Black or White? On The Shelf

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Life on the shelf is often difficult.

Knowing The Narcissist is the only place which explains this dynamic with accuracy.

You often find yourself isolated, unable to talk to others about the affair you are engaged with and if there are others you can speak to, they do not understand you are dealing with a narcissist.

A frequent issue is interpreting the narcissist´s behaviour towards you, when you are on the shelf to understand whether you are painted black or white. This Logic Bulletin finally gives you clarity and answers and also addresses what you can do to change your status.

In this comprehensive and hugely insightful THREE part Logic Bulletin you will be assisted with

  • What does it mean to be on the shelf and who does this apply to?
  • What causes you to be taken off the shelf?
  • What do you do which means the narcissist takes you off the shelf?
  • Why are you being kept on the shelf?
  • Ten detailed scenarios explaining the behaviour of the narcissist with regard to the secondary source so you KNOW if you are painted black or white.
  • Information which applies to anybody on the shelf, both Intimate and Non-Intimate Secondary Sources
  • Information which is specifically formulated for the Shelf IPSS, Shelf Dirty Little Secret or Candidate IPSS
  • What you can do to become painted white again
  • What governs the mind of the narcissist with regard to what makes you black or white
  • What factors affect you moving from black to white and white to black
  • Explanations with regard to the impact of your behaviour on the narcissist and vice versa
  • The options available to you when dealing with a narcissist when on the shelf.

This material is a necessity for anybody who is on the shelf with a narcissist, anybody who is in a relationship where they are having an affair with someone, where they are treated like a side piece or booty call. It is also advantageous for those of you who may have escaped a narcissistic ensnarement to utilise this information to build your Future Self because you ALWAYS remain at risk of attracting narcissists and if you have not been a Shelf Appliance in the past, there is a risk that this could happen to you.

To access this sensational material, utilise the button below and the three part Logic Bulletin will be sent to you by email for you to listen to the three detailed audio files. At an introductory cost of just US $ 55 for extensive and for clearing information, this will be one of the best and least expensive purchases you will make this year.

Understand and remove the fog, build your Future Self and utilise this Logic Bulletin today.

Logic Bulletin


486 thoughts on “Black or White? On The Shelf

  1. Renarde says:

    Hey all. So a funny thing has happened to me in the last 24 hours.

    I reactivated on Fetlife. Just felt it was important to. I had dreamt about an ex a few days ago and it had started me thinking about some very odd behaviour that happened between xmas 17 and march 18.

    The last thing I did before deactivating last year was to send a message to a woman I had previously helped and who now had in quite the plot twist became my ex’s CANIPPS. I wasn’t sure what to do. I knew he was probably a narc but he hasn’t actually devalued me when the formal ended. He just abruptly disengaged, never to be heard from.

    Having run two events, I am extremely political in the scene and savvy when speaking to others. I wished her well (I suspected she would be disengaged from) and that was that.

    When I logged in yesterday, and judging by her writing, he had disengaged from her too, very suddenly after four months and she was understandably hurt. Saying the usual, how it impacted on her sense of self-esteem etc.

    I reached out and essentially, she’s better now but she mirrored exactly what I had thought (she said it first obvs), lies over age (I told him his real one, not the fake ‘second age’. She was shocked by that (He was adding on at least eight years and decreasing his profile one every year). Pathetic, old, desperate liar, predatory behaviour round young females. What had driven the end between them was a series of quite serious lies that she found him out on and promptly refused to submit. Just as I did many years ago with the UMS ex-H.

    Of course the smear against me was revealed. I am mad, unstable, borderline and an abusive girlfriend. Girlfriend is a tad of a stretch since we slept together once and it lasted barely a week. He is slandering me to everyone. STILL. After 2 1/2 years.

    Now, I am sure this is a middle, panic attacks, too obvious, intelligent but remembered stuff from school. Too many obvious pot holes in his profile. Somatic I’d say.

    So here’s my question to HG. I was almost certain that a very strange profile that approached me post formal was him. Now, would it be possible for a UMS (or perhaps an E) to run two profiles with completely different ‘voices’? So ideas, motivations etc.And for the second profile to reveal an otherwise unknown ability to write and really quite well, especially the erotica. To also be far colder and logical in character.

    I’d almost convinced myself they were the same but it seems like an awful lot of bother to go through for such little gain.

    It wasn’t just the second profile, there was a female attached to it. I knew this one was also fake. Nothing about it was right. In a KIK conversation between the three of us, sometimes his avatar showed when it was clear they were the females words. The glitch happened a second time and I was told by another that it is possible to run two accounts simultaneously.

    Essentially, this is a mystery I had thought I’d put to bed but I’ve had real doubts about this for over a week. Interestingly,it was the second profile who was virtually ‘with me’ on the night of my suicide attempt in March so I actually would REALLY like to know who I was talking to. Because if it wasn’t the UMS then who then hell was it and how had he managed to fool me? Because I’d swear that second avatar was his torso. Even down to the jeans, top bottom unfastened and brown belt. I’d seen him look EXACTLY like that. IRL.

  2. ava101 says:

    Hi HG, how is total lockdown for you?
    So … I have a question, please, if possible, though a stupid one, I feel I should know:
    I have witnessed narc women in a work or social setting being extremely friendly to certain other women, especially new ones. Those have been kind of quiet wallflower types, more ….. harmless, blending in types. The same narc women have been at times downright hostile and bullying towards me.

    I don’t really see why, like … is that more a matter of triangulation, or more a matter of recruiting new lieutenants, and I am not the most suitable lieutenant, as I speak my mind, and can be at times more of a “leader” myself?
    Example: I made a new group online, and an aquaintance of mine, who I know from a different group she made, on a totally different topic though, downright attacked me. She had been extremely aggressive towards me in a boardgame before, too, manipulating others to team up against me, when I was like 1 point ahead of her and could have won … ridiculous, but same type of behaviour then seemed to happen in real life …

    So, in short, the question is, would they try to recruit individuals, who would follow them, when those are new to a group or at work?

    1. HG Tudor says:

      It is fine thank you, I am not locked down.

      In short, yes, they would.

  3. alexissmith2016 says:


    How is the below example categorised, routine word salad, dropping the bomb, devaluation, benign manipulation to assert control?

    For example, if a NISS ‘on and off’ gym training partner (not me by the way) messaged an N (the NISS has no reason to be painted black, usual meet up is once or twice per week for a short period), likely UMR to say, “do you fancy meeting up for a social distancing workout*, and the N replies a couple of hours later, “Yes been out everyday, been out running in the morning and do weights at home in the evening, how about you?”

    1. HG Tudor says:

      Maybe he missed a full stop or comma.

      “Yes. Been out everyday, been out running in the morning and do weights at home in the evening, how about you?”
      “Yes, been out everyday, been out running in the morning and do weights at home in the evening, how about you?”

      1. alexissmith2016 says:

        hahahaah tossa!

        Maybe he’s just a carbon copy of you then.

      2. NarcAngel says:

        I like cooking my family and pets.

        On a patient chart: Unable to eat diarrhea

        Commas are important.

        1. HG Tudor says:


        2. cheers for the back up NA

  4. Lorelei says:

    HG—what is happening in a hoover if the narcissist knocks on the door and is pleasant enough to be invited in. (Hypothetically) They wall in. This is say an upper lesser, lower mid range.. They walk in and start behaving inappropriately within a short time. Is that a Hoover that they instinctively felt was intended to be benign? What would drive the shift to shouting seemingly out of no where?

    1. HG Tudor says:

      It is benign direct physical hoover. The shift to devaluing behaviour will arise from the presentation of challenge fuel or wounding.

      1. Lorelei says:

        Does it take challenge or wounding to be painted black for this to occur? My friend said it was almost immediate. (The yelling after a pleasant knock on her door)
        Don’t you have to be black before the yelling? Is it that on/off? The shift in thought?

        1. HG Tudor says:

          It is difficult to be accurate without full details, but I suspect that the challenge or wounding had already happened and the relevant narcissist kept it under control, to get in through the door (being benign was the method of getting the door opened) and then immediately unleashes the malign treatment which as been driven the prior challenge or wounding. I doubt that from opening the door to the shouting the victim challenged or wounded (it is possible though less likely) and instead, control was asserted to enable access and then the malign treatment was delivered.

          1. Lorelei says:

            This goes back to my last query, is all this instinctual planning? It is such a weird concept. They “plot” on an instinctual level and pull off what appears calculated yes, but in this instance his held a heated type of fury back which seems in contrast with the more typical behavioral possibilities for a person who gets “heated.” See what I mean?

        2. theletterafterj says:

          A ruse to get you to let him in so he can then malign hoover you.

          1. Lorelei says:

            K—can we get to the point that even malign hoover/s are amusing? Actually, finding the benign ones as such should be more distressing because they may not “sting” but should elicit warning bells which are uncomfortable. When they behave in a malign fashion which is always close to childish it is more natural for us to feel bad—yet it should be amusing from a forensic perspective because it’s like watching a tired baby need a bottle because it’s that need being expressed on such a raw level. Why I mention this is that the kids often talk to their father via speaker. When he calls them he is not parenting, he is hoovering. My aim is to be able to disengage emotionally from the reminder of this person ever causing distress by viewing the behavior as forever pathological. I’m progressing but how far can we reasonably get? “Zero contact” is impossible from this aspect. I don’t speak to him, but hear him, see him pull up..

          2. K says:

            Yes, once you get your ET under control then your can “see” the hoovers for what they are, malign or benign, with indifference. Your goal is Zero Impact.

            Correct, when he calls, it’s a Parental Hoover and your job is to step back, bite your tongue and remain neutral.
            Hearing him speak and seeing him pull up are HUGE triggers. Hop onto narcsite and vent ASAP! Get it all out stat.

            Give yourself six months to get your ET under control, then it won’t bother you as much when he pulls up or talks to the children. Keep reading. Read until you fall asleep with a Tudor book in your hands. I burnt three pots of beans because I fell asleep either reading on narcsite or one of HG’s books. The fire alarm went off and scared the crap out of me. Third time is a charm; I threw out the beans AND the pot. It was a good pot, too, RevereWare.


          3. Lorelei says:

            He hates me right now so I think it’s hoovering the kids. I just painted a board outside. It was so exciting!

          4. theletterafterj says:

            Did you paint it Black?

          5. Lorelei says:

            K—I think this will go on forever sometimes. I’m not happy with how involved this shit is. I’m sorry about the revereware pot. I think I’ll be half nuts till I’m 55. Then I’ll just suffocate in a pot of beans weighing 300 lbs from eating them! I don’t even like beans. Not much anyway. Sour cream in refried ones yes, at the Mexican place.

          6. K says:

            Thank you Lorelei
            Hahahaha…I can always buy a new pot!

            It won’t last forever, just keep reading the articles and post your way through it. Trust me; it works.

  5. SMH says:

    Kim e, No, not offended. I just want people to #staythefuckhome and socially distance. Many are ignoring the directives (mandates in some places) that are simply going to end up putting a lot of stress on various health systems. All most of us have to do is to stay home. That is our contribution to the health of our communities, and it is not just about the virus. What about people with serious illnesses who won’t get treatment due to C19 patients taking up resources? You will NOT have a massage at your house next weekend. If you do, I will have to come over there and talk some sense into you! You shouldn’t be going to your office either. Hasn’t Chicago shut down yet? It’s coming…

    Yes, I realize your ET is still high and glad you did not decide to have a chat with W’s wife. It would just draw you back in. But I didn’t think you were really serious about it or all that tempted.

    Friend’s bf might well be an N but I didn’t carry on the conversation long enough to find out. I was afraid he would try to friend me before she woke up. They have a long history – she must know what he is like.

    Don’t get too dejected and definitely set up chats with people so you don’t feel isolated, because it will be a long time before you are able to have normal plans again. I have set myself a challenge of being able to plank for 60 minutes by the time this thing is over! Haha. Smooches!

    1. Kim e says:

      I agree 100%. After some thought about keeping my massage appointment just so you would come here and talk some sense into me…… I cancelled my massage. Chicago is shut down but the trains are still running and my office is open if we want/need to go in. I will play that one by ear and see what happens Monday.
      I went shopping yesterday so not worried about food. My worry about food is that I will gain from munching. TP can be replaced with kleenex if need be.
      I did planks yesterday too. I am disappointed in myself as I used to be able to do 1 for 1.5 minutes and yesterday struggled with 3 at 30 second intervals. I will get a routine going and as soon as I am done working in one bedroom, walk to the other and work out. I have weights, balance ball and bands, OR my gym is streaming work outs. I will plug my computer into my TV and sweat away.!!!!
      Think I will order some Vietnamese take out too. It will get me out of the house to drive there and help the little guy.
      I signed up for HG’s Q&A next Sunday too. I also heard a lot of museums have free videos on line.I watched the Natural Museum in NYC yesterday , Next will be a tour of Buckingham palace.
      Then HG’s house…….WOW…think of the money that would raise for Angel Fund!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
      Take care. I promise to only interact with 4 on line people at a time………………:-)

      1. SMH says:

        Kim e, On the one hand, I am glad I won’t have to go there and talk some sense into you because I don’t think I could get there (planes all grounded). On the other hand, I am sad not to have a purpose in life at the moment except to #staythefuckhome.

        Shall we have a plank contest? Let’s say two minutes by next Sunday? Think we can get there?

        Right now I am sitting on the sofa eating chocolate but in all honesty I think I will lose weight during this thing because I don’t have much of a kitchen and can’t be bothered to whip up more than a salad most of the time. Just got off an hour and a half Zoom call with people in NYC and another tomorrow with people in the UK. It is the new normal and interesting to see that many are actually soothed by seeing others they normally interact with in real life. It is good to know that we are all in this together, though not so good to know that we are all in it (at risk).

        TP can be replaced with water – there are portable bidets!

        And I think it’s a great idea to have a virtual tour of HG’s house. What say, HG?


        1. HG Tudor says:

          Yes it would be great to have such a tour. It will not be happening though.

          Let’s see if you can plank through the entirety of High Hopes by Pink Floyd, I may reconsider.

          1. SMH says:

            You’re on, HG. I’ll record it and send it to you in an email. Give me a few weeks!

          2. HG Tudor says:

            Ha ha, jolly good.

          3. SMH says:

            Everybody had better be rooting for me if they want to see the inside of your house. Hope you all are reading!

          4. Kim e says:

            HG. That is 8 minutes. You are on. SMH and I will have 8 packs by the time we are done

          5. HG Tudor says:

            8 packs of toilet roll perhaps?!

          6. Kim e says:

            HG…I would be happy with 1 pack of toilet paper these days.
            Keep up the jokes. James will need a replacement one day!!!!!

          7. SMH says:

            Kim e, You need to keep up the jokes too! Please! And yes, we’re on. 2 minutes by this weekend (I did 1 this morning) and 8 (just so we are in the clear) within the month. I have HIGH HOPES (and I love Pink Floyd). Smooches!

          8. Kim e says:

            SMH. Not a big Pink Floyd fan but that was who HG chose as the challenge song. So here we go…
            One question? Are we doing full arm planks? Bent arm on elbow planks? Or balance ball planks? I prefer full arm. Just so all is equal in planks vs planks

          9. HG Tudor says:

            Walking the plank.

          10. SMH says:

            Kim e, Yeah, let’s walk the planks. That will be easiest. I’ve been doing elbow planks because I don’t want to damage my wrists by putting too much weight on them. I’ve had carpal tunnel and I have to type a lot, including on here.

          11. Kim e says:

            SMH. I will be doing full arm planks. I forgot about your CT

          12. SMH says:

            Kim e, Your upper body strength is probably better than mine too. I hope mine improves even with the elbow planks. Going to do a few today at one minute each (already did one), and then increase by 15 seconds over the next few days.

          13. Kim e says:

            SMH…..Show off!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

          14. SMH says:

            Kim e, spoke too soon. As I said in my last post, it was really hard this morning. I think that’s because I had not had anything to eat or any coffee, etc. Will try again this afternoon. Might take a nap first.

          15. Kim e says:

            Upped my tiem to 45 seconds thism orning. Arms shaky and calfs sore (?) but I made it. Going to set my alarm to do these every 2 hours today. Get off my ass and accomplish something. Plus Sunday will be here before we know.
            Are you going to be on HG’s Q&A Sunday?

          16. SMH says:

            Kim e, I didn’t know about the Q&A until I figured it was all booked up. 45 secs? Girl, I am up to a minute this afternoon! Tomorrow I’ll focus on adding 15 seconds. My internet had gone out. That’s my main concern now! Imagine being isolated without the internet! Smooches!

          17. Kim e says:

            SMH Yep. that HG is a pretty popular guy. The other Q&A’s I have not signed up for just read afterwards. Live should be interesting.
            HG should set up a ZOOM meeting so that it is really live. No faces need to be shown. Kinda like a giant consult. Real people with real voices. Just a thought.
            Plank training here on and off all day. I have some lady in London that has challenged me and I will not be beaten….LOL

          18. Violetta says:

            Even when I was a stoner, I couldn’t smoke weed through five seconds of Pink Floyd, so I’m out.

          19. fox says:

            I popped in to see how you all are getting on and saw this. It reminded of how much I love (some of) Pink Floyd. Guess that’s going to be my work soundtrack for the day. I’ll do just a reasonable amount of planking though. I can live without a tour.

          20. zwartbolleke says:

            Oew, a tour of the house, and all we have to do is 8 minutes planking?? You will regret this Mr Tudor, easy peasy, we are on this!
            I would like another song however 🙂

          21. HG Tudor says:

            I never regret anything.

          22. Violetta says:

            Fox: I like The Wall and some of Animals (“Pigs: Three Different Ones”), but DSOTM is impossible for me. They used to play it at stoner-fests, and it was the most depressing thing I ever heard. I was depressed as a teen anyway; who needed this to exacerbate it? Everybody else thought it was So Kewl, but I couldn’t hear it.

            Ironically, I was right. They composed it about Syd Barrett’s descent into schizophrenia, and were puzzled when people decided it was meant to be trippy.

          23. alexissmith2016 says:

            I have plenty of loo roll. All you need is to know the right narc..!

            Happy to share x

          24. lisk says:

            I see that “may” there!

            Though, I guess if we plank and still don’t get the tour, we at least get a taut tummy.

            You are certainly good at incentivizing (as unnecessary as it is to tell you that).

          25. strongerwendyme says:

            Saw High Hopes played live on the Pink Floyd Division Bell tour. My second favorite concert after DM

          26. HG Tudor says:

            Did you plank, SWM?

          27. SMH says:

            Made me spit my coffee out again, HG. You are ruining my laptop.

          28. HG Tudor says:

            Easy with the blame shifting there SMH!

          29. SMH says:

            It’s nice to come here for your sunny disposition, HG. People are freaking out and getting into spats all over the place. The worst thing that happened to me today is that a pigeon flew in the window while I had my back turned, shit on the carpet, and flew back out. I kid you not. What does it all mean?!

          30. HG Tudor says:

            Must mean the Lower Mid Range Narcissist that could not get in here, flew to you instead, was wounded by your turning your back and did a cowardly shit on the carpet in order to assert control over you (through Provocation and Anal Insult) before retreating through a winged silent treatment.

            You see, it´s all learning in here.

          31. SMH says:

            That sounds about right, HG, except it must have been a Greater. A Lower Mid Ranger would have just farted.

          32. HG Tudor says:

            I can safely say I have never shat on anybody’s carpet.

          33. SMH says:

            Prove it, HG.

          34. HG Tudor says:


          35. Lorelei says:

            SMH—I learned about termites and their roles in the colony today & how important the queen is. It’s like narcissism in a way.

          36. SMH says:

            Lol Lorelei. I rather think of it as poking the bear (or the queen bee).

          37. Lorelei says:

            Yes but it’s important we learn about termites on here.

          38. K says:

            Hahahaha…Termite Lives Matter!

          39. Lorelei says:

            The reason I needed to know is due to my mulch. I can buy bulk mulch and no termite reproduction will occur, even if worker termites are in the mulch because they need the other termites to have sex and have babies. Or maybe its not “sex” but you know what I mean. I can safely not pre-treat based on this information. I’ve always bought bagged mulch feeling safer from Scott’s but I need a huge quantity. Anyway, I talked to pest control and he educated me. Also, we talked about bed bugs and I told him I strip in the garage after work to prevent bed bugs. I didn’t tell him more than that. He agreed I should be taking it off before coming in the house though. I think he was traumatized because he seemed normal. If he were a narcissist we would already be texting. How do normals ever hop in bed? Is it an accident? I don’t know how…

          40. theletterafterj says:

            Hahahaha…if you discover a hidden camera in the garage, go with Narcissist. Honestly, I have no idea how normals initiate the Devil’s Dance. Although they are normal, sometimes I have trouble understanding them.

