. Oh my goodness—the kids can’t be in a single parent home! I have to make it work even if I lay here and die! Completely irrational. My heightened stress response and anxiety are real but not as paralyzing as they need to be—focusing on this is also a matter of re-engaging. I’m reframing it as not so anxious but over-cautious. Not so anxious but wary and informed. Some other factors are contributing but I’m trying. Thank you.
K—you came to mind this morning and I want to thank you. Yesterday, I had to travel to West Virginia to (again) attempt to get my mother’s two cats to bring to my home. Due to recent permanent long-term care placement the arduous & emotional task of dismantling her life is in full swing. We are dealing with quite an upheaval of emotions and trying to figure out what to do day by day. The cats of course can’t just not have a home and I was able to get them yesterday. (They fought the first day I tried because the crate scared them but it’s all ok now)
This morning I heard one hiss at my cat and then it started—how terrible we are for this, that and the other.. Feeling bad for the cat being upset.. Feeling bad and feeling bad and then feeling more bad because guilt and feeling bad and more guilt is what I do. Your 15 minute suggestion popped in my head. Thank you! It was logical to place her in a care home because she can’t stay in her home. Period. We have tried and even tried in-home help. Cats don’t have emotions like we do. The cat will be fine in a week. I needed my brain to shut up.
Lorelei
Very good. It’s ok to feel the guilt. Set a time limit, then let it go and rely on logic to help you make decisions that are realistic and healthy for you and your family. There’s only so much that you can do, so let go of the guilt.
Normals likely don’t worry about the emotional health of a cat. Good gawd. I need a fucking psychiatric admission.
Lorelei
just give the cat some Catnip (cat weed/bud) and the cat will be fine!
K—maybe I should call Austin in IT to help
me with my pictures!
Lorelei
Hahaha…oh, I think Austin would be more than happy to help you with pictures. Wink, wink.
He will be like, “It’s the dick pic gurl!!”
Lorelei
Hahahaha….exactly what I was thinking. He’s no fool.
I’d get one when they walk and talk and do dishes.
I’m not even joking
WokeAF
And clean the bathroom.
And mop and vacuum
MB
Hahaha…damn skippy!
I make my children do dishes!
K, your directions have been beneficial on searching narcsite. The key was the sequence of the search–I had missed this in prior discussion with you. Long story–but it is fixed and I am now enlightened. I am replying under your suggestion of acquiring a human robot. I have yet to do this. To be honest, I have always dated human robots so what would the difference be? Upon more reflection I think you have offered a valuable idea.
Lorelei
Excellent to read. Practice makes perfect; you can be your own Narchivist and if you need help finding a comment, just let me know, sometimes, it’s fiddly.
Of course it’s a valuable idea. The biggest difference: the Bot won’t devalue you or expect you to do his laundry.
K, Your ability (and willingness) to find the right thing at the right time has helped all of us here for a very long time. Thank you for your invaluable contributions, in search and otherwise.
Thank you FYC!
It’s my pleasure. We are all truth seekers here and thank you for all of your informative and well researched contributions, as well. We all work together here, which helps make narcsite a very valuable resource for everyone who visits.
Indeed, K. I am happy to learn and contribute where I feel I can. I am grateful for all of this.
FYC
You and me both. All of the answers are here.
I love to do laundry though K!
Lorelei
You Domestic Diva!
Just wait K. I have new recipes for beverages. I’m getting some coconut vodka tomorrow and sparkling waters. I may garnish with fresh fruits in pretty glasses. Also, fresh mint is fabulous.
Lorelei
Look at you getting your Martha Stewart Mojo going. Speaking of mint, Mojitos are yummy.
I had to go to the store and got a ton of sparkling water flavors for vodka as well.
K:
“you can be your own Narchivist”
There can only be one.
Violetta
Hahahahaha…thank you! Lorelei can be an apprentice.
Mojitos are a waste of mint. Any spare mint goes in juleps. Properly sweet ones, like in the South. You shouldn’t know what hit you until you stand up
I really really like a Mojito. In fact, I’d go to Cuba and have one if I could but I tried to leave the country last month and was prohibited. I was supposed to be in Italy and Norway and would have drank any regional beverages with ease. Unfortunately, we are stuck in our respective shit holes! I think they have even closed our parks down so what choice do I have but to drink? I don’t believe I am going to contract COVID from hiking. More likely from my work. I was inundated in it last night in fact, but goodness forbid I walk in the woods. Even the woods are closed! I am getting a bit irritable.
Violetta
I have never had a julep; I will put it on my To Do List!
Lorelei
Why is that your description of empath men? You’re an empath. Would you describe yourself like that? Not all narcissists are slim, handsome, or exciting either. It’s likely that if we saw the object of desire that brought each of us here we would screw up our faces in disgust and mumble huh? to ourselves. THAT’S what brought them to their knees?
