An Exchange With a Parental Narcissist

236 thoughts on “An Exchange With a Parental Narcissist

  1. NarcAngel says:

    Certainly some interesting comments and insight on this thread for the observant.

  2. k mac says:

    This is the single most depressing thing about my involvement with the narcissist. Being raised by an abusive mother and step father I vowed to never ever allow anyone to treat me shitty! I couldn’t control my situation as a child so in adulthood I was determined to only invite people Into my life that treated me with respect and dignity.
    All that went out the window with the narcissist. I was so torn apart by not being able to walk away from him when I was being treated in a way that went against my promise to myself.
    The book manipulated explained why I did what I did and stuck in there for so long despite hating myself for it. Thank you HG for helping me make sense of the senseless.

    1. A Victor says:

      K mac,
      I just saw this comment, thank you for sharing your experience. One of the things I have continued to beat myself up for is the going back time and again after I’d walked away, this was more to my first ex than my second. And that crap feeling in the pit of my stomach as I gave in again each time. I will reread Manipulated with this specifically in mind, thank you!

      1. k mac says:

        AV ❤

  3. Leigh says:

    TS, I hope you see this. I’m so sorry to hear about your daughter. The children do grow up a lot quicker than we did. I don’t know if that’s necessarily a bad thing though. It always amazes when I talk to my non- narcissist daughter. She’s so much more aware than I was at her age. I was so naive. She’ll say things to me and I’m blown away by her maturity and how clearly she can recognize toxic behaviors. Our children have two fundamental things that we didn’t have as children. They have us to lean on (we had no one & had to figure it out on our own) & they have awareness. Plus there awareness is at a higher level because of what we’ve learned from Mr. Tudor. My daughter is older so I’ve pointed her to Mr. Tudor as well. I have a glimmer of hope for all our children that they are going to be ok.

    1. Truthseeker6157 says:

      Hello Leigh x

      I have a feeling I might be missing comments across various threads, I’ve been on some fairly busy threads of late, hopefully I haven’t missed any of yours.

      Thank you, my girl is doing ok just now. I think she picked out the logic in what I was explaining, her pride definitely kicked in ( good girl haha!) and the fact it was half term break this week has helped. She has a stable friendship group and those girls are busy! The week of social time has boosted her and I keep reminding her it’s almost summer break, so she has more of the same to look forward to.

      She has rebounded better this time than the last, so I’m hoping he stays blocked. We know all too well how it is though. A bad week or a disappointment can have us thinking about the narc and how things were at the start. Now that I know what I’m looking for, hopefully I’ll see the warning signs before she unblocks.

      You’re right, our kids are in a stronger position than we were. I do feel very fortunate to have found the blog. If my daughter is an empath, and I’m absolutely convinced she is, then the knowledge we receive here will be crucial in weaponising her going forward. I think her recent experience has opened my eyes to just how early our kids can get caught and it’s no less painful for them just because they are younger. Maturity is a double edged sword. On the one hand, she’s my best friend. On the other, I can forget that underneath that mature exterior, really, she’s just a little girl.

      A knowledge package specifically designed for teens would be really helpful. Sometimes listening to your parents can feel a bit ‘good girl’. Information direct from an expert might be better received by some teens. A polite request HG.

      Xx

      1. Leigh says:

        TS,
        Some of the threads are enormous, lol. That’s why I opted to start a new comment instead of responding to one of your comments that have long threads already. I figured you might see this quicker.

        I’m glad to hear your daughter is doing better. Absence away from him will definitely help.

        Has she listened to any of HG’s videos? Some of them I think are ok for teenagers too. I know she’s only 14 but I think a fundamental understanding of narcissism, could really help. I also agree that it will be more effective hearing it from the expert. Maybe start with, “What is Narcissism” and go from there.

        She’s got her Mama on her side so she’s gonna be ok. xx

  4. NarcAngel says:

    TS

    Do you have evidence that he is 15?
    How did you become aware that he was a problem? (did your daughter approach you with concern or did you approach her with concern about changes in behaviour for example?).

    1. Truthseeker6157 says:

      Hi NA,

      My daughter has met this guy, he’s the cousin of a girl in her extended friendship group.
      They have massive Snap groups so he then appeared in the Snap group and it went from there. Personally, I have heard him once or twice but not seen him.

      Behaviour wise a little up and down but she is a teen, so I’d say within the normal fluctuation.

      She didn’t tell me about him until the first time he blocked her last August. We were on holiday together and sharing a room. She knew she was moody and apologised to me then burst into tears. She first told me then. At that point he had only really been friendly and supportive of her, then, the sudden block. I explained to her that ghosting was poor behaviour, asked her would she do it etc. I didn’t connect the dots at that point but I clocked the red flag. I saw how upset she was but saw it more as a first crush ending. She was convinced that it was her fault. He had told her about a girl he was interested in dating, ( triangulation, arsehole) this both upset and annoyed her, so she hadn’t messaged for a few days, then came the block.

      She was upset for a long time afterwards, too long for just a crush. She would come in to me late at night in tears again. Her friends didn’t understand how upset she was, she explained that they don’t get how she feels, they don’t feel things the way she does. At that point I was convinced she is an empath. There are lots of signs, she’s a bit young to be sure, but that sealed it for me.

      Unbeknown to me he reappeared on our birthday in late November. We were away in London together to celebrate. She was super moody, kept wanting to go back to the hotel room. She only told me recently that it was because he had shown up again that weekend and she was scared of missing a message from him by being out and about in London. Massive red flag as far as her reaction goes. She was completely out of character that weekend. Hard work, no fun, non communicative. This was obviously because she just wanted to lock herself away and talk to him.

      I had suspected more recently he was back on the scene, little giveaways, highs after looking at her phone etc. I brought a drink up to her one night and she was on the bed wearing her new clothes chatting to someone haha, tells like that. I didn’t ask her though, I left it to her to tell me. He stuck around until a few weeks ago. I now know that means end of November until May this time round. Same deal, no warning, sudden block.

      This time we went into a deeper discussion and she told me more. I can now clearly see the behaviours, the red flags etc. Fortunately she has a really good circle of friends, so she is keeping busy socially. She isn’t moping but she is secretly upset. My explanation of his behaviours and my questioning, did he ever do this or that has her reasonably sure that she had her first brush with a narcissist. The test will come more when she feels better. Curiosity, unblock just to see etc.

      My daughter doesn’t tell me everything, nor should she have to, but she does come to me immediately when things go wrong. She’s a very mature 14. If you met her you would likely say 17, not just because of her physical appearance, but her general demeanour, her attitude, the way she communicates etc. It’s that difficult middle ground where I don’t want to expose her to the full force of what narcissism is, devaluation, abuse etc, but I want to give her enough information so that she is convinced about her current situation and can protect herself going forward.

      I’m thinking Red Flag might be a safe read for her. It’s practical. Some of it won’t apply to her yet but I think it might be a good introduction. Strangely she resisted HG’s YouTube. I didn’t push, I just stated that if she felt she needed more answers that I could direct her to some great information on YouTube that would help. I might come back round to that if I see the opportunity.

      I didn’t expect to have to deal with a narc at this point in her young life. Social media is a nightmare. Teens run everything from social media and finding a balance between respecting their privacy, showing that you trust them, whilst keeping them safe is really tough.

      1. Contagious says:

        I worry about our youth with social media. It is shown to have a huge mental effect on mental health in teens. It is truly a crisis. There is too much time spent on it. For me, the answer is get them out of the house and into activities like sports or arts. Focus on real time friendships. Keep teens busy and off the phone. My best friends daughter was date raped by a social media guy she met. The next guy she met was too old and my friend put a protective quash on it. It’s a tough one to conquer I think for parents. I was “ lucky” my son was into football and boxing and I put him into a Navy Seals program. It was Saturdays at 6:00 am…Funny story…. There was a photo hanging large of a hot young man with a gun at the Navy Seal center. My son was 13. The sign read” why do the games when the real life is here.” No shit! I said to this old military man running the program, are you recruiting minors?” He said step over here with the parents, no, let me talk with your son. Lol. My daughter went from gymnastics and Cher to the demanding crew. Three rides a day she required. Weekends up at 4 am to see the race. I look back at their achievements. My son is a marine on the boxing team soon to be appointed to a high level and high paid security team in NYC. He is 4 years in and served time in Iraq. My daughter is on full scholarship for computer science with a documentary film minor. She goes to Germany this fall. I think social media is a plague for teens. Keep them busy with live interests. My two cents.

        1. Contagious says:

          Crew not cher

        2. Truthseeker6157 says:

          Hi Contagious,

          Sorry I only just saw your message to me. I agree, interests outside school is useful, my son attends the gym after school now and has a part time job at the weekend. My daughter also has a job at the weekend and is very social, so lots of seeing friends, going into town shopping etc. She plays netball for the school but has dropped football. I think a lot of teen girls do lose interest in sports at this age but I’m hoping she goes back to it in some form.

          The difference with social media is that it’s isolating. The downtime after dinner and homework etc, we used to watch tv, they chat with their friends. Getting ready for school, my daughter talks to her best friend. Phone on the bed, both chatting intermittently as they get ready. In some ways it’s nice, but it does come with its risks. I rarely watch tv, very rarely, my downtime is spent similarly, I find HG’s videos far more engaging than most tv programmes. I was also ensnared online.

          Trying to find that balance is tough but you’re right, keeping them engaged in sports or socially I think is key.

          Xx

          1. Truthseeker6157 says:

            Reading that back, with isolating I meant that we used to watch tv, sit downstairs with family. With social media, they are separate in their own rooms chatting online.

            Xx

  5. Gypsy Heart says:

    ST,

    I can understand your pain and suffering. I am sorry you had to experience that. I can also relate to how those experiences can last a lifetime. Many ACONs are conditioned to be people pleasers and to have poor boundary recognition that leads to being manipulated throughout their lives. I am currently in therapy for Complex PTSD from childhood. My counselor is very intelligent and is working with me on trauma therapy using CBT. He also recognizes narcissim and I have discussed HG’s work with him and he has encouraged me to continue my reading. (Really I just think it makes his job easier). Hahaha

    I don’t know if you saw my earlier post but my father leaned more towards psychopathy which made my narcissistic husband seem like a saint. I viewed my husband’s controlling ways and manipulations as more protective of me. I was never allowed by my father to make my own choices, not even my career. I was also forced to strive for perfection. Always the thoughts of not being good enough. This lead to my being very indecisive and having difficulties making my own choices in adulthood. I was almost relieved for my husband to take the reins.

    Early in my marriage I had decided not to have children because of my childhood. I didn’t feel that I had the proper role models to be a good parent myself. I met my narcissist husband when I was a senior in high school. His parents knew a bit about the physical and emotional abuse that I went through and treated me as a daughter from the time I started dating. My husband was very intelligent and could cognitively reason a lot of situations concerning our daughter. He did not want any of our family to see him in a bad light as a father. He also had his own issues from what I believe was a narcissist mother and an empathic father. He actually let me take the lead for a lot of ideas about raising her. I learned what not to do from my parents and explained this to him and his family and he had cognitive empathy. She was allowed to make her own choices and develop her own individuality. Of course starting with age appropriate choices and guidance.I would never let her suffer. Part of his facade was being a good father. He could be manipulative and controlling of her she loves her dad, and as an adult she continues to have a relationship with him.

    I did decide to leave him when she was a teenager. Things were pretty volatile at the end and I have a lot of regrets as to how that time period effected her. I would love to be a perfect parent but I have made plenty of mistakes as a parent. I have tried to own a lot of that with her now that she is an adult. She seems to understand. I also try not to paint her dad in a bad light. We have discussed her dad and I separating and I use the polite phrases. “I just felt like we didn’t want the same things out of life anymore”. “I felt like I was loosing myself”. She immediately piped up, “oh, you mean his attitude…it’s my way or the highway,?” Yes that would be it.

    I understand your heightened emotional thinking about your parents. You are absolutely valid in feeling this way. My heart goes out to you. I am glad you were able to express your emotions in a safe environment with those that understand. I hope it has helped and you are able to let some of that pain dissipate with the understanding of the subject matter and the support you will receive here. That heightened emotional thinking will subside as the logical thinking that you are gaining here begins to take over. I am already seeing that in your ability to understand some of the other comments here about romantic entanglements.

    I have to admit I did feel a twinge of emotional thinking with your statement about romantic involvements that felt like judgement. I have been dealing with my own emotional thinking lately that I have been working on. I have had a lot of anger about my own situation and have misplaced it on others. I realize that the anger is really a deep hurt and have been ashamed of directing it at others. With this insight I was able to logically understand where you are coming from and not take it personally. I have only touched the surface here and there is so much material provided by HG that I have yet to incorporate.

    I wish you the best in your healing journey,

    Gypsy

    1. ST says:

      Thank you Gypsy Heart for your kind words. I am sorry I am just now seeing your comment almost a month later, but I do appreciate your kind response.
      Yes, there was a lot of pain inside me when I wrote that. It is very complicated because even after my dad’s death his decision to marry my mom and have children continues to this day to have repercussions. It wasn’t a one time decision with a one time affect or hurt. It feels like a never ending story that my dad helped create for me without my permission or input. It was just forced on me and my sister by my mom and dad. However, it was helpful to write that and get it out of my system, but because I knew it was going to be a major vent and possibly hurtful to those in romantic relationships, I put the warning at the start.

      It really is a complicated and touchy subject because it seems like a lot of people downplay or forget that the children suffer. Psychiatrists like to say “children are resilient” so they just snap back and naturally recover quickly so the one that has to be looked out for is the parents. The children will be alright. I am almost positive if you asked my dad while he was living if my sister and I were abused, he would have denied it. This denial of the good parent of what narc abuse does to their children is a problem in my eyes. The pain and trauma children experience can follow children into their adult lives. Look what it did to HG and in consequence all his victims! Moreover, what adults just brush off as nothing for children is considered abuse and trauma for adults. That makes no sense. It’s like the mentality of kicking a dog. “It’s just a dog so it is no big deal”, but if someone hauls off and kicks an adult in the ribs they will have them thrown in prison. Now it is abusive, assault, and painful. Why was it not considered painful and harmful to the dog? Why is it not considered traumatic and painful to the child? Why is it considered okay to bring a child into the world to be abused so some adult can feel loved or have a constant fuel supply? This isn’t right, and I wish my father would have considered this before bringing me and my sister into the world. I still love my dad and I still see him as a very good man but on this one point he failed colossally.

  6. ST says:

    Please don’t read this if you are a victim of narc romance because my comment might hurt you. I just need to “spill my spleen” as a child of a narc.