          41. Lorelei says:

            You know, hidden cameras.. If they aren’t planning to manipulate how do they plant hidden cameras to record sex? Such a weird concept. I don’t want to see myself have sex, yuck. Apparently there was a sex VHS found in my parents stuff. I can honestly say I would be in an inpatient mental health ward for 90 days had I stumbled across this. I would be in a straight jacket medicated with crazy hair.

          42. theletterafterj says:

            Hahahaha…it’s all instinct. If you were a serial killer, you would have rope, handcuffs, wire ties or duct tape in your trunk or van (mobile murder machine) just in case.

            You might enjoy this clip from Modern Family.

          43. Lorelei says:

            I am not having luck with the link K. I can only imagine! If I were a serial killer with a van I think I’d have supplies on hand. HG says a lower lesser can’t think ahead to stock their fridge, for instance, they will run out of toilet paper soon. A mid range sort with a van would have supplies and that is where I would fall. I would have an awareness that such supplies need tucked under a blanket though, the instinct would be intact. I think. This is all so fucking bananasa.

          44. K says:

            Lower Lessers, most likely, wouldn’t own a van/car or have a valid Driver’s License, because they either never got a License or it has been revoked and they couldn’t afford wire ties or duct tape because they usually don’t work or they mismanage their finances so badly.

          45. Lorelei says:

            K—I think lower lessers are too lazy to be serial killers. Are there any HG? They can’t get up from the dilapidated couch they park on or change their socks. It’s the one category where we get to truly say they have characteristics of absolute uselessness. Chris Watts was a notch above if I recall. Big difference as he functioned and was clean etc. I’m telling you—it’s the lower lesser that stands way off alone and they are easy to spot!

          46. HG Tudor says:

            They can be serial killers but there would likely be longer periods of time between activity unless very easy targets were presented.

          47. Lorelei says:

            Because they are lazy! They can’t change their socks and probably don’t plan well.

          48. HG Tudor says:

            They do not plan. They operate through instinct.

          49. NarcAngel says:

            …and they drop their gloves and cut their fingers…

            They’re messy failures at it, but they can still get away with murder sometimes due to other circumstances.
            For a while.

          50. HG Tudor says:


          51. Lorelei says:

            But the glove doesn’t fit NA. Wasn’t me!

          52. Lorelei says:

            Speaking with my best friend living in Canada last night about the recent mass murder. The perpetrator killed by police… He sounded reasonably functional/educated to an extent which accords with a mid. (By her description as I’ve read nothing about him)
            Is it reasonable to think the type B mids are likely culprits for these retaliation crimes? More than a type A certainly? The perseverance on injustices and gaining fuel from establishing control by “fighting back?” Christopher Dornan a few years back in California as well?

          53. HG Tudor says:

            Difficult to state without having the full facts of the case referred to Lorelei, but as a general proposition, a MMR Type B would have to be very hard pressed to retaliate in this manner. More likely UMR.

          54. Lorelei says:

            Hmm—Dornan in California was not at all characteristic of a upper mid, this guy I’m not sure but he was driving around in quasi-police cars my friend said. I’ve seen this acquisition of police traits before. They don’t have expansive fuel matrices. Help!

          55. HG Tudor says:

            As stated, very difficult to provide any insight without information about the case you are referring to.

          56. Lorelei says:

            Google is at your finger tips. It’s peach time!

          57. HG Tudor says:

            I do not have time.

          58. Lorelei says:

            It would be interesting but understand. It’s this rare behavior of lashing out that is intriguing.

          59. Lorelei says:

            K—I wanted to let you know.. Yes, a narc detector on the boyfriend would be red hot after listening to my daughter describe behavior. He’s a lazy little fuck. I can even handle narcissists that work hard, the lazy ones need drowned. Accidentally of course. I held back and didn’t say anything. But I’ll point out behaviors. The Narc word is a sore subject.

          60. theletterafterj says:

            Hahahaha…I like “accidentally drowned”; it’s a great concept. My money is on Narcissist. None of my children’s friends are lazy. Pay attention; the behaviours will present before your very eyes, like magic.

          61. Lorelei says:

            Magic narcissist goggles! I don’t like lazy, normal or not.

          62. strongerwendyme says:


          63. Violetta says:


            “I would like another song however :-)”

            At least you don’t have to plank through 17+ minutes of “Inna Gadda Da Vida” (by acid-rock one-hit wonder Iron Butterfly).

          64. Violetta says:

            “Must mean the Lower Mid Range Narcissist that could not get in here, flew to you instead, was wounded by your turning your back and did a cowardly shit on the carpet in order to assert control over you (through Provocation and Anal Insult) before retreating through a winged silent treatment.”

            Ahh, horsefeathers, HG.

          65. Renarde says:

            Through the Keyhole with HG!


            In my head I’m writing it now!

        2. Kim e says:

          SMH. 2 minutes by next Sunday? You’re on.
          Working as we speak. And listening to High Hopes by Pink Floyd. Not sure why that song just popped into my mind 😀
          Lots of tedious stuff to do this week work wise. And going to go for a walk at lunch. Need some otter air to breath other than mine.
          Be back later

          1. fox says:

            Violetta: I love Animals, one of my favorites. I feel like The Wall is more depressing than DSOTM. DSOTM is beautiful to me (except Money, I hate that song). but I can understand why it’s not for everyone. Today I ended up listening to A Momentary Lapse of Reason though, an underrated album in my opinion.

            Hope you’re staying safe wherever you are!

          2. fox says:

            Sorry, commented in the wrong place. Ah well.

          3. Violetta says:


            Wall is depressing, but there’s a lot of anger too, as there is in “Pigs.” My problem with DSOTM is there isn’t that release of rage, except perhaps in “Money.” I hate “Money” too, however: it’s influenced by “Green Onions,” which I love, but the extra beats drive me up a wall (no pun intended).

            Trying to stay safe. I wear a paint mask to go outside to take out the trash or go grocery shopping (shortages on tp, rubbing alcohol, hand sanitizer, pasta, and witch hazel, but otherwise most staples are available). If I see someone with a puppy, I lift up the mask and go all cuddly, because life ain’t worth preserving if I can’t pet puppies.

            Hope you’re doing well also

          4. fox says:

            Thank you, Violetta. Plenty of shortages here too but I am doing ok so far. I don’t really mind being forced to work from home for now. At least my garden is blooming. 🙂

        3. Kim e says:

          Might as well yell at me now as I am going into my office tomorrow. Go on….get it over with

          1. SMH says:

            Kim e, And we have all just been locked down even more. Everything is closed. London is empty. I wasn’t planning to stray very far this week anyway. Not sure I can do this for three weeks but I will have to. Why are you going to your office? Nuts. Keep away from other people. My friend with cancer thinks her husband has it and she is immuno-compromised. She has to live in a different apartment from him.

          2. Kim e says:

            Chicago is a ghost town too. My train car which normally has 60 people had maybe 9 or 10. Home tomorrow until further notice. Need to go look for TP and chicken after I get home.

            ET high today at train station and on train. But I let myself think about it for aminute…whatever the memory was…and then said “it wasnt real and will never be like that again”. Amazing how ET makes us so HIGH and so Empty at the same time. I think back to the “new” days of me and W and I could feel him sucking me clean. I really do feel sorry for all the IPPS’s out there during this virus. Their lives have got to be more of a living hell then they were before.
            Plank practice tonight.
            What is the deadline date for the Pink Floyd challenge? End of March or April?
            Vegas cancelled.
            Thank goodness I dont need batteries

          3. SMH says:

            Kim e, Yes, I know what you mean about feeling like you’re being sucked clean. It causes anxiety/ET, which the narc then further feeds on. I’m glad you had that revelation and also that you are staying home for the foreseeable future both because it’s safer and because it will give you a chance to reset without the triggers.

            I went out today for about an hour with a friend (socially distanced walk and coffee) but when I got home I had a mild panic attack, washed everything, including the clothes I was wearing, took all of my prophylactics (vitamins, nasal drops, etc) and showered. I am afraid I will never be able to go outside again!! I haven’t heard anyone discuss agoraphobia. People are more concerned about being locked in and I am more concerned about having to go out.

            Plank practice already today but I think I did it too early and didn’t have the energy so I will do it again tonight. End of April, please. There is no way I will be anywhere near 8 minutes in a matter of days!

            Sorry about Vegas. I’ve had to cancel trips too. Don’t even know if/when I will get back to the states. My friend and I decided that as soon as this was over we were going to check on her multiple properties in three different European countries. Road trip!

            I have lots of batteries if you need them. Smooches!

          4. Kim e says:

            SMH Good Morning/Afternoon. Hall window up and Kitty enjouing sitting in it checking out the chirping birds. First day of the year it has been open. Still kinda nippy….wont be open long. But I needed some outside air in my space.
            Please dont let your fear of the outside get out of control. I read on another thread that you now have inside and outside clothes. Really not needed. If it were that bad, they would tell us do not venture out at all. I do not listen to any news about it other than what is on my local news. I believe, just like with a N, you can become obsessed with it and it will control the parts of your life it does not effect.
            Plank practive #1 done for today. I agree with the 8 minutes being the end of May, Hell I will be lucky to make the 2 minutes by Sunday. It definatly is a full body workout though. Today my neck muscles are hurting.
            My ET fear is that it is calm now but once we are allowed to resume regular lives it will spike and drag me back down. Guess I should be more like a N and be concerned about the here and now instead of the future. I am still hopeing beyond hope that his orders were not cancelled and that he is gone for months……..that would be great.
            Guess we all have some irrational worries…..
            Vegas rescheduled for August. Figure that might be far enough out. Fingers crossed.
            Bill passed to send people one time checks of something like 1200.00. So what. That will be gone for some as soon as it is received on stupid stuff. Maybe I am just cynical about it because I still have a job that I can do and get paid for. Once again it is a hand out the the people that live off the government getting free money. Thoughts? are they doing anything like that in the UK?

        4. Violetta says:

          “I would like another song however :-)”

          Be glad he didn’t require “Inna Gadda Da Vida”:

  6. alexissmith2016 says:

    I’m interested to understand from any of you IPPSs and IPSSs who remain in a relationship with an N, how the coronavirus is affecting the relationship.

    I’m guessing Ns will make more use of technology but it is not the same as proximate fuel. Ns will struggle with lockdown but will that make them re-idolise their IPPS or devalue them more due to having to be stuck around ‘stale fuel’? and what of the shelf-life. How will they be treated? I’m guessing if the IPPS gets a respite worse and if the opposite better?

    1. Supernova DE says:

      Personally I’ve already gotten hoovers (passive and direct) and I hadn’t heard anything from him in a while. Much more time on his hands to come back for me after I escaped.

      1. alexissmith2016 says:

        Thanks Supernova DE. Yes, I suspect they will all have much time on their hand.

        glad you escaped! were you IPPS or IPSS?

        1. Supernova DE says:

          Long distance IPSS. I think another good question is…will any of us succumb…I’m bored too haha.

          1. alexissmith2016 says:

            I know what you mean S DE! What will we do haha

          2. Violetta says:

            Use the time to catch up on your Narcsite reading and listening! I finally started Sex and the Narcissist after nervously tiptoing around it since Christmas, and the relief at seeing my instinctive suspicions put into words was indescribable. I’ve often wondered, if you got up on the middle of the old in-out-in-out and replaced yourself with something vaguely female, would some of these guys even notice? If the guy’s in the middle of his standard routine, i.e., this is how he always uses an appliance to masturbate, he might not.

          3. HG Tudor says:

            Wise words

          4. lisk says:

            Violetta, re: Would they even notice?

            Ugh, that just sparked some serious ET in the form of anger and regret.

            I knew when other guys were seeking an appliance, but, somehow, I ignored a vague sensation in my gut and then let myself be blind to Narcx shenanigans (Happy Saint Patrick’s Day!).

            I often say that if I had found HG during the entanglement, it wouldn’t have mattered. I would not have listened to HG. I still believe that.

            However, if I would have found HG, and especially Sex & The Narcissist, I would have saved myself from many wasted years.

            I know this even though I have not read the book yet!

          5. alexissmith2016 says:

            Agreed Violetta,

            Sex and the N solidly remains my favourite book. I had a reasonable understanding about Ns when I read the book and this made everything completely slot into place. One of the biggest information gaps I had at the time was then filled. Truly eye opening. I cannot recommend it highly enough.

            THere were lots of other Ns I had known in my life whom I was never attracted to whom I used to think you literally have zero sex appeal yet you talk about sex like your some kind of sex god? Yet there was just something about them which did not add up at all.

            I have to admit I was fooled by other Ns whom I have had sex with relationships in relationships gone by. Whilst I learned that Ns could not love me later in life, it was tough to come to terms with the fact that the actual physical sex never meant anything either. For me this book was revolutionary.

            Fuel is the rule! that’s all it ever was.

          6. Lorelei says:

            It’s almost like having sex with those aliens that landed in Roswell and were rumored to do anal probes! That’s about as fundamentally real as it is.

          7. Lorelei says:

            Alexis—I don’t think I could have sex with a narc now without laughing, or thinking of it as being a non-human.

          8. alexissmith2016 says:

            Hahha for sure! Imagine all those little things we thought were ‘off’ before, now we know. we weren’t mistaken, the somatic and elite actually were checking themselves out in the mirror during their ‘performance’. Or for the victim N they were looking down at their psoriasis and feeling sorry for themselves needing it covered in cream. Whilst the cerebral was wondering if you could hurry up so he didn’t miss ‘egg heads’ (a Uk quiz TV show)

            I’m interested from anyone whose had sex with a victim or cerebral type. Do they manage to climax?

          9. WokeAF says:

            Yes *shudders* that gave me a flashback

          10. Lorelei says:

            Omg I’ll never put cream on someone. He’d need euthanized if it got to that point. I’ve never had sex with anyone intelligent, so I don’t know if they climax or not. Victims seem they would be overall shit in bed.

          11. Lorelei says:

            Alexis—this amuses me:


          12. Supernova DE says:

            The MMRN I was IPSS to is cerebral, or at best a cerebral leaning elite. I’ve never had physical sex with him, just foreplay when we were together IRL. Virtual sex/phone sex often. He is complete shit at foreplay, terrible kisser and has no finesse or sensuality.
            When he seduced me, he was in a weird somatic type phase, he was working out like crazy and his body was insane (he was also coming off a fuel crisis so maybe that was his way of dealing with it). That quickly faded and he looks like shit these days, even his neck and jawline are chubby, his eyes look so exhausted, blech

            After reading Sex while still entangled, I realized all the times I commented, “Did you come, you’re so quiet”….yea he wasn’t having an orgasm, just pretending while listening to me on the phone. He always presented himself as a sex god, so adventurous and experienced in bed, and also presented himself as having an extremely high sex drive. Probably that was all mirroring of me.
            As far as if he has trouble reaching orgasm…not sure. He often used devices to help himself, like penis pump or vibrator, so maybe that indicated he does have trouble.

            Curious if others will weigh in on this.

            So far I’m holding out on falling for the hoovers, writing this post helps a lot! Haha

          13. alexissmith2016 says:

            Hahah this is great!! Thanks for sharing. It’s funny how they think they’re some sex god when they’re not. I remember pantman who sounds similar to yours like a cerebral leaning elite only because in His head he is elite, was desperately trying to hit on me to their point where one time he tried to convince me I was missing out big time on his sexual prowess. He described what he does to ‘all the girls’ I recorded him the whole time and was sniggering down the phone. Needless to say I think he would have bored me shitless.

          14. Kim e says:

            AS2016. Cerebral and climax did occur every time but I believe it is because I am so good😂😂💯💯💋

          15. Violetta says:


            “It’s almost like having sex with those aliens that landed in Roswell and were rumored to do anal probes!”

          16. njfilly says:


            “I’ve never had sex with anyone intelligent, so I don’t know if they climax or not.” You are too funny. Were you trying to be funny, or just real?

            My narcissist was a victim. He was actually quite good at sex which surprised me, and I have had a lot of sex, so I do tend to internally rate a man’s experience and performance. I believe he did watch a lot of porn so he learned some moves from it. When he kissed me, he kissed very good. Also very surprising as a lot of men just don’t know how to kiss. He often didn’t climax, though, which I questioned him about once and it made him very angry, even though I was asking out of concern since I’m not used to that. He did occasionally climax during oral sex, however.

            Often there was no foreplay involved, just bending me over and pulling my hair and I enjoyed that very much so I didn’t care. He was lucky, though, that I am basically ready for sex at any given moment anyway so I didn’t need his foreplay.

            At one time I did consider that I had a sex addiction. I have read Mr. HG Tudor state that there is no sex addiction, but rather it is narcissism, so I am not sure how that applies to me since he determined me to be an empath.

            I enjoy sex very much. Having it, experimenting with it, looking for it, anticipating it, and discussing it. I have had many sexual partners in my lifetime, and I worked for an escort service off and on in the 1990’s. I have had more casual sex partners than I have had relationships. Way more. I have often in the past, and even currently, gone to bars on the weekends and picked up men, brought them home for sex, then never see them again. Conversely, I don’t recall ever being picked up by a man. I am always the instigator. I can be very assertive.

            I’m a little bored today so I decided to admit to some things. I will consider this my confession. My confession to God, not to you Lorelei. Although, He already knows all the things I have done.

          17. Lorelei says:

            I believe it’s accurate that I’ve never had sex with a human at least njfilly. Intelligent yes—but not self aware which equates to lacking any substance. I’m not dating, it’s impossible. I’m also impossible. It’s distressing, distracting, and absolutely not an option. I can’t manage or deal with it. I shudder at the thought, in fact, because my recent dalliance was so upsetting. I am not good at casual sex.

          18. K says:

            You are an empath so you may find these comments helpful.

            FoolMe1Time says:
            March 11, 2020 at 15:41
            HG do you believe in some cases, not all, that what the empath is feeling is also infatuation, because of perhaps the trauma they have gone through previously or simply for the attention they are craving?

            HG Tudor says:
            March 13, 2020 at 09:07
            No, it is the product of the addiction and emotional thinking, FM1T.


          19. Lorelei says:

            K—I thought of this too, the concept this link discusses. It’s been an important insight.

          20. theletterafterj says:

            Another Logic Bulletin that would be very helpful is “Why Am I Drawn To Toxic Behaviors”. Although, toxic behavior is relative. There’s nothing wrong with escorting or smoking pot, as long as it isn’t negatively affecting your life.


          21. Lorelei says:

            I do have this one K.

          22. K says:

            I just purchased it today!.

          23. Lorelei says:

            Flying Monkeys was excellent too.

          24. HG Tudor says:

            Thank you Lorelei.

          25. Lorelei says:

            You are welcome. It’s good reading for anyone on how control & influence co-exist for any of us.

          26. K says:

            Good to know; I will put it on the To Do List.

          27. Lorelei says:

            Yes it’s a short inexpensive read that is essential.

          28. WokeAF says:

            Oooh sold!!
            I was swarmed by them on FB yesterday as I (and two other friends of the subject) posted calm, logical, empathic implorations for the subject to NOT go get her nails done after she bragged she was doing it regardless of the hype- -we were concerned bc she and her husband work in the medical and police field respectively, are right on the firing lines and coukd infect HUNDREDS if not thousands as well as take down everyone in the shift or department.
            Well!! She couldn’t have this – so she deleted the post and then posted AGAIN, lamenting that she just had to delete an entire thread bc other ppl who agreed w her felt scared to post it. And how it’s ridiculous social media hype. She wasn’t sorry for herself but didn’t want others (Who had of course privately messaged her to tell her they were afraid to back her- BULLSHIT as was evidenced.

            IMMEDIATELY a swarm of well meaning empaths came to her defence , lambasting me and anyone else who DARED to judge Miss I-Save-The-World-so-I’m-getting-my-nails-done.
            This was bc they were seeing ONLY her very cleverly worded pity play thread- not the original which was NOT an attack on her by any means.
            Her husband (somatic MMR-A) even jumped in posting nonsense about a lion not listening to the opinions of sheep, throwing character assassination at me saying I was probably a TP hoarder, etc.
            The flying monkeys tried to devour me and I responded a few times with LT then realized I don’t really even like this person why am I on her FB?! And blocked despite knowing her well since we were kids (and she was not a kind friend to ME- )

            I’d been on the fence until this as she posts pics, status, and such much in line with a grandiose UMR elite or a MMR-A elite but the way she handled this makes me Suspectt UMR.

            HG- the “power couple” narcissists when both are narcs– are they always Greater?

            Flying Monkeys are so blinded by ET and the facade .

          29. HG Tudor says:

            No they are not.

          30. WokeAF says:

            Just to clarify- “no they are not” in answer to my question ?

          31. HG Tudor says:


          32. WokeAF says:

            Thank you.

          33. HG Tudor says:

            You are welcome, it will work if you try it WAF. If not, let me know and I will sort it out for you.