Because everyone is gross in comparison to who I am smitten with. I’m whining.
Maybe the one you’re smitten with looks good, but if it’s a narcissist, you know there’s nothing there. Empty inside. That is what is truly gross. Your ET is off the charts. Please exercise caution. This is your brain on drugs! Narc heroin.
Believe me—I know I know. It would help if I were not drawn to the behavior. He’s the most attractive piece of shit I’ve ever tried not to shag. Thank the universe he isn’t there tonight. I looked because we are always paired and it’s torture. Absolutely torturous.
Lorelei, maybe an evening without being in Arena one will allow your ET to come down some. You were/are at a tipping point and losing insight. You do sound more logical tonight than last night. Let it take hold!
I’m not losing insight—I’m exercising what I’ve learned. It’s like a cocaine addict being given a tray of only lightly cut product. It’s irresistible. I adore you—but the whole
picture is that there is a fallacy associated with thinking an ingrained addiction will not have hills and valleys. This is not entirely uphill—it isn’t for anyone with an addiction.
I understand Lorelei. It’s not always a straight trajectory and there are certainly temptations and backslides along the way. If some Narcs weren’t so damn yummy…
Thanks for understanding. This one is particularly difficult—particularly. Any passing narcissist of this physical caliber is just that—passing. I’m constantly inundated with this one and it’s really difficult to stay logical. He’s breathtaking and tall and has fabulous arms. He’s also charming, smart, chiseled face. And a total idiot douche bag. I think,”It’s perfect because it’s so casual..” I’d be a disaster in about four weeks.
Lorelei, “a disaster in about four weeks.” That’s logic, girl!
Maybe week one. Because I’d be screwed in more ways than one!
A show and tell would be interesting here. .
A show and tell.. I’m trying to behave!
@Lorelei, lol.
Anm—I can only do likes some of the time! But I like this!
@NA
You’re right, a lot of narcs are average or well below average in looks and people fall for their initial charm, not what they look like. A lot of narcs I would say are also boring due to their black and white thinking and their prime aims. At first they don’t appear to be boring but over time they are.
Witch
Correct and many of them can’t hold a decent conversation. Sometimes, it’s a struggle to get some modicum of intelligence from them.
@K
It’s tedious! Honestly!
When I was being devalued the second narc decided to pick a fight over me liking skull jewellery and was talking about how skulls were used in nazi symbolism or something like that.
And basically making it out like I was a bigot for wanting a bracelet with a skull on it.
Another time I asked him if he wanted to go out for Halloween and he was talking shit about how Halloween is pointless cause there’s nothing meaningful about it.
…K I just wanted to go to a party and get drunk it’s not that deep.
And that’s what I mean, at first narcs appear to be fun and spontaneous until they are not, and start criticising everything that you do.
Witch
Exactly! It’s all fun and games (benign control) until the gas lighting begins (malign control). He picks a fight by insinuating that if you like skull jewelry then you must harbor Nazi leanings (ridiculous) and the rigamarole about Halloween was a just another manipulation to provoke you into providing an emotional response.
In our world, it is simple: Do you want to go out or not? In his world it was all about the control and fuel.
If you haven’t already read this article below, you may find it very enlightening.
Sugar Skulls are really cool BTW.
https://narcsite.com/2016/10/12/5-reasons-we-argue-and-what-you-can-do/
@K
I skimmed the article and yep! That is my mother she likes to provoke, establish superiority, control.
I remember I tried to get into a rock gig when I was 16 years old.
Now you had to be 18 but I managed to get into several before at 15 years old because back then there wasn’t as much security or ID checks, especially in small venues as there are now.
Well it so happens that I wasn’t able to get into this particular one without ID and so I told mum on the way home that I wasn’t able to get in, and she flipped her lid, saying how I wasted money trying to get up there blah blah blah.
(It was my money, not hers btw and it was only a train pass, nothing significant)
For most of my life I thought this was normal behaviour from parents. My best friend also has a narc mother. So I just thought parents were jarring and that’s it really. Well it just so happens that a lot of people have narc parents and so parents abusing their children is normalised.
Witch
Gone are the days of underaged clubbing and drinking. What a shame!
Typical malign parental hoover: berating you for wasting money, belittling your decision to go there and triangulation. All malign manipulations used to provoke you into proving an emotional response (fuel). The message is very clear: you are a wastrel and she knows what’s best (assertion of superiority).
Sadly, this type of behavior is excused, glossed over and normalized by society as a whole. Plain and simple, it is child abuse.
@K
I never even consumed alcohol. I was “good” and quite innocent at the time. I just wanted to see the bands. Most of the time I used to make my dad take me and if a man tried to buy me a drink, I would tell him I’m 15 and my dad is here. I just wanted to pursue my interests, that’s it.
My mum could pretend to understand that, but would never really understand that because she’s one-dimensional.