    You are absolutely right that as a child of a narc I agree that I see our “suffering” as much worse than those of romance for the reasons you listed but also one other very important reason, we never get the luxury and pleasure of being love bombed. There is no need, by nature of birth we are automatically owned and controlled so from day one the abuse begins, never to experience even a single taste of love. To be love bombed would be heaven for a child, such a wonderful memory to hold on to, but we don’t get that. We are denied.

    Thus, this brings me to the “hurtful” part. Because we are denied any love, even from other relatives or anyone, I sometimes have a hard time reading the comments of people claiming to be victims of narc romance because I see them as extremely greedy, desperate and selfish only caring about their own pleasure in being “love bombed” with no care about the damage their reveling will bring to others. Why do I feel that way? Because my dad married and had children with a narc.

    My late father was a WONDERFUL man. As a child I looked up to him and thought if I married I wanted to marry a man just like him. I adored him. But by 9 I realized I couldn’t rely on him as a father and when I reached adolescence I lost respect for him because I realized he was just as much a part of the abuse as my narc mother because he helped create the abuse by impregnating my mother and he allowed the abuse. Therefore, as much as I loved my dad, I lost respect for him as a man and father. I still loved him, but I couldn’t respect him. It was so hard losing respect for a person I loved and admired so much.

    But the reality is there would have been NO child abuse if it had not been for him. He was 100% as guilty for the abuse as my mom. Once he saw some red flags, that should have stopped him from having children with my mom, but he didn’t and even worse, he would have given her unlimited children and did try but fortunately my mom’s body could only have 2 (she had multiple miscarriages). He did not care that she was not mother worthy.

    If he wanted to live with a narc that was his business, but he had no business bringing children into the world to be abused by his narc. It was also cruel for him to use children as his shield to get the darts off him. By having children, we got the abuse rather than him. That is cowardly, selfish, and cruel. I actually respect HG more than people having children with narcs because at least HG has chosen not to have children. I understand he probably doesn’t have them for his own selfish reasons, but that is better than HAVING them for selfish reasons!!!! Having children selfishly is the WORST thing!!!! That is objectifying children too. Narcs are not the only people that objectify children!!! Empaths do it too!!!!

    I will always love my dad, but I can never respect him for what he put his children through. And I can’t respect any person who greedily gobbles up vain, cheap flattery just to selfishly enjoy “love bombing”, and then starts seeing red flags but has children anyway. Then the people want to cry “I am a victim”. No, they created abuse out of selfishness!!! They should stop crying victimhood when they created helpless victims! They can escape, but the true victims they created, the babies and children, cannot escape. To some extent a child of a narcissist is trapped for life because the damage has been done in the foundational years.

    Now that I am an adult, I have gone through my mind many times on “why?” would such a good man as my father do such a thing to his children. And why would such a good man marry someone like my mother. His mother was like an angel, and I am not being biased because everyone that knew her both family and friends all said the same. She was so pure and good. So he was not marrying someone that reminded him of his mother. He had the perfect model for a wife in his mother, but he chose my mother and I have often wondered “why?”

    Well, he has passed and I will not get that answer, and I doubt he ever would have admitted he caused so much abuse. I doubt he ever relieved how guilty he was of abuse, and I never wanted to put such a guilt trip on him so I didn’t make him face up to it. So it is what it is. I still love him, and I do feel compassion for him because I know he was in way over his head, but I wish he had done better, and I know we can all do better but his mistake caused enormous abuse to innocent children’s lives. And anyone who has children with a narc is guilty of causing HORRIBLE abuse. Such people are not innocent even though they may be good people.

    I love you dad, but why!!!!

    1. A Victor says:

      Hi ST,

      I totally understand your comment, I have actually had the same thought a few times, not to minimize the impact of a romantic narcissist situation but it is very different. I have experienced both, the parental experience was both parents also, making it that much more challenging. I agree that in these situations both parents, narc or not, are responsible for what happens with the children. I’m my situation I was completely groomed by my parents to willingly accept any treatment by any man that I allowed into my life. So their abuse of me has continued for most of my life, even though one of them is now gone. I am glad you felt comfortable to write your frustrations out here, the warning at the beginning is good also. I hope you can find some peace with HG’s help, his work, he has helped me tremendously. All the best.

      AV

      1. ST says:

        Thank you Victor for your kind words. In your case, I can totally understand how having 2 narcissist parents would groom you to marry a narc and you would not understand what is happening to you is abuse because that’s all you knew and that is how you were raised to be. You were not raised to experience healthy relationships and boundaries. You were raised to accept abuse as normal. That makes perfect sense to me. So I don’t blame you. I would just say your circumstance is an unfortunate byproduct of narcissist parental abuse. The results of narcissistic or any parental abuse has ramifications on one’s adult life, and it sometimes takes years or even a lifetime to undo everything that was ingrained in the child from day one.

        However, my dad was different. In my dad’s case he had WONDERFUL, loving, kind, gentle, caring parents, aunts, uncles, cousins, siblings, and grandparents. He came from a small close knit town where people treated each other with love and respect. He grew up only in a bubble of love, honesty, and good character. There is no reason in the world why he should have married and had children with a woman like my mom. It makes no sense to me.

        My mom, who is a narcissist, I understand. She had a caustic mother and my grandmother had a very dysfunctional mother so I can at least trace and understand my mother’s narcissism (it doesn’t excuse the abuse but I can at least understand and sympathize to some extent as to “why”). But with my dad there is no explanation to why he would do this to his children. He really was a good man, but his enabling and silence in some ways hurts more than my mom’s abuse because he really knew better.

        Anyway, thank you for listening and it really does feel better just writing it out and getting to “spill my spleen”. So that alone has given tremendous help and as I read more, I am sure that will help more too. Thank you again for your kindness.

        1. A Victor says:

          Hi ST,

          Thank you for your reply. As I was reading, and rereading your original comment, the thought came to mind that I am one who had children with a narc. And I have had to face many things that I did, caused or allowed into my children’s lives, it is an ongoing situation, more pops into my awareness all the time. There is nothing that can remove it now except for me to change myself into a healthier person who relates to them in a healthier way. They are patient and understanding of the process, and I am grateful for that. I am thankful for your comments here, I have thought of the first one several times since reading it, in context with current things going on in my life or that of others close to me. I am glad for you that you love your dad and I hope it has helped you to vent your spleen about this here.

          1. ST says:

            Thank you Victor. YES! It helped tremendously “venting my spleen”. I needed to get that out of my system. I had been carrying that since a young child. And I really appreciate you and others for allowing me to vent a very touchy topic. I also appreciate HG for opening a place for it to be vented. I am aware that most people here identify as empaths so I probably am a little too forward for the sensitive nature of everyone here, but I really do appreciate being able to say that at last!

            As for your children, of course they may be different from me, but I can say from my experience, even after going through all I went through with my narc mom (and she still keeps dishing it out to this day. It hasn’t ended), I do feel my father holds responsibility BUT as I said before I have always loved him. However, if he had later in his life acknowledged my sister and I had been abused and explained why he allowed it, I might have completely excused him because I never wanted to hold anything against him. I loved him. I have searched in my mind since childhood a way to excuse him. I just needed a good reason, and even if he didn’t have a good reason if he just had said to me “I am sorry.” I would have forgiven him. So if you are open and honest with your children without being bitter and placing the blame on their father (I don’t think I would have accepted my dad saying it was my mom’s fault. In my mind, she was the abuser but he is the one that placed me in the hell with her and gave her free reign to do whatever she wanted to do to me. In my mind, they both played a part), so if you just admit your part and explain “why” going back to your childhood, I think your children will be open to understanding. It sounds like they are already very understanding so you have nothing to fear. Therefore, feel free to move forward and fly!!! If your children do have some struggles with acceptance, just acknowledge they have a right to that and love them anyway, and as they get older and make their own mistakes in life, I think little by little they will understand more.

            Start enjoying your life now and spread that joy to your children! It is your time to fly!

        2. JB says:

          ST,

          I feel the same about my mother as you do about your father. I can see why my dad developed the way he did, given his own background, but I just can’t fathom why my mum ended up with someone like my dad given her own (I believe to be non-narcissist) background. It does make it so much harder to accept her tolerance of my dad’s behaviours, which I am trying to work through at the moment. I know if my husband treated our kids the way my dad does me and my sibling, I would leave him, or at least have a go at him! Just do something to show the kid you have their back! But my mum does neither, it’s like she is indoctrinated. I wasn’t fully aware of this before having kids, but I find it really hard to accept this as a mum, because I just don’t get how someone who loves you can turn a blind eye, yet she does. Then I feel guilty because she isn’t a bad person and I know she loves me, and I do love her.

          I can relate to the flour on the floor thing as well. Sadly, as a parent, I have to confess that I can now be like that too. I guess it’s the fallout from my own upbringing. I don’t regret becoming a mum because I adore my kids, but there isn’t a day that goes by when I don’t worry that I might end up messing them up in some way because of my own hangups caused by my upbringing. But I like to think that the main things are that I am aware of my flaws and acknowledge them, I listen to my kids, talk to them after I have had a meltdown moment, and (most importantly for me) I apologise when it is appropriate – something I never received as a child, and still don’t.

          1. ST says:

            JB, Exactly! Finally someone who gets it from an ACON’s point of view! Like you with your dad, I get how my narc mom became a narc, but how my good dad ended up with my narc mom makes no sense to me.

            Your feelings towards your mom of “just do something”, I felt the same thing. It is perplexing isn’t it!

            As for guilt, I don’t think you have to have guilt. Did you have to cover for your dad as a child? If so, you don’t have to cover any more. You are free now to call a spade a spade. Your dad abused you, your mom allowed it, but you can still love your mom and know her love. It doesn’t have to be either/or. You can acknowledge both the neglect and love.

            I don’t know how you will finally come to terms with this with your mom, but for me I acknowledge my dad was wrong but I still love the good in him. He had plenty of good and it sounds like your mom has good to be loved as well.

            My dad never would have been open to discussing this with me while he was alive but your mom might be open to talking. If she is, you might get some answers to help fill in the blanks for you. If she isn’t open to talking, then maybe you can enjoy the good side of her as much as you can while you still have her. My dad died suddenly so you just never know how long you have them with you.

            As for parenting, it sounds like you are doing fine. You can listen, talk with, acknowledge mistakes, apologize, and most of all you adore your children. Your children will see and feel this. The problem with narc parents isn’t that they make mistakes, it is that they never admit wrong and never correct their ways. All parents make mistakes; it is how the mistakes are dealt with that really count. It reminds me of a story my friend told me of her dad. When she was little, she did something bad and her dad felt he needed to discipline her with corporal punishment, but he accidentally hit her with the sharp edge of his metal belt buckle which broke and bruised her skin causing her to bleed. As soon as he saw that, he felt terribly, apologized, took her out for ice cream and never hit her again. She told me the story with a smile because she knew she could trust her dad even when he messed up. She grew up and maintained a very healthy, loving and respectful relationship with her dad. If her dad had not repaired his wrong as he did, the story could have been one of bitterness and abuse from the girl. As long as you strive to do right and quickly acknowledge and correct any wrongs, you will do alright.

          2. JB says:

            ST,

            Thanks, I appreciate that xx

            I don’t really see the point trying to discuss it with my mum. I know she won’t understand, and I have finally learnt that if someone isn’t ready to hear the message, then there is little point trying to give it..

    2. lickemtomorrow says:

      There is a lot of pain in your comment, ST, and anguish, which on many levels I understand.

      I also understand your comment if a self-reflective one and I’m glad you took the opportunity to vent you spleen.

      I’ve had many of the same thoughts around being the Adult Child of a Narcissist (ACON) and feel deeply aggrieved at my circumstances growing up. In my situation it’s more than likely both my parent’s were narcissists, so there was little chance of ever receiving what I needed as a child. Even a minimal intervention can make a difference, as I think it did for me.

      You are right to feel abandoned in the circumstances. There is nothing else for it sometimes.

      I have felt aggrieved on HG’s behalf in relation to his father and a lack of intervention from him. I often wonder how much of a difference it could have made.

      I also want to comment on the notion of having children with the narcissist.

      We often do not know that we have been entangled with the first narcissist (parent) when we become involved in our next relationship – often romantic – and this leads us to continuing to be ensnared. We have been ‘prepped’, if you like, for these relationships and can’t see the forest for the trees. We don’t know we have been abused and will often seek out familiar relationships because we know no better. In your father’s case it seems he had an opportunity to choose differently going by our description of your grandmother. Having said that, empathic victims are the narcissist’s choice and the reason for that is because empaths can be more easily ensnared due to their nature.

      When it comes to having children with the narcissist, I have three. I did not know he was a narcissist, but I was primed for a relationship with one such as him, though I was fortunate to make my escape early on. The reason for that was I knew the impact of an abusive relationship as a child and did not want my children to suffer the same fate. I am one type of empath, of which there are many, and we will all respond differently to the circumstances. The fact is, many of us are unaware going into relationships and the blindness we experience due to the many manipulations of the narcissist can last a very long time.

      I want to acknowledge your pain and respect the fact you feel as you do and have shared it here. Perhaps you will find an answer to the “why?” here as well, though it’s impossible to know how long the pain from the choices your father made will last. I am sorry you were so let down as a child and can concur with the feeling of being aggrieved. I hope you will find some solace in knowing you are not alone and the truth is we all deserved better.

      1. ST says:

        Lickemtomorrow, thank you for your very thoughtful reply. Yours and Victor’s replies make me realize that some people who get romantically ensnared with a narc did so because they were groomed for nothing less by their narc parents. I can fully understand and sympathize with that. And I am glad you made me aware of that because I was looking at people who got in these relationships through the lens of my dad who did not come from a narc family. He came from a very good family and community. So it just really frustrated me that so many people were “choosing” this life for their children but now I see how sad it is that some people don’t choose it, they are just groomed for it. I can understand that.

        I also respect you for realizing the impact this would have on your children, and then taking action to protect them. I think for an ACON (that’s a new but useful acronym to me), it is very difficult to stand up for yourself and others so what you did for your children is much braver and harder than for the average person because a child of a narc is raised without ever having any power or rights so your action is quite heroic and admirable.

        You said you got out early so I don’t know if your children were old enough to realize or appreciate what you did for them, but I think any ACON knows the trauma you spared your children from is priceless.