          34. WokeAF says:

            I got it! No worries xx

          35. Lorelei says:

            If she were me. She would have her nail technician’s phone number and she’d already be set up to do it in her home! I have all arrangements covered. Also, she does my eyebrows! Haha

          36. Violetta says:

            There’s an early episode of South Park where aliens implant an anal probe in Cartman, and every time it’s activated, he starts performing “I Love to Sing-a!” You can find clips on YT.

          37. Lorelei says:

            Omg I live for that silly stuff!

          38. njfilly says:


            I’m better at casual sex than relationships. I don’t do very well in relationships and I think I am better off alone. Also, I handle it very well. In the past 20 years I have only had one relationship. That was my 2 1/2 years with the narcissist.

            In the past, I have always ended my relationships. I get bored with them, and the sex. I enjoy the excitement of a new sex partner. Although there are ways to keep sex exciting and interesting I have found men to be very mentally lazy. In my life men have always wanted me more than I want them. Maybe I should consider myself lucky.

            I had a great man at one time but he was killed in a motorcycle accident. I feel the anger in me right now, just by writing about it. Sometimes my anger intensifies my sexual encounters. Some day I hope to get to the heart of my many issues.

          39. Violetta says:


            But she wants her nails done for the good of Humanity!

            Such altruism.

          40. Renarde says:

            This is a corker of a thread!

          41. Lorelei says:

            Renarde—maybe I need a long distance IPSS. Is that the one you get Skype sex with? I get mixed up on the abbreviations! How can I get food if it’s long distance though?

          42. Renarde says:


            Maybe we should all get one?

            We could make a narc dating site! They cannot touch us cos if self isolation. WE could then draw up a list of qualities that we want. And then charge a fee for membership.Emps free obviously. And HG would win as all narcs will be forced to undergo a NDC!

            We could have endless fun! Could be an incredible learning experience for Emps.

            Is this one of my more hair brained schemes?

          43. Lorelei says:

            But Renarde.. If it’s all empaths it is all free and then HG wins nothing..

          44. Renarde says:

            No no! Narcs to enter will be required to have a version of the NDC. Of course, the results wont be told to them.

            It will just be a standard ‘sign up questionnaire’. Money to him. We get the ultimate sandbox.

          45. Kim e says:

            That reminds me. I need to go clean Kitty’s litter box

          46. Renarde says:

            Kim e

            Me too! Eep!

          47. Lorelei says:

            Renarde—I’m amused you poked fun at yourself and announced being a lower lesser victim! I too share this. I am a greater cerebral lower lesser victim somatic. It’s a very interesting conglomeration of attributes. Never before seen in fact!

          48. Renarde says:


            Ha ha! I almost said ‘Super Ultra, Mega Elite’

            But I durstant!

          49. Lorelei says:

            Renarde—I am also mega elite. In the victim sense. Seriously though—the victims annoy me. I can’t stand a whiny type. Even my ex knew if he was sick (for example) to shut up. Zero tolerance.

          50. Renarde says:


            Victims are terrible. They really are.

          51. Violetta says:

            I’m a Lower Lesser Co-Dependent Empath. Five minutes after I try to beat the shit out of people (and usually get my ass kicked), I feel terribly guilty and start looking for reasons in their traumatic childhoods why they would act this way and wondering how I could’ve helped them, if I weren’t such a bad person.

          52. HG Tudor says:

            For new readers, there is no such thing as a Lower Lesser Co-Dependent Empath, in case the above joke confuses anybody.

    2. LD says:

      Hi Alexis,

      I am in this situation as an IPSS and wondering the exact same thing. N starts work from home tomorrow until this blows over and IPPS will be laid off as she can’t work from home. Her kids will be there too the whole time with no school. I am very curious as to how this will play out. Perhaps HG will give a predication or one of the other ladies will share there experiences.

      So far N has been saying stuff about how he’ll have more time to communicate with me and perhaps even tell her he is going into work for a day, and we’ll hang out – not holding my breath yet. Historically on other long holiday breaks, he seems to be done with his home situation after all that time, so mine improves but in true N fashion it all flips around again.

      What are you experiencing?

      1. Thanks for your reply LD. That’s really interesting to get your take on things.

        I am fortunate enough to be an escaped IPSS but I do still ‘dabble’ as a NISS who perhaps gives misleading signals to Ns. Got to get some fun somewhere!!!

        I did receive a hoover from the Ex-N about a week ago. I was polite because it service my purpose now but I did not engage beyond politing asking how he was. And responding in a friendly way to his pity play and dull monologue.

        One who has been attempting to seduce me was hoovering a fair bit and then I got a twatty corrective devaluation and I’m not sure whether this is related to COVID or not? He got a swift sharp NC to his twatty message where he would have been expecting me to be confused and upset I’m sure. But LT has taken over to such an extent that I find it impossible to feel confused or upset by N behaviours any more. I got some interesting texts and lots of calls which I just ignored.

        I digress re my own situation. I guess I hope others are able to achieve that same sense of LT without the need to manipulate like I do. I recognise its not healthy but I just can’t help myself at all. And like a true addict, nor do I want to.

        As you say when they are on holidays with their family they become quite desperate to get away from them. I do recall my ex-N was very much like that.

        So I would guess that all Ns everywhere will be reaching out to their shelfs and escaping the lockdowns imposed on them at any cost.

        I presume the lockdowns will also be a critisim to an Ns omnipotence.

        I’ll be very interested to hear your updates on how things pan out. I would imagine yours will probably sneak out to meet you as and when he can. Do you know are you the only IPSS? or one of many?

        1. LD says:

          I’ve only recently discovered what I am dealing with – we’ve had a 10 relationship – FWB off and on again. Never progressed mostly because I thought timing was never right from my end…..Learning all I have learned from HG and looking back, I shudder to think how dense I have been. Haven’t gone NC and still learning more and processing. Not strong enough yet to go there.

          It will be very interesting to see what happens – no fuel from work will definitely be a change for him as will not being able to call me daily. Looking back, I think there are times when I was/am the only IPSS, but I suspect at current there might be another at the office. Could be wrong – just a gut thing.

          Love your perspective and will be interesting to see how the hoovers continue. Let’s definitely compare notes to see how the N’s handle the Covid situation for sure!

          1. alexissmith2016 says:

            You’re definitely not dense LD. don’t ever think that. Mine with the N where I worked out what Ns are was just the last of many. Friends, family exes from long ago etc

            You will gain the strength you need eventually. This is a new beginning for you and will continue to progress in your favour as the LT rises.

            Yes please. Let’s compare. I’m pretty low in the fuel matrix now as I’m not anyone’s IPSS but I’m expecting hoovers and if I don’t get then I’ll be bloody well inviting them!

    3. Kim e says:

      Alexissmith2016. I was wondering the same thing. All the fuel from the office and the other day to day places they go is not there.
      Wonder if the IPPS is in devaluation if it will be ramped up to replace the positive fuel gone. And this could be weeks…..oh my!!

      1. alexissmith2016 says:

        maybe we could make the creatures appear on a mass scale!

        1. Violetta says:

          Starting Amber Heard and Meghan Markle
          –um– that’s Meghan Markle and Amber Heard–
          Uh-oh, here comes Angelina Jolie!

          Girls, please, you’re all pretty!

    4. Violetta says:

      I wonder if MM chasing Just Harry around the mansion waving a rolling pin because there’s no Met Gala for her to crash & it must be H’s fault “if you REALLY cared about me–“

      1. alexissmith2016 says:

        hahahaha I was literally thinking of her today and how she was coping with the headlines focussed elsewhere for some time ahead!

          1. alexissmith2016 says:


          2. WhoCares says:

            “Meghan and Harry are working with experts on how to best serve the public during this time, believing the pandemic is also a mental health crisis and feel ‘compelled to help’.”

            Well, at least the mental health crisis part is insightful – because it will be, due to social isolation, for some.

      2. Renarde says:

        Good point Vi.

        Poor PH.

    5. Lorelei says:

      Screw the virus—I say we electively get syphillis and spread to the narcs. If they don’t catch it before the tertiary stage it makes them even dumber than they are Alexis!

      1. Liking your style Lorelei! Liking your style very much

      2. Violetta says:


        That’s what they made brainwashed political prisoners confess in 1984: “I deliberately infected myself with syphilis….”

        You Thought Criminal, you!

    6. WokeAF says:

      Oh lord. Well my babydaddy is (IMHO) a ML or LMR , Victim cadre (narc detector results due any day) and since his work is closed he has our kid. If I was to be stuck at home 24-7 with my highly anxious, autistic teen I fear it won’t be Corona that is the end of me.
      Accordingly I am supplying food etc bc he has no $.
      So that is involving waaaay more contact than usual to start. Honestly he is THE most irritating person on the planet to me.
      HE is LOVING IT bc not only is he getting the residual benefits ($, food etc) but also positive fuel from me in our interactions (as of course I’m monitoring my ET and trying to keep things flowing) AND positive (& some neg) fuel from our son.

      The upside is It m getting free time to volunteer in our community to do necessity-runs etc and getting to spend the rest of the time social-distancing in peace.

      If it all goes tits-up and our family has to band together long term for survival then there better at least be zombies.

      1. Lorelei says:

        I love your spirit Woke.

      2. WokeAF. You wouldn’t want to be stuck at home with your teen or are you quoting the words of your N?

        1. WokeAF says:

          I wouldn’t want to be.
          I’ve just been through a two month nightmare while he detoxed off his SSRI. He’s steadying out now but I desperately need the break… and March break without any social activities or the like for him would do be in right now.
          Dad has just bounced back into the picture after a year’s absence so he’s having a really good time with him. Excellent timing , Covid19

          1. WokeAF says:

            Do *me* in right now ^^

    7. Tired says:


      IPPS here. Husband forced to work from home for the next several weeks. I must be painted white at this time because he hasn’t been the absolute Asshole I thought he might. He has become nicer and has actually engaged me in conversation, a big change from ST’s , anger, and one word answers. He actually shocked me and told me he is enjoying working from home.
      I do know the DLSIPSS has been pestering him about not being able to speak with him when she likes during this time. She tells him how awful it’s going to be for him stuck here with me 24/7 . If she only knew ! Lol 😂 he has always played the victim, and the pity playing is plentiful.
      He blew her off the last few days. They’ve always had the push pull thing on both their parts , I suspect she’s a narc too.
      The way they speak to each other is pathetic, childish , if you will. I’m not aware of what excuses he’s been giving her about starting a divorce procedure, but she has been pushing him hard on that for many months now. She pushes, he withdraws, she backs off , and repeat.
      My ET thinking has reduced a lot the last month or two. I no longer worry they will meet in person and sleep together, I mostly don’t give a shit anymore. It’s comical hearing about their interactions, two pathetic individuals, especially considering their age.
      I plan on keeping busy and being out of the house a lot while he’s home. I won’t give him a reason to complain to her about me , and I need to get out more for ME . I hate having him home all the time now.
      I am trying to detach from my husband, perhaps he senses that and it’s why he’s been nicer to me. That said, it could change as quickly as it started. I’m pretty sick of this shit.
      Some days I am so tempted to call both their bluffs and call her and ask her to come pick him up , because they are so in luvvvv , right?! When push comes to shove if he really wanted to leave he would have already taken steps IMHO, and frankly I don’t think she really wants to commit to having him living under her roof. I think it would last about a week. There’s no way in hell I’d ever take him back.
      The next few weeks will be interesting.

      1. alexissmith2016 says:

        Thanks Tired, that’s incredibly helpful to understand. It must be so hard for you. I’m pleased you’re switching off to it and your ET is coming down now.

        I suspect he does sense that you are switched off and as you say he is unlikely to be able to keep the nice behaviour up for too long. Is he a mid?

        I wish you all the best in keep gaining strenght and thank you so much for taking the time to reply

        Alexis x

      2. Violetta says:

        “Some days I am so tempted to call both their bluffs and call her and ask her to come pick him up , because they are so in luvvvv , right?!”

        Please, Tired, get it on video if you do it. I’d pay good money to see that one! Can you imagine the looks on both their faces?

        1. Tired says:

          I fully intend to get the final confrontation on video. I have thought about buying a domain and dedicating a blow by blow of the daily goings on , anonymous of course until the final confrontation. I’d rent a giant billboard with his secret cell number on it too if I had the funds to do it!!
          Some of the stupid and sleazy things the two of them have done/said might make them the most hated pair on the Internet.
          Those IRL who I confide in are amazed with my restraint thus far, they say they’d have lost it on them months ago. I’m amazed myself, it’s not in my nature to keep my mouth shut, I prefer to confront immediately and fix . This time however because I feel an end is coming I needed to watch, wait , and gather as much evidence as possible. Patience has paid off, the two of them are going to be completely fucked.
          Every time I think they couldn’t possibly do anything else to shock me, something else pops up. I almost don’t want it to end because it’s become entertaining. LOL.
          My ET has decreased, though not completely gone.
          Curious for any one else reading this, if you as the OW got a phone call from the wife telling you to come pick up the husband, he’s all yours , what would you say, how would you react??
          My husband tells his OW that I’m desperate to keep him ( paraphrasing). Nothing could be further from the truth , on the contrary I have told him if he wasn’t happy to get out , he’s refused every time. I may be scared to start over , but damned if I’ll ever let him know that. I’d never beg for him to stay, EVER.
          Sorry, rambling on .
          Alexis , I believe he is a mid ranger middle or upper. Someday I’ll get a analysis from HG , I’d like to confirm that.,

    8. LD says:

      Hey Alexis….how did your week go? Any hoovering?

      I got texts Wed, he sent coffee break “pictures”…wtf?, my ET made me respond politely. (man I am still such a sucker), he went quiet after he confirmed I was still around. Nothing further. Today feeling trapped at home was starting to make me feel anxious so I checked in..pathetic comfort crumbs. Whining about crappy virus, too many people home. Ugh…I gotta grow a backbone…off to read more HG to help me out.

      1. Aww LD, sort your ET is high.

        I was wondering when I’d get a hoover from all the Ns I ‘collect’ lol. Today my phone was like a narc hotline! Like you just ‘check-ins’ so they don’t lose contact

        I’m sorry he did that. Try not to feel anxious about being at home. Maybe make good use of the time. Definitely read more HG but perhaps learn a second language or Musical instrument anything which will help keep you focused and that little twat off your mind xxx

        1. LD says:

          Thx…appreciate your kind words. Wondered if they’d be tracking you down by now – did you have a little fun with them or just let them sweat the silent treatment?!

          Trying to make some lists tonight of projects I always want to get to but never have time – being productive seems to help the anxiety and might reduce my ET. I think it’s the uncertainty of how long this all goes on. Plus breaking the addiction – I got a little to use to a phone call every day until this started.

          I typically don’t hear from him on the weekends and with all that’s going on, I suspect I won’t for sure – it’s miserable of me but I hope it’s a rough one for him – just out of spite. I bought and started reading No Contact – so we’ll see how I feel next week about getting to that point.

          Enjoy your weekend!

          1. It’s not miserable if you at all. It’s perfectly natural to want them to have a rough time. I want him to have a rough time on your behalf!

            It varies how I behave with Ns now. Literally depends on what suits my purposes but they are never permitted to be part of my inner circle of friends to the point if there as a single N in a group of friend I ditched the entire group. So whilst I play with them it is entirely segregated from my true friends.

            I can’t recommend NC highly enough. But when you do t, so it properly. I changed my number and deleted his. Xxx it helps xxx

        2. Leolita says:

          Why don’t you block them?

  7. LA says:

    HG – I bought and listened to this but now I have a question. Do LMR’s feel guilty about cheating on the IPPS under any circumstances? Mine said he was feeling guilty and suggested he needed to park the physical for now due to his guilt…..could it be legit or just a manipulation of me? If manipulative – how the heck does that help?!

    1. HG Tudor says:

      Thank you for doing so LA.

      No, LMRs do not feel guilt. They have no capacity for it. His suggestion of being guilty was False Contrition and is done my his narcissism for the purposes of manipulating you by way of facade management and possible pity play.

  8. Kim e says:

    HG. You state that being painted black may not have anything to do with something we have done but as a shift in the fuel matrix. When there is such a shift how does the N pick who becomes white and who becomes black?
    Thank you

    1. HG Tudor says:

      There is no conscious choice, it is an instinctive shift. The narcissist does not sit and think “My wife has pissed me off, who shall I now be nice to, ah I know, Betty Bootycall.” Instead, the wife challenges the narcissists control, she is painted black, the mistress IPSS Shelf, is then painted white, the occasional bunkup DLS is also painted white too. There is a Hoover Trigger (the narcissist just thinks about them both because his wife has challenged him and his mind naturally goes to those individuals he is interacting with) in respect of IPSS and DLS. The HEC are met for both of them too, he fires off a text asking if they are around, the DLS responds fastest and so he heads off to meet her, firing back a comfort crumb to the Shelf IPSS who responded but a tad slower than the DLS.

    2. SMH says:

      Kim e, Are you white or black at the moment? 🙂 HG’s response makes me think that all those times MRN kept me online for hours on end while he figured out whether he could come over were really him figuring out which DLS/SIPSS/IPPS he wanted to see. I know that isn’t true because I knew where he was most of the time, but this stuff makes one paranoid. How did your consult go? Smooches!

      1. HG Tudor says:

        It will have been because he was engaging with others online at the same time.

        1. SMH says:

          Yeah, I figure that is correct but I mean seeing someone in person. I have no idea about the online stuff – only the real life stuff.

      2. Kim e says:

        HI Long time!!!!
        At this point in time I am painted white. Definitely. Going thru a fuck it stage where I have decided to get my fixes and be stupid. I am sure it is all ET based but…OH WELL. I am sure something will happen sooner or later that pisses me off and I will go NC again. It always seems to be pretty soon after I see him….LOL.
        I am off to Florida Tuesday for much needed sun and fun. When I told W the first thing he asked was “when are you back”……LIke I said getting my fix.
        My consult was good. I know you are thinking “How the hell does that work?”. You consult and then allow you ET to take over. I learned of cracks I had left open in my NC so now when my LT says ENOUGH I know what needs to be closed.
        I have to be honest with you regarding this. Honestly thought about not fessing up and just going with the flow. But as you have always been truthful with me and made this a no judgement zone I had to be honest. It is where I am right now…yes I know what is up but like I said above happy with my fix right now.
        Doing laundry and packing today.
        OH yea….not sure if you listen to country music but listen to Little Big Town “Better Man” perfect for us.
        Went to a movie and dinner with Kathi last night. Movie was great. Dinner was back…..lots of fat on my steak. So much that I even complained and got a discount.
        I went to bed and tossed and turned for what seemed like days. It was 130. I got up to have a bowl of Cheerios and surprise….I had gotten a text at 1230….How was your movie and dinner date???? I laughed at the word date. Hunting for info? Do they get jealous of DLS’S? Are we to stay in like the IPPS? I am going tp do my thing and fit him in…that is the plan for now. We will see
        Off to find other things from you I need to reply to.
        Not sure if I will be on the board or replying next week. If not, I will the next week.

        1. SMH says:

          Hi Kim e! Good to hear from you! You didn’t need to tell me really. I already knew because if things were going badly, you would have been here more :). It’s fine. I hope you enjoy it while it lasts. Yes, they do get jealous if you are not sitting around waiting for them. Even post-escape, MRN would get jealous. That is what blew things up in the end. My attention was not on him. You have the advantage of all of the knowledge you now have from this site, and I hope it serves you well.

          I am very tired of the weather here and so jealous that you are going to FL. Have a great time! A lot on my plate this week – work, film, theatre twice, two dinners, etc, so it will be busy. Then I am moving again because I don’t like where I am living. Maybe I will have something more exciting for you when you get back. You never know! Smooches!

          1. Kim e says:

            I knew that you knew that but I just had to tell youso that I was sure you really knew….ya know??????!!!!!!!!!!
            I was so excited about the reservations I had made for Florida. I was not leaving until 1600 so I could sleep in. BUT NO!!! The great Chicago weather F’d me as we are suppose to get slammed with raina nd snow. So now I am on a 10:00 flight and I cant sleep in…BOO!!!!!
            But……the bright side is I wont be here when they get slammed.
            Are you staying in NYC whenyou move?
            I find it hard to believe that will al lthe things you have been doing you have managed to stay out of trouble. Shit, I sit on my couch and get in trouble.
            Take Care. If you need bail while I am gone, tell HG. Maybe Angel Assist can help…LOL

          2. SMH says:

            Kim e, I know. I do worry a bit about your up and down moods. Means you are really hooked on the narc dope.

            I am moving within London. My friends are in FL right now planning our August yacht outing :). Have fun! Smooches!