Witch
Narcissistic mothers have absolutely zero interest in their children’s interests, unless it serves their purposes. It’s all about her and her needs (The Prime Aims). Unless they need something from you, you are shelved (ignored and neglected).
Alexis, I keep thinking about it and it makes me want to cry because I am so totally drawn to toxicity. I am a freaking endless mess of bullshit. Ugh, this was probably the most eye opening at the right time. It in no way means I am ready for what HG refers to as a wholesale change but I am absolutely floored. I also want to dispel a potential myth–that growth can’t occur within a tornado. I think there is this fantasy of a linear trajectory toward “wellness” and there are dings that seem impossible at times. I did not come here looking for a boring life. I am not dating some boring nice ugly man and watching Jeopardy every evening before the two minutes of boring sex. I am also not dating a dumb ugly boring empathic man and watching Jeopardy. I am not handing out lotion samples and wrapping some dumb ugly boring empath man’s feet before he trudges off to work to clean gutters. I’ll fucking die before that happens. Hilariously I think you will totally understand this rambling. I’m not doing any of that dumb crap just to be a “good empath.” This is getting kinda messy at times and I feel like I need to talk about the messy stuff whether or not it seems healthy.
Brad Pitt is an empath.
Keanu Reeves is an empath.
Lorelei, I’m just saying they’re not all boring.
Correct.
Cat, I’m not 100% sure if pitt is an empath. Let’s assume he is. That would also make them dirty empaths. pitt would cheat, and admits to being an alcoholic. I think keanu probably has a secret drug past because of the scene he was in in the 90s. anywho, I would prefer a dirty empath over a normal or standard Empath.
Lorelei:
If we don’t want to accept the Virgin/whore dichotomy for ourselves, we need to stop accepting the charming psychopath/decent loser for our relationships. The truth is, we can all think of psychopaths who aren’t charming at all. We see them in the news all the time.
Are all the good-looking, decent guys with some personality taken? Even if they are, some of them will have been taken by narcs, and after escaping ensnarement and learning how to avoid being Hoovered or snared by another narc, they can have relationships with other narc survivors. Another reason to make sure word of Narcsite spreads: so we can free those guys up for healthy relationships.
Guys may be willing to say the ex “was a cheatin’ bitch,” but that’s not the same as recognizing she was a narcissist. Look at all those bad relationships in country music. Hank Williams never figured out the truth about Audrey, even though she insisted on performing with the band despite limited talent, and reunited with him after the first divorce only because his career was finally taking off.
HF
I would much rather pay HG for this information then pay any useless therapist.
Thank you CM.
You’re welcome HG
Every time I think each one of these packages is the best and my favourite! this is my favourte!
agh but so is that one and that one. they all are!!!
Very helpful. I’ll leave the normals to it – they’re fine without my support.
Pleased to read that you found it useful.
Twilight, I agree.
I spend years in therapy and with medication and still not enlightened.
Years of my time / life waisted.
Iam reading HG his work for 6 months now, and iam so much better now.
I want to pay for his extra work, as time is preciouse, time is money. And HG gives us here a lot for free.
Wich i really appreciate.
Thank you.
HF
People here are no longer naive BECAUSE of the truth that is offered. Your assessment (although it shows caution) is, but you can remedy that by taking more time to read and interact to form a more accurate one. Choice is yours.
Well stated.
K,
I “like” this comment as well.
It’s excellent. HG’s work literally allows me to step out of my shoes, for a bit, step into *their* shoes, reach an understanding, and take that information back to my perspective and it’s mind-blowing.
As for your comment on the Victim’s Cloak – yes: it absolutely IS their truth. And we (sometimes) think: what a confusing world that must be (no longer, with HG’s work) but it makes utter sense to them.
“Regardless of personality, no one is responsible for their GPD or upbringing/childhood. Children don’t ask to be disordered,”
I wish I could like those words 100x.
And you’re right; HG’s provides plenty of free materials right here to get oneself free from entanglement if you use them correctly.
HF it’s the Holy Grail of information. If you are unable to see that go to the beginning of the site and work your way through the numerous free articles. Yes, everyone wants something for free, of course we do. But trust me, it is more than worth every penny and why should someone give so much for free? I’m not scared. I just want to learn. Jees I mean to go to College/Uni how much do we pay for that? Yet I have learned more here and largely for free and what I have paid is nothing at all by comparison to Uni fees, and yet I have learned more here than I ever could have at Uni
Thank you AS2016.
Alexis—good point! I didn’t pay for my undergrad but I’ve paid tens of thousands post undergrad and still learn more useful stuff here!