        As for the “why” with my dad, “spilling my spleen” was actually very helpful to me. After writing it out, I sat back, thought about it and realized the “why” is like a giant jigsaw puzzle with jumbled, missing, and mismatched pieces that I could spend the rest of my life trying to put together. I realized those years would be better spent on other things so I metaphorically put the lid on the puzzle and said “goodbye” to my dad (for reasons surrounding narcissism I was never able to say goodbye to my dad when he died so my unresolved grief has been going on for 4 years but HG gave me a way to end my grief. Thank you HG!!!!), and I put the puzzle back on the shelf. I don’t put the puzzle on the shelf like a narc. I just put it on the shelf knowing the puzzle is too big and complicated for me, but one day when I see my dad again, I will pull the puzzle off the shelf with my dad, but this time it will be beautifully and perfectly put together and the whys will either be answered or not matter any more. So I am not going to search for the why with my dad anymore. It is okay. I am just going to move on with life.

        However, I am going to read more on HG’s blog because even though my dad’s puzzle I can close, I have other existing narc puzzles that I can’t just put on a shelf to come back to later because the people are alive. But anyway, I am happy because HG gave me a way to say goodbye to a dad I really did love but just couldn’t fully understand.

        And I thank you for taking the time to reply. It was helpful!!!! I wish you and your children well.

        1. lickemtomorrow says:

          ST, thanks for your response and I appreciate the further thoughts you have shared.

          I’m sure every person who has children with a narcissist will have a different story, but I removed my children from his physical proximity (countries) which removed a great deal of the threat he posed. At the same time, I did not attempt to prevent communication between him and the children which has been ongoing. This can sometimes create a dilemma because an element of the facade can be maintained from a distance. Their age also has an impact as they were very young when we initially separated and between 10-14yrs old when I removed them altogether. He had minimal access over the eight years before we left. In the context of that, regardless of his narcissistic behaviours at the time which were quite impactful, he still manages to maintain a relationship with them, the opportunity for which I think distance has created. If they had been subject to the full force of his narcissism throughout their lives up to this point, I’ve no doubt they would be very different children and either have come completely under the thrall of the narcissist or wanted nothing to do with him. For now, they have a ‘happy medium’ type of situation where distance has kept them safe from the worst of narcissism’s effects, but they are not completely cut off from him or extended family in the situation. As adults they can make up their own minds, and they can also judge me. I think each one of them knows in their heart of hearts they would have suffered a much worse fate if I had not made the decision I made, but it pains me to have had to do that to keep them safe.

          I’m so glad you feel you have found a way here, and with HG, to help resolve your grief and put the puzzle aside until you see your father again. It is a puzzle in many ways which can be impossible to solve and here I have found many pieces that helped to make sense of my life. It was the key to unlocking my suffering. There was finally an explanation, and narcissism was it. In my case, it was very insidious and hard to capture to be able to understand. I’m also very grateful to have been handed that key, but not all explanations will be provided in this life.

          For now, I’m happy to hear you see value in continuing to learn more due to other narcissistic entanglements in your life. For empaths, it’s very important to know how to deal with narcissists, as you know from your father’s experience as well.

    3. Joa says:

      ST, I understand you very well. I also do not respect my mother for not being able to live without a specific kind of men, four of whom in particular left a mark on my life. It was her men, her choices! Although I know, that after my father’s suicide, as a 22-year-old widow with two children, without higher education (at the time), she had little room for maneuver, and my stepfather was a very respected and cultured man and he also won our hearts. I do not respect her for the fact, that she ignores, “does not remember” or overly excuses, what happened in our family home.

      The worst thing is not what happened to me as a child (I wanted to and very often I was a shield, because that was “lighter” for me). The worst thing was to watch her get hurt.

      For me, as a child, there was nothing scarier than, for example, hearing my mother moan at night: “It hurts, please don’t”. To see my mom pick up a piece of her own lip from the floor after being hit by my stepfather. And half an hour later at the surgeon’s, and then at my grandmother’s, friends, neighbors’ house, we had to lie that my mother ran into the open wardrobe door. For years, I participated in maintaining facade of the cultural and the intellectual family. I was a child from a very good and wealthy home. Privileged position.

      But, there are other things for which I undoubtedly admire my mother, for fortitude, for steadfastness, for intelligence, for organizational skills, for the power of persuasion. There are many things, that I am grateful to her for (a lot!).

      She told me sadly once: “I think, I don’t know how to love anyone.” I understand her. I know, what she’s been through. But we children had to go through it with her.

      —————–

      Bombing with love is not greed, empty phrases and only pleasure. It’s just the moment, when you believe, that you have finally met someone you can trust, who you can love, who will love you, with whom you will build something intimate, hidden from the world and beautiful. Someone with whom it will finally be safe and warm. Bombing with love is tearing your veins out for the other person, protecting, justifying, giving, giving and giving. It’s me was bombing with love!

      I did everything to keep, my baby safe. I did everything not to be like my mother.

      My child, already a teenager, has a quiet home. No men. No dependency. Without the pressure. Modest (if you compare the conditions in which I grew up).

      I have provided the most normal home, I can, but it’s not a perfect home.

      It is also not easy childhood. It is a very, very difficult start to adult life. Without a strong paternal hand. She is as defenseless as a butterfly. She is like a blank slate. No experience.

      I know, that my child will judge me. I’m sure of it and I’m ready for it.

      History repeats itself.

      It doesn’t matter. I just want her not to suffer. That she would have an ordinary, good life.

      As a mother, I began to recede into the shadows.

      1. ST says:

        Joa, I understand how the worst is hearing and seeing your mother abused. I am the same. Psychologically I could take being abused more than hearing my sister abused. It is horrific to hear/see someone else abused.

        In your case though, with your dad gone, it sounds like you had to witness your only source of security being battered, that must have had a profound effect on your life and sense of security. No child should have to endure that, but congratulations because it sounds like you broke the cycle and didn’t make your child have to go through that. So history did not repeat itself. You stopped the cycle!

        Hence, when your child eventually evaluates/judges you, don’t worry, tell your story, admit your wrongs, fill in the blanks, and you will pass the judgement. If you failed in some areas, let that be a learning curve for your child to do better with your future, precious grandchildren! Children and even adult children are generous in evaluating parents I think. You have not blotted out the good in your mom. I have not blotted out the good in my dad, and even with his one major mistake, I still love him!!! And if I had just known “why” I might have even excused him. Surely your child will recognize your good too.

        Love bombing is a tough one for me because as both a teenager and an adult I have sat and watched men/boys obviously spewing out a bunch of garbage to a girl who just wants to be loved so she laps it all up. I sit there and see what is going on, I watch the girl fall for his spell and eventually get hurt and thrown out like a piece of trash. I have had many men try it on me to no avail. To me it is so fake it is obvious. Thus, it is a turn off. Therefore, I see anyone who falls for it as desperate and greedy for love.

        Now is it wrong to desperately want love? I don’t think so, so I do feel some compassion for anyone who falls for this. However, it becomes wrong when someone falls for it with the wrong person and that person enters or affects an innocent child’s life. As you so accurately stated, “her men, her choices”. If a man/woman wants to be used and abused, that is their choice, but leave children out of it.

        As for picking the wrong person, the problem I see is basically anyone who uses the tactic of love bombing IS the wrong person!!! And anyone who is falling for this, is blindly grasping for love.

        Did my dad fall for love bombing? I don’t know, but if he did, I would think him foolish. He had everything to know better. If you fell for love bombing, you didn’t have the same stability and solid home like my dad did so I would say you just didn’t have the same tools to see what was happening to you and you would perhaps feel more of a need for love than my dad. My dad was surrounded by genuine love. It sounds like you didn’t have all that love, support and security like my dad did. Anyway, I don’t want to throw my deceased dad under the bus. He made his mistake, but he is human and I have made my fair share of mistakes too so I can’t be too critical. All we can do it make the best of it and learn from the mistakes. It sounds like you have done that by trying to make better decisions for your child. I commend you for that!!!! And wish you both well!

      2. A Victor says:

        Hi Joa,

        I’ve been wanting to say on your comment here that the sacrifice we make for our children while they’re still with us is one of high value in my mind. You recede for a while but you will be back, out of the shadows, before you realize it, and your daughter will be better for the choices you have made. I hope I am understanding your comment the way you intended it, if so it is a sacrifice I also made and I, now being on the other side of it, am glad to have done so. You are wise and a good mother.

    4. njfilly says:

      Hi ST:

      Interesting comment, and I have a similar situation as well as feelings to vent.

      Both my parents are narcissists, and I only recently came to the conclusion that my mother used me as bait to my father so she did not have to deal with him. I often thought this was happening, but I didn’t understand narcissists and I didn’t want to believe my own mother would do this to her child, so I was in denial. I now know that I was correct about what was happening. I often have very good intuition that in the past I have ignored. I no longer ignore my gut instincts.

      I also want to vent something. Throughout my life when I have viewed pictures or videos of, for example, a child who gets into something they shouldn’t; say the kitchen cupboard with the flour. Then the child is covered in flour and there is flour all over the floor, and the parents take a photo or video laughing about it. They think it’s funny and, oh well, kids will be kids. Well, these scenarios used to infuriate me. I would think that the child should be monitored, and how misbehaved this child must be. Wasn’t he given any guidelines? Does he not have any parent watching him so he doesn’t get into this kind of trouble? Doesn’t he know any better, because even as a child I know that spreading flour on the floor is wrong. I would feel intense anger about the situation. Even resentment. I have only recently begun to understand why. I feel resentment that the child is allowed to be a child and make stupid mistakes and be creative (even if messy) during play, and have a carefree childhood, when I was denied this. We were rarely allowed any carefree moments and were always expected to not cause any trouble so as to not disturb our parents, lest they have to take responsibility for teaching us anything. I feel resentment and sadness that I was denied this kind of happy carefree childhood. I wonder who I would be today if I had been able to be carefree, and fun, and creative and just dance in the wind, and paint on the walls, etc. Instead, I spent a lot of my time hiding and avoiding my parents because I was afraid of them, and all I felt was fear and anxiety. Admittedly, there were good times. It was not 100% bad. I’m sure ACONS can understand what I am saying.
      Now, when I see these photos my feelings have softened and I think, lucky kid that is to have understanding parents who celebrate his creative energy and youthfulness, even if he has made a mess. I often wonder what kind of parent I would have been, as I have no children. I don’t believe I would have been abusive, but I do think maybe I might have been overly strict. I would have wanted to raise them into independent, capable adults and give them the guidance I never received, but this might have been at the expense of their playfulness. I do have a playful side, however, so I can’t say this with certainty. I may have wanted my children to experience what I didn’t. I know for sure I would not have abused them as I would never want a child to go through what I did.
      When it comes to animals, well they can make a mess, and get in the garbage, and tear apart the newspaper and I never get mad! I completely accept their playfulness!

      1. WhoCares says:

        NJfilly,

        That was an interesting comment. Especially, what you shared about watching a child play in a mess of flour:

        “I would feel intense anger about the situation. Even resentment. I have only recently begun to understand why. I feel resentment that the child is allowed to be a child and make stupid mistakes and be creative (even if messy) during play, and have a carefree childhood, when I was denied this.”

        “Now, when I see these photos my feelings have softened and I think, lucky kid that is to have understanding parents who celebrate his creative energy and youthfulness, even if he has made a mess.”

        There are things that I occasionally resent my child for but never for being his exuberant self. As a parent, I actually derive a lot of joy from watching him being silly, energetic and passionate about the things he cares for. I think it is partly, like you, because I wasn’t necessarily allowed to be that way as a child myself. Or perhaps it is partly due to my empathic make up and finding validation through my son’s joy and zest for life. A little bit like living vicariously through…but it gives me pleasure knowing that I haven’t squelched that part of him. Also, lets me know that – despite making errors as a parent – maybe, just maybe, I have done something right along the way.

      2. ST says:

        I am sorry you had 2 narc parents. I can’t imagine what that was like. One narc parent is enough to do tremendous damage. Two seems like that would have the potential of doing total damage. What one didn’t destroy the other would. I am glad you survived it.

        I can relate to what you wrote about not being able to experience a carefree childhood because you were too anxious and afraid to be carefree. Part of being a carefree child is being able to make little mistakes and messes. Most kids, like pets, make messes without it being intentional or malicious. It is just the way they are. A good parent knows this and gently teaches the child how to do things without making big messes and when they make a mess how to clean it up. A narc parent just doesn’t allow opportunity to make messes to begin with and if one is made then the child is ridiculed or chastised. The result is the child becomes deprived of the joyful, carefree part of childhood which is curiosity and exploration. I learned very early on not to touch things, make messes, or ask questions which meant I was a VERY well behaved child, but that came at the expense of getting to experience curislity which leads to discovering ones own gifts, talents, likes/dislikes, and developing good boundaries. In other words, it lets a child develop their own individuality which is forbidden by a narc parent so the child is strictly controlled instead.

        Like you and probably every ACON, we all have had to unlearn a lot of what we were taught as a child. Most children go into adulthood with things they were taught that prepares them well for life. ACONs, we have to go into adulthood and start unlearning what we were taught!

        As for an ACON becoming a parent, I think almost all ACONs will have shortcomings when it comes to parenting simply because our childhoods were so dysfunctional. We didn’t learn healthy anything! I think that is the first thing every ACON should acknowledge.

        The second thing is who are we attracted to? If an ACON is attracted to narcs we should either stop dating until we address and fix this problem or we should resolve not to have children. I would consider a vasectomy or hysterectomy in order for anyone who likes to be in narc relationships. It sounds harsh but no child should be put through that. It is just cruel and abusive.

        However, if an ACON chooses healthy relationships, I do think we can be adequate and loving parents with work. We just have to seek out and learn the right child rearing tools before having children.

        Do you regret not having children or do you feel it was a good decision? Do you feel your parents deprived you of being a parent because of your dysfunctional upbringing?

        1. lickemtomorrow says:

          ST, I read your response to NJfilly and sense your ongoing anger at your parent/s.

          I notice you are also suggesting ACON’s are not capable of establishing themselves as ‘adequate’ loving parents without work or learning the ‘right child rearing tools before having children.’ I fundamentally disagree, and you are fortunate to have discovered HG’s work before you could make the ‘mistake’ of becoming a parent it seems.

          What a broad brush you like to paint with and make assumptions about all ACONs.

          ACONs are essentially NOT the unhealthy ones, and although we may be damaged that’s not an indication of inadequacy on our part. We are all capable of being vulnerable to narcissists, it’s the narcissists who are the inadequate parents and who foment the difficulties for the empathic parent.

          An ensnared empath will suffer and potentially their children will suffer, too.

          First there needs to be a recognition of that ensnarement and then the necessary understanding/education and supports put into place to enable the empath to break free of that ensnarement. The reality is that is an addiction, and in that sense it is often not a matter of choice as we are drawn to what we know. More often than not we won’t know that’s a narcissist.