          3. Kim e says:

            SMH. Not that it makes it right or wrong but you are totally correct. Totally hooked and have admitted from day 1. And the thing that really sucks is I am sure W knows it too. So it will take me hitting rock bottom like it did with my other favorite drug (unnamed) before anything happens or changes
            Talk later

          4. NarcAngel says:

            Careful. Rumour has it that rock bottom has a basement, and no one wants to see you there. I hope you enjoy your new gym and that it helps with a different focus. Music is a must (with a pre selected no narc reminder playlist). Get pumped!

          5. SMH says:

            Kim e, Well, at least you know. That’s the first part! Ha. I think because this happened to me once before (with a person), I knew from the get go what it was. In fact, I still have one of those never sent emails to MRN all about addictions. I had only seen him three or four times at that point. I thought he was addicted to porn and I was addicted to him (both probably true). With my real ‘other’ substance (unnamed), I went into exile for a year as an alternative to being dead. I seem to have some brakes or just a hell of a lot of self-control.

            I know you are off today so safe travels! I might have some dating stories for you when you get back. Smooches!

          6. Kim e says:

            SMH…..Hitting Vegas in April with 9 other women that all met years ago when all our kids were in basic training.
            Are you based in London or NYC? Or both?

          7. SMH says:

            Kim e, Welcome back! (Or perhaps it is me who needs to be welcomed back, or maybe HG – I think he was waiting for you to get back to get back himself :)). I am in both. Vegas sounds like fun! I see your other message and will respond more to that. Smooches!

          8. Kim e says:

            SMH……Hi. Checking in.
            Florida was a bust. I have knownthe people I wnet to see for about 20 years. I was friends with husband first. We went to all the airshows we could find along with a group of 4 – 8 others. I met the wife later, but she knew of me and referrs to me as “Johns girlfriend”.
            I was dating one of the others that was going to the airshows (until he decided he wanted to marry me 6 years in without consulting with me and spilled the beans to his wife) and I then quit going to airshows.
            SO….the 3 of us really have nothing in common any longer. They are older and dont get around much. So I was bored to death. We sat around, ate and drank. I gained 6 pounds. (I have since lost it…rum and tequila are fattening) I do not think I will be back to see them and I can say for sure I will not be flying into or out of the Orlando airport again. It is a nitemare with all the Disney travlers. I am also going to payt he money and get on the TSA PreCheck list and never have to remove my shoes again.
            W and I have been talking on and off. He contacts me…I contact him. Yesterday was the first day I contacted him since I got back from Florida (5 days). I hit the send button, put donw the phone and it was vibrating. Scared me it was so fast. We are doing lunch next week. He will be gone most of April with the military and if his orders are expanded will be gone thru August.
            I was really surprised at this reaction to my “dinner/movie date”. He never asked who I was going with so I never said. Are We not allowed to DATE others? (if it was a guy) What are the rules for that?
            How do you know MRN got jealous after escape?
            Catch me up on your life. I am hoping that once HG gets caught up, there is something out there from CIF. Worried about her.

          9. SMH says:

            Kim e, Sorry FL was a bust! Did you at least get to the beach? You are allowed to date whoever you want. MRN never said anything about that except that if I met someone, we would cross that bridge when we came to it. I never told him about any of my dates. I would just tell him about things I was doing with friends, work, etc. I can’t say how I knew he was jealous – it was complicated. Depends on how they express themselves, right? And what you are used to and how that changes in the moment. But of course it isn’t truly jealousy of the thing you are doing. It is jealousy that your attention is on something or someone else. My exH was like that too.

            Who was your dinner/movie date with? Did W ask who you were with in FL? Sounds like you are handling things with him alright – not going overboard or getting too attached or e-tethered. Do you feel the same level of attachment? I think it will be good for you if he is gone for long periods.

            Me, well, I met someone within days of poking my head above the parapet. HG will be pleased to know that he is Norwegian. I will refer to him as Odin. We’ll see how it goes as he’s under my testing conditions right now. He’s away for the next week at a conference and where he lives, which isn’t London. He’s very transparent and I am able to google him. We had a really nice evening out. Tapas, lots of wine, fooled around a bit to make sure we were compatible. Haha. I have another one (Scottish) texting me but he seems to not follow through – he’s just texted and apologized because HE makes a plan and then flakes/falls ill. We did talk on the phone and had a great conversation, so I am willing to give him a chance. We are on for Wednesday now but I am not holding my breathe. I told him only pencils, no pens, for him. And then I was supposed to meet someone yesterday, but I could not remember which one he was. lol. So did not go. Right now I have four messages and am afraid to look at them…Smooches!

          10. Kim e says:


            Hello I am playing this time different. I know I am not going to win but this time around I will not be the meek mild yes…ok…anything you say girl. If I dont like something, I am stating it. If I want something I am stating it. Not tiptoeing around. (I know big talk…LOL) But shit.
            If I am going to do this at all I have to do it as ME!!!! I am deep down in side…ok manybe not that deep….a bitch. And I want what I want when I want it. My N traits are strong on that. I turned into a mushy mouse with W. Not any more. Maybe I am finally getting pissed and this is how I need to git the situation and me to where I need to be to say F it. Our conversation regarding lunch and sex stopped when I told him I wasnt going to beg him and if he did not want to see me anymore to just let me know. He came back with, I am just rying to figure out how to fix it. He will get no reply to that.
            LIke I said before, I know things have changed and maybe it is like you said before, he has no intention of seeing me again. I will just have to see how far I will let him push me before I snap.
            I will be back after I cool down.

          11. SMH says:

            Hey Kim e, How are you doing? Cooled down yet? Did he figure out how to ‘fix it’? I think it’s good to get angry. That is what ended it between me and MRN. Anger on my part. That is coming back to yourself, so I think what you have written here is healthy!

            I have started this thing with Odin (the Norwegian). The chemistry was like a bomb went off – like nothing I have felt with anyone since I met MRN. But C19 has now gotten between us and he has to work from home 2 hours away, so we are waiting for things to calm down. I am not worried – if it is meant to be, it will be.

            Does Chicago have any C19 cases yet? I’ve made my own mask as there aren’t any to be had in the shops, and am armed with plenty of hand gel, zinc and what have you.

            Let me know how you are! Smooches!

          12. Kim e says:

            Hey SMH………I am ok. I woke up sometime….might have been asleep and my brain was talking to me….and in a very calm logical manner I said to myself. This will never change, there is not a future, he is married block him. I felt so calm and at peace when I heard it and then I went back to sleep
            When I did get up, I reached for my phone to block him (yes HG to delete his number also) and my ET said WWWOOOOAAAAAHHHHHH……what are you doing !!!!!! I hesitated for a second and did it anyways. My peaceful feeling went away and now my ET is screaming at me. But Fuck it. I am done. Hope his orders came thru to be gone for 4 – 6 months. that would make it alot easier.
            After W & my last conversation due to HG’s teachings, I could see the manipulation all over the text. I was going to play the “I will just ignore his texts” game but why.

            SO….did you do the N test on Odin? I dont mean HG’s…I mean yours…LOL. I am happy and excited for you. Just remember what HG says about all N’s act different so his approach might be different from MRN.
            Otherwise…….knock your socks off.
            C19 has closed ALL the Illinois schools, all the Chicago museums, food runs happening in stores. I worked from home Thursday and Friday. I have to go in Monday but then I am at home until I guess further notice. (could be a blessing in disguise as all the workday triggers will be gone) There are cases in Chicago. I have not heard of any in the suburb where I live.
            I still have not decided if the beer virus as I call it is really as bad as they make it out to be, if it is all media driven, or if it just got out of hand because our government SUCKS!!!!
            Take care and keep in touch.

          13. HG Tudor says:

            Use this interruption to harness no contact away from triggers and fill your boots and mind with material from the knowledge vault

          14. Kim e says:

            HG. Need to convince myself I need not be guilty for doing this. Seems each time I block it is harder on me than easier

          15. HG Tudor says:

            You do not need to convince yourself. Reduce you ET through no contact and it will not be able to corrupt your empathic trait of guilt.

            Also, HG decrees you need not feel guilty and I am the law.

          16. WokeAF says:

            I kept a tally each day then each week I was NC
            At one month I was proud and every week was a win
            I’m at 1 year, 3 months TOTAL NC from Narcoholic now.

          17. Kim e says:

            WAF. Congrats. Last time I kept track of weeks (21) and then crumbled.
            Right now I feel guilty like I need to say sorry I am not doing this any longer. But sheriff HG says I am not allowed. 😂😩😂😩🍷

          18. WokeAF says:

            Well ultimately, I Suspect anyone who comes here regularly and reads HG’s stuff eventually just gets BORED with the narc’s shit. It loses its allure/ its not some big passionate affair- it’s sone big adult toddler of a tool with no empathy who’s stringing us along at best and completely fucking our life up at worst. The first few NC’s might not “take” but – you really can’t go BACK to the full illusion anymore. You snap out of the dream- and then even if you fall partly back asleep- you can’t fully forget you’re dreaming.

          19. Kim e says:

            WAF. So true. The illusion is dimmed. I get tired of pretending I don’t know what’s up.
            My addiction is just going to have to pull up it’s big girl panties and fucking go away
            Stay strong

          20. SMH says:

            lol Kim e, Pull up its big girl panties. WaF is correct. Can’t unsee it once you see it. Smooches from self-isolation (HG, please keep the blog open so we don’t all go nuts).

          21. Kim e says:

            Hello to my life on Sunday. Bored. No motivation. Watching the brain dead tube. Cant concentrate on the book I have been wanting to read. ENOUGH ALREADY!!!! I need to focus on positive….not negative.
            It is a quiet day at my house. Candles burning as usual. Some Blood Orange incense. Watching NCIS. I have rented 21 Bridges for this afternoon. Working from home will absolutely drive me nuts. I hate it. I need people around Hope it is not for too long.
            Nothing new on the ET front. It is still screaming at me and I am telling it to shut up. Very tired and I know that is part of this withdrawal for me. Sad so it is easier to sleep then sit around and think about it.
            Thinking about going to the gym but like yous aid with the beer virus is it worth it. I am going to have to go this week a couple times just so I dont lose my sanity.
            Kathi has self quarantined as a guy she works with has been tested. She is waiting to hear about his results, but doesnt want me visiting just in case. She will be working from home for the foreseeable future also as her lungs are still not really any thing to be played with after her cancer.
            Sorry to ramble. Needed to “talk”…..

          22. SMH says:

            Hi Kim e,

            My friend with lung cancer had to get tested and hers came up negative. I hope Kathi’s colleague’s does too.

            I have had the same sort of day as you, minus the ET, which is basically non-existent now! I am just focused on what I have to do this coming week. I’d have preferred to go to work too because two weeks of isolation is a bit much, but I am also finding that one can get used to anything and there are plenty of people wanting to go on dates! If sleeping helps you, then sleep. I’ve actually been going to bed super early because the online stuff is exhausting. Stayed up a bit later last night, but not by much.

            Today I did laundry – had to go out for that – and got some prophylactics to protect vital membranes (don’t want that shit traveling to my lungs). Talked to a friend, texted with my son, went on FB, watched the news, made dinner, and poof went the day.

            I ended up freezing my gym membership rather than canceling it. We’ll see how things are in a month – also whether I will be able to get home when I need to since the airlines will all go out of business! I might have to swim! These times are trying in all ways.

            Tomorrow will be better for you because at least your mind will be occupied. If you had not deleted W, you’d just be anxious waiting for him to contact you. It would be worse. You did the right thing. Smooches!

            P.S. Write as much as you want. As long as HG puts it through, I will answer!

          23. SMH says:

            Kim e, I now have dates on Tuesday and Friday. I could also have one on Thursday but I don’t really want it and don’t know how to get rid of the guy nicely, but I will figure it out! Odin had better hurry back!

          24. Caroline-is-TeamOdin says:


          25. SMH says:

            lol Caroline (CITO) – luckily, I have pictures but I also want to have fun! Things are changing so rapidly with the beer virus – they will cut rail service, for example – that it could be next year before I see him again!

          26. Kim e says:

            SMH & CIF
            Way things are going I might not see anybody til next year with all this working from home stuff 😂😂😂
            Both of you be careful out there❤️💋💋💋

          27. SMH says:

            Caroline, Odin had me in stitches today for hours. Really funny and clever. I am team Odin now for sure. But still, no idea when we will see each other. They’ve now shut down most public transportation and we are all more or less in quarantine. The tsunami is about to hit.

          28. Caroline-is-fine says:

            Yep, those cute-funny-witty Norwegian men💓 Enjoy him, even if not in-person for now.🙂 You’re in London now, right? I know you are already – but just a reminder to take extra good care of yourself. 💞When is/was it that you were supposed to return to NY? (if too private to put on here, I understand).
            P.S. I lost some of my replies on this thread, and it’s scrolling oddly to locate, but I hope to eventually reply back to them…I read your last one, Lorelei~and also got your sweet note, WiserNow~thank you❣

          29. SMH says:

            Good advice as always, CIF! I will enjoy it as long as it lasts. I am in London until June or July. It’s all up in the air now but it means there is some hope of normalcy returning before I have to leave. I already told him we’d see each other next year, though he disagreed. We’ll see who is right! Luckily, I am not getting any older :). xo

          30. Caroline-is-fine&fierce says:

            That sounds like something to look forward to…for what it’s worth, it sounds like a pretty healthy interaction between you two, so far. My intuition is pretty damn fierce (just being real), so I often have a very good/true feel for people. 💙 It sounds good thus far, sugar…we’ll see if this Norwegian lives up to my expectations on treating you right/being cool enough to keep your attention.😉

          31. SMH says:

            Thank you again for the vote of confidence, CIF! I am very sure that our interactions have been healthy, which is a testament to HG’s teachings. The worst that can happen is we run out of things to say, which is understandable as we do not know much about what we have in common. If he is anything like my son’s father, who is from a similar European background, he is well read, low key and not ego driven. For now just keeping it light and not having any expectations.

            I read your creme de menthe story. Made me laugh. But really you should not be visiting anyone. I have been trying to impress upon my US network the importance of social distancing. If you need to see someone, meet them outside, even for a drink! xo

          32. Caroline-is-fine says:

            No worries, SMH…we did the social distancing, on her back porch area (she lives next door), and even the glasses and drink were done in freakishly sterile way…I’m being practically obsessive about not getting ill, especially for my young one with me.💝 We have no cases in our county yet…but we all know it’s coming. Thanks for the concern~love ya for it.💕

          33. SMH says:

            That’s good to hear, CIF. I feel like the socially distancing police. Glad you are on the ball, unlike someone else I know! (Kim e, talking to you!) Smooches!

          34. Caroline-is-fine says:

            Thanks…I’ve got a big practical/cautious aspect to my personality, so yes – it’s Miss Kim you may need to rein in – not me🤭.
            Go Girl, on your planking goal (fun!)…I don’t mean this in a rude way (meaning not personal against HG), but I don’t desire to see the inside of his house, but if that’s the prize that motivates you/Kim…then go for it! (Can he even show that though? Seems like it may risk blowing his cover).

          35. SMH says:

            CIF, It wasn’t my idea and I don’t follow HG on IG (not on IG) but I would definitely be interested in seeing inside his house. I think you can tell a lot about a person by their home. I am also motivated by the fact that Kim e is doing this with me. I also have some friends on FB doing it. We’ll all be in better shape when this is over.

          36. Lorelei says:

            I love the statement “Toddler of a tool..”

          37. SMH says:

            Hey Kim e, So, W, well, I am proud of you for deleting him. Please don’t un-delete him. The thing is, as you know, with or without him it is going to be painful but without him there is hope, while with him there is not. I think because you managed to do a fairly long period of NC it will be easier this time but I am sorry that your ET is messing you about right now. Take HG’s advice and use the materials here at least to distract yourself and hope that W leaves fairly soon for a good long time. It might indeed be a blessing in disguise for you to work from home to avoid the triggers.

            As to whether the beer virus (haha) is bad or not, take it from me this side of the pond that it is or has the potential to be. However, I already went shopping today and had a coffee in a cafe. Lots of people were out and about. There is a case at my gym, so I am quitting the gym. I went the other day and was appalled at their lack of sanitary measures. They’ve allegedly cleaned up their act but what’s a few months away from the gym?

            Odin, well, I can tell he is not an N. I didn’t see MRN for a few weeks after we first met either because he was away on a work trip. So far, Odin’s behavior has been entirely different than MRN’s, but very balanced. In other words, while MRN disappeared (huge red flag), Odin stays in touch but not obsessively. Whether he is everything else I would want is another question. I knew Oyster Man was not an N but I also knew that he wasn’t right after he sent me two dozen emails in the space of a few days. The Scotsman is not an N either but our date was nothing to write home about! The N part is just the first step. Smooches!

          38. Caroline-is-fine says:

            Sorry to interrupt (I’m heading out, so it’s just a brief one)…A non-narc who is Norwegian? You *know* I am upvoting that one! I ❤Norwegian men. They’re in my family, of course…they’re smart/witty (dry humor)…well-read/distinguished…kind/generous, while sometimes a bit reserved, especially in the beginning, with their emotions (but in a cool & paced way, not a narcy way)…open-minded/good listeners…okay, I’ll stop now — I am way biased. They are also often very darn cute though. Yes, I’m stereotyping, but sometimes it holds true.😉

          39. SMH says:

            CIF, Your enthusiasm made me laugh! Yes he is nice looking. Also a runner, so in good shape (important!). Tall and slim – my type. Dresses well. He does seem kind (checks in a lot) and he is direct (which I like). I am not sure of the humour but he looks exactly like a British friend (dry humour) to such an extent that I showed him a picture!! Thanks for your vote and confirming what I am thinking. Still don’t want to get ahead of myself but it’s nice to have someone in mind. Hope all is well with you! xo

          40. Caroline-is-fine says:

            I look forward to how this plays out!😘 So… “The Normal Norwegian”~~how refreshing!🤸‍♀️🤸‍♀️🤸‍♀️🤸‍♀️ (But do pace yourself…unlike that cartwheeling flipping maniac)

          41. SMH says:

            CIF, The Norwegian is several hundred miles away working from home and we are all hunkering down (with no direction from the government, mind you). I don’t think we will see each other for awhile and I am NOT interested in getting virtually involved, so pacing myself is not a problem :). I am going on dates with other people. xo

          42. Kim e says:

            CIF & SMH
            I say SMH is to do cartwheels, back flips and use a hanging chair if need be. I am living vicariously thru her…..

          43. SMH says:

            Kim e, We are on almost total lock down now so there isn’t much living to be had! I do have a date this afternoon but I told him I’d be the one in the pink mask. I suppose we get a coffee if the shops are open and walk around the empty park at two meters distance. I hope we can hear each other!! I don’t think Odin and I will see each other before May, which is just as well to be honest because I am not that excited about getting physical with someone new while this virus is going around. I’d like to come out alive and see my kid again. He is in lock down in another country and my parents in quarantine in yet another country. I hope you are still working from home. Smooches!

          44. Lorelei says:

            SMH—everything is rapidly shutting down if it’s not already. (Banks are open) I will say that the hospital has been eerily quiet due to visitor restrictions. I’ve only done two COVID screenings, and I’d be shocked if they were positive. Are you in the states?

          45. SMH says:

            Hi Lorelei, I am in London. Same happening here – everything shutting down, though the directives are very unclear. But the weather is fine (at least) so I’ll go out later anyway. No testing here unless you get hospitalized or something like that, so no one has any idea of the stats – same as in the US. I saw online that a lot of people are out and about, commuting as usual, but I am working remotely from home. Hope you have masks and other protective gear. I would be surprised if you did not see cases, though I hope you do not!

          46. Kim e says:

            SMH. Every thing pretty well closed here to. Dining inside the restaurant is a no-no but you can order to be picked up or delivered or go through the drive through.
            1st day working from home for real and I forgot a power cord for my monitor and decided a full size keyboard would be nice. One of the guys I work with that is working from the office today goes to my train station. He is going to bring me those items tonight and I will meet him there
            These laptops they give us are ok in a pinch but this is more like a full on face slap. I tried to figure out how to get my desktop home but the uber bill would have been too high
            Nothing else going on. On line dating has been a bust (kidding HG). ET and LT still battling. You would think since I was NC for 4 months before it would be easier this time around. But it is not. SOS😩😩
            Do you and Odin at least check in with each other? I know you don’t want long distance but thought maybe a quick hi had been exchanged
            My boys are ok. Our Alaska cruise is off till next year. As is possibly my Vegas trip. And one of the ladies going to Vegas…her mom had a massive stroke yesterday.
            Gotta get something to eat. Lunch time here
            Smooches 💋💋💋

          47. SMH says:

            Hi Kim e, Yes, we check in but I’d rather not too much (we don’t too much) because I am wary of getting into some meaningless long distance thing. We only met once and I know how that can go. You build a fantasy up in your head. Would have been fine had we seen each other again when we were meant to but who knows how long it will be now. If/when we do, we’ll take it from there. So that’s on hold for now. I went on a date tonight with someone else. The guy was very nice and funny but no chemistry there for me. He texted me a million times after we parted but I couldn’t really get into it. No touching of course!