Glad I listened to this. Helped iron out a ton in my mind. It seems to have clarified why I didn’t react differently to prior devaluing behaviors in a more pro-active manner. (Saying to hell with this basically)
It also explained perfectly why exerting boundaries with a male friend works generally and why I’m drawn to him despite him being very empathic—he engages in some toxic behavior. It’s the toxic stuff he talks about that spikes my interest and not his more frequently “appropriate behavior.” He also recognizes boundaries just as you describe. Mostly I am floored I actually gravitate to behavior that is unpleasant—I didn’t even realize I was still so baffled by it. I really can’t believe I have this to manage and I wish you were just full of shit but you are not. It explains my disastrous life to perfection. Thank you for suggesting this. It also places some fringe on why I can’t seem to shake fundamentally unpleasant people entirely. I must be a really bad case. Ugh. I can’t even promise myself I won’t say “F it” and do some things that are ridiculously counter productive to improving upon emotional thinking. I really have a problem.
Good to read.
You know how to read?!
Lorelei & HG, I cant wrap my mind around being drawn to unpleasant behavior. I understand allowing it after a person has been wonderful to you and you thinking the pleasant behavior will return. But being inherently drawn to people that treat you badly, I just don’t see it in my own life. I’ve also been known to “fight back” against toxic behaviors toward me on numerous occasions. I was shocked at my own aggressive behavior. (Who was that girl?!?) In hindsight, every. single. time. it was a narcissist I railed against.
MB—I have never heard it explained until this but it is what I’ve done. Repeatedly. I don’t understand it aside from perhaps an instinctive draw to these people. A state of devaluation isn’t really uncomfortable after growing up in it. It’s not pleasant but if you are raped each day you get accustomed to it. I swear it’s akin to Stockholm Syndrome. I think where I am is in almost a state of awe at times. I can’t believe how I grew up, what I’ve tolerated, all of it. I think I’m much more complicated & emotional than I ever realized.
It has little to do with occasionally fighting back. I have gotten very ballsy many times with people, including narcissists. And they like it—it’s negative fuel.
There are so many packages I would like to purchase but cannot afford right now.
They are too expensive!
On the contrary, you cannot not afford to obtain them.
You may think they are expensive if they are being accessed mostly for curiosity, but even then, you pay for anything of interest or entertainment. You can eat and drink cheaper at home but we don’t complain about paying at a bar or restaurant. If your mental health is a priority, you will find that the cost is small compared to their effectiveness. Especially when pit against the alternatives. The other thing we seldom discuss is the convenience. We can use them in our own homes and on our own time with anonymity, dispensing with the need for time off work, driving to appointments, and the possibility of being seen using other services. I understand that some people have trouble financially and it becomes a choice over something else. I feel for those in that situation. They must choose very carefully what would assist them best and make it a goal to obtain it, so it may take a little longer, but they will get there. Concentration on reading and applying the many free articles here to our situation and interacting with other commenters can help to fill that gap in the interim.
Excellent points NA.
I’m just referring what Italian people are saying about HG’s products. What you are saying is very interesting. I may translate it in Italian and use it to reply to them if I decide to publish also the new packages on my blog
Agree 100% NA. Just to have my hair styled is $35. (Not colored but straightening or whatever)
It is good for 2-3 days. The material is good for a lifetime.
Indeed, Lorelei.
It’s true HG. And that is without the tip! I have gotten four days out of a straightening though. Just last week in fact.
I’ve read a lot of them, for sure. Seemed like fewer the last week or so. I’m just glad they’ll still be coming.
Indeed.
HF
HG has humanized both narcissists and psychopaths which has enabled me to understand and empathize with those who are personality disordered. I cannot pinpoint the moment I was “cured” (free), however, it was quite a while ago and it was gratis.
Thank you K
You are welcome HG.
K—I like this comment.
Thank you Lorelei
Regardless of personality, no one is responsible for their GPD or upbringing/childhood. Children don’t ask to be disordered, that is done to them and they didn’t deserve it. It’s no wonder they wear The Victim’s Cloak because they truly are victims.
This sounds really good
You are correct
Bought!
HG have you watched the documentary The Staircase?
He’s a narc, obv must be a psychopath (murderx2)
But I don’t think he knows what he is. I’m guessing UMR elite?
No, but I have heard of it and several people have reached the same conclusion that the individual is a narcissist.
Most welcome. People can get a ton better just from the free material so the occasional complainer is really just not looking at the whole picture. (Or wants to be an ass)
In this case it’s wanting to be an ass based upon the lack of elegance displayed in the inquiry.
Stella:
I’ve been recommending that people look not only at AVRN, but also “Dropping the Narc Bomb.” The fact that MM has pulled many of her stunts on events such as Eugenie’s wedding, Trooping the Colors (which is HM’s birthday celebration, though not the actual birthday), Christmas, Kate’s birthday will not escape the notice of British and Commonwealth citizens.
If they can make the connection in their own lives to:
a) the time Mrs. So-and-so chased her son around the room with a knife because he announced he was entering the priesthood, or
b) the violent, drunken fit little sister threw after her father’s funeral,
….so much the better.