          I doubt there are many people who ‘enjoy’ being involved with narcissists.

          1. ST says:

            Lickemtomorrow, you said “an ensnared empath will suffer and potentially their children too”. That statement encapsulates exactly the problem I see. The empath parent primarily only sees themselves as the victim and focuses on their misery and suffering while dismissing or downplaying the abuse of the child. If the parent for one second considered all the abuse, suffering and long term affects that having a narc parent would have on a child, they would NEVER have a child with the narc. An ACON should know this more than anyone else.

          2. lickemtomorrow says:

            ST, indeed I did say that and in reading your initial comment I had a different impression of the problem as you see it.

            You mention the problem as you see it in your next sentence: “The empath parent primarily only sees themselves as the victim and focuses on their misery and suffering while dismissing or downplaying the abuse of the child.”

            I did read the whole of your comment in the context of you being a victim and how resilience is assumed on the part of a child, or they are not assumed to be AS affected, and therefore are overlooked in terms of support and recognition. I am not going to disagree with you on that, although I think much greater recognition is finally being given to children who are impacted in the context of damaging family relationships. Children are finally being ‘seen’.

            Going to your next point: “If the parent for one second considered all the abuse, suffering and long term affects that having a narc parent would have on a child, the would NEVER have a child with the narc. An ACON should know this more than anyone else”

            More often than not an ACON doesn’t know they are an ACON. They will have established family relationships which blind them to what they are and who their parent is. Many times it will take decades for an ACON to become aware they have been the victim of a narcissistic parent, sometimes well into their 50′, 60’s 70’s even. I’ve read so many comments by older people indicating they had no idea, although they would have sensed something was not right about their relationship with their parent/s. When you say ACONs should know, it’s a guarantee for the most part that they have been gaslit to the point of believing they themselves are the problem, not the parent, and may well take on the mantle you have tried to cover them with, which is that of ‘unfit’ person/parent. I see that as victim blaming, though I understand you have your own reasons and experiences for feeling the way you do.

            You may feel strongly about having children yourself because you realise how affected you have been by the dynamic in your family. You recognise yourself as an ACON, and if you’re lucky you have come to that conclusion early on. Not for a moment would that understanding have prevented me from having children or given rise to the thought I might be an ‘inadequate’ parent because of my own childhood experiences. It often leads empaths in the opposite direction where they understand what was lacking in their own parenting experience and they will naturally do the opposite, or have an inherent ability to understand as an empath what is required.

            I draw the line at the assumption that people willingly walk into these relationships and on top of that have no consideration for their children in the midst of them. People get involved in relationships because they are UNAWARE, not because they are AWARE, and thus the parent is a victim of the narcissist as much as the child is a victim of the narcissist. This lack of awareness prevents them from understanding the dynamic of the narcissistic relationship and the dynamic of the narcissistic relationship is what keeps them bound. HG has a great deal of material here that helps us to both understand the ensnarement as well as the knowledge of how to defeat or overcome it. More often than not, it’s not just a simple equation of knowing before we become ensnared so that we can possibly avoid it.

            I do agree avoidance of narcissistic relationships is the best case scenario. To be able to do that we need to have an understanding of narcissism. Many are not gifted with that understanding until they have lived many decades and experienced the fallout from that. It doesn’t make them ‘inadequate’ parents. It makes them victims of the narcissist who take on an enormous task in parenting children to the best of their ability in spite of the odds against them. Most of us would wish in hindsight to have the knowledge we have now, but most likely the majority of us who are empaths have sacrificed enormously for our children and not given any less consideration to their needs.

            I think it’s important to make a distinction between ‘selfish’ and ‘unaware’.

          3. Leigh says:

            ST, I wasn’t going to say anything but I’m feeling a little feisty today. No one in their right mind would choose to be ensnared by a narcissist. What usually happens is you find out later that they’re a narcissist and at that point you already love this person so its hard to leave. But enough about that. What really got my goat here was your audacity to say,

            “The empath parent primarily only sees themselves as the victim and focuses on their misery and suffering while dismissing or downplaying the abuse of the child.”

            That is a blatant lie. The empaths I know, don’t see themselves as victims and don’t focus on their misery and suffering. Its quite the opposite. They see themselves as survivors and focus on the good things in their life and trying to keep peace. They certainly do not dismiss or downplay the abuse of a child.

            I’m sorry that happened to you. I’m sorry your father didn’t protect you. But its not ok to make a blanket statement like that.

            Believe it or not, I understand what you are trying to say but your delivery is way off.

          4. A Victor says:

            Hi Leigh,

            This is interesting, I also understand the point, and I even agree with it, to a degree, but to use such broad statements at so many people when one person is the only one who can be controlled, there is a problem with that.

          5. ST says:

            A Victor, you have a right to your opinion and I am not nor was I trying to silence your opinion. All I was saying was others have a right to our opinions as well even if that opinion is unpopular or goes against the grain.

            A child of a narc grows up always having to cover for and protect their parents reputation and feelings at the expense of their own feelings and well being. I am sure you can relate to that. But an ACON should not have to continue this cycle of covering for everyone. Why must an ACON tip toe around empath’s feelings that might get hurt if an ACON says the truth that having a child with a narc is not a good thing? Should I deny my entire life experience to tip toe around empath’s feelings.

            I find that hypocritical. Empaths take no offense at other empaths calling their narcs “monsters”, “evil”, “wicked”, “demonic”, etc., but when an ACON says their good parent was responsible for abuse, that is intolerable and inappropriate and causes great upset. That makes no sense to me. I never called my dad “evil”, but an empath is free to call someone evil. I never called my dad a monster, but empaths are free to call someone a monster. I never called my dad demonic, but empaths call call people demonic. Why? The empath feels justified due to the abuse they received. Well, I received the same or worse abuse because of my dad. The abuse I received by an empath’s definition would make my dad demonic and evil until they realize it was the good parent and then it must be hushed. The good parent cannot be questioned. The good parent must be viewed and pitied by the ACON and society as an innocent victim. That is just as controlling as the narc telling us what to think and feel. I have a right to say my dad contributed to my abuse. It is just a fact.

            I understand it is a touchy topic, but again it is not personal against you or anyone else here. If someone has had a child with a narc. I don’t wish bad on that person. I never wished bad on my dad. I loved him! I could see the good in him and I give him full credit for all the good that was in him. I am not castigating all people who have children with narcs as evil. I am not saying you personally were a bad parent. I am happy you were able to raise your children well, and I wish you well. I don’t mean to hurt you or ruin your day. The post was my vent and I opened my OP with that warning that I was about to vent on a touchy topic. I got it out of my system something that I had carried for decades. It was really just to sort out my own thoughts and feelings about what had happened to me and all the unanswered questions I had when my father passed and the hurt and pain my father left on me and my sister after he died (that is a long story that I will not share here). Anyway, I wish you well.

          6. A Victor says:

            ST,

            I would not try to say you’re not entitled to your own opinion, I just disagree with your opinion. Nothing more.

            No one needs to tiptoe, we’re not children. I have not tiptoed around you.

            I take no issue with you calling your dad anything you wish, or anyone else calling anyone anything they wish. I take no issue with you questioning your dad. Frankly, if my dad were the way you describe yours, I would run him through a Narc Detector, just to rule that possibility out. As I said, my dad was pretty sweet in some ways, still a narc.

            What I took issue with was your assertion that we choose narcs intentionally and knowingly, proceed to have children against your better judgement for all, allow our children to be abused and then call ourselves the victims while ignoring our children’s needs. All of this is offensive and also false for most empaths.

            I am coming to realize that this is going to continue however, and I think I understand why. That said, I am going to stop here.

          7. lickemtomorrow says:

            AV, well said and I think I understand why, too. Appreciate your input in this discussion. Many people are burdened with enough guilt, and as empaths we often take that on willingly. We are fortunate if we can get to a place where we see that is what is happening and resist with all our might.

          8. A Victor says:

            LET, yes, thank you for bringing out the factor of guilt here, that is an interesting observation and one that I am glad to be made aware of. As I said below, or above ;), I have very much appreciated your input in this as well. You are very good at it also, I am learning.

          9. lickemtomorrow says:

            AV, what came to my mind after seeing further commentary here from other empaths was HG’s article about guilt – “Your Wear Guilt”:

            https://narcsite.com/2022/04/16/you-wear-guilt-20/

            Any empath who has been affected by the conversation should go to it and read it again.

            Standout sentence for me: “I make the noose control you.”

            Take it off if you are wearing it. It serves no purpose except to exacerbate the narcissist’s control.

          10. A Victor says:

            Yes, LET, this was interesting to me. I had not recognized guilt among the emotions I had during this conversation but k mac’s comment about mom guilt (paraphrased), did sink in as time went on and i did finally get to the place where I could pick it out. I think for me, I’ve heard for mom’s in general, guilt is just there. I know I fail and did fail. I never wanted to, but try as I might, I knew I couldn’t do it perfectly, so the guilt is there. Interesting thing to realize. My initial reaction to that part of k mac’s comment was “No, I don’t have guilt.” But I can see it now and I can let go of that. I will for sure go read that article again, thank you for the reminder of it. Thank you for your comment.

          11. lickemtomorrow says:

            AV, I don’t feel guilt, though I do feel regret at my children’s experiences on many levels. The guilt belongs to my ex-husband, the narcissist, not me. Of course, we know the narcissist will not experience any form of guilt, good for them. And they will definitely try to place that noose around our necks. The blame shifting and projection never end.

            Here’s a little snippet I found on the difference between guilt and regret:

            “Guilt. Many suggest guilt occurs when we do something that we know is wrong while we are doing it, typically for ethical, moral, or legal reasons.

            Regret, on the other hand, is the emotion we experience when we look back on an action and feel we should or could have done something differently. It differs from guilt in that we didn’t know or feel at the time that we were doing something wrong, or we didn’t actually have control over the situation.”

            I hope that might bring some further comfort. I regret, but I don’t carry guilt or shame. That belongs to the narcissist and that is what the narcissist will try to project onto us.

          12. A Victor says:

            Ah, LET, that does help! Thank you!!

          13. lickemtomorrow says:

            🙂 Good to know, AV.

        2. A Victor says:

          ST,

          There is likely no one who would say, “I like to be in narc relationships” once they understand about them. There are many who do not know that they are drawn to narcs, I didn’t know it when I was having my children, they are ACONs. They are happy to be alive, they are doing well, I am glad that I had them despite my intention not to. The reason I did not want to have them was the massive amount of energy I knew it would take to literally consciously do everything the opposite of what my parents had done. But, because I am an empath and realized this is what had to happen for them to have their best life, despite the fact that I was married to a narcissist, I did it. Yes, it sucked at times, it was extremely tiring, it was a massive thing to do and is not for everyone. But it is possible. I believe there are other ACON empaths here who have also raised children as ACONs, because the other parent is or was a narcissist, and consider their efforts successful. I do not consider my efforts “adequate”; I consider them highly successful. Not perfect, no child with “normal/healthy” parents or not will leave home 100 percent ready to face all challenges life will throw at him or her, but still, highly successful. And I did not do my learning how to child rear prior to having children, I did it on the fly while raising them, with the heart of an empath knowing what I believed would be in the best interest of my children, even when it wasn’t the easiest thing to do. There is not a parent of the planet who knows how to handle every situation that can arise perfectly, we, as empaths can step up and do it as well as any, even if we’re still married to the narcissist. Will the child(ren) be affected by the narc, yes. Will every empathic parent step up, no, but we do at least have it in us if we decide to. I envy you having a father with empathy, at least you had an example of what that looks like in your home, in front of you, all the time, I never had anyone to show me, as such parenting was a completely in the dark adventure, and it was still one that I consider to be the most important and productive things I have invested my life into. I completely understand people, ACONs or others, choosing not to have children, that was my original plan, I understand it and support it if it that person’s decision. But because there are empaths here who are parents, many of whom are still in the midst of childrearing and who we would do well to lift up and support, I wanted to throw some encouragement out, we can parent very successfully, and we often do.

          1. ST says:

            A Victor, I think you have misunderstood me. I did say I think an ACON can raise children adequately with love. I absolutely believe that. Maybe the word “adequate” bothered you? What I meant was sufficient and that would include successful. Sufficient is good. It isn’t perfect but it deserves a passing grade. Successful is superb. Not everyone even children from good functional homes are going to be successful so I didn’t use that word. I think adequate/sufficient is a better and more realistic word for any parent (ACON or not) but if you differ, I accept that.

            However, I think anyone who was raised by a narc should take some time before having children because there is a lot of dysfunction to untangle. I am an ACON so I am not just pointing fingers at others. I am talking about myself too. I don’t put myself above other ACONs. My heart goes out to every ACON because I know the abuse, and that is why I don’t want the cycle to continue. I don’t want other children throughout the world to unnecessarily go through what I went through or what other ACONs have gone through. I would say the same thing to someone involved with a drug addict or alcoholic—-“don’t have children with that person!” It should be common sense. The child is going to pay the price for the good parent’s decision to have a child with that person.

            I know it sounds harsh but my beliefs are firm on this. To put a child through abuse because one wants a child is just cruel and irresponsible. As soon as one sees the red flags, that’s when they should decide either to stay with the narc and not have children or get out.

            Yes, I agree that I was blessed to have one good parent. I can’t imagine what it would be like to have two narcs as parents. However, the downside of having one good parent is it really messes with your mind because you see the one parent is truly a good person yet they let you be abused. This makes no sense. A good person should not just stand there and allow abuse and the destruction of the home. So you learn you can’t rely on that parent either. You feel alone, helpless, and defenseless. It is a very warped message to a child to see good standing up for evil. Nevertheless, I am glad I did have an example of good in my life. My dad was a good man.

            Back to parenthood, I think if ACONs only see the problem in their narc parents, there is a blind spot. I think we should be honest with ourselves and recognize our upbringings will affect our later lives including parenting. To deny this is unhealthy. To face it means we can avoid problems.

            As for people saying they like to be in narc relationships, you would be surprised. I have been reading comments from the beginning of this blog and HG openly says he is a narc, he sees everyone as an appliance and he treats all his women badly. BUT there were still women blatantly and repeatedly throwing themselves at him. Others were quite flirtatious! He lays the cards on the table that he will abuse and discard them, but they still want him! I forgot the word but Sam Vaknin has a clinical word for these people. He said they are ONLY attracted to narcs. Sam has been married for a long time and his wife is happy with him. She doesn’t want to leave him. Some people genuinely like being in narc relationships. I think my dad was one of those people. To his dying day he always professed his love for my mom. I will never understand that but I do respect the love my dad had and Sam’s wife has. The difference is Sam and his wife knew not to have children.