            Sorry it is not easier for you. Normally during a time like this I would have thought about MRN a lot but he hasn’t even crossed my mind until this minute. I can’t conjure him up anymore.

            It’s late here but I’ll write more tomorrow. Hang in there with your computer too! Smooches!

            P.S. My niece’s wedding had to be postponed for a year. Life is on hold but glad your boys are okay!

          48. Kim e says:

            SMH……I get the not wanting the long distant thing. And the other is a no brainer. So I guess no vicarious for me today.
            Working from home is a different world. I might not socialize with my co-workers but at least there are people to talk to. I am going into my office next Tuesday as I need to test something that we normally dont do in our office. But if they end up closing some of our site locations we have to be able to do the process in pour office.. By Tuesday I will be stir crazy anyway. Maybe I will stop by W’s house and say hi on my way to work…LOL
            This NC thing really surprises me about how the ET causes me actual withdrawal. I crave… I used to smokes. Who knew. So bizarre.
            That sucks about your niece’s wedding.
            My one son can work from home. The other can not and there is no way he can be 3 – 6 feet away from people. Fingers crossed he is ok. I texted with him 3 days ago and all is ok.
            Time for wine, cheese and crackers. Maybe 2 wines…LOL

          49. SMH says:

            Kim e, Good timing! We (Odin and I) actually had a lot of fun today but I had to put a stop to it because I was worried I was going to send a message meant for him to someone else (I have to use WA for work as well as for personal). So I am practicing phone abstinence now. He seems convinced that we will see each other soon, though now he has to work from home at least until the end of the month. I am not so convinced because I am told by other sources that the army will be occupying London tomorrow. I guess I will know more when I wake up! This is such an absurd time to be living.

            Your son who cannot work from home will probably be fine because he is young. But he still needs to worry about passing it on. I just had this talk with my son tonight when I called him and he was at a friend’s. That age group doesn’t get it. So do ask him to be careful about his interactions with older people. That’s my public health message for the day!

            I went out for a walk after my day at home – it was much quieter than yesterday. Tomorrow I have a few things to get done before everything closes down and we are under martial law or whatever is going to happen. It is feeling a bit ominous and I just realized that no one knows where I am – only one friend – because I never gave my new address to anyone. I’d better do that!

            So you hang in there and do not, I repeat do not, go by W’s house to say hi (I know you’re kidding). Your ET will calm down. Give it time. Smooches!

          50. Kim e says:

            Not sure why W has orders fro April and possibly thru August but I have this gut feeling it is all going to be cancelled. Deployments have been cancelled and he is an instructor so I am not sure. I need him to be gone at least until August for this to be easier on me. WTH……..
            Other than that, nothing new.
            I have another feeling that my youngest is going to get laid off or sick and I will have to send him my check from the government. Which is fine with me
            I feel very lucky that I have a job and can work from home. And I have toilet paper and kleenex…LOL

          51. SMH says:

            Kim e, How would you know if his deployment were to be canceled? I know it would be helpful if he were gone as it was a huge help to me when MRN moved but prepare for the scenario that you might know (and shouldn’t ask!). How is your ET doing? It seems a bit lower than a few days ago.

            I hope your son can stay solvent but good that you can help him. Amazing how things can be humming right along and then boom, it all goes tits up. I couldn’t find paracetamol anywhere today, never mind toilet paper or tissues (but have plenty of those).

            I met this guy on the dating site – an immunologist. He’s been traveling in Asia and Australia and I am not interested in him romantically but we have been carrying on an email correspondence about all sorts of weighty things and he keeps me pretty calm about Covid-19 and the state of the world in general.

          52. Kim e says:

            SMH. I would not have to contact to know if he is home. I can tell by the car situation in him driveway. My ET is pretty good. I think not going downtown has helped. Not a lot of triggers in my house ( just a couple) Mostly keeping mind busy helps
            Some ass that I work with asked me to do something today on our software. I don’t feel comfortable doing it so I talk to my boss. He tells me if you don’t feel comfortable don’t do it. Contact Jason for his permission. I send J an email. I do a work around for the time being so business doesn’t stop. I explain in my email what I did and why I did it telling that if and when I get permission from J to make the change the way ass wants it I will do it and update all

            WELL….ass thinks he will pull rank on me and demands that I do it without J’s permission. He must not have read the memo that says Kim doesn’t work for you sss and she does not do well with demands so fuck off
            Other than that the day has been slow
            Smooches 😂🍷💋

          53. SMH says:

            lol Kim e, Glad your ET has improved. Getting out of your routine has surely helped. Don’t look at his driveway! I am trying to be more cooperative than usual since everyone is in a tizzy here about how to suddenly work from home. My feeling is that if it gets done more or less properly, that’s a plus! Staring to refer to all of us as Zoombies… In better news, it is supposed to be nice this weekend so a park is on my radar (I am trying to walk a few miles every day). London parks in the spring are a thing of wonder. Funny how suddenly the smallest things – a walk in the park – become so exciting! I did go out today all wrapped up. Supermarket didn’t have what I needed so I ended up in this small, smelly, crowded shop to buy bleach. Probably did myself in but got called ‘love,’ which always makes me smile. Smooches!

          54. Kim e says:

            SMH. Chance of W’s wife parking next to me at a grocery store? 💯
            I got my stuff in my car and got out of there ASAP

          55. SMH says:

            Kim e, Good idea to do that anyway – social distancing! Even if W were still in your life, it wouldn’t be a good idea to get intimate with him. Only people who have been living together should be boinking right now!

          56. Kim e says:

            SMH. LOL. From parking next to me to boinking!!! That was quite a jump you took there. May I ask how you got there?🤯

          57. SMH says:

            Kim e, Because I’ve been thinking about it myself?? Even if Odin and I were in the same city, I don’t think it would be a good idea?? Something like that! hahaha

            Hope your weekend has been going well. I went out to run errands, made spaghetti sauce with all the droopy veggies in my fridge, and a friend is driving over later with my TV. We will go for a walk six feet apart. I might take some wine with me in an insulated cup with a lid but I won’t be able to share it, so maybe not. I threw some in the spaghetti sauce though. Smooches!

          58. Kim e says:

            SMH. ok. I am completely lost. Your horney meter must be on overload. I talk about W’s wife’s car and you go to boinking. I ask how you got there and you reply Odin. Are you sure he is not a N and you are falling? You seem obsessed……just checking 💋

          59. SMH says:

            Kim e, My ET is very low and I think one can use one’s own anxiety meter to tell whether someone is an N. Odin is not. I would like to see him but it doesn’t make me anxious in the least. Right now, I cannot see anyone (well, a friend did come over last night but we stayed outside). I think I am being very logical. Here we are also much more aware of social distancing – that’s the point I was trying to make. You mentioned W’s wife and I responded that it is good you are not around W because you’d have a higher chance of catching C19 or passing it on to him. I have friends who are just beginning to show symptoms or their family members are, or they think they already had it, so it is very real to me.

            Speaking of Ns, this morning I got into a chat with a friend’s bf on FB. I didn’t know who he was at first because I am not friends with him. The chat was completely innocuous – # of ventilators in Germany, that sort of thing – but suddenly he private messaged me. I responded because he was a friend of hers, and then he came onto me and told me not to tell her! I am just minding my own business stuck in my tiny flat! Maybe he is an N.


          60. HG Tudor says:

            Early indicators :-

            1. Sense of entitlement
            2. Boundary violation.
            3. Triangulation.
            4. Assertion of control
            5. Isolating behaviour.
            6. Facade Management

          61. SMH says:

            Thank you, HG. Odin has none of those indicators at all. I know what they all feel like because MRN had ALL of them, though of course I wasn’t aware back then.

          62. Kim e says:

            SMH. Well that was weird. Typing away and that is where the comment went….away
            Don’t mean to sound negative regarding you and O. Just pretty much negative in my mind these days. I defer to your judgment with him and have to realize you have been “free” a lot longer than me. Hope I did not offend
            Didn’t even think about W when I saw the car. Ok… a very obscure way. I pondered hanging around until she came out and having a chat with her. But I felt very anxious and just wanted to get the hell out of there. I am sure he was not with her as he only ever uses his vehicle. Strange occurrence 😄😄😄

          63. Kim e says:

            SMH. Sorry. Replied to soon.
            Sorry HG.
            I would say the 2nd guy is a N.
            How is your friend that has the suicidal friend?
            ET up and down these days. My LT has had numerous talks with it and so far has kept it at bay. Tuesday I am going into the office. Should be interesting to see exactly how much my day to day routine really effects my ET.
            No plans for today….or the next how ever many. Maybe FaceTime some people as to not go crazy.
            I do also have a massage scheduled for next Saturday in my house. Not sure what going to do with it.
            Cold here today. In the 20’s. And rain most of the coming week. Sounds like my life lately 😀😀😀😀😀
            Smooches 💋💋🥃

          64. Lorelei says:

            Weather is nice here too! I just can’t wait to get though a few more nights and be off work from “circus relief”
            for awhile. I like the visitor restrictions. I had someone argue with me last night and he told me he didn’t like how I said no—gone. I should have brought him home and catered to his barbaric antics perhaps. I don’t think he gets the top bunk in the prison suite.

          65. Narc noob says:

            Hello SMH, just read through your dialogue with Kim e. Seems a few have been gone but now back again. Just wanted to say hi.

            The worst part about HGs site for me is the lack of connection. I know the rules are here for a reason – I have the N trait of not wanting to follow the rules, though.

            Good luck with your dinner dates ❤

          66. HG Tudor says:

            The lack of connection is for your safety.

          67. SMH says:

            Hi Narc noob! Thank you for stopping by! It’s lovely to see you. How are you?

            I know what you mean but I also understand why HG does it. I used to get a bit panicky but I don’t anymore. I think that’s a healthy sign for me. Also, we know we can always count on HG to be back. Hopefully, he left instructions in his will locked in a vault somewhere for if he suddenly passes away!

            I will be reporting on my dates for everyone’s amusement :). I now allegedly have one with the Scotsman on Wednesday night. He seems to get my sense of humour but I am not sure that Odin does. OTOH, I have great physical chemistry with Odin (don’t know yet about Scotsman). Trying to figure out what’s important to me and make sure that I get it. Willing to compromise but not as much as I once was!

          68. Violetta says:


            What? Wait. HG isn’t immortal?

          69. SMH says:

            hahaha Violetta, he only thinks he is.

          70. Renarde says:


            Just reading about your two dates.

            Be very careful with Scottie. Am getting a ungood vibe from him. Hope I’m wrong!

            Do please update us!

          71. SMH says:

            Ha Renarde, OK. I will keep that in mind. Thanks for looking out for me!

          72. Caroline-is-fine! says:

            OMG…I emailed HG today…and am finally able to post a comment! Sorry about where this lands. I’m doing very well, Kim…no worries❤…but tons going on…holy cow. It’s still tech-shaky on my end, so I’ll be back again when I can. I’m grateful just to get this message through.

            XO, Caroline
            P.S. To Lorelei: *I* LOVE being an Empath! (answering from another thread, where you say being “normal” is better/ask a question). There is NO downside to being an Empath, once you are centered & have boundaries). SO much good comes (for yourself & others) from being an Empath. I would never want to be anything other than an Empath!

          73. Kim e says:

            CIF. I am not liking the comment you left for mommypino regarding N moving closer. Not liking it at all. Please be careful. Don’t be flipped about it.
            Check in when can.
            Keep your Viking girl alive

          74. Caroline-is-fine says:

            How goes it? I saw your comment on another thread (can’t remember which one)…where you said you were feeling alone. I’ve been having all kinds of tech issues – or I would have replied to you there. I understand where you are at…
            The thing is – and there’s really no way around this, Kim – the narcissist is not going to make you feel secure/special…he just can’t. So when you re-engage, you may feel the thrill that you could draw him back to you…but the price to pay is in his push-pull & non-sustaining behavior. His aims are different than yours…so there is no sustained joy or peace.

            I know that you know the deep-down answer: It can’t work. You either get out now…or get out later…but it’s the pain & anxiety that’s the price you’ll pay, so please keep that aspect in mind. I’m here if you need me.💜

          75. WokeAF says:

            When I needed to stop drinking, I set the intention to WANT to want to stop.
            Then when that happened- and I wanted to stop, I got help and succeeded.

            Wanting to leave the narc can be too big a step. Asking the powers that Be for help to WANT to want is a good start.

          76. SMH says:

            Hi CIF and Kim e, Just checking in. I have been doing a virtual workshop for the past few days and can’t wait to get offline when done, so I have not been on here. Weekend! Hope you are both doing well! Smooches!

          77. Caroline-is-fine says:

            Hi, SMH…nice to see you pop up…Stay well.💙

          78. Lorelei says:

            Thank you for the thoughtful reply Caroline. I maintain my stance on being displeased by the revelation though that my problems have been primarily centered on a particular disposition. So, I can’t be overly happy about it! That is not to diminish the view of positives others experience.

          79. Caroline-is-fine says:

            I do understand what you’re saying. I know you’ve had painful experiences with narcissists, and I most assuredly do not negate any of that. 🤍

            I do believe understanding narcissism & how you’ve gotten entangled – sorting through the knowledge base here – can, in due time, bring the reflection, growth & changes that can set your spirit free even more…no, you’ll never be happy about things/people who brought you great pain/confusion/harm (nobody would), and it IS hard to accept/move through it all, piece by piece (ups & downs)…but I just want to encourage you that you’ll continue to move through your stages of healing — and more growth & strength will inevitably come with it, which is what ultimately brings more joy. The tough process of healing/growth/change is like a fight toward more inner peace – as restore yourself, it’s like a wellspring of water begins to trickle out, until it overflows, which then flows to support & comfort others more too — so you can end up feeling & being *more* — not less, because of all the hard work you did to move through the difficulties. You *will* become even stronger – and not in a way where you need to give up the best parts of yourself. You can appreciate those empath traits all the more – but with more wisdom, on who you allow to receive them.🙂

            The other thing I think that helps to keep in mind is that nobody in this life (that I know of!) escapes pain, stress or trials (maybe even traumas)…whether an empath/normal or narcissist. Yes, there are those who unfairly cause others some of those harmful things, like narcissists, but their plight has its own set of a quite unfortunate makeup, where they can’t know/experience some quite wonderful aspects that we can…so I guess I’m of the “rise above” mindset, which maybe has helped me some, with various difficult things I’ve coped with in my own life, whether because of being an Empath — or not particularly having anything to do with that…I just try to accept what was/is that is outside myself – which I can’t control…and try to be very real with myself — to make the best out of what remains that I *can* control. Being true to myself & loving all the good parts of me is a big part of my perspective. It’s not about everything in life going my way, which is impossible…it’s more about me *finding* my way. My life is not someone else’s story…it’s my story. So I keep working to create that story. Yes, some gnarly things and people have entered my story at times – but it’s still my story, and I want to live it in full. Nobody can take that away from me…just like nobody can take that away from you either.🤍

            Anyway, just wanted to share more, on how I think on some aspects…but I definitely hear you – how you feel & where you are at…be very patient & kind with yourself on your own journey~& be proud of where you’re at now.🤍

          80. Lorelei says:

            Caroline— a very sweet and thoughtful reply. I think my main irritant is that I continue to be sought by these individuals and it appears there is truly an instinctual lure. It makes me furious. My thoughts feel defeated at times by the struggle to be more rarely impacted. I know logically that for what I came from that at least for today I appear much better than someone else with a similar background. It could have gone differently. I’m educated, I can fit into environments that no one really prepared me for, my mother was capable but too exhausted to parent. My father was just a mess. I had no support, repeated sexual abuse, had to learn how to navigate the world mostly alone. I recognize there is a particular strength which renders potential in this being able to allow continued improvement. It’s irrefutable that these are facts. These moments allow for hope. I honestly think I was a very high suicide risk in the summer and I knew not dare breathe a word as to avoid a police officer at the door. I am not one to entertain such thoughts—they were almost intrusive. It was due to the mountain appearing too difficult but I’m the only decently positioned parent the kids have. My mother was ill—she would have been crushed. Just the sexual misconduct alone stunted so much. (I promise it’s not a pity party) It is a reflection of the enormous impacts and frustration with the chronicity of a “recovery” that I had no idea would be so involved. I mean HG keeps a fun blog and diverse offerings of education. It’s interesting. It’s not all bad per se. But normals don’t tend to be targeted. They also have pain yes, but one awesome gift has been the freedom of guilt from being angry at the concept of a God. If there is a a God he’s a total cluster fuck by such a poor design. It’s been freeing to have a fuck off mentality which has placed closure on believing in nonsense.

          81. Caroline-is-fine says:

            I believe in God, and he is a constant ray of Light & true direction that has always sustained me…but the topic of faith is not one I speak of much on this site, not because I’m afraid to…but because it must be a very real and inspired & lengthy discussion, giving room with valid points (on both sides), which (to me) also means this site is not the place, as it would do more to turn others off than to do any good, which I am well aware of…so I do not go there – also out of respect for HG’s mission and those deeply hurting who come online. I understand your anger…and we move on, BECAUSE I do understand it, Lorelei…and I also don’t want the disparaging of my faith & my God, who has done nothing but help/sustain & inspire me. So we leave it there. It’s like talking smack about someone you love, who is greatly misunderstood.❤

            I was going to take your other reflections/thoughts one-by-one though, if ok.🙂

            How do you feel “there is an instinctual lure”- specifically, in what way(s) do you feel this/see it play out regularly in your life? And if it is instinctual by most narcissists (their errant makeup/wiring), does it make it *harder* for you to accept that, as opposed to a more premeditated approach? Do you feel ill- equipped to handle a narcissist’s approach toward you, and how is it still difficult for you to repel them, *if* that’s the case?

            Good gosh, that was only your second sentence to me — and ya got all those (above) follow-up questions from me – sorry😂

          82. Lorelei says:

            Caroline—I know we both understand religion as highly contentious potentially when there is a disagreement. I do not have anger—it’s a sense of freedom from guilt of not feeling comfortable aligning with such a warm feeling toward a god that seems to make unusual choices. We both have an entirely different perspective and that is absolutely ok. There are people who have great richness in their lives from faith based pursuits. I too have a great richness from the freedom of feeling I am not quite “on the right path” by being on such a path which is mine. In essence, an equally important path. A feeling of relief.
            The instinctual lure is that narcissists sniff certain people out quite readily. I’m increasingly well equipped to manage it, the instinctual lure concept vs. a pre-meditated one is somewhat nice, because it allows me to know that ultimately I’m equipped to better manage it with knowledge. GOSO is great, but meaning there are other lack of engagement scenarios that are helpful. (Think work related) I will say—their lack of self awareness is becoming repulsive to me—their absolute belief in the conviction of being good people amuses me almost. It is becoming an inherent repellent to their “charm.” Dogs act quite instinctively. I’d never be attracted romantically to a dog! Essentially, narcissists seem about as idiotically driven as dogs. Dogs want food. Narcs want control. Dogs will eat out of garbage to get it. Seems rather rudimentary and gross. Narcs target true victims for kicks (often children)—to get off per se. Seems quite similarly unappealing. At this juncture my interest is more me than them though. Empaths (some) have an equally ridiculous feverish pursuit of being abused. This is also ridiculous. It’s time to bifurcate away from my own instinctual self-defeating behaviors. It is like taking wire cutters to formerly serendipitous alliances.

          83. WiserNow says:

            Caroline and Lorelei,
            Pardon me for butting in… I just wanted to say I enjoyed your comment Caroline. Thank you for your positive words. Being an empath can weigh heavy sometimes and it’s lovely to be reminded of the positive aspects and the power we have to choose our own mindset.

          84. Lorelei says:

            You are absolutely not butting in! Always welcome.

          85. WiserNow says:

            Thank you Lorelei, it’s lovely of you to say that 🙂

          86. Violetta says:

            I believe in God, but I seem to like Him best when I get my way.

            “Daddy, I want it NOW!”


          87. Violetta says:


            “he came onto me and told me not to tell her!”

            I’m no authority on narcs, but I can spot a jackhole at 15 paces. Avoid.

          88. SMH says:

            Totally will avoid, Violetta. I don’t want to get into any scrapes with friends right now so I won’t tell her because who knows how she will react. I had this problem with another very close friend (the current one and I are not that close). A few years ago this other friend’s new husband came onto me at their wedding party in front of my son! It was horrendously embarrassing and shocking. I told the friend because it was then uncomfortable for me to be around them. She was good about it and called him out on it but also made excuses and then he did it again. She and I then had a huge argument over something else – everything was boiling up – and we haven’t spoken for years now. I think she deflected her feelings about her husband onto other issues. Afraid that will happen again and these days, who can afford to lose friends? Not me!