(And yes, those are actual cases from people I know.)
H G, I’m impressed with how you handle criticism. Among your many talents.
Happy to report that when your site came to my attention, the missing pieces and gaps in my knowledge appeared. What was once a somewhat confusing mishmash of information became crystal clear. Relieved to have your perspective.
Thank you and I am pleased to read you have found enlightenment and insight here.
Violetta, no intention from me to criticize HG. I translated all his blog fot Italian people, and I’m going to translate even all the articles about the Sussexs within a few days
Narc Angel what you’re saying is correct, but I was just observing that if I were HG I would have managed these articles in a different way. An article about Harry and Megan, an assistance package, and other articles, either recycled or new. In my opinion it would be better assorted rather than “making a feast” only about the Sussexs. Moreover, this topic is quite dangerous because when you talk about a celebrity saying they are manipolative etc, they could feel authorized to undertake actions so to close all the social medias where articles about them appear. However it’s HG’s work and only he is entitled to decide about it. I commented before only because the fact that another person foreing to me had written the same words I had used some days before in another comment about the same issue, considering that I’m italian and I don t usually speak English I found it surprisingly strange and funny, then the speech has taken another turn. (Please HG replace my previous comment as it’s been published before I completed it)
You’re welcome, HG.
Why are my replies still not stacking under the right thread? I go to “spleen” at the bottom if I want to post an independent comment, and click reply under the thread if it’s a response. This has worked pretty well in the past (though I might get confused on a long thread), but it’s been posting randomly for days now.
Hi Sweet Pea, I’m sure you look lovely in that new suit!
I had not read about Pantone choosing between the classic blue or a pink shade. That is incredibly uninspired given that in 2016, they actually chose the traditional baby shades rose quartz and serenity.
This “classic” blue isn’t even what I would describe as such, it has strange under- and overtones which makes it quite difficult to implement. But at least Poland’s Ikea seems to like it:
My personal favourite was the colour of 2015, Marsala, and it’s been a little downhill from there.
HF: There is no cure. HG has never pretended to sell a cure.
There is only avoiding ensnarement when possible, and minimizing interactions with co-parents or people in the workplace who are known to be narcs if you can’t avoid them entirely..
Thank you, Violetta.
I can’t see it in my phone, will look in a computer instead, thank you!
Email me if you can’t find it and I’ll send you the link
Is it our primitive brain? I guess I will find out 🙂
Indeed you will find out
Hg ? If empaths are addicted to Toxic behavior …why ? Are you saying all empaths have been around a Narc or all imparts have a Narc in their life at some point ?
See the Addiction – Foundation Package. It’s explained there, that’s why I’ve created the APs.
Hg —I bought it . I listened . I see why Iam drawn to and perhaps focus on / and replay in my mind someone’s mean comment . But , I didn’t have narc friends solely growing up . I also had a first husband for 8 yrs who was not a narc but ….bisexual. I left . I didn’t have children with him , it was an easy and cheap split. I dated and left many with no sadness , just gladness all just learning .
I only decided to marry the narc when I witnessed loving behavior loyal behavior towards me in the hospital . So … it was his loving behavior that attracted me. But , I do understand that focusing on their “bad” behavior can be confusing and overwhelming and “habit forming” . I do exactly opposite with my children . I read a book on parenting called “love and logic” (Its a whole system). I listened and practiced “love and logic”I practiced this type of parenting with my son. It was awesome to me and he really responded to it. We rarely had any struggles in discipline …lots of respect instead.
This form of parenting was exactly NOT focusing on bad crap and making fairly light of the so called “bad behaviors” …..and not getting emotional and taking things personally…and always encouraging good wanted behavior .
I should use it on the narc ? Lol.
Hg …the parent or dominate person / child relationship is one of the main parts of Narcism ? Is it not ?
Not necessarily, it is the existence of a genetic predisposition towards narcissism (which may come from a grandparent rather than a parent) and also a Lack of Control Environment (which does not always need a dominant person for this to occur).
That’s smart man…really smart ! everybody is selling. we had selling gurus, selling spiritual teachers and now selling narcissistic psychopath… world is crazy… people are hopeless, suffering and desperate and can not think straight…so you SCARE them out of their wits by dehumanizing an illness then sell them the cure that you clam having it. narcs may do horrible things but they are not evil they are just helpless and incapable of love and this NOT bad…evil are those who consciously manipulate the truth in order to take advantage of naive people.
Nobody is scared here. They are enlightened.
HF, I have never felt taken advantage of by HG. My life is exponentially better and I don’t work one minute for free at my job. Do you? I have been uncomfortable in church settings where they beg for 10% tithes. And they never improved my life but just gave rules I didn’t agree with re, how not to get to hell.
Thank you, Lorelei.
HF
HG is an intelligent man, scare tactics are for a different arena and not here unless one fears the truth of accepting the narcissistic perspective.