            As for you personally, I am glad you have successfully raised your children. And A Victor, I like you. I like reading your posts. I enjoyed listening to your interview with HG so please don’t take my comments personally. My original post I put a disclaimer at the top that those involved in romantic relationships with narcs might get hurt if they read it my post. I forewarned people. But don’t you think ACONs have a right to voice our pain too? My case is different from yours because you had two narc parents, but in my case part of my pain was from my good parent. Do I not have a right to voice that? As much as I love my dad, I feel he carries just as much guilt as my mom. I feel he was a part of the narc abuse. I think as an ACON who suffered a lot of abuse along with my sister that I have a right to those feelings. Under my childhood narc roof I was not allowed to express that. I was not allowed to say I was abused. Now it feels like again some people here don’t want that aired out or expressed. But it is what it is. That was my experience and I do feel my good parent was 50% responsible. And if as a stranger others don’t want that expressed, what are they conveying to their children? Just blame the narc but never blame me? I am the innocent victim? What if they child does feel the good parent carries some guilt and is not completely innocent? Maybe instead of getting upset, parents can see this as a learning opportunity.

            I can support parents on other posts, but this is MY post about MY dad and MY feelings and MY experience (yes that sounds narcissistic to say MY MY MY. I know, but I grew up never getting to say MY so I want to say it now. My OP was a vent which is stated at the beginning so allow me to say MY in a follow up to my vent.). If you started a post about your children, I would not get on your post and say “you should not have had children with a narc”. That would be rude. But in my OP I was saying my dad should not have had ME. Don’t I have the right to say that about myself? Don’t I have the right to say I don’t wish any child to be brought into the world with a narc parent? And if you read HG’s blog he says narcs can’t love and they abuse people so if someone has a child with a narc that child isn’t going to get love and the child will be abused. It is very clear cut and simple to me. HG is right. ACONs can have children and be can be good parents, but just don’t have them with a narc is all I am saying. For those who have already had children, then A Victor you are an example to them of how to love, support, and raise your children despite the narc.

          2. A Victor says:

            Holy crap, where to even start here.

            I take this very personal, for me and every other ACON who has children with a narc.

            I don’t care if you have “liked” me, that has no bearing on me taking this personally or not. In my opinion, you are way over your bounds stating much of what you have here.

            No one here has said anything about you not being allowed to speak your mind and yet you read my comment and want to shut me down. Fuck that. I am and I was a great parent, now I am an awesome grandma also.

            How did anything in any of my comments lead you to the conclusion that I did not realize how my own upbringing would affect my children??? Did you not read that I wasn’t going to have any?? Did you not understand that? But when they came along, I did just fine, largely BECAUSE I understood the huge gaps I had. All people have blind spots, nothing new there.

            I didn’t “misunderstand” anything and I’m not “surprised” by anything. I myself have flirted shamelessly with HG, he is a safe person to do so with and I will not apologize for that. As I have come to understand more, I have not chosen to continue, not because anyone said anything to me, only that my understanding of how narcissism affects people became more evident. Perhaps these people you speak of were in the throes of that. Perhaps they haven’t been ensnared, or haven’t realized they have, who knows. Once people really get it, they would not choose it.

            You had a good parent, sure, he wasn’t perfect, but are you “adequate”, are you “sufficient”? FWIW, my siblings hated my dad for allowing the abuse from our mother, I saw it as her fault. He was a narc also, but the “kinder and gentler” one of the two, so, like your dad, he was at fault in their minds. Big deal.

            I don’t give a rat’s ass about how “firm” your belief is, mine is different and just as strongly held.

            I never claim to “own” a post here, once I submit it, it becomes the property of HG
            Tudor, to do with as he desires. He allowed my comment in reply to yours. Deal with it.

          3. k mac says:

            A Victor
            This is such a loaded subject. As mother’s the guilt we carry is immense. We do our very best and never intentionally harm our babies.
            I know that I’m a mess. I know that the abuse I endured growing up has shaped me. I almost didn’t have children because I was so afraid of failure. That I would mess them up. I decided to have them anyway hoping that I would break the cycle for future generations.
            Did I? Nope. I believe my oldest is a narcissist. I don’t want to admit it but I’m almost certain. My husband and I are both empaths and still…. My middle daughter is an almost copy of me(poor thing). My youngest is normal. I cry myself to sleep at night because I don’t know what to do.
            All we can do is get up everyday and show up for them. Tell them we love them and be there for them. My heart goes out to you all. The struggle is real. ❤

          4. A Victor says:

            k mac,
            Yes, very loaded, thank you for your kind words. “We do our very best and never intentionally harm our babies.” This says it all. Thank you! And also for sharing your experience raising children a bit. We and they are never going to be “perfect” but we still just do our best. We get up everyday and show up for them, tell them we love them and be there, exactly. Thank you.

          5. lickemtomorrow says:

            Beautifully and very honestly stated.

          6. A Victor says:

            Thank you LET, since I am not certain which comment you are replying to, the one just above, or below depending on where you’re looking from, the one I wrote in response to k mac was mostly quotes from her excellent comment above (or below) mine. If it is another you were meaning, thank you, very much. I sometimes press send with shaking hands. Your comments in this discussion have meant much to me also, thank you!

          7. lickemtomorrow says:

            AV, this is the comment I was replying to with my comment:

            “There is likely no one who would say, “I like to be in narc relationships” once they understand about them.”

            Thank you for giving me the chance to clarify.

            Regardless of if your hands are shaking with anxiety or anger (I’m more likely to be the latter of those), you have given worthy responses which resonate with me, and many others I’m sure.

            Thank you, too <3

          8. A Victor says:

            LET, shaking from both, I do not like conflict, I do not like who I’ve become with regard to it either, going be dealing with that. But I do have limits apparently, on certain topics anyway. Thank you for clarifying and for being so encouraging.

          9. lickemtomorrow says:

            AV, happy to offer my support.

        3. njfilly says:

          Hi ST,

          Thank you for your response. I grew up in a very dysfunctional household. There was no love and support, just abuse, neglect, and belittlement. I recall thinking when I was young, trying to determine which parent I liked the best, and I couldn’t decide because really, I liked neither. Well maybe I should say I didn’t like how they treated me, but I loved them because they were my parents. I would think, “well, I need them both”. I needed my mother for support when my father was abusing me, and I needed my father for support when my mother was neglecting me. Although in reality, I never really received any support from either. This is just the way a child thinks.

          I wouldn’t say I was a well-behaved child because I did many things that I should not have done, but I never really caused any problems either due to misbehaving, particularly at home. I was definitely a mature child. Always very mature for my age, and this helped me tremendously. I specifically recall once when my father was being mean to me, I instinctively knew that I was receiving the same treatment he received as a child, and I felt compassion for him. I was out on the streets doing things I should not have been doing but doing them maturely if you can understand this. I always made it home for school the next day. I never got drunk and passed out or got sick. I never drank beyond my ability to handle it or get myself home safely, even though I was drinking underage.

          I never had kids because I couldn’t find a man I wanted to marry and have kids with, but I did want them, and I also wanted to be a stay-at-home mother. I knew in my heart that I would teach my children all the things I was never taught. I often thought that I was not even taught how to be a human being. How to dress myself, or feed myself, or speak and think for myself. Very bizarre. I agree with you that narcissist parents do not properly teach their children, and now I am unlearning everything I learned, but these are not things I was specifically taught. They were more just the fallback positions, or dysfunctional ways I learned and used to cope. Maybe that is what you meant.

          I used to cut school often, even though I enjoyed my music classes and got good grades, but I just didn’t want to be there. I assume just because I was anxious and confused about my life. My mother would say to me, “well, if you cut school you will have to deal with the consequences’, but she never really explained anything or helped me to understand it. She just gave me, as a child, the responsibility for myself. I often thought that it was like she bought a manual on how to raise children and gave it to me to read so I could raise myself, and I did. This could have backfired in a major way, having implications that would have affected me for my entire life. I often thought, I could have been beaten, kidnapped, overdosed, gotten pregnant, etc. I’m very lucky I was mature, and very conscientious. I saved myself due to this.

          I do not regret not having children at all. When I read some stories on this blog from mothers dealing with their narc spouses, I am thankful. I can’t imagine how difficult that must be, but those mothers don’t seem to regret anything, which is good. I’m sure they all love their children and do the best they can for them. I’m also thankful because I could be dealing with a narc child at this point. Generally, I have no regrets and I am happy with the way my life turned out now. I’m thinking about a new pet soon, and that suits me fine!

          1. ST says:

            Njfilly, it sounds like you have had quite a life. I am glad it has turned out well.

          2. njfilly says:

            Hi ST:
            I have read some of the conversations surrounding your initial comment. It is difficult to keep track and I don’t want to get that deeply involved. I just want to say I can understand why you feel the way you do. I consider that maybe it would be more difficult having one narcissist parent, and one non-narcissist parent due to the feelings of resentment and betrayal you have toward the non-narcissist parent about them not stopping the abuse. I think this is similar to what I was trying to convey in my comment when I stated I was trying to determine which parent I liked. Which parent would protect me from the abuse of the other? Well, neither of them did. Maybe it was easier having no expectations of either of them.
            I also feel resentment, betrayal, and sometimes hatred, but only intermittently now and it has been waning in recent years. I hope you get to that point because I feel so much mental relief. Now that I understand narcissism I am letting go of those negative emotions, and I can move forward. I feel freedom now.
            I also sympathize with the mothers on this blog who are co-parenting with narcissists. Unfortunately, they married and had children prior to their awareness. Unless there is outward physical abuse, how do they even prove the children are being abused? When I think back to my narcissist boyfriend, and how difficult it was trying to explain to friends what was going on without sounding crazy and petty. The explanations sounded like; “Well I did this, then he did this, then I said this, then he said……” It is exhausting and difficult to explain devaluing behaviors to outsiders. When you take the NDC you don’t have to explain the details of what happened. HG Tudor recommends that you use The Devil’s Toolkit and identify the manipulations directly that are being used against you. I was thankful for that, and it made the NDC much easier. I think The Devil’s Toolkit may be under recognized for its value. It would be a good idea for family courts to use it, besides becoming more educated about narcissistic abuse.
            I don’t agree that ACONS should not have children simply because they are ACONS. As an example, my mother (who is a narcissist, as were her parents) grew up with an alcoholic father, so therefore she never drank and warned us about the dangers of drinking in order to counteract what she experienced as a child. One thing she did right. I want to reemphasize that my reasons for not having children had nothing to do with my abuse or trauma. Everybody is shaped by their childhood. Should the human race die out? Who are the non-traumatized people that we should leave all procreation to them? Do they even exist? I personally don’t know anybody who did not experience trauma in their childhood.
            I understand your feelings that it is wrong to knowingly birth a child into an abusive situation. (I used the word “wrong”; I forget what word you used in this situation). I think “knowingly” may be the determinative word, and I agree with you to a point, but all situations are different and it’s impossible to be able to foresee all the variations, nuances, and complexities involved in human interactions.
            I empathize with you, I really do. I think I may be older than you which is why I am beginning to heal from my resentment, etc. If I had knowledge of narcissism long ago, my healing would have started sooner and maybe would be done by now. Perhaps that is good luck for you that you have found the truth that will set you free.
            I do wish peace for you. You have suffered a lot and are still suffering.

          3. ST says:

            Njfilly, I agree with a lot of what you wrote, but I want to clarify a few things:

            1) I don’t resent my dad even though I can understand how my vent would across as resentment. It was a vent after all!! I love my dad.

            My primary feelings towards my dad was deep hurt, confusion, unloved (that goes with the confusion) and greatly diminished respect. However, getting this vent out has made me feel much better. I don’t think I will ever understand why my dad would marry my mom and have children with her, but after writing this I now feel satisfied to just let it rest and stop chasing after questions I can never find an answer to. I believe in an afterlife so after writing this I felt at peace with just accepting if I need to know the answers I will know in the next life when I see him; otherwise life will be so wonderful on the other side that it will not matter anymore. Either way is win-win as I see it.

            2) As for the moms who have had children with a narc on here, I found some of them to be a little toxic or passive aggressive so I can’t coddle them. I gave a fair warning before I started my vent that if one has been in a romantic relationship with a narc this might be hurtful to them so maybe they should not read it. I made it clear that I was venting on a touchy subject. I did that to protect them. I began my post with their feelings in mind. I didn’t start this thread to hurt anyone. I started it to sort out my own long term hurt and confusion. I will concede that maybe HG’s blog was not the best place to sort it out, but the topic was on parental narcs so it seemed at the time an appropriate place, maybe I was wrong there. I can accept that.

            However, some of the responses I received only made me feel more strongly that my dad was wrong when I saw some non-narc parents undermining the abuse a child of a narc experiences or dismissing their contributions to the abuse . I feel like my dad would have been in the same denial as them and that is partly why I believe my dad is equally responsible for my abuse. They only confirmed to me my dad’s guilt.

            Non-narc parents may have no regrets in having children to help them cope with the narc, but what about the children’s feelings who must be used as the buffer or comforter for the non-narc parent!

            3). Somewhere in this long thread, my words got twisted into me saying ACONs should not have children and will be inadequate parents. I never said either of these things. I said no one should have children with a narc. I still stand by that. My whole OP was my dad who was NOT an ACON should not have had children with a narc. I also wrote that ACONs can be adequate to successful parents but I think it is wise to take some time before an ACON goes straight from the narc home to parenthood. If a psychiatrist tells someone who just got out of a bad marriage to take some time to reflect and heal before jumping into another marriage, people generally think that is good advise but for me to say an ACON who was raised in dysfunction and abuse should take a little time to reflect and heal before jumping straight from the narc home into parenthood, that is twisted into ACONs should not be parents because they would only be inadequate.

            I am not saying you twisted my words. I am just saying somewhere in this thread my words got twisted. I would like to think it was not done on purpose but nonetheless it happened.

            With that cleared up, I do thank you for your kind thoughts and I wish you well too.

        4. ST says:

          Leigh, I said that in reply to this statement — “an ensnared empath will suffer and potentially their children too”. That is placing the empath in the position of the victim and it is downplaying or dismissing the suffering of the child. “Potentially”! Narcs don’t love. Narcs do abuse so how can a child only “potentially suffer”. It is completely putting the parent’s feelings and needs above the child.

          The child doesn’t just suffer from the narc’s direct abuse. If the narc is abusing others in the family, this also causes trauma to the child who must watch and hear helplessly. More than the abuse I received myself, it was even harder for me to hear and see the abuse on my sister. This terrified me.