    3. Lorelei says:

      I started a reply and lost it. Creed’s “Love in White” is good stuff. Even the perfume of the narcissist is black or white!

  9. LA says:

    Cloudy And Cogra – Shelf here too – I feel ya’ …My V-Day was horrible. Only some pathetic comfort crumbs in response to a message I sent first…clearly distracted while he send it…and gifted me a “pic”….I’m sure this was while he was getting ready for V-Day with his IPPS who seems to be in respite right now…Then he hoovers me this morning acting like he cares…wtf!!!

  10. Lorelei says:

    If I ever get a non-malign hoover from my ex I may pee my pants in laughter. Unbelievable.

    1. HG Tudor says:

      Sounds like this has to come to pass.

  11. Kim e says:

    SMH. I am ok. Talk later
    Smooches 😘

    1. SMH says:

      Kim e, Thanks for checking in. I hope you are not feeling down. Smooches!

      1. Kim e says:

        Hi. I just wanted to check in again and say I am still ok. Working thru the current situation. I will keep in touch. Thanks for being here.

        1. Caroline-is-fine says:

          I had to reply here to your last comment, as my tech is still way screwy…in fact, to even reply, I had to reduce my Zoom function to 50%…scroll to the top…hit the refresh button…and THEN I could reply, though it’s not guaranteed. I know, it’s nutty!
          I completely understand your concern, believe me. I don’t trust what *he* will do…but I trust myself, and my ET is super low…I feel eerily calm/secure & kind of detached, like a third-party observer – yet I understand that I may be in for some chaos, on his end…if he goes forward with this.
          More later…hope you’re doing okay & protecting your heart from the narc thief. You know I’m not for your continued involvement with W, but I know we all need to learn our life lessons in various ways…like me, for instance – I do what I feel led (like aiding his family) – and will take fallout, like this now…but that’s my decision, so I accept that. We all have to sort it for ourselves — on what we can live with and can’t — what is worth it and is not — when it comes down to it.💜 I’ll be back more when I resolve this Tablet issue, because it’s annoyingly hard to post.☹
          P.S. MP, if you see this…my reply to you is next…who knows what I’ll have to do to accomplish that – stand on my head and sing “My Country ‘Tis of Thee”?😏

      2. Kim e says:

        I fell hard this time. But it feel different than other times. I believe I am being future faked and never was before.
        I took advantage of HG’s offer of 1/2 off all packages and purchased one regarding IPSS’s and how we are ranked and treated. Well that just took me on a trip down another rabbit hole. I am sitting at my desk trying not to cry as I am so upset. I looked at his FB page because at this point in timne my ET is so wild it does not matter… It is locked down tighter than my chastity belt. You can see his profile picture and that is it.
        I have also been meaning to tell you that I found one of those “filtered” friends on FB messanger back from June. And today when I searched for himon FB,there was also a W….with no profile picture just like the one that was filtered on my page.
        So I am going to do a consult with HG and hope that this time I can maintain. My real issue is like I said before, I read and I listen over and over and it is like it is not about me. It is about someone else. I cant relate.
        Hope all is good with you. What is new? I have missed our chats………gonna cry again. gotta run

        1. SMH says:

          Aw Kim e, Glad you checked in but I am sorry to hear all of that. I know I can say ‘don’t look’ but it won’t do any good. You will look anyway. I do know what you mean about feeling like the IPSS stuff isn’t about you/us. I think the problem is our own narc tendencies of thinking we are somehow special. But sadly we are not, at least not to narcs. MRN has been quiet since October, as far as I can tell. I did get a long filtered message a week or so ago, but the writing was not his. He must have other potent fuel sources by now. It all feels like it happened to someone else.

          I am not surprised that you found a filtered message. Did it say anything more than ‘hi’? When will you do the consult and in what way do you think that W is future faking? Has he mentioned seeing you but you haven’t seen him yet? As usual, lots of questions from me!

          Nothing much new here. I am content and busy. Family visiting last night – excellent Japanese food. Working a lot and damned hard! Going to France on Friday for a wild party with a menu to die for, so I can’t eat for the next few days. No major narcs in my life at the moment (present HG company excluded). I am thinking it would be nice to meet someone but what are the chances that this someone will be the right person for me? Next to nil, so why bother? Ha.


          1. Kim e says:

            The filtered message said nothing and I think that is because if some one is blocked it will show the attempt to contact BUT will not show if anything was written. Also it said it was too old to reply to. BUT there was no picture just like the dumby FB acct set up by W….. Just one of those things that we get a gut feeling about knowing it was them and they know that we know it was them and the circle goes round and round. I do find it interesting if it truly was him because we NEVER connected on FB. But like HG says, they will try any avenue.
            You are probably in France as I am at work typing this. Hope you had a great time and have some stories to share upon your return. Dont give up on “the one”…..makes my heart ache thinking there is no one for me.
            I think I was Future Faked cuz we have talked 4 times. He brought up a meal and then I had to go teach a class. When I next ask about if he was still interested ( 2 days later) I got probably next week. He never said that tome before. He always set a time and date then and there. Maybe after me blocking so many times he feels he has to FF to control me now. Even when I asked about if he was still interested, it was short and sweet and I said ok to lunch. that was at 1015. I turned off my phone as I was on a conference call after and did not want to be bothered. At 1215 I was goin to lunch and turned it back on. To my surprise he had text back at 12. I got back with him and we chatted until 230. He of course just disappeared from the conversation. at 330 as I was walkin gout the door, I text back…..OK, Bye. he replied instantly with the answer to the question I had asked before he stopped answering. LOL
            No plans for the weekend here. Off Monday and have plans from 0630 to 1800. HG included in those plans. I am going sleep good that night.

          2. SMH says:

            Hey Kim e, Sorry I disappeared. I was traveling, as you know, and then slammed with work. Just recovering a bit today. I will check to see what else you have posted, but how did the consult go? Sounds to me like W is doing what we would call ‘stringing you along.’

          3. Kim e says:

            Didnt disappear. I knew you were traveling and having fun without me. I am used to it…..LOL,. Hope you had a great time and forgot about the BS for some time.
            Tell me about your trip. I know it was Paris(?).
            I answered about the consult and W on another comment on this same thread.
            I joined a new gym. and when I say new…it is not even open yet. It opens 2/29. It is a regular gym like the place I left after they fired my PT not like the last one I bought out of which was entirely class based. This one has a theater filled with Treadmills…watch a movie and get cardio in. Spin classes. Women Only area with free weights and machines if I dont feel like dealing with the muscle bound morons. I am going for my assessment 3/3 and will look into personal training at that time. I am pumped. I have missed working out on machines where I feel like I am accomplishing something.
            Dont all N’s string along?

          4. SMH says:

            Kim e, Women only area with free weights is what I would like. Plus more floor room. I don’t take classes and where I am all of the floor room is taken up by classes. I will have to switch gyms too with my move, which is just fine with me!

            My trip seems so long ago now – It’s been a whole week! Another friend was in from Paris on Friday so now I have everyone confused. But the getaway was a lot of fun. Bunch of creatives so you can imagine – endless amusement. Having dinner with one of them this week. Female and just friends, so nothing to get excited about!

        2. SMH says:

          CIF, Oddly, I am unable to reply to directly to you because there are no comments when I hit reply, even though the reply box is there for Kim e.

          Replying to this:

          Interesting. I bet his wife (IPPS) got plenty of STs from him, in whatever forms, poor woman…it makes sense to me he gave you a ST when you became NISS…he was trying to rope you back in, which you smartly did not fall for

          I actually never thought of it that way. To me, it seemed like he’d given up on roping me back because I wounded him right before this and I never had before, despite all of the horrible things I said to him. Regardless, it certainly was not a way to get me back, unless he wanted me to go for the jugular, and not in a nice way!

          I don’t know if he gave IPPS STs either – he had much more insidious ways of manipulating. My exH was the ST champion but he was a Lesser. I think MRN knew he was being childish whereas my exH did not – he did many toddler-like things. MRN did not.

          1. Kim e says:

            CIF and SMH
            “it makes sense to me he gave you a ST when you became NISS”
            Hi ladies,
            This cant make perfect sense because at that point in time in the relationship SMH was already an IPSS. She can not revert back to a NISS…try as she might. Once an IPSS…..always an IPSS. Kinda like herpes……it can be masked but never truly goes away.

          2. Caroline-is-fine says:

            Hi, Kim💜 I can only see a few comments on here right now, but I’ll be back later. Nice to see ya, woman.💜

            SMH: Thank you so much for your help with the comments disappearing for me on here💙…that was weird, huh? I’ll be back later tonight, to reply to your posts❣🤗

          3. SMH says:

            Kim e, Ha. Yeah, I guess I was a SIPSS painted black. It was a weird time – like we were in two different relationships. He was pretty much ignoring my desire to cut contact while I was moving on. Oddly, I missed him today. But it wasn’t a high ET kind of missing.

            How are you? Have you had your consultation yet? Smooches!

          4. Kim e says:

            You were in multiple different relationships…LOL But I know what you mean.
            Like I have said before, it was easier in some ways before HG because we are completely blind to what is going on.
            I am ok. Being a good little DLSIPSS,,,,sounds important doesnt it…LOL. Like a doctor with numerous degrees.
            My consult is Monday. My ET and LT right now are pretty level right now.
            I will be in contact after my consult….good or bad.

          5. SMH says:

            Kim e, Yes, every second was different! Kept me on my toes but I have to disagree that it was easier without HG. Well, I should say that MRN and HG did not really overlap because I did not find HG until right before the final time I saw MRN and there wasn’t enough time to absorb everything. But I would so much have preferred to have found HG years before. I do not think MRN would have lasted nearly as long and I certainly wouldn’t have wasted so much precious time and headspace trying to figure out what the deal was. Take work narc, for instance, I was able to recognize what he probably is because of HG and stop him dead in his tracks. I am so much better off for having done that. I still see him but there is no tension anymore for me because I am in control of how it all goes. Again want to hear about consult but will keep looking! Smooches!

  12. Tired says:


    1) What happens when both the IPPS and the DLSIPSS are both painted black at the same time?

    2) DLSIPSS ignores a texted desperate plea from narc . In that case does the IPPS get some sort of reprieve from being painted black?

    I’ve said before I think the DLS is also a narc, so much of the push pull ignore each other nonsense going on , on both their parts.

    1. HG Tudor says:

      Hello Tired, the answer lies within the Logic Bulletin that you are commenting with regard too.

  13. WokeAF says:

    I have it. Just re-read it, and immediately I knew my MR would go to the kitchen and help serve.
    (Or perhaps an otherwise grandiose gesture- comment loudly on the food to another guest , pointing out how he knows the best recipe for this dish, how his butcher provides the best cut of meat for this dish, or maybe even call out loud into the kitchen to ask a question about what store they buy from)
    Does that mean he’s for sure UMR ?

  14. WokeAF says:

    InterestIng! So not responding immediately wounds , even if it’s a IPSS?!

  15. Supernova DE says:

    2 questions for clarification:
    1. How can I tell if I am painted black and being ignored vs. response being delayed/avoided simply by virtue of being on the shelf (as described in N v S-IPSS blog article)?

    2. So every time (twice a week at least) narc texted me at midnight or 1am and I did not answer (because I was asleep in bed with my husband) but responded in the morning, only to be met with silence and a read receipt, I was painted black and being ignored??? If so, I was black ALOT. I always thought “oh well, guess he was in the mood to talk last night but is busy today”

    Thank you!
    Just purchased the sex tape AP, can’t wait!!

    1. HG Tudor says:

      Hello SDE,

      1. Use this

      2. Your failure to respond wounded the narcissist and painted you black.

      Thank you for purchasing the Sex Tape AP.

      1. Supernova DE says:

        1. I have listened to black and white and still had the question. Perhaps it is the length of time that goes by that determines this. Oh well, it’s not relevant to me anymore!
        2. Thank you, more and more I believe I was a terrible appliance haha.

        1. HG Tudor says:

          Hello SDE,

          I recommend that you listen again as the answer is provided there. If you remain stuck, come back to me.

          1. Supernova DE says:

            Thank you

  16. WokeAF says:

    Ok thx HG!

  17. WokeAF says:

    Hg I tried to ask this on the appropriate post but it disappeared and now I can’t find it

    Is false intimacy with the IPPS restored during respite periods?

    Thank you

    1. HG Tudor says:

      Not always, but usually.

  18. WhoCares says:

    Thank-you, Anm.

  19. Anm says:

    WhoCares, it’s ok, and that was a great comment

  20. Kim e says:

    Tough love is a hard pill to swallow. I have used it before but it has never been given to me. ❤️

    1. Fool Me 1 Time says:

      Sweet Kim e I’ve used it on my children often. I have to say I’ve never had it used on me either. 😘💞

  21. Notme! says:

    That love is coming at you from all directions Kim e
    It’s real, it’s unconditional, it’s affirming, it requires nothing from you and is nothing less than you deserve, lovely lady xx

  22. Caroline-is-fine says:

    Oh dear…sounds like you fell off the NC wagon.😥 I’m sure your emotions are pretty up & down right now. All is not lost. What might be gained, going forward? You have an opportunity to correct course, hon. That’s a better focus for you now…

    I’ve come to think of entanglements with a narcissist as an opportunity to clean up/clear out whatever past emotional baggage (not related to the narcissist) we may still be carrying around with us. Yes, I mean our own (often buried) personal life issues/lessons. So maybe we should look at breaking of NC as our not mastering our own lesson(s) quite yet …and know that our narcissistic entanglement/addiction will keep coming up & around (internally) – and we may succumb in a myriad of ways – until we do learn whatever lesson we need to, for our own healthiness/good. That’s not to say our life lessons are even necessarily things we have done wrong…often it may be how others treated us in the past and then how we chose to react/respond to it — how we took stuff on that was not ours to take. It can be so many different things, and it’s all unique to each of us. Anyway, maybe that’s an area to reflect on for a bit.

    On a practical note, you may have some thoughts on what lowered your resistance (or contributed) to your acting to contact the narcissist. It may help to reflect on that now, and you can gain fresh insight. 💜

    Don’t beat up on yourself, as that does no good & is not what you need, so screw that…instead, figure out now how to move forward – so you won’t stay chained to the past pain & anxiety of this entanglement. He’s a narcissist, doing his narcissist bit. You’re an Empath – so comfort & encourage yourself back out of this now, with deliberate self-love/self-protection. Big hug.🤗

    1. Kim e says:

      CIF. I have wanted to reply to this but couldn’t find it. Yes I fell or should I say jumped off Nic. But I am ok now and will come out the other end ok too
      You are having ex arc issues also I have read. Take care.
      Thanks for the encouragement. Giving it right back to you. You always felt it wasn’t over. But you will be fine
      Smooches ❤️❤️🍷

      1. Caroline-is-fine says:

        Thank you, Kim💜

      2. Kim e says:

        CIF…….how are you doing with the ex? Hope it is under control.

        1. Caroline-is-fine says:

          Thanks, doll…A lot is going on, but I am at peace. I’ll be back on the site when I’ve dug a little deeper, for myself. Sometimes I need to get really quiet, to achieve that.💜
          P.S. Funny tidbit: You’re my purple-heart pal…SMH is my blue-heart pal…MP is my red-heart pal…all for (good) reasons! When I accidentally give you guys the wrong heart color, it’s pretty disheartening! 😂 Someday I’ll explain the colors.💜💙❤

          1. SMH says:

            CIF, 💙💙 Only for you – it takes me such a long time to insert emojis!

          2. Caroline-is-sleepy says:

            And the fact that you would do that for me goes right along with why I chose the blue heart for you!😎
            Gawd, I hate being up this early on a Saturday…getting ready for a hectic day.
            Have a good weekend!

          3. Kim e says:

            Caroline is Fine…….Kinda weird when I hear purple heart I think military and that actually fits me. Cant wait to hear what you reason for it is.
            Hope digging is going well.

  23. SMH says:

    No excuses, Kim e. No excuses!

    1. Kim e says:

      SMH. I can feel the love🙁

      1. Fool Me 1 Time says:

        I believe it is called tough love Kim e! 😘

      2. SMH says:

        Kim e, I think I was mimicking HG. He will give you the tough love. I’ll just give you the love. How has your day been? Up and down or serene? Hope you got a consult in :).

        1. Caroline-is-fine says:

          Hi, SMH💙…and I’ll give you the love — for feeling you needed to give Kim the “tough love.”🥰😎

          1. SMH says:

            Hi CIF, Thank you but I didn’t think I was giving Kim tough love. I probably don’t have the willpower. Plus, my guilt – you know all about that! How has your weekend been? Any new developments (only if you care to talk about them)? I am fine and very busy – no thoughts about MRN at all. Smooches! (that’s for the absent Kim e too)

          2. Caroline-is-fine says:

            I was just joshin’ ya about the tough love (I know your heart’s a marshmallow)…I can’t see all the comments on here right now, but I’ll be back on here later this week, and we’ll catch up!

          3. SMH says:

            CIF, Sorry! Tone sometimes get lost on here! I look forward to catching up later in the week. xoxo

          4. Caroline-is-fine says:

            No need whatsoever to apologize…you did/said nothing wrong❣ Catch up with ya soon. 😘

          5. Caroline-is-fine says:

            Hi, SMH🙂,
            I’m so sorry I’ve not sent you a reply yet…it’s not been going too well, with my nex situation. It’s actually gotten amped up. So I’ve been ill at ease detailing it on here, for several reasons. Let’s just say “obsessed” would not be too strong of a word for how he’s currently behaving. It’s unnerving, as I have no idea what’s coming next. However, the good news is that MP must have sensed this & threw a floatie device out to me today (I picture it as an oversized cute, yellow duckie floatie🐥) — before I went completely under. Through HG, she gifted me a “Stop the Hoovers” file, so she must know how ridiculously “I got this!” I can be, & wisely decided: “Yeah, maybe you really don’t”😉…and graciously gave me this great resource. I am so touched.🥰

            So I’m off to learn more (via MP & HG)…and reflect. I’ll be back when I can.

            I’m very glad you are doing well! 💙I will be doing well again soon…no worries.💙

          6. SMH says:

            CIF, You WILL be doing well again soon, especially with all of the help here. I am sorry nex is putting you through the wringer but you know you have a problem with guilt too – work on that because I am guessing that some of your turmoil is due to those sorts of feelings. I believe you said your nex has been violent, though maybe not with you. Please be careful!

          7. Caroline-is-fine says:

            Thanks, SMH💙 Believe me, this is not a guilt issue I’m wrestling with, at all…instead, he’s freaking me out (just internally — I look like “Josephine Cool” on the outside😎). But no worries, because I will do what I need to do. I still haven’t listened to the hoover audio because my tablet has an audio glitch, but a tech friend is fixing that for me tomorrow. 🙂It’s true – my nex can be aggressive, in various ways. I promise I’m being safe, hon.💙

          8. SMH says:

            CIF, Good to know you have everything under control except for the audio :). Smooches!

          9. Caroline-is-fine says:

            It’s probably a stretch to say I have *everything* under control. Let’s just say I have MYSELF under control…who knows what the crap HE’S doing??😐But that’s how it is with life anyway…we can only really control ourselves.💜

          10. SMH says:

            True, CIF. You can’t control what he does. xo

          11. Caroline-is-fine says:

            Thanks for your kindness, SMH. How have YOU been doing? You give a lot of support to others…I want to know how you are.💙 (As for me, I’ve got my hands full…my nex is taking a dramatic step in trying to win me back…and it’s not going to be an easy situation, at all… I’m equipped with knowledge from HG & my strong intuition…we’ll see how I fare).

            Back to YOU. What’s up?💙

          12. SMH says:

            CIF, All is well with me. Busy with work and no narcs in my life at the moment! I’m getting a bit bored, though, so I might have to start looking for one :). I am glad you have HG and I am sure that with his help, you can handle the situation. I am curious as to what your nex is doing to try to win you back. Though I know you don’t like talking about it, if you feel like spilling the beans, I am all ears! Hugs!

          13. Caroline-is-fine says:

            But you *have* a narcissist to keep you from boredom – His Majesty! 🤴 (😉)
            [As for my situ…not best to detail it on here right now, but if you think of my situation… try to imagine how it could become a much more immediate issue. If you come up with something fairly dramatic/gnarly for me on a much more regular basis – something that makes you think: “Holy ****, Caroline!” – you may be in the vicinity].

            I’ll be ok – really. I’m so glad you’re doing well.🙂 (I’m also VERY happy for you that you weren’t ever an IPPS).