I have said it before here One pays for the knowledge of any specialist they go to be it medical, financial or mental.
Dehumanizing an illness, the connection is lost within them be it due to genetics or just environmental that specific area of the brain never developed the same way as those with empathy.
Why fear truth? Unless one desires to keep another in the dark comforted by a lie.
I know many Doctors who manipulate their patients into expensive drugs due to the kick back they get. Double whammy you pay to see said specialist and they get paid to keep you sick.
HG kick back is fuel via the gratitude of those he has provided the information. He isn’t keeping anyone “sick” for his benefit here.
Evil would be if HG withheld this information from others.
Wise words, Lisk.
I need this badly 🙁
You know what to do
No. Need help buying it ? I’m trying . I press add to cart and my paypal account come up ….and do I just add my email in the grey box ?
Yes or your PayPal email you signed up will be shown with the purchase and I’ll use it
Ok. It will tell me to add your email to send money abroad ? Can I add your email ?
Yes narcissist1909@gmail.com
HG, what happened with the package you advertised yesterday for a couple of minutes and then was gone? The one about stopping thinking about the narc. Because my narc just suddenly returned while I thought he would be away for the whole year and I am losing my mind lately thinking I’m gonna bump into him. And also my husband’s birthday was recently and his wife (narc’s wife, not my husband’s which would be me haha) posted a happy birthday wish and I almost fainted thinking they are gonna invite us to a social gathering or whatever. God, how did I get into this mess???
It’s there. It’s in the menu bar on the right hand side (on desktop)
You told the same thing as me…also I miss them 🤣🤣🤣🤣
I am consistent.
I was referring to cogra002, she has written the same thing I had written about 2 days ago, namely that I miss the articles
Take a look, there are hundreds on the blog, they have not gone anywhere and I shall repeat, what do you think AVRN is?
Ok, please don’t get angry HG, I’ve been just surprised because another person has written the same words as me.
I am not angry. Just trying to understand why such a comment would be written when it is patently incorrect.
Maybe because we were used to have our dose of articles (about 6 every day) about narcissistic dynamics and not only about the Royals, although even they are interesting. After all, please forgive us but we are addicted to your work.
You are forgiven!
Thank you 😘
Stella and Cogra
I don’t presume to speak for HG and I expect to be corrected me if I am wrong.
Previous articles are cycled through while new material is being written and prepared on an ongoing basis, so there are hundreds always available. You can fill the search function with a key word of interest or title and those articles will come up. The focus recently has been on M. Markle in the A Very Royal Narcissist series because it is an excellent high profile example of the narcissist/empath dynamic operating in real time, but these articles are still discussing the issues that appear in the regular articles and apply to all of us, so do not be mistaken that because they involve someone who does not interest you (celebrities, Royals, etc) that you would not benefit from reading them. Great discussions as well. It has caused much interest and traffic from other platforms and therefore time to moderate, but there is never a shortage of material to review.
HG approves
What you’re saying is correct, but I was just observing that if I were HG I would have managed these articles in a different way. An article about Harry and Megan, an assistance package, and other articles, either recycled or new. In my opinion it would be better assorted rather than “making a feast” only about the Sussexs. Moreover, this topic is quite dangerous because when you talk about a celebrity saying they are manipolative etc, they could feel authorized to undertake actions so to close all the social medias where articles about them appear. However it’s HG’s work and only he is entitled to decide about it. I commented before only because the fact that another person foreing to me had written the same words I had used some days before in another comment about the same issue, considering that I’m italian and I don t usualky speaker English I found it surprisingly strange.
Several thousand didn’t share the same view. Indeed the focus on the Sussexes hugely increased traffic, interest in existing articles and brought many new people to read and to comment. The showcasing of that alongside APs remains successful.
Only you know what is better…
Indeed. Thank you.
You are welcome!
I got the same impression as well, cogra and Stella.
My guess is the model is changing. I don’t blame him, especially when there’s a surge in readership due to series such as AVRN.
HG, and any consummate capitalist, would be a fool to not seize such an opportunity. (It’s a lesson I’m learning in my own life.)
HG seizes the opportunity. We seize the power. That’s a win-win in my book!
True, I am seizing the opportunity but you all will not be denied the opportunity to seize the power.
No Shit!!!!!! WOW……who would have thought. Excellent information!!! A must buy.
I shit thee nay! Yes it is, I am pleased you have found it so useful.
“I shit thee nay!” I’ll be using this one. Where has this been all my life?
Its a corker.
Interesting, HG. Who knew? Oh, of course…you did!
Thanks MB. Indeed I did and a particularly useful one to help you steer clear of such behaviours.
Narc by proxy was a shocker for me
Indeed, very important aspect of narcissism detailed in respect of that.
MB…wasn’t going to buy it until I read this reply…….cha ching!!!
I’m happy to promote HGs work. There is a lot in here about normals and the narc by proxy is all new material.