          And the abuse doesn’t end there. If one has a good parent, the good parent has to neglect the children because the narc requires ALL the attention. And I would not be surprised if the good parent has little left to give the child after pouring everything into the narc.

          And the abuse continues if one has a good parent, it is torment to see good standing up for evil. I never wanted to come between my parents. I never wanted my dad to pick me over my mom. I felt security in my dad loving my mom, at least I could see love somewhere. I just wanted him to protect me and my sister.

          And the abuse goes on. Because one parent is good, they stand by the narc so the family looks perfect on the outside. So the child must live a constant lie. People often tell the child how lucky they are to have this narc mom and the good parent never will reveal the truth. The good parent helps keep the child silent and entrapped by their own enabling of the narc. The good parent is also grooming the child to bow down to the narc.

          There is so much abuse for the child so to say “potential abuse” for the child but the parental “empath WILL SUFFER” really shows how little people understand the suffering a child of a narc goes through. This is sad to me.

          I don’t know if I can get people to understand that children of narcs will be abused, but let me put it like this. Let’s say there is a wonderful prison guard whom EVERYONE loves. He never abuses his power or position towards the prisoners. He is fair and treats the prisoners well. Towards the other staff he is always helpful. The administration find him an exemplary, reliable member of staff. No one has anything bad to say about him, but he has one thing he does wrong, just one and that is Big Mo. Big Mo is the bully of the prison who likes to find young, weak men and take advantage of them in the shower. The guard pretends like he doesn’t know, but he knows and as the young men are forced into the shower looking pitiful, helpless and desperate for the guard’s help, the guard turns his back and walks away. The young men’s lives will forever be damaged. This is what the good parent does. The guard never told Big Mo to rape anyone. The guard never participates in the rape, but the guard has the authority and power to stop it but he doesn’t. He lets it happen over and over again. The child is looking to the good parent for help just like the prisoner is looking to the guard, but both turn a blind eye. Neither can escape because both are locked in a prison at the mercy of their guardians. What does that make the guard? Is the guard innocent? Is the guard a victim because he knows if he tries to stop Big Mo, Mo will put up a fight? Or is the guard just as bad or perhaps even worse than Big Mo because Mo IS the bad guy, but the guard is supposed to be the good guy protecting the other prisoners but chooses not to. Anyway, that is sort of what it feels like to be a child with one narc parent and one good parent.

          So no, I am not lying. This is how it is.

          As for no one would choose to be ensnared by a narc, I will repeat what I said to A Victor. According to Sam Vaknim there are people who are ONLY attracted to narcs.
          There is a clinical name for them but I forgot it. They willingly and purposely put themselves in these relationships over and over again, and if you go back to the beginning of HG’s blog where I am reading you will see this for yourself. HG makes no qualms about telling how he sees and treats women as objects to be abused and discarded. He says it over and over. There is no mistaking his intentions. YET there are women literally throwing themselves at him, offering themselves to him, and flirting with him. It is unbelievable but it is right there in black and white. Go back to his old blogs and see it for yourself so yes there are people who choose to be ensnared, not all but some do.

          1. Leigh says:

            ST, I’m sorry you had to endure what you did. In your example the guard could be a narcissist as well because he has no empathy for those weaker men in the shower.

            I can assure you, an empath would not allow that to happen. There is no way I would allow my husband to abuse my children and he knew that. He knew my children ALWAYS came before him.

            I’m sorry your father didn’t protect you. I think AV may be right. I don’t think you’re father may be quite as empathetic as you think.

    5. k mac says:

      ST
      That is why love bombing is so powerful. It’s everything you’ve always wanted to hear and experience but we’re denied as a child. That is also why the disengagement is so unbearable.

      1. ST says:

        K Mac, that makes sense but for me love bombing is so obviously fake it seems like grasping for straws to believe it. I have seen it done to others and have had men try it on me and I am amazed when I see girls fall for it and turned off when men have tried it on me because I see it as a one-liner used on every girl. I don’t want a man saying to me “you are the most beautiful woman in the world” when I know he has told every other girl the same thing! The words are cheap, tacky, and meaningless. I find them insulting and degrading to expect me to just be a number on his list falling for his cheap sap that has been poured on every woman he encounters and reused on me. It is disgusting.

        But how my mom won my dad, I have no idea. My dad didn’t come across as the desperate type and he had so much love around him that he didn’t have to fall for it. Also he was voted the most handsome in his class. He was a star college athlete in tip top shape with a very good, kind personality so he would have had plenty of girls to choose from. He didn’t have to be desperate. According to my dad it was just “love at first sight”. I don’t know if my mom even had to use love bombing on him. I will never understand their romance. They were two totally different people from two totally different backgrounds.

        One of the most pitiful cases I ever saw of love bombing was in high school. There was an obese girl with greasy thin, messy hair, nothing attractive about her face, she was clumsy, dressed sloppily, and had an awkward personality. I don’t know if it was some cruel game the football players were doing, but the star football player came on to her thick pouring syrupy words on her. I wanted to take her aside and tell her to stay away, that this guy was no good. But how do you tell a girl that is lapping up all his flattering lies that they are just lies? I knew she wanted to hear it and would be mad at me if I told her that her “boyfriend” was a liar. To tell her the truth would mean one had to tell her she wasn’t that beautiful, talented, and extraordinary. We were not friends so for me to just go up and tell her that would have come across as mean, and I don’t think she would have received it because she was walking around like she was on cloud 9. She really thought they were a couple. EVERYONE saw it was a lie but her. I wondered how was she believing all this. People were talking and laughing behind her back. It was so obvious but she fell for it, got sexually molested then dumped and made the joke of the school. It was ruthlessly cruel. But at the same time, she could have looked in the mirror and realized she wasn’t a 10. She could have looked at herself and realized all he was telling her was not true. She should have been more honest with herself and then she would not have gotten hurt. She wanted to believe the lies I think, but it cost her dearly.

        1. WiserNow says:

          ST,
          The high school situation you described sounds really awful for the girl treated that way. As you say, it was ruthlessly cruel to do that to someone, no matter who they are or even if you don’t like them or would not normally socialise with them.

          I know it was a high school situation and teenagers can be cruel and self-centred, but I wonder if any of the other kids confronted the football player who lied and pretended to be the girl’s boyfriend?

          If you could see it was obvious he was lying and love-bombing her and that people were talking and laughing behind her back, did you say anything to him? Did you try to make him stop or make him aware that what he was doing was cruel and unfair? If the girl was molested, that was a serious matter. Did anyone tell a teacher or talk to the girl and try to help her?

          The football player who did that sounds like a narcissist – cruel and self-entitled without any compassion or shame.

          In a way, what you have described your father doing to ‘enable’ your mother to have children and abuse them is similar in some ways (not exactly the same) to what happened to the girl at your high school. Other kids watched it happening and laughed and talked about it behind her back. Did anyone confront the football player (the narcissist) to protect the girl? If not, then why do you think they didn’t?

          The answers to that may give you some insight into why your father didn’t intervene when your mother was abusing you.

          The situation the girl at your high school was in seemed glaringly obvious to you. You say “she should have known” and “she could have looked in the mirror” and “she should have been more honest with herself”. Perhaps she should have. Perhaps she wanted a boyfriend and the football player’s flattery and attention made her feel wanted and she enjoyed it. Either way, you seem to be placing more scrutiny and responsibility on her for not knowing than on the football player for doing it in the first place.

          And if no-one stepped in to tell the football player he was being a cruel so and so, then what does that make all the other kids watching and laughing?

          If the girl bumped into you now and asked you, “Why didn’t you help me? Why didn’t you say something? Everyone watched it happening and no-one said anything. Why?”
          …what would you say to her?

          Please know that I’m not blaming you and I don’t want to make you feel responsible for what happened at high school. I just saw the parallels in your comment here and in your initial comment and it made me think of these things. I think it’s a really good example of how narcissism works in relationships and social situations and it is thought-provoking.

          1. ST says:

            WiserNow, your questions are fair and yes I do believe lots of people bear some responsibility. But the case with my father was different in that he was my father, created me, and essentially handed me over to my narc mom to be abused. This girl was the unpopular girl in the school so she didn’t have a relationship with most people in the school including myself. My father was responsible for me but students are not responsible on the same level as a parent to a child. We were teens with little experience in life but my dad was an adult. In addition, in my case I was still under my narc’s roof where every word I said and every move I made could be held against me. I never was free from her because she was at the school too. So there was that situation as well.

            That is not to make an excuse. I came VERY close to saying something to the girl, but as I wrote before not having a relationship with her and then coming up to her and telling her it was all a joke, I don’t think she would have received it. I think for her this was her fairy tale that she wanted to believe. She really believed they were a couple. This boy was the boy almost ALL the girls wanted so for her it was like a prince sweeping down and sweeping her off her feet. If we had had a relationship, I definitely would have said something to her. Even now with hindsight I don’t think my saying anything to her would have helped. Even when my grandparents cautioned my dad, that didn’t stop him.

            I think the only thing that could have prevented this from happening was for the adults to step in and stop the boy. If immature teens could clearly see what was going on, then definitely the staff and coach saw it too but did nothing. This boy was not belligerent. He did respect authority. I think if his coach, homeroom teacher, or principal had pulled him aside and said “enough is enough”, he would have stopped. So I definitely think the staff bears some heavy responsibility for allowing it to happen.

            I think the students didn’t bear responsibility for it happening but they definitely bear responsibility for laughing and talking behind her back. That was terribly wrong.

            I wonder if the football team had made a dare for him to do this and he took them up on the dare. If that is the case, then the football team would bear responsibility too. Now did they expect it to go so far as sexual assault, I would hope not but even if they just said “pretend like you like her” that was cruel in and of itself.

            As for the girl, yes, I think she had some responsibility in that she lied to herself. This boy only dated the most beautiful, popular, fit girls. She wasn’t his type, and the things he was saying to her were obviously not true. She had to have known that but let herself believe the lie. She was young but still old enough to know better.

            However, for the bad behavior the boy has to take full blame. He did it. The staff have to take full blame for not stopping it. Students have to take blame for making fun of the girl. And IF they did it, the football team has to take blame for encouraging it. But the boy has to take blame for what he did.

            As to your question of whether anyone confronted the boy before the incident, to my knowledge, no. Did I confront him? No. The reason I didn’t confront him was I stayed away from him like the plague. He was always chasing after me. He got his brother and mother to try and get me to date him too, but I wanted nothing to do with him. Once he asked me why I wouldn’t date him and I told him because of the way he treated girls. He used ALL girls, but those girls were different than this girl. Those were his “legitimate” girlfriends. This girl was his public joke. There is a HUGE difference. Anyway, I didn’t like him. For me to go to him could have been interpreted the wrong way and opened the door for him to bug me. I just wanted him to stay away from me. If I had gone to anyone, it would have been the girl, not him.

            As for the other students, yes I did tell them it wasn’t funny and it was wrong, and I didn’t participate in their snickering and talking behind her back, but I could not control their own conversations.

            Did anyone else talk to the girl? I don’t know. She did have a few friends who might have cautioned her but she didn’t listen. Her parents and sister might have cautioned her, but I am not privy to that information.

            Why do I think no one confronted the boy? That is easy. He was perhaps the most popular boy in the school. Girls fawned over him. Boys looked up to him. He came from a prominent family and made the school look good with his football skills so staff respected him. As for the girl, unfortunately she is what some would call a “nobody”. Of course she was a somebody but I am just saying how they were viewed so what he did to her didn’t really matter in their eyes. I know it is cruel. I said it was ruthlessly cruel, but that is why. It doesn’t make it right but that is reality. And that reality happens all the time in many different circumstances.

            As for the molestation, it happened at school. The whole “relationship” was just a school joke for the boy. So the girl went home, told her parents, and her parents came to the school and confronted the principal. The principal contacted the boy’s parents and let the two sets of parents work it out. The girl went back to class and as I said the whole thing was ruthlessly cruel because she was not vindicated or seen as a victim. She was seen as a fool and made a laughingstock. As for the boy, even after all the girls saw what he did, he remained very popular with the girls, boys and staff. Girls continued to throw themselves at him. It wasn’t fair. It was cruel. The boy now man is still very popular today. It didn’t affect him in the slightest, but I am happy to say the girl made it out and became a PhD professor of economics at a prominent university. But I am sure what happened to her left a scar. Being a PhD doesn’t erase the cruelty of the past. And here is the most ironic twist to it all, she claims she became a PhD because of my narc mom! She said if it were not for my mom she would have been working in a factory.

    6. WiserNow says:

      ST,
      As you probably know, there is a wide variety of opinions expressed here and there will sometimes be strong language too. I just want to say to you that you are entitled to your views. They are your views and you expressed them the way your thoughts and feelings led you to express them.

      You don’t need to question yourself and how or why you said what you did. We are all here commenting and there will be variations in how different people see different things. If it’s important enough for you to express it here in a comment where you feel able to ‘spill your spleen’, then it is important to you. You don’t need to ‘self-monitor’ to fit in with the views or experiences of others, nor do you have to agree with others if you don’t actually agree.

      I’ve read this thread and I can understand your point of view. As an ACON, you are questioning the actions your parents took in having children. I have questioned my father too – not to ask, “why did you have children with a narcissist?” because I believe he didn’t know my mother was one and he loved her anyway. I question my father because he did have choices in the way he responded to my mother’s actions once we were already born. That aspect is what I question.

      As a father though, my dad was great in many ways. He could not control the things my mother did because, who can control a narcissist? The only way to ‘control’ what a narcissist does is to have no contact. My father could have intervened though and he could have protected us and objected to my mother’s behaviours but he didn’t. Perhaps men in general give much of the day-to-day child-raising responsibility over to the mother in the belief that is her ‘natural’ area to govern, and then it becomes a kind of habit. Not all men, but I think many probably do.

      When it comes to having children or not having children as an ACON, there is such a wide variety of different opinions and each person’s ‘choice’ will be based on their personal view as well as their life experiences. I don’t think anyone has a child in a vacuum where the only thing that affects their decision is whether or not the other person is a narcissist. Often, there will be a range of other reasons. The empathic person may not even be aware of narcissism or have much knowledge about how their partner will behave as a parent.

      I for one am glad you are here ST and that you felt comfortable enough to express your opinion. It is *your* opinion and you have a right to express it, just as others have a right to express theirs. There is no point in trying to say the ‘right’ thing all the time to stay on HG’s (or anyone else’s) good side. It doesn’t work. HG said himself numerous times that there will always be devaluation at some point with a narcissist. Also, if we are always going to say what we think HG and others will be comfortable with, is there any point and will there be any real learning and change?