          14. SMH says:

            CIF, But I was IPPS to the previous narc – not the one I mostly write about here (MRN). He was violent too. I went across an ocean to escape him but it took years to fully extricate myself. I did not know what he was at the time but all the classic signs were there – isolation, rewriting history, deflection, constantly wounded, etc. Each time I left he would pout/beg me to come back/promise to get help. Last thing he did, just recently, was to steal money from me but it wasn’t enough for me to chase after it and have any contact with him. If you are going through anything like that, I feel for you (well, I do anyway). MRN came along two months after that relationship ended, so classic double ensnarement here! And I lived to tell about it! You will too! Yes, I have HG, sigh :).

            I imagine your N has decided to move next door to you. Am I close? Smooches!

          15. Caroline-is-fine says:

            I totally forgot about that you were *married* to one! I mean, I knew you were…just forgot for a minute. Yeah, you’ve surely been through it, woman – so sorry. ☹The UMR has never done any revenge/smear/”bad acts” like that toward me. He operates in other “not fun” ways. You’ve really been strong through a lot. You deserve a great guy – or just to be content/free alone (and have good friends), and there’s not a darn thing wrong with that either.💙

          16. SMH says:

            Thanks, CIF. That is the choice – great or not at all! I am fine either way, to be honest as I am somewhat of a commitmentphobe/avoidant. Have you had to tell your partner about nex?

            MRN never did anything overtly bad either but also operated in not so fun ways. It’s just as well, really, since I should not have been in that relationship anyway as he was married. I honestly don’t think about either of them anymore.

            Speaking of friends, where is Kim e? I hope she is okay. xo

          17. Caroline-is-fine says:

            My “current” knows about my “past,” yes. As for Kim, I’m not subscribed to many new threads right now – and I’ve only caught a post or two on the other threads lately, so I really don’t know. I’m sure if you send her a new comment & let her know you’re looking for her/are concerned, she’ll pop on.🙂

            You sound like you’re in a very healthy place – and, pretty much, narc free! Good for you.🙌Besides romantic entanglements, this site is also really good for understanding those with NPD at work & on the friendship level, as you well know (and we’ve chatted on)…and even if others don’t have NPD per se, it’s just helpful to understand more about narcissistic qualities in general (in others, or even ourselves). It gives us greater insight to the best ways to respond to others – and also how not take on other people’s issues. It’s done me a world of good on my self-inflicted guilt issue…I’d say I’m *almost* normal in that area now, as my perspective has changed – for the better. HG’s info & the exchanges here are empowering & clarifying, in so many ways…

            There is one person in my family who is highly narcissistic, and this site’s also helped me get centered on how to deal with her, with firmer boundaries…it’s been effective & liberating. Sure wish she gave silent treatments…but no such luck. Heh.

            P.S. In actuality, the ST is a horrific form of abuse, and it’s not surprising to me that the ST was *not* a big part of my FR with the UMR (he only did a handful of more subtle/quirky forms of ignoring)…it’s not something I’d be able to tolerate…and I don’t beg/run after people – so it just would not have worked well on me.

          18. SMH says:

            CIF, MRN only gave me one ST. That was during the NISS period post-escape and it sent me right over the edge. It’s exactly when I found this site typing why won’t he answer my messages? I am laughing about it now but that is when I went on the warpath.

            You are absolutely correct that this site helps us to find out a lot about ourselves and even moderate our own behavior, including with respect to guilt. I am not as prone to keeping things bottled up and then exploding, for instance. I have an easier time saying what I think and not ruminating.

            I have a Matrinarc myself. The other week she asked me to spend a whole day with her alone. Why? Because I have taken to protecting myself by having other people around when I see her (my sister was the buffer before she died). Matrinarc noticed and went right for the jugular. Funny how people ask one to do things that it is clear one does not want to do, eh? I have spent some time thinking about how to respond in case she does not forget that she asked. It will be something like well, we don’t particularly enjoy each other’s company, or I feel a lot of stress when I am around you because we argue, etc. Things like that. Luckily, we are far apart at the moment so I don’t have to deal with it right away but I was able to examine my own reaction and think about how to protect my boundaries.

            I am glad you told your current about nex so maybe you don’t have to fight that battle all on your own. Men can have pretty fragile egos about exes. I hope he does not!

            I figure if Kim e were on here, she would see her name mentioned. Maybe not? I will try to give her a shout out where she will be more likely to see it.

          19. Caroline-is-fine says:

            You’re cracking me up…

            First funny from you: You went “on the warpath”? I’m a Viking chick. We take that warpath stuff seriously. Just let me know if you need assistance, in the future. I’ve got a shield AND a sword — it’s totally dependent on the behavior of others, as to which one I use. 🤫[Note to larger audience: The bloodthirsty violence just expressed is not real. It’s a joke.] I promised HG that I’d make any bloodthirsty jokes obvious.🤷‍♀️

            Second funny from you: “The other week, she [Matrinarc] asked me to spend a whole day with her alone. Why?”

            Yes! Exactly! WHY????? 🤣

            I’ll come back to the rest of your post later…when I can stop giggling.

          20. SMH says:

            CIF, Now you are cracking me up. I hope to never need assistance from a Viking chick, though I might with Matrinarc.

          21. Caroline-is-fine says:

            I’ll keep my sword sharp. (Note to random people: THIS IS ONLY A JOKE. Do I *really* need to explain that?🙄 But The King says yes…and it’s his site.)

          22. Caroline-is-fine says:

            Ok, I’ve got my “giggle reflex” under control now…so I’m replying to aspects of your last post:
            1) Re: how you came to this site because of your ST…I read this somewhere on the internet – who knows if it’s fact or fiction – that the most common phrase typed by someone entangled with a narcissist was: “Why is he/she ignoring me?”…or variations of that theme. It’s supposedly how people most often learn about narcissism (because of answers they then receive, about the ST & narcissists). I don’t have a hard time believing that at all…makes total sense. The ST would drive most reasonable people bonkers!

            My connection is still kind of wonky…I’ll follow this up (when I can) on the rest of your post.💙 (#2 coming soon).

          23. SMH says:

            CIF, That is really interesting! It actually surprises me. I would have thought it would be something like hot/cold behavior, which I searched a lot at the beginning of the relationship. All I came up with was ’emotionally unavailable,’ which is of course true in a sense, but did not lead me to narcissism. I had discovered narcissism, however, long before I found HG. That was from watching a series called The Fall about a serial killer. One scene reminded me so much of MRN that off I went on an internet journey, and came across Vaknin. Devoured it but it didn’t stick. Because MRN did not give me an ST until the FR was over, I did not find the key. Or maybe I just wasn’t ready until my ET was much lower. That is why I don’t put too much pressure on people struggling to get out. I left five times before my final escape. xo

          24. Caroline-is-fine says:

            Interesting. I bet his wife (IPPS) got plenty of STs from him, in whatever forms, poor woman…it makes sense to me he gave you a ST when you became NISS…he was trying to rope you back in, which you smartly did not fall for😎

        2. Kim e says:

          I knew you were mimicking HG. Just being a smart ass.
          Yesterday was busy doing 3 weeks worth of laundry. I was, I would say serene 96% or the day. The rest was up and down. I would imagine this serene feeling is fake as it is my ET.
          No consult in. Back to square one

          1. SMH says:

            Kim e, I don’t think it’s fake per se. It’s your addiction speaking. You got a hit so you feel normal. Smooches!

            P.S. I did laundry this weekend too – today, in fact – though not three weeks worth!

          2. Kim e says:

            LOL…normal. Not sure I would recognize normal.

            At this point i time I am afraid to say anything for fear of being told it is my ET speaking.
            Just have to take it a step at a time. Not really wanting to talk right now. Just wanted you to know that I had a good weekend. I will reply to all other thread eventually.
            Enjoy work and travels.

          3. SMH says:

            Kim e, You are the one who said it was your ET speaking. I think you have some very good insights into how ET and LT work together (or at cross purposes), so I listen when you tell me it is your ET. Glad you had a good weekend. I saw work narc today but that’s all I am writing because I am knackered. Smooches!

          4. Kim e says:

            Knackered? LOL What in the hell does that mean? I am guessing tired…….
            I just a 1.5 hour massage/my bad shoulders worked on/reiki treatment. Next massage/try to fix KIm’s broken body session will be for 2 hours in 2 weeks. I cant wait!!!!
            Need to talk to my gym guy about getting out of the contract. Work is not going to let up in the foreseeable future and it will be cheaper in the long run to buy out of the thing. I have all the weights/balance balls/bands I need to work out right in my spare bedroom. Gotta get motivated and come home and lift some weights.
            I think the insights comment was a compliment so thanks.
            Hope you get unknackered soon…LOL

  24. Kim e says:

    Thank you

  25. zwartbolleke says:

    Kim e

    Nooooooooooooo 😫😓
    I know you suffered so hard, I understand 💛
    Do the consultation, be kind to yourself

    1. Violetta says:


      Thank you–are you sure I’m the right recipient? We’ve only had a few conversations here.

      (Some cutting onions in this room….)

      1. zwartbolleke says:


        Of course I’m sure!

        You are not only appreciated by your students!
        I know we haven’t spoken (much), but I read you every day and I enjoy your writings a lot 💛

        I know you will love the HG series, Mr Tudor is a genius, a true genius.

        1. Violetta says:


          Dang, someone keeps cutting those onions around here!

          Thank you.

  26. Renarde says:


    Caution on this one. Big big caution. There are two ways he has achieved this.

    1 – He is actively monitoring you and your friends profile.

    2 – The mutal friend is firmly inside his camp. And has given him a very quick tip off or it was pre planned.

    I dont know anything about this situation apart from what you’ve just delineated. But I do think that you have mutual friends is problematic.

  27. Renarde says:


    You are correct, no one is. And if they do its wrapped up in sub chapters of books named ‘Why does he do that?’ And of course that’s a load of goobledegook.

    Incidentally I have that book. Still sitting there. Yawn.

  28. MB says:

    This answers all the questions that circle in the mind of the shelf appliance. It may even allow you to connect the dots and realize that you ARE a shelf appliance in the fuel matrix of a narcissist and didn’t realize that was the case. Nobody else is talking about this aspect of the narcissistic dynamic. Nobody. HG is an innovator in his field. Avail yourself of this groundbreaking information. I highly recommend this one.

    1. HG Tudor says:

      Thank you MB.

  29. Claire says:

    Absolutely astonishing material! Best spent monies ever this month ! It is a priceless package. For those readers who are unhappy that they have to purchase I would like to disclose some facts:
    Many moons ago my ex Narc accepted my proposal and attended few sessions with a male physiologist ( he preferred so ). Aside from the zero effect, he was paying Australian $100 per session, about 10 years go .
    In other words, US $ 70 per session 10 years ago .
    You do the comparison of the monetary side. I am continuing that I just learned more and more , I can listen to HG’s brilliant logic again and again and staying alert.

    I don’t need someone to hold my hand anymore or a box of tissues ( oops, I need it because even the tough girls wear pink and cry) .
    But I do need HG’s brilliant logic , thus my admiration for that material.

    1. HG Tudor says:

      Thank you Claire. Yet another set of reasons to demonstrate that the discounted cost of this Logic Bulletin and the others is astonishingly low for the help gained.

  30. Blueglade says:

    Thank you HG, I did as you recommended. This material with articles: What am I to him? and Shelf Life – The World of the Secondary Source, are essential! Assuming I was sole IPSS:
    1. Is it possible that after saying my farewell and going NC, MRN still considers me being SIPSS, painted black?
    2. What does it mean for CAIPSS when MRN states a desire to start over as friends?
    3. Does SIPSS recieve IGH post-escape/discard while IPPS is still in place?
    4. If MRN didn’t block does that mean she might be waiting for my ET making me contact her?

    1. HG Tudor says:

      1. Yes.
      2. You are being manipulated and there is a risk of being salami sliced back into a relationship again.
      3. It depends on the status of the IPPS as to black or white.
      4. No, he will not know about ET. He did not block because you will be on the shelf.

  31. MB says:

    This is an excellent assistance package. I realized that wanting answers from the N was part of what was keeping me engaged. Get them here from HG and be free. The N doesn’t know why he does as he does anyway. Gabs, I hope you will get this package. It will give you much insight into your shelf situation. (If you are still engaging)

  32. Lori says:

    Got a question. Haven’t spoken or had contact with Narc in around 6 months now. He is the king of fake profiles but I really haven’t had much of that activity lately but today a mutual friend named me In one of her posts and not even 2 hours later 2 fake friend requests came I’m certain are him. Does something like a friend mentioning you trigger them? Is that a Hoover ?

    1. HG Tudor says:

      1. Yes.
      2. Yes.

  33. Blueglade says:

    Hello HG, I can afford one IPSS bulletin right now and don’t know which one is more suitable for me at
    present moment. I’m DE and, pretty sure I was Candidate IPSS. After 3 months, she (prolly UMRN) cancelled
    engagement with IPPS. Couple weeks later she told IPPS that it’s over but cancelled her words the next day, she said she wasn’t ready for breaking up with him, so they were still together. UMRN still cared for me and wanted to be with me, even reffered to me as future husband. This went for another 5 months, less and less intimate. She started to express regret getting involved in intimate relationship with me and wanted to start over as friends. On the other hand, she said I’m the best thing that happend to her. She couldn’t decide with who she wants to be with. Back and forth. In november, after 2 weeks of silence form her we had a big argue by texting, I wrote her goodbye and went NC since then. She didn’t block me. We didn’t talk or text. Saw each other one time at venue a week ago, she was with the same IPPS, I ignored them and left. Almost 3 months after escape/discard(?) and not a single day without thinking about her. But Your work through articles and youtube helps me a lot.

    1. HG Tudor says:

      I’m pleased it helps you. I recommend Shelf Life to assist your understanding.

  34. Kim e says:

    Very informative. But I had a very strange reaction to it. My ET went sky high, I felt the anxiety building and I had to sit on my hands so that I did not text the N to see if he would reply. Threw me for a loop. But I mantained and did not contact. Thank you.

    1. HG Tudor says:

      It will increase ET because it is a form of interaction, however, as mentioned earlier, it is akin to a side effect from a necessary and beneficial medicine. Well done for maintaining no contact.

      1. Kim e says:

        HG. Sorry to say that NC is not in place any longer.

  35. WhoCares says:

    Thank-you FM1T 💙

    1. FoolMe1Time says:

      You’re welcome. 😘💞

  36. WhoCares says:

    Time, money (so much money), energy to put towards investing in life, a job, my health, my sense of self and more…
    Through the process I learned to value the things in that list that are irreplaceable.
    It is ironic because I used to say that the day that met him was both the best and worst day of my life – I met him, received an amazing job opportunity by phone and nearly lost my dad all on the same day (the doctors said that my father’s kidneys would have shut down a day later had I not brought him to the hospital when I did.)
    Now I still say it was the worst and the best day of my life, only for different reasons…I met him that day…but I also have my son because of him.

    1. WhoCares says:

      Posted to the wrong thread!

    2. FoolMe1Time says:

      WhoCares it doesn’t matter which thread you posted it on as long as posted. The ending was beautiful.

  37. Supernova DE says:

    Thanks boss. I’m on it 👍🏻❤️

  38. Supernova DE says:

    HG!!! You are killing me with these and I’m loving it. I just need to know if more are coming (about shelf or IPSS life) so I can get the right amount on my gift card in PayPal???

    1. HG Tudor says:

      Not this week. These are the only two that will be available in the near future so get hold of them ! They are critical.

  39. Kim e says:

    Damn it HG. ❤️🥃

    1. HG Tudor says:

      This will nail it for you

      1. Kim e says:

        Promise? I gotta get off this merry go round. I listen and read and it all makes sense but then I just go on with life like you are talking about someone else.
        Might need to bite the bullet and do a consult. I did 16 weeks…….why did I go back?

        1. HG Tudor says:

          Consult with me and I’ll explain why and ensure it does not happen again

          1. Kim e says:

            OK. I bought it. Looking for an easy bank to rob and then I will be in touch
            You recommend just a regular chit chat consult?

          2. HG Tudor says:

            I do.

          3. lisk says:

            Kim e, there is nothing “regular” when consulting with HG 😉

            I hope consult goes excellently!

          4. HG Tudor says:


        2. honestyrocks777 says:

          Heys guys, misti here…

          How do you guys afford having consults like they are candy 🙁 gosh I just feel hopeless somedays. I dont feel like I’m understood. I feel lost. I’m sad. Ugh.

          1. Kim e says:

            Hi. I have not had a consultation in over a year. As I keep falling off NC I figured my sanity was worth the money. Tired of feeling sad all the time.

          2. NarcAngel says:

            Hi Misty
            It’s the case that some consult regularly, but it’s more likely that you are reading of many people having consultations and making it feel that way to you. There is tremendous value to HG’s work as you know and is demonstrated by the number of consults and testaments to their effectiveness. Many were paying other professionals larger fees and on a regular basis for their services, but find the consults here better suited to their needs and less expensive, allowing them to consult more often. Others face financial constraint and have to prioritize their health amongst many other things and make it a goal to work towards a consult. In the meantime there are many articles and the reading of comments by others to assist. How many times have we spent money on things geared toward keeping a narcissist in our lives (clothing, dinners, drinks, gifts etc without a thought? The focus now is to put that towards prioritizing our health and to be free of them instead. We may get there at a different pace and by different methods, but the result is achievable for everyone. There is help here. We see you. So keep reading and work towards your goal. Chin up.

          3. Violetta says:


            I haven’t had one yet. I was an underpaid, overworked adjunct teacher, and now that there are fuck-ups in every department, from academics to IT to payroll, thanks to the new administration, I don’t even have that.

            I’ve been slowly building my HG library, recently with the help of a kind Mystery reader who got me “3 Interactions,” but there are several free ways to build our TudorLore:

            1. Go to the search engine on this site, enter relevant keywords (“love,” “lying,” etc.) and see what pops up;

            2. Go to the archives at the bottom and scroll through years and months until you see something that grabs your attention;

            3. Ask GH to recommend specific free articles on a particular topic;

            4. Ask K (The Narchivist) where there are comment threads relevant to your topic (she’s scary-good);

            5. Get on YouTube, search for “HG Tudor,” and scroll down. You can listen to videos that seem relevant or just interest you. Sometimes, I do it by length: if I’m strapped for time, I’ll pick something 12 minutes long, but if I’m going to be doing something like folding laundry, I can listen to one of the interviews (which I haven’t done to the latest yet).

            If and when I can afford a consult, I will have a better idea of what I need to.focus on, instead of wailing generally, “Why is my life so fucked-up?” which usually is pretty much my first reaction to everything.

            If you’re in an emergency situation, however, your needs may be different. I’m dealing with the aftermath of narc abuse, not an immediate situation.

          4. SMH says:

            Misti, HG has an Assistance Fund for those in need. Do ask him about it.

          5. Caroline-is-fine says:

            SMH,💙(I just posted this on the film thread/still having weird issues on this thread),

            Yeah, I can’t find that comment on your Matrinarc, so here is as good a place as any, to reply! But I’ll try to double post it (here & there).

            It’s interesting, isn’t it, how narcissists zero in our vulnerabilities/see cracks where they can get in…like with your Matrinarc, now taking up the mantle of “alone time” with you, being that she senses she can gain an advantage/you’re not comfortable with it. I think you’re wise to shy away from that and keep it the way you feel most comfortable, like with your sister there. As I recall (but can’t go back to review), your possible replies to her on this seemed fine…but if possible, I suggest “non-answer answers,” because they seem to be the best way to with narcissists…like really vague on explanations — or no explanations at all is ideal, KWIM? Because they seem to take any few words and twist it, especially in relating it to others, which can cause unnecessary issues…I’ve gotten over caring how my highly narcissistic parent explains things about me to others; and I’ve actually found people tend not to believe her take anyway…reasonable people innately know what’s bull, and especially when they know the other person’s character very well…and those who can’t be fair, who really cares what they think anyway?

            So…the only thing I was going to suggest is giving her very little to work with, with your replies. So maybe something like (when she brings up it just being the two of you spending time together): “I think it’s best we include —–(<your sister)." If she asks why, you say, "Because it's nice to include her." And just refuse to give her anymore than that. You'd be amazed how you can accomplish that, and it's super freeing. I would know!😂

          6. SMH says:

            Hi CIF, Thanks for that advice! Luckily, I don’t have to worry about it for awhile because I am away for the next few months. She also might not be mobile so I can dodge in and out. That would work too! Hope you are well!

          7. WhoCares says:


            I have had minimal consultations – and actually minimal book purchases (compared to some). The vast majority of my learning here has resulted from extensive reading of the free articles, reading the comments of other readers and the odd question that I’ve posted to HG here, on the blog.