Thank you MB.
MB. don’t have to promote HG’s work to me. I am claiming him as a dependent this year 😂😂😂😂
Good idea! I’ll look for that line on my 1040 too! 🤣
Me too Kim. HG—can I have your tax ID? Height and weight? Date of birth and mother’s maiden name for my taxes..
Good news — I filed my taxes today! Bad news — 1. There is no line to claim HG expenses as a deduction. 2. I owe a shit ton of money after I’ve already paid a double shit ton in taxes. I have until April 15th to pay, but the debt is going to seriously curb my HG spending and I’m very unhappy about this!
I’ve paid in the past so I know how it sucks. I was able to keep from paying this time but it was strategic.
MB. Just file for an extension. That should help😂
Narc by proxy? You’ve sold me on this one, MB. As soon as my next paycheck gets deposited . . .
Proxy Narcissism, Lisk, that is different to Narc By Proxy.
What is Proxy Narcissism?
I’m not sure the difference between—would the explanation be in the material?
Or are you trying to tell me something?! . . .
Proxy Narcissism is explained in the material.
Lisk, The proxy narcissism is all new material. Prof Tudor hasn’t taught it before. It was the first day of class on the subject and I called it the wrong name. I apologize for my inaccuracy. As much as I hate it 😉 I’m going to have to listen again, and again, and again!
It looks like I’ll be listening to Toxic Behaviors sooner than I thought. A Very Generous KTN Reader just purchased this for me!
THANK YOU!!! Your generosity and kindness are lovely surprises and have got my day and my weekend off to a great start! And I am sure I’m now set to get a handle on toxic behavior attraction even sooner. I greatly appreciate your life-changing gesture.
Sincerely,
lisk
Mr Tudor
“Proxy Narcissism is explained in the material.”
This Proxy Narcissism makes it even more difficult in our judgement if somebody is a N or not.
Questions, questions, questions…when will we ever understand this? My head feels like the smiley with the exploding brain
ZB, do go back to the material and listen again as I do explain the distinction so you can use judgement effectively.
Are you not going to be posting articles any more? Just assistance packages?! I hope there will still be articles for this blog. I miss them.
Miss them? There are hundreds of them. What do you think the recent AVRN series is? Yes there will be articles also.
As a paragon of impermeable virtue I’ve never engaged in a toxic behavior.
But you are drawn to them, so put down the halo and get weaponised!
Not me. It’s the others here that do bad things!
After all—I even wear pink shoes with bows!
Lorelei
Re: pink shoes with bows
I think they’re more blush than pink, Pantone Angel Wing, very popular for wedding themes.
They make me joyful. With ankle length jeans.
Desirée, I bought a new suit recently and it’s blue. It’s not the same Pantone blue color but it’s close, I thought about you the other day because I read about the color selection on the plane magazine. Apparently it was in between that blue and pink, it sounded like choosing baby clothes! (in a traditional gender normative fashion).
And I’ve already heard a story about lotion in the shower but I’m absolutely thrilled to death it was followed by a woe is me tale because he kills me. HG–I am a weak woman. Please send the narc squad to get me through this.
No squad, just the champion.
The pity plays aren’t cute thankfully. It’s constant now that I know what they are.
I wish all narcissists were dirty and gross. Let me see, pulling a chair up repeatedly in my room. Put his hand over mine as my hand rested on the computer mouse as if to help me navigate something, messaging me via the secure chat system at work, constantly finding dumb reasons to engage.. It took every ounce of my being because he isn’t gross… I read the book on hoovering you wrote and kept thinking of the behavior. I had to keep thinking and thinking and thinking. I had to think that his wife won’t let him have social media, he’s always whining, he’s been fired from another job and everyone knows, he gets pissed off and it’s always a shit show.. ugh.
Things I figured out way after I should have #3.14159:
Me to therapist when I was 9: “Ash and Basil beat me up after school.”
Therapist: “They like you.”
Me: “No, they beat me up. Everybody knows I’m the hyper kid and I have to take pills.”
Therapist: “Boys always tease girls when they like them.”
Me: “This wasn’t teasing. They didn’t pull my pigtails and say I had cooties, like they do to Fern and Heather. They gave me a black eye and a fat lip.”
Therapist (smugly): “They really like you.”
I knew he was full of it even then (and I stopped telling him about getting jumped after school, because he was clearly getting off on it). When the boys I knew from elementary school stopped hitting me and started hitting on me in high school, they got nowhere. (Certain boys from other school systems did better.)
I never got into the whole 50 Shades Routine. Physical violence isn’t erotic to me. I like mosh pits, but that’s because I get to hit back, without any prissy education major telling me I need to learn to get alawng with people.
OTOH, how much did I internalize the idea that arguing was foreplay?