      1. ST says:

        Wiser now, Thank you.

        1. WiserNow says:

          You’re welcome ST.

          One other thing that came to mind with regard to your initial comment is that the *choice* to have or not have children is equally difficult to make either way for some (if not most). It is a life-changing, life-long decision and it is huge, either way. It’s not like waking up one day and saying, I think I’ll stop parting my hair in the middle from now on.

          The decision not to have children can be as heartwrenchingly difficult and mentally challenging as the decision to have them. Sometimes, I think that people who choose to have children and who do all the hard work to raise them don’t really consider that.

          Also, society in general tends to place some kind of importance or honor or gravitas on women who do have them as though everyone else has to honor the mother’s choice as well. I think that is narrow-minded to some extent when you consider the kind of world we live in.

          I recognise that bringing up a child is a massive responsibility and that it involves a lot of self-sacrifice, patience and care, however, it is the parents’ ‘choice’ to have them. It is not the neighbour’s choice, or the sister’s choice, or the employer’s choice, or the community’s choice. In that regard, I personally believe that more people need to consider the choice to have them with that in mind.

          Going back to your initial comment… Your father (and many other people) probably didn’t face his future with the mindset that he needed to guard against meeting a narcissist and having children with a narcissist. I don’t think any young person considers their future and the kind of family they would like to have in that way. If your father was like most people, he was probably optimistic about his future and the prospect of having children. He probably welcomed the idea of having children and didn’t think logically or with awareness about how the children would be affected if he even knew his wife was a narcissist.

          The more I think about narcissism, the more I think there is a disconnect between what people ‘believe’ life and nature ‘should’ be like, and what it is ‘actually’ like. The logical and emotional challenges people face are often due to their ideals not matching up to reality. Unfortunately, reality and mother nature don’t care – reality and mother nature have evolved so that people survive and reproduce.

          I’m going to stop there because I don’t want to write an essay on philosophy and my own ad hoc ruminations. I just thought about your initial comment in more detail and it made me think of these things.

          Going back to your comments, ST, as an ACON I think it’s helpful to ask questions and communicate your thoughts. It helps to reach greater understanding for yourself and others.

          1. ST says:

            WiserNow, I agree with what you wrote. And I don’t think my dad knew my mom was a narc when he married her, but his parents instinctively saw enough that they cautioned him. That should have been his first major red flag because his parents were very kind, gentle people who would not have said anything unless they really saw something amiss. He ignored their caution and moved forward.

            I don’t know what red flags were being waved in their brief courtship, but surely after marriage I believe the red flags came out strongly. Therefore, there is no excuse.

            Even if there were no red flags, after my sister was born there had to have been because my sister only has bad memories from a very young age. The abuse had already started so to have another child was just participating in the abuse by supplying my mom with objects to abuse. Then to have more children after me is just inexcusable.

            With that said, I do feel sorry for my dad because I know if he had refused to have children, my mom probably would have made his life miserable and then left him. He was a tender man so I know that would have been hard for him, BUT by having children he only multiplied and spread the abuse. He didn’t escape it. I doubt he thought of it like that, but that is the reality.

            Well, he is gone and I DO want to see him again on the other side in a more perfect life, but now that narcissism is a mainstream word unlike in his day, people really have no excuse bringing children into the world with a narc. I wish the cycle would stop because it takes 2 to tango. Bringing children into the world to be abused takes 2 people, not just one which means both are responsible. I don’t hate my dad, I just wish he had not done what he did. He was wrong.

            Thank you for letting me vent and sort these things out. I carried this weight for decades so it is good to finally get it off my shoulder.

          2. Asp Emp says:

            ST, I’d been reading your comments in regard to your experiences and your thoughts on them.

            My father’s father was not around when he met muvver, she was pregnant within a month. She had a home, loving & supportive mother & sisters (her own father probably was suffering PTSD as a result of WWII). In those days, unwed and pregnant women were known to give up their babies for adoption. My aunt offered to take me in (she’d already had 2 toddlers by then), that was turned down. Instead my parents got married within 5 months of meeting (due to the pregnancy). My father’s mother did not like my mother yet loved me and my sister (3 years younger). Muvver finds out my father is ill and dying when she is 6 months pregnant, takes an overdose in response. She never said to me that she loved my father. The main physical abuse started after he died (even though her verbal abuse caused emotional & mental traumas started when I was younger). Sister was muvver’s golden child. Muvver refused to sell up & move closer to her mother (my grandfather died 5 months after my father died). Within a year, I went to boarding school, it was my father’s specific expressed wish this school. He worked from home (through the night more than day time) while muvver went to the office and eventually moved the family near to a primary school with a partially hearing unit (for me). Muvver continued to work from the same office, about an hour’s drive away. My father probably refused to move the admin ‘office’ as a safeguarding measure?

            I believe my parents would have gone separate ways had it not been for my father’s health. I decided not to have children because of my childhood experiences. I left home at 22. Muvver supported sister when she got married, had children etc.

            I am glad you found your way to KTN blog and found the space to express your views and experiences. Thank you for sharing here and good to see you starting on your journey of understanding about narcissism that will benefit you in the future 🙂

          3. WiserNow says:

            ST,
            Thank you for your comment. I understand and relate to what you have said. You are welcome too, about venting and speaking your mind. What you have carried for decades is a lifetime of trauma and painful experiences and that is difficult to carry, especially when you feel like you have nowhere or no-one to talk to about it who will understand and acknowledge your truth. Honestly though, I think we both need to thank HG for this blog and for creating a space where it’s possible to vent and communicate our thoughts honestly and safely. Thank you to you HG.

            ST,
            I do understand you and your feelings about your father. I can understand that what your father did was wrong. In a nutshell, your father put his own needs and his own well-being ahead of his children by enabling and allowing more children to be born and by allowing the abuse. It was easier and safer for him to do that than to stand up to his wife and stop having children and to defend and protect his existing children.

            That’s what I believe when I think of your father as well as my own. Their behaviours in what they actually did could have been instinctive or they could have acted in full conscious awareness. Either way though, our fathers took the easier way.

            Having said that, I think it’s also important to remember that narcissists don’t (or can’t) change. A person can spend their life trying to teach or heal or fix a narcissist – or to stand up to them or to fight with them – and the narcissist won’t change. Without fully acknowledging and accepting that, I think empathic or codependent people still believe or still hope there is a chance or possibility that the narcissist can change and can learn to ‘love’. HG has written many posts about society’s general beliefs about things like romance and ‘love conquers all’ and ‘never give up’ etc. Now that there is more accurate knowledge and awareness about narcissism, hopefully these misunderstood ideals about ‘love’ and relationships will start to change.

            Back in the era when my own parents grew up, there was a strong general social belief that families needed to stay together and support each other and that children were responsible for honoring and respecting their parents. Narcissists will fully exploit those kinds of social ‘customs’ or beliefs and use guilt to make their children believe them and comply with them. At the same time, I think it is a good thing for families to be supportive of each other too, based on real respect and real and constructive support.

            Awareness and knowledge helps to make sense of everything and to be conscious of where to draw the line about things.

            ST,
            You may be reading here and depending on your own views you will regard certain things as ‘wrong’ or ‘inexcusable’. You are entitled to those views and in some ways you are correct. There are many things that impact a person’s decisions though, so it helps to try and see it from someone’s else’s point of view.

            For example, both my parents were born either right before or during World War II. During WWII, the houses they lived in were burned down when the ‘enemy’ invaded their town. My parents were babies when that happened to their respective family homes. At that time, they grew up with no running water, no electricity, and there were shortages of food, clothing and many other things. There were no telephones, no computers, no cars, no proper heating, and little organised education or structured social conditions or media to inform people of what was happening. Now, we have the internet; multiple cars; things like washing machines and dishwashers; smart phones; and we can speak to other people across the world. If the internet goes down for a day, or there’s a blackout, we think it’s unacceptable. It’s a totally different world. I think it helps to understand that what we experience ourselves cannot be compared with what someone from a different generation or different country experienced or experiences now.

            If we simply say that someone is ‘wrong’ or that their actions are ‘inexcusable’, it is a judgement that may not be seeing the whole picture of that person’s experience and actions.

            The weight you have been carrying for decades is real for you and has impacted your life. There are similar weights and difficulties that other people carry too and that you may not be able to see or relate to.

            Having said all that, I do understand you. When you said in one of your comments that the children of a narcissist must cover for their parents and their dysfunctional home-life so that the family looks ‘perfect’ in society – that totally resonates with me. I can understand that very well. To a child of a narcissist, it’s a burden and it affects their life and the choices they make. The parents pass their own burdens down to their children.

            I think that the inescapable truth is that we have to accept the past and learn from it. By doing that, we can learn how to improve our own future. As someone here once said to me, “it is what it is”. If we can learn and have awareness, we can understand better and then make our own decisions to avoid the same mistakes.

            Thank you for your comments ST. It has been a pleasure to communicate with you and I can understand where you’re coming from. I hope that your willingness to communicate your views will also help others to better understand their own situations and to learn about narcissism so that there is even more awareness.

  7. NarcAngel says:

    My view on monitoring:

    While I understand general care and concern in making comments and/or giving opinions, I equate monitoring oneself excessively to avoid misinterpretation to be tied to a fear of being disliked. Where people are truly open to discussion and learning there will be clarification that may still lead to disagreement, but not one of ongoing hostility. Where that happens, it almost always a case of someone determined to misinterpret for their own personal reasons and nothing to do with the commenter. There is not much to be learned if we are inauthentic in giving watered down views/opinions in order not to offend. Intelligent people want genuine discussion and will rise to exchange and understanding where possible, but not always acceptance – and that’s okay isn’t it? There can be great pride and legacy for HG in a place reputed for unrivalled education and intelligent subscribers that makes it worthwhile continuing, but I can not envision it as worth his valuable time or allowing it to degrade into an empath lonely hearts club where we all just meet and agree. How boring for all of us, including I imagine, HG.

    I wrote this with general care but little concern. Those who want to understand will, and those who do not – will not, but there is no fear of being disliked. Is that not at the root of what kept most of us ensnared so long and how we ended up here?

    It says: Vent Your Spleen!
    Not: Tiptoe Through the Tulips

    1. HG Tudor says:

      Well stated, NA.

      1. Asp Emp says:

        So, does this mean that the ‘floor is open’, HG ? 😉

        1. HG Tudor says:

          Was it ever closed?

          1. Asp Emp says:

            No, it wasn’t, HG 🙂

      2. NarcAngel says:

        I appreciate that, HG.

        Speaking of appreciation…..

        I would like to take a moment to thank you personally for all of your time and effort, and the ongoing innovation in providing new information and products. The diversity in your methods of teaching are quite impressive and ensure a place of understanding for a broad range of clients who are at all different stages. No easy feat.

        The 100k Interviews are stellar, the celebrity analyses to witness in real time and for practice in applying the work, the humorous Mauls series and Tudor Tales, the burgeoning Knowledge Vault, just to name a few. You are bringing understanding of a difficult subject to the world in a way that no one else has, or can. There is huge gratitude for your recognition, willingness, and ability to act on the opportunity to marry some of your needs with that of ours with a vision to creating a lasting legacy. Brilliant.

        On a personal note:
        Thank you for being an instrument of change in my life. You gave not just answers but understanding to questions that had plagued me for most of it. I was muddling through and had pieces here and there, but the relief that came from the clarity that you provide has been invaluable. The patience and and courtesy that you have demonstrated in our exchanges for learning and especially in the very few instances of disagreement, attest to your professionalism and have been appreciated. I am ever grateful for the opportunity to have been admitted entry to this world of Knowing (a little) of the Narcissist that is H.G Tudor/The Ultra.

        NA

        1. HG Tudor says:

          Thank you NA much appreciated and thank you for you continued contributions and support of my work.

        2. Duchessbea says:

          NA,
          That is a very lovely comment to make.
          Best,
          DB

    2. Leigh says:

      NA, I agree with most of your statement with one little change. Not all self monitoring is done because they are afraid of being disliked. I’ve been monitoring as well and it has nothing to with not being liked. Sometimes its a self defense move. I feel uncomfortable on the blog right now because I feel under attack by one of the bloggers. Maybe it’s in my head but I feel it’s easier to limit my comments because it limits the chances of the blogger saying something to me. I can’t tell the blogger to not comment on my comments because its a public blog so its easier to abstain from commenting myself. I’m all for spirited debates. But once it became hostile with name calling and general nastiness, I felt it was best to lessen my comments.

      I just wanted to point out that there could be other reasons why someone self monitors.

      I do agree with what you say though. Curbing our comment to coddle one another would be quite boring.

      1. Asp Emp says:

        Leigh, there is ‘defense’ and there is also ‘ignorance’, two different perceptions / ways of thinking. I do not believe you feel uncomfortable about being on the blog, that is just excuses. Nobody is “attacking” you personally, they may be questioning your approaches (responses) towards others.

        Somebody apologised to you for coming across as judging you unfairly because you gave them that impression when in fact, they were not, that person was offering you support and you dissed on them dismissively. You did not say anything to reduce that person’s ‘view’ of themselves, that, in my view, was unfair on that person. You were not ‘seeing’ it, or accepting it from their perspective, just like you did not accept my perspective. It seems to me, from what I have seen you and other commentors exchanging, that it is one-sided, from your perspective, the other person’s perspective does not matter to you.

        Someone else suggested that your ET is keeping you “ensnared” to your husband. You chose to stay and came up with excuses** not to leave.

        You shared about the lack of the lock on the bathroom door. Why did you, yourself not put a lock on to ensure privacy for everyone in the household? It is common sense. Or was it a ‘control’ thing? Consider why your husband did not put a lock on the door, maybe he did (or at least suggest it)?

        Leigh, there are several people on this blog who have spent time and effort in supporting you. Some of them you have treated in a dismissive manner, dismissing their support and used excuses why you are not dealing with your own personal situation. I say “excuses” because HG used those words to you around the long discussion where people were offering you support / advice (around December 2020, I think it was).

        You seem to think it is ok to be smoochy to some people and shit on others. Why? Because they (in your eyes) either, dared to challenge you, or you viewed it as a challenge – as if it was threatening your control.

        You cannot accuse non-narcissists of having behaviours when they were not actually showing any towards you and not even look at your own behaviours at how you treated them.

        You even had the nerve to ask about someone’s happiness indirectly to someone else, when in fact, they are happy and you are not. So what? You chose to stay, so you cannot be justified in having envy, or jealousy towards people who are happy and in a successful relationship. Deal with your own ‘issues’ instead of projecting your anger outwards for the wrong reasons towards those people, for the right reasons for your own situation.