          8. Violetta says:

            So I just got this from a former student, and my ET went through the roof:
            I’m sure you don’t remember me, but my name is [redacted] and I was a student in your English [redacted] class at [redacted] State back in Fall 2008. I recently received my PhD in Psychology and am now working at the University of [redacted]. I just wanted to reach out to you to let you know that you are one of the most influential professors I had throughout my entire educational career. Now that I’m on the other side of academia, I appreciate you and your class even more. You truly expanded my perspective on logic and persuasion (and really the world in general), and I still think about what you taught us regarding analyzing arguments and constructing our own arguments. I credit you with contributing greatly to my critical thinking skills (and thus ultimately my doctoral degree). I hope you are doing well, and I hope you are still teaching!
            So I’m torn between relief at someone reminding me that I can be a good teacher (when they let me), and embarrassment at realizing my student is an assistant professor, and I’m an unemployed adjunct.

            Do I save face and just thank her for making my day (which she did), or throw dignity to the wind and ask if she knows of any openings in the English department?

            I’ve been applying for editorial jobs too, but it grinds my gears to see how many classmates have tenure now, because She-Who-Must decided they WEREN’T worthy of torturing, and their final committees didn’t include her.

            I thought I had progressed so far, accepting that I might be lucky to get an office job, certainly better than being unemployed, had a govt. job when I was finishing my degree and it paid well, getting a copy editing or copywriting job would be even better, grad school had many benefits even if my career didn’t turn out the way I’d hoped, blah blah blah–

            Pride goeth before a fall. Who could have guessed that good news could smack your logical thinking upside the head as well as bad news?

          9. honestyrocks777 says:

            I’m not sure if I am using the right reply button,
            I dont want to upset anyone by posting in the wrong place.
            I felt nice.reading all your comments. Thank you all for replying.
            In my case nick paid for everything. It was with him that I was able to do things. He gave me money and took us out etc. Hes helped me with Bill’s and I never asked because I want to figure it out on my own. It’s me and my 2 children and me 🙂 I cant work full time because I’m on disability but I’m increasing hours over time. I’m not asking for pity just stating mys situation. There was a time I took nick to chicago or if we did a missions trip to feed the homeless he helped but wouldnt go. He even helped me and my oldest go to Haiti. I dont get to go out to eat a lot or do luxuries. So it’s already tight. I can probably save about $60 in 5 months or so. Lol we count pennies
            I have learned to be VERY frugal. All my clothes are garage sale or thrift stores and I have to say.. I dont look bad when I get fancy 🙂 then people get the pleasant experience of saying wow I like that outfit and I can say something like”$4 garage sale” lol
            Narc Angel
            I think I remember you from december. Violetta I think you as well. Yes I do think it is correct that I am seeing many people rather 1 getting consultations. I am very detailed and my brain is generally good at organization. I just cant pull money out of no where yet.. haha.
            As far as many people paying professionals large amounts of money. , that isn’t something I even have available. But because of my income status all of my insurance is paid for. And I don’t have to pay anything out of pocket. I would definitely agree with you that if they were paying this money towards others and found that HG was better why not just chopped the other guy out, and go with HD. However in my case. It is simply always money out of pocket and not always money in my pocket. LOL
            I want to say thank you for when you all do reply.. it helps me feel acknowledged and wanted. Kinda like I’m not flailing like a fish.

            Today I have been balling horribly. Its weird ii comment and dont always get noticed if I get comments back so I’m sure iii miss a lot. I apologize for being repetitive.

            Thank you for all the insightful information.

            I’m sure I’d be a wailing

          10. K says:

            There is Angel Assistance if you need it and, please, let me know if you need help finding comment threads related to topics that interest you.


          11. honestyrocks777 says:

            I am aware of the Angel assistance. However, I dont want to take advantage of it. I recieved help for the narc detector and an audio consultation. I dont know how often people use assistance. Or what is too much. I received a small refund and used it to buy things from HG. I was considering the ED. However, I guess that wasnt 50% off. In the opinion of others, I was considering Narc repellent and smear campaigns because I am hearing things coming around. As well as Is it love because my focus in studies is love. Would it be more beneficial to just hold off on those and just save for a day to get the ED. I cant do them all.

            I asked if there was income assistance because i would rather feel like i am helping and not getting a free ride from people. I hate when people in general take advantage of things.

            I am great at finding deals. Most people wouldn’t know how strapped i am for money…lol. i do the envelope system.. my grandma showed me. Ever heard of it?

            How is everyone doing? Yesterday was devastating for me. I was bawling all day.

            Ugh. I read “understanding wounding” fascinating. But the MRN didnt resemble nick at all. It was confusing. That wasnt why it was a bad day. Just feel bad. I wouldnt went people to leave me because I am so emotional. I am an HSP. ALL around.. lol. .

            At one of our groups that I attend there was a check list of 200 items that relate to HSP’s. I only had 2 that didnt apply.

            I’ve known all along that I have highly sensitive to disturbances and energy etc. But to see a list was awesome to have more understanding of myself.

          12. theletterafterj says:

            Good to read. Use AAF as many times as you need it; it’s what I would do. Prioritize what you need and start from the top and work your way down. Get whatever is necessary first; the rest will come later.

          13. theletterafterj says:

            These comments might give you a laugh and I don’t think you or anyone else would take advantage of AAF so don’t worry too much about that, focus on taking care of yourself.

            Caroline says:
            January 15, 2018 at 13:45
            I was curious what “HSP” was, so went online to see… found the test, took it – got a 24 too.

            HG Tudor says:
            January 15, 2018 at 14:19
            I scored 1.

            Twilight says:
            January 15, 2018 at 15:01
            Ha ha I am so not surprised HG. Yet 1 suits you 😉 like in #1

            HG Tudor says:
            January 15, 2018 at 15:03
            Damn right.

          14. Caroline-is-fine says:

            Too funny, K…totally forgot about that test! The “1” that HG scored makes it possible for him to interact with us at all😂 Actually, maybe just being alive gives you a “1.”😛

          15. theletterafterj says:

            Hahahaha…a blast from the past. I think you are correct; cold hard logic allows him to interact with us and provide accurate information and ET/HSP would derail that interaction rather quickly.

          16. Caroline-is-fine says:

            K, (<because "theletterafterj" is too long😉),
            Still, I'd love to pretend that the "1" was a teeny, tiny bit of empathy/sensitivity…waaaaay deeeeep down there (I'll need the BIG flashlight please!). 😂

            But I know better. He only has cognitive empathy. <cold logic!😌

          17. theletterafterj says:

            Hahahahaha…you’ll need the biggest flashlight (torch) that mankind has ever created!

            Brevity is perfect so K is fine. When I am posting from The War Room it’s the letterafterj; laptop is K.

          18. theletterafterj says:

            Was the HSP test an online test?

          19. Caroline-is-fine says:

            K and “honestyrocks”–
            I sent a reply back to “honestyrocks,” but it looks like it didn’t go through…or, at least, not yet. Yes, it was a free online test. I’m sorry I can’t recall the name, but there are probably several online. It was just a fun little thing we did (a few of us on the site at the time), and I’m sure it does show areas of empathy/sensitivity, but I’m not sure how helpful/determinative it would be on anything…

            I guess I would say if you are struggling with a narcissist(s) in your life, “honestyrocks,” you may want to consider a personal consult with HG, and he can direct you to the options with that.

          20. Lorelei says:

            K—your ability to sleuth so well is admirable. Would you or HG be
            willing to do a Q & A on sleuthing tips for readers? Say.. An email of questions, sent to you. Answers with a few examples and then dissemination to those interested? Why? Clearly there is a technique. I think of my CINAHL searches. There is a technique. Indeed. Many find it frustrating but it’s my preferred research platform, unless I need Cochrane for meta-analysis data. (Which is essential at times—but CINAHL meets my needs mostly) My focal area is able to be best served by finding meta analytic references in clinical
            guidelines. Anyway—not just my interest but many who come here are curious where to find specifics and it can cut down on repeated questions. It also just aids to overall improve the user experience. Or even take the Q & A and add to the acronym section to aid readers. HG??

          21. HG Tudor says:

            Sleuthing for what, Lorelei?

          22. theletterafterj says:

            Sleuthing for Cluedo!

          23. HG Tudor says:

            Dr Nuwan, in the operating theatre with the toilet roll.

          24. theletterafterj says:

            Hahahahaha…thanks for the laugh!

          25. Lorelei says:

            It could be a SNL skit.

          26. Lorelei says:

            So, HG, she always recalls articles and she mentioned where you can just look up your comments I believe in order to speed up the process of sifting for good information. I tried her recommendation of how to do this from saving a post she sent once but it didn’t work because I am technologically treading water on most days. Anyway, she always recalls (for instance) how to search for your comments within comments that may pertain to a particular subject. It is admirable. Me, others, or new readers that are interested on compartmentalization may benefit if there is a way to narrow down comments related for example. I have no idea how she does it. Maybe I am incorrect in how she narrows or nails down finding things. I was primarily interested in the screenshot explanation I saved because I could not get results like she can. I can send the old screenshot to you so you know what I mean.

          27. HG Tudor says:

            Thank you Lorelei, I understand what you mean combined with the screenshot you sent me. I shall look into this.

          28. Lorelei says:

            Thank you! I hope my example of finding things through databases illustrates why I am maybe more frustrated in WP. With research databases I can call the librarian and I can’t call K for a tutorial! But.. I do think cutting down the noise and getting straight to what I want or what others may want is useful. I could contact the happiness engineers, but they are not likely to have the same capacity as K to narrow down to what I mean.

          29. K says:

            When I Google: narcsite arrogance and listerine. It pulls up this link:

            I open the link and use shortcut command F, keyword: listerine and it comes up faster than you can say Constantinople and Timbuktu.

          30. Lorelei says:

            Jesus K. I can’t wait to play. If my day progresses as it has been I’ll be on Etsy or watching Southpark on Hulu. Now—I am reading a book too, so sometimes I do each activity for fifteen minutes at a time. There could be a case study done on my attention span.

          31. theletterafterj says:

            Perhaps you should consider making origami paper airplanes. That’ll keep you busy and then you can fly them all over the place.

          32. Lorelei says:

            I’m always looking for hobbies K.

          33. theletterafterj says:

            Origami is very relaxing. It calms the soul.

          34. MB says:

            K, origami good for the soul?!? Not for a perfectionist! I’ve done some (cranes) and I wanted to jump through the wall. I couldn’t ball the paper up hard enough to suit me and they aren’t heavy enough to throw in the trash can in a satisfactory enough way! When I did get good at them, it took me forever to make one because the folds have to line up perfectly under the magnifying glass and the creases have to be crisp. I’d rather take a beating that pick that up again. I’m glad you and WC enjoy it though. I really wish I could too.

          35. theletterafterj says:

            Hahahaha… you really are too hard on yourself! You crack me up, perhaps you could try some paper airplanes; they are easy and fun. The beauty is in the simplicity. Paper Cranes are a bit more complex but beautiful nonetheless.

          36. Lorelei says:

            Really K? Shall I do this and feature it somewhere online? The fruits of a new craft!

          37. theletterafterj says:

            Sure! Google: Masu Box and go nuts. Origami planes make great party favors for children’s birthday parties. It gets them moving, usually, and, when the planes have been beat to hell, you throw them into recycling.

          38. Lorelei says:

            I see Kool Krafts has some beginner kits.

          39. K says:

            The most efficient way to get to a comment: use the least amount of words in the correct order.

            It helps to use the bloggers name, most of the time, but try Googling the comment with or without the name and watch what happens.

          40. K says:

            Google: narcissist spelled backwards is asshole

            It should pull up Pointless Platitudes.

          41. Lorelei says:

            Thanks, and funny you thought I found her comment on finding stuff. I am completely useless in WP, however, someone may have the search utility of finding K’s comments and NOT have the technique down of something else that may be of interest. See what I mean? We all have different “user friendly/user experience” questions potentially. K has it down quite well and the user experience can be enhanced with understanding how to locate things.

          42. theletterafterj says:

            Searching on narcsite can be tricky. When I search, I deploy tunnel vision (focus) and I play with the words (manipulation).

            Some comments are easy to find because they are on certain threads.

            1. Viking by creed a.k.a. shampoo or cosmetics corner thread.
            2. Nazi uniform
            3. Silk
            4. Domestic Divas (connect it with the cleanliness of Dr. O)
            5. The dog thread
            6. The midwife thread
            7. The Green haired thread a.k.a. morality/stolen love thread.
            8. the Assateague a.k.a. animal thread
            9. rechargeable batteries a.k.a. vibrator thread

            Sometimes, I just remember the words and I google search them.

            Google search: narcsite you read here to remember not to forget. It should pull up no contact mistakes and your selfish POV.

          43. Lorelei says:

            I’m glad you saw our banter on this subject K. I saved a screenshot and sent it to HG of prior instructions you sent that I could never get to work. And why are people using vibrators that require batteries? That is so 2003. I’ll try to play around after bit. I mean searching for things like Assateague, not with a vibrator.

          44. K says:

            Hahahaha…batteries are not “green”. Have fun playing around; be persistent and puckish.

            Try practicing. Google narcsite:

            1. NarcAngel flaming vegas duo
            2. Nunya biz George Michael binge
            3. HG Tudor I’m going nowhere team!
            4. Sweetest Perfection synesthesia
            5. Confectionery Corner can end now!
            6. Lorelei slippery slope

          45. Lorelei says:

            Ok K—is this the trick? Just google narcsite and the terms? Not place the terms in narcsite’s search? HG was confused even more thinking I found your comments on the matter and therefore why was I asking kinda thing.. I took a screenshot of your instructions awhile back. I’ve gotten no where in narcsite’s search box. It’s not often I even look for something but with quarantine I’m bored. Like what would listerine and narcsite produce?!

          46. HG Tudor says:

            I was not confused.

            I explained the irony of how you were asking how to find things and in so doing you went and found a comment of K´s to demonstrate what you were looking for.

          47. Lorelei says:

            Omg. If I could find that I wouldn’t need to ask. I have a headache.

          48. K says:

            Once, I Google searched: Green Yarn and, while looking at the images, I saw a green dragon dildo amongst the yarn, hence my foray into Dragon Porn. It really does exist!

          49. Lorelei says:

            Dragon porn? And all I’ve ever wanted was a take charge kinda man that is taller me and buys flowers.

          50. Lorelei says:

            I did not find a comment of K’s after asking how to search—that would make no sense. That was a screen shot from awhile back. How is that ironic?

          51. HG Tudor says:

            It is ironic because you are asking “Help, I am trying to find things.” and then you produce something that you have found, even though it was from some time ago.

            Nothing turns on it, it amused me.

          52. Lorelei says:

            HG—I didn’t find anything via search. I had a screenshot of her instructions from awhile ago that I was unsuccessful using. Like having the instructions to open a door, written down and I can’t make the instructions work. There was no retrieval of the instructions by using her instructions because it was just the Instructions on my phone stored as a screenshot. Why is that amusing or ironic? Nothing turns on it?

          53. HG Tudor says:

            You are missing the point and it was just an observation, hence nothing turns on it. I found it amusing, if you did not, it is not an issue.

            You were searching for something to help you find something and you retrieved something by searching and locating it (okay not by using search but by looking amongst your screenshots) and thus I found that amusing.

          54. Lorelei says:

            Screenshots are stored as photos. There is no technique to browsing photos. Except for taking them and instructions are provided.

          55. K says:

            Yes, Google first, however, if you are looking for a comment that contains a book title or author, try the narcsite search function.

            type: jaws into the narcsite bar and watch the magic happen.

          56. Lorelei says:

            I have a minute to play. I was playing in my mulch as I’m a horticulturist nowadays.
            Ironically my first bloom of this spring is a narcissus. I have spring beds I planted years ago that are still strong. Anyway.. Jaws within narcsite brings up “I second that emotion” and from google it is “Early Warning Detector.” Which author query would you even want to make in narcsite? (For example)
            Which search do you typically use to find comments. Btw—we had a similar discussion months ago but my ADD prevailed. I dare you to find the discussion and tell me how! Since we are all social distancing I’m planted into a sedentary life.

          57. K says:

            Lorelei nee Claire
            Very good. I Second That Emotion is correct! Easy peasy!

            Google: narcsite K if you have any questions don’t hesitate to ask


          58. Lorelei says:

            K, what is the Fury link for? I’ll play later, I have a paper due at midnight and need to focus in-between painting boards. I have to let them dry a little before turning them to paint the back side. It is fun!

          59. theletterafterj says:

            I accepted your dare!

            “Btw—we had a similar discussion months ago but my ADD prevailed
            I dare you to find the discussion and tell me how!”

            Google: narcsite K if you have any questions don’t hesitate to ask

          60. K says:

            Author queries are made if the comment contains a book title/author so, if you want to find my book recommendations, you can use the NS Search Function to look up: Dicky, Hiaasen, Follet.

            Also, beware of Older/Newer comments! If you search those authors, scroll all the way to the bottom and hit: Older Comments or you will not find the recommendations.

          61. Lorelei says:

            My favorite writer is Margaret Atwood. Her poetic nature brings me joy.

          62. theletterafterj says:

            Perfect, if you ever want to look up this thread, use keyword(s): Margaret Atwood.

            I enjoyed The Handmaid’s Tale.

          63. K says:

            Narcsite arrogance and listerine.

          64. Lorelei says:

            Ok, there are many listerine references that “pop up” via “narcsite listerine” search. Maybe, we can use listerine to combat COVID!
            One thing is that it shows it was a comment embedded under a written piece, but doesn’t go directly to the comment. How do you get to the comment most efficiently?

          65. Lorelei says:

            Alright K. Same issue. Going to google and typing in narcsite arrogance and listerine brings up a thread under “Promiscuous Boy” with over 300 comments. Funny I see that Sweetest was new to WP and griping a bit of its intricacies! (This was late 2018)
            Again, you certainly don’t scroll all these comments? Also, I actually am not totally dumb. My friend can’t even figure out how to get books from Amazon. I can’t even take the time to help with that fucking headache so I appreciate you entertaining my quarantine activities.

          66. Lorelei says:

            Batteries are not green, no. I’ve never wanted a green anything for anything anything, yet I’ve slept with aliens repeatedly.

          67. K says:

            Practice makes perfect. Start by looking up your own comments.

          68. Lorelei says:

            K—the other thing I may do since we can’t do anything else is dive into why I don’t always get notifications. I unsubscribed & resubscribed with some results but that makes no sense unless some type of default changed? I always get irritated but I have time to play with it now.

          69. K says:

            Good luck with WP, I have trouble “liking” comments, sometimes it lets me “like” and sometimes it won’t. WP Blows Hot and Cold.

          70. theletterafterj says:

            Cluedo Super Sleuth! I am open to anything. Repetition and familiarity are key when you are looking for information. Tenacity and instinct also play a significant role, as well.

            When people first arrive here their ET is, usually, off the charts so helping them find their answers/navigate the blog is hugely beneficial and I try to make it as simple as possible, especially for the newbies.

            If a blogger wants info on infidelity. There are two easy ways to do it.

            1. Google: narcsite infidelity
            2. Use the search bar on narcsite and type in infidelity

            Once you open the relevant article then you can either scroll through the comments or use the shortcut Control + F.

          71. Violetta says:

            honestyrocks777: Thrift shops RULE. I have found $300 suits for $12 or $15, in excellent condition. Wash everything before you wear it (or have it dry-cleaned if it’s something like a coat or tailored suit). You can find good quality stuff among all the junk; just be patient.

          72. honestyrocks777 says:


            Where did the comment come from about taking the test from caroline? Where is this test? For me, I dont know what is “necessary” to have for me right now and what is just having something in my library

          73. Caroline-is-fine says:

            Hi, honestyrocks777,
            That was a free online test that we just took for fun…although I think it can show levels/areas of empathy/sensitivity in an individuals, I wouldn’t exactly call it a determinative test on anything. Do you want to find out if you are an Empath/what type?

          74. theletterafterj says:

            It may have been an online test.

            The link is below. I don’t know what device you use but the shortcut Control/Command (mac) F is vey helpful, just type: Scored into the search bar that appears on the upper right and it will highlight the comments for you.

            Whatever you think will help you move forward is what you should consider starting with.


          75. theletterafterj says:

            Oops, the answer is in Caroline’s (-is-fine) comment. It was online.

  40. Pingback: Black or White? On The Shelf ⋆ NarcTopia
  41. MB says:

    Three files?!?

    1. HG Tudor says:

      Not one, not two but three chock full of premium information

      1. MB says:


  42. Cloudy says:

    Im on the wall like a picture frame.

    1. cogra002 says:

      Cloudy i am now a shelf supply. I kind of enjoy it. Gives me time to detox, make a plan., start learning to live without them in our lives

      1. Cloudy says:

        Sounds like your off too a great start

        1. cogra002 says:

          Well, I’ve been at it a while, but still not successfully NC. However, I think about the Narc less and less as I move on with my own stuff. My goals keep increasing the more I do. The Narc is such a minor player in my life most of the time now. The danger is they could Hoover and return, of course, however, we are educated now. 💩 sounds like 💩 now

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