OK, we all know that Romeo and Juliet, Lancelot and Guinevere, Paris and Helen, blah blah are all artificial constructs. I wasn’t impressed by the mushy stuff, but I wanted My Cousin Vinny, Beatrice and Benedick, all those screwball comedies with Katherine Hepburn and Spencer Tracy, Jimmy Stewart and Jean Arthur, Nick and Nora Charles…what Humbert Humbert called “a perfect love-song of wisecracks.”
These were also artificial constructs. The fact that they were less sappy than the usual teddy bears-n-Hallmark cards routine didn’t make them any more authentic. When Wanna-Be Playuh Narc traded snotty remarks with me, I thought he had to be sincere—guys only fake the mushy stuff, right? Nobody wastes that amount of time and energy wisecracking with someone they don’t intend to bang, right?
Well, nobody who wasn’t narcissistic would.
So the fight cute routine not only wasn’t a litmus test for his sincerity, it wasn’t necessarily a litmus test for mine. How much of this was an innate preference for witty, verbal guys, and how much of it was Emotional Thinking made up of a mashup of Hollywood and the boys-will-be-boys mentality of my therapist and teachers? The key to Emotional Thinking is it not only ignores logic, it ignores my actual emotions, because I was to taught for years to ignore them myself. I felt what I was expected to feel.
Now I’m not sure what an unbrainwashed emotion feels like.
Violetta 😭. I get it!! So sad. I feel your description.
Em:
I’ve learned what love isn’t. Still not sure what the real thing looks like. I knew the fizzy, demented joy wasn’t meant to last, but I didn’t think it was a bad thing to start with, as long as it grew into something else.
I will say, I too does not really know what love is. I’ve been taught to confuse love with jealousy, abuse, control. It’s really all I know. It’s my comfort zone.
Violetta
Give me the name and address of the therapist and I will have The Jackal take him out.
K:
He might be dead by now, for all I know. He was a Freudian, and they were already a dying breed. Anyhow, I told him off when I was a teenager, do I don’t even feel the need to become a nurse so I can torture him in the retirement home if he’s still alive, or borrow someone’s dog just so I can walk it on his grave if he isn’t.
I appreciate your offer, however.
My pleasure Violetta
He sounded like a real jerk.
K:
Pride goeth before a fall.
I just couldn’t resist looking up Dr. Pinhead in the university library to see if he’d published. There were some ancient editor credits from decades ago (which only lasted a year or so). Then I googled: he’s still alive, boasting over 50 years of experience with children and adolescents (during which time you have to wonder how many patients he’s fucked up–a later therapist heard me mention his name, rolled his eyes and said, “Oh, him! I’ve had his former patients before. You are not alone”).
He had published some article with the following word salad abstract: “Neurotic conflict leading to compromise and symptom formation in children can lead to academic failure. This paper focuses on how the learning process, when sexualized and impaired by aggressive symbolization and narcissistic injury, resulted in a youngster’s failure to learn how to read and on how through psychoanalytic treatment he was returned to a path of normal development.”
I seriously want to take a train to my home town, barge into his office, explain to him that “Play Therapy” means the patients express their feelings, not the therapist grabbing the toys and making them do what he wants, then kick him where his family jewels would be, if he had any, then slam his head against the corner of his desk a few times, and if he cries, bellow, “Stop that crying you little shite or I’ll crack your head open like a coconut!” and keep slamming, until he does stop. I’ll tell him to suck his thumb to stop the crying, it worked fine for me when I was three. I want to sue the fucker for reparations, along with the Weekend Hippie Early Boomer teacher who told us we should always get INVOLVED when someone is being hurt, that we shouldn’t stand by like the folks who didn’t help Kitty Genovese. Didn’t work so great when I tried to protect my mother.
It is easier to forgive my crazy parents than all these “normal,” self-righteous Galindas who “made me their little project.”
Bless me, HG, for I have sinned….
Violetta
Hahahaha…tell me how you really feel. Atta girl! Let it all out.
His published article sounds ridiculous and it comes as no surprise that Psychiatrists, Psychologists and Therapists have absolutely no idea what they are dealing with when it comes to disordered personalities. These self-righteous Galindas deserve nothing but contempt for their idiocy.
Hahahaha….you didn’t sin; you were being honest.
https://narcsite.com/2016/10/25/sins-of-the-empath-honesty/
A question thinking about tertiary in the fuel matrix—why would a narcissist solicit engagement and then promptly ignore a person after talking via text with them. And then solicit texts again, but ignore in person. And then not text/ignore in person, or text again but ignore in person when engaging with others.. This yo-yo effect if you will.. Would black/white thinking manifest toward a tertiary source?
The level of engagement sounds closer to a secondary source who is experiencing the yo-yo effect of shelving.
Black and white thinking does occur towards a tertiary source, it applies to all appliances.
I assume magical thinking may include making someone a secondary source when they view the narcissist as a mere bell-hop. Shelving—interesting.