        I could very list those people you ‘shat’ on, on here but I will not because I have respect for those people.

        18 months later, after the long December 2020 support / advice discussion where the attention was on you, given to you and you have basically thrown it back into the faces of those who helped you. You know this, if you had taken that advice and acted on it, you’d probably be divorced by now, living quite happily in your own place and would have been emotionally and mentally ready to meet someone else.

        I am not ‘blind’ to what I say on HG’s blog. I am not ignorant either. Have you seen any evidence (if, so, prove it), that I gaslight; question people’s integrity; I blame-shift (making excuses, not taking accountability, nor responsibility for what I say); I triangulate…..oh, by the way, am I provoking here? Am I bringing up the past here?

        Consider your own behaviours first, that is what you suggest as “self-monitoring”.

      2. WiserNow says:

        Well said Leigh. I also feel it’s easier to limit my comments at times.

        It’s quite funny really. Too much self-monitoring can lead to suggestions like, “be fearless” or “how boring for HG”.

        …meanwhile honest and spontaneously genuine comments can lead to no-one wanting to know you haha

        I’m still not entirely sure where the acceptable point is between ‘prissy knickers’ and ‘viciously callous’… 🙂

    3. A Victor says:

      NA, what a great comment! I have always self monitored/moderated and it’s only gotten me into trouble! Here I am learning, slowly but surely, that is okay for me to have a voice, an opinion, a thought and to say it and stand by it. You are so correct, it’s okay to disagree, it’s just getting past that fear of doing so that can be so difficult sometimes. Especially when there was literal fear of expressing oneself due to possible painful consequences. It is not always a matter of fearing not being liked but that has a place also. Thank you for your comment, really great.

      1. Contagious says:

        Victor your replies and analysis were beyond the call of duty! Keep commenting;)

        1. A Victor says:

          Contagious,

          Thank you for your comment, it is very encouraging to me.

    4. Truthseeker6157 says:

      NA,

      I agree with your thinking here. If we self monitor too much, it’s a pointless exercise adding the comment in the first place.

      I think there are lots of reasons why people including myself self monitor. They don’t have to be tied to a fear of being disliked. Sharing opinions online is very different to sharing them face to face or even via audio.

      Xx

      1. NarcAngel says:

        Yes, I do recognize that there are other reasons for self monitoring. My observation was that in general people (both here and off blog) hesitate to give their opinion for fear of having it be an unpopular one with the majority and have that majority perceive them to be other than the way in which they prefer to be viewed (“playing well with others”, “the one to turn to”, etc). I still see a thread to those things as a fear of having people dislike them or a changed perception of them. With Vent your spleen vs Tiptoe through the tulips, I am speaking of opinions on the blog subject at hand at any given time and the discussions surrounding that. NOT advocating using a strong opinion as thinly veiled provocation or to make known one’s personal negative feelings of another. That has nothing to do with the purpose of this space and is easily identified for what it is by the intelligent people here.

        1. Truthseeker6157 says:

          NA,

          Thank you for the further clarification. Yes, you’re right and linking your point back to my original comment about me sharing thoughts on a couple of threads recently, then deleting them, I see what you’re driving at here.

          There have been a couple of threads recently where I have read myself back as harsher, less forgiving, less accommodating than most. My views on Prince Harry’s behaviour would be a good example. Those are my views though and I can’t change those views just to fit in with the majority. I didn’t feel at all put upon by HG or the other commenters here for holding those different views though. That’s important to note. I found that thread interesting and it did soften my attitude to a degree without necessarily changing my views.

          My deleting of my own comments of late has been a little to do with not wanting to rock the boat I’ll admit. Also lower energy just due to life stresses, and some current self evaluation as to how I behave and why. Basically, I’m a little erratic just now! You’re also correct about there being some very intelligent people here on the blog, so if I’m going to give an opinion, I feel I should at least be prepared to back it up!

          I take your point NA, thank you for making it.

          Xx

        2. Gypsy Heart says:

          I believe you all have very valid perspectives coming from the context of differing experiences. I have witnessed people going through the same experience and have been amazed at all the different perspectives that arose from that same situation. It is no wonder that we all have very individual perspectives concerning the subject matter. We are all valid in our thoughts and emotions concerning what we all personally experienced on an individual level.

          I truly believe that those of us who keep returning are here to learn. To make sense of what has happened in our lives. Sometimes hearing other perspectives can fill in the missing pieces to the puzzle we have all been trying to solve in our lives. Some opinions here may ring true to my own situations, whereas others may not be as applicable. However it doesn’t mean that I feel that a particular persons thoughts, feelings, or opinions should be invalidated in their situation. We just may not be able to understand if we haven’t experienced a similar situation. Rather than take offense I would like to look at it in the same way that HG explains the narcissists in our lives do not feel love or emotional empathy. It makes sense why they seem to not be able to see our perspective. Many of us may also be experiencing differing levels of ET and haven’t quite got to the point of getting it back down to LT. And that ET seems to come to the forefront sometimes when we least expect it. As long as my perspective isn’t being completely invalidated and that person isn’t trying to infoce their beliefs on me I try to understand that persons opinion even if I don’t agree with it.I have been impressed with many here who can respect that and be supportive of each other.

          I too am an ACON. He is deceased now, but it still haunts me. Most of my relationships have been with narcissists. My twenty seven year relationship that I raised a child in was with a narcissist. To give another perspective, I believe my father leaned more towards the psychopathy aspect of the human dynamic. Very chilling and terrorising emotional and physical abuse with constant threats of death.I believe the narcissistic dynamic is much more tame in comparison. I believe this is why I had no idea throughout my marriage. It was only after my escape that I realized this. Not to mention HG has described all the different types of narcissists that may present differently than a parental narcissist.

          I can also understand the feelings of abandonment by the parent that allowed this to happen. I refused to think about this for so long. I even became very angry with the therapist that broached this subject many years ago. My mother was a good woman and a victim also. I have always loved my mother also, but she should have never alowed this. I also am now dealing with the emotions of viewing my mother in a childlike way where I felt that I had to be the strong one for her. Her emotional support after he had left her in a battered, sobbing heap on the floor then took off and left me to pick up the pieces. I even became the scapegoat to ease some of the physical abuse when I knew she couldn’t handle it anymore.

          I do admire so many people on here. I’m glad to be back and to see that many of these people are still here. The support here has gotten me through some really difficult times. I hope we can all work out our differences and work together.

          Most of all I am thankful for HG for the valuable information provided. I’m also thankful that we are encouraged to think for ourselves and apply the material to our lives to understand ourselves and those around us.

          1. Leigh says:

            Thank you Gypsy Heart for sharing your story. I’m in a very similar situation. Both of my parents, my partner of 37 years and my daughter are all narcissists. If I may ask, how did you escape?

          2. Gypsy Heart says:

            Leigh,

            First of all I would like to commend you on finding this site so that you can understand and apply it to your situation. It must have been excruciating to be raised by two narcissist parents and still come out of it with a shred of sanity. Many of us have had an empathic parent to see that not all people are like the narcissist. May I ask if you had other role models that you turned to? I realize that as a child I seemed to seek out these individuals to fill the gap. When I was five my father put a chain link fence around our large back yard to contain me so that my mother could deal with my younger brother and the chores of the household. I immediately climbed the fence to spend time with the neighbor that was always landscaping in his yard. The neighbors were a childless couple. From that point I adopted him as my grandfather and he could never get rid of me. I believe we both fulfilled something in each other that was missing. I also believe that is where my love for nature, landscaping and gardening came from. I continued this relationship even after I left home. I also cannot imagine the sucker punch you must have felt learning that your own child is a narcissist. Are you still with your husband? I understand you are taking steps to escape?

            My first escape was my father. The first evening that I spent in my rental house when I went away to university my boyfriend came and spent the night. We had discussed whether or not to park his car elsewhere, but I stated that if he was going to go through the trouble of driving all the way over here we may as well make it worth his effort and his car remained parked in my drive. I realize now that the boyfriend that I eventually married must have been very intimidated by my father but maintained a brave front. Sure enough the next day he cut me off all financial support and continued to completely foot the bill for all my brother’s expenses when he went away to a different university. My brother had an eidetic memory just as my father did. He was the golden child. I was the B-grader.

            I immediately started counseling sessions at the campus and was shocked when a priest open his office door in complete priest attire. He also had a psychology degree. He used a few choice cuss words early on in our conversation and encouraged me not to hold back with my emotions and my own choice words. This is where my first idea of no contact came from. Back then we referred to it as estrangement. I am forever thankful for the cussing priest.

            My second escape was from my 24 yr. marriage. He had become more aggressive toward the end as I was standing up for myself. Throwing me around, holding my arms so I could not walk away from the argument. Once I came home for lunch (he had his own home business) and we had a heated argument. I decided this time I would get the last word in as I was walking out the door to go back to work. He ran after me to my car and preceded to try to pull me out. At the same time I was trying to shut the door and drive away. He even had the balls to say I was the aggressor and that I was trying to slam his arm in the door. I stated that I was trying to get away and all he needed to do was let go. Some time later we went on a float trip with my co-workers and their significant others. At one point he became very angry and threw me in the raft and I hit my head on the cooler. Immediately co-worker spouses and men from other groups on the river were after him and there were lots of people holding these guys back. I think he almost got drowned in the river that day. Needless to say there was an intervention and I left to go stay with some frenemies from that group.

            The married guy that was the spokesperson of this group and a friend of ours nearly as long as our marriage was also seducing me. I stayed on their couch for a month then went to a safehouse for 3 months. I eventually cut ties with this whole group. They continue a malign campaign against me that follkwed me to another state. The roomate there was from my highschool days that I had reconnected with on Facebook. She had connections to this group. I befriended another guy that I reconnected with on Facebook and he helped me move back home. He is the one that is responsibele for the demise of his late wife. I have a restraining order against him. He is also friends with the rommate that I escaped from the other state.

            I believe my co-worker/neighbor that has been using me for resources is also friends with the son of this narcissist couple. I just started shutting him down. At the helm is this womam’s matrinarc. She is substantially well off and spends more time vacationing internationally than she spends in the states. I have watched her purposely looking up narcissist information and using gaslighting on purpose with other affairs that this man has had. She would state there are always ways of getting rid of the other woman. Not sure she is aware she is a narcissist but I have witnessed her researching the tools to use to her advantage. Ironically the married daughter was always telling me about the affairs she was having. When I looked at this groups Facebook profiles they all stated they were in heterosexual relationships/marriages but listed they were also bisexual. I have never had any stereotypes and have been friends with bisexual, gay, lesbian, and transgender people. I have never been judgemental, but I noticed that HG states that a lot of narcissists are bisexual.

            Whew!!!!!, anyway that’s my story and I’m sticking to it…..GOSO,

            Gypsy

          3. Leigh says:

            Gypsy, thank you for sharing more of your story.

            No, I didn’t have any other adults to turn to as a child. I have two brothers as well. One of them has an intellectual disability. He’s probably about an 8 year old intellectually. My mother was awful to him. He was her scapegoat. I was her golden child. She’s a victim narcissist and we were all neglected. I often would go to bed starving. My father used his fists to discipline. My younger brother was his scapegoat and I was his golden child as well. He was tyrannical. He left when I was 14. Shortly after that, I met my husband and we’ve been together since. We have two daughters. One an empath, the other a narcissist.

            My father has passed away so that relationship is over. My mother is in a nursing home and I only speak with her once a month for 5 minutes. Sadly, I have not escaped my husband. As for my daughter, all I can do right now is almost no contact. She still lives in my home. But even if she didn’t, I don’t think I could erase her totally. My husband is a victim narcissist like my mother. He is more draining than anything else. He sucks the life out of me.

            Thank you for commending me for finding narcsite. I found it 3 years ago and it has opened my eyes. Many human behaviors finally make sense. Mr. Tudor has given us all an incredible gift and I’m extremely thankful for it.

          4. A Victor says:

            Hi Gypsy Heart,

            This comment is very timely for me and I just wanted to thank you for it. The abandonment ties in to a sense of betrayal by friends who don’t agree with my perspective. I needed this piece of the puzzle this exact week, thank you so much.

          5. A Victor says:

            Oh, but it doesn’t have to, that’s the good news! Thanks again!

          6. Gypsy Heart says:

            Thank you AV,

            I am glad if sharing some of my story and opinions has helped with your situation. I am also dealing with feelings of betrayel and abandonment by friends and coworkers at this time. I work in a manufacturing and production job at the moment. There is rampant bullying and sexual harrassment even in leadership positions there. I am the whistleblower and have a hard time keeping my mouth shut. I will be listening to The Virtues of Keeping your Mouth Shut from the Knowledge Vault over and over again because this is a hard lesson for me and gets me into all kinds of trouble. I also have strong resentment toward my supervisor because I went to him and informed him that my abuser would be trying to get a job there just to continue his harrassment of me. They knowingly hired him anyway. I then went through hiring legal services to prove this and attain a restraing order with the help of my coworkers. The company suspended him and feigned support, but left it up to me to prove before making the decision not to let him come back. I had to go through conference calls with corporate legal services also. I waited until this time to reveal that my supervisor knowingly hired this guy. The new human resources guy present just about fell out of his chair. I’m pretty sure he had to change his britches after that one. He resigned not long after and all of our HR stuff is by phone through corporate now. I’m a bit intimidated because this is a multibillion dollar company with their hands in pots nationwide as well as internationally. My supervisor knows I have no respect for him and is quite sheepish around me. As he was taking me back for the legal conference I shot daggers at him with my eyes. Pulled myself up three inches higher as I walked at a brisk pace to the office with him trailing behind. Shut the office door in his face and he had to use his badge to open the door behind me. As I went in the HR office he was stating well I guess you don’t need me anymore and I shut that door in his face before he could finish the sentence. I don’t plan on staying there forever. It is just a stepping stone to get my feet back on the ground. But before I leave I am going to insist that they hire a professional organization to come in and address the bullying and sexual harrassment. If they don’t I will persue this through my own legal services.

            I hope your situation gets better AV,

            Gypsy

          7. A Victor says:

            Gypsy, you have much more going on than I do the way it sounds. I hope it all gets better for you very soon. And that you don’t have to use your own resources to pursue the harassment, they should be taking care of that already.

            Just to clarify, for myself as much as anybody, the sense of abandonment is something I didn’t recognize until reading your comment, that was an eye opener, because it related to the sense of betrayal I had recognized earlier in the day. But I believe, though I can’t change the fact that there was a sense of abandonment which has caused me to do the abandoning prematurely in most situations, now that I know what I’m dealing with, it can all be made controllable. Logic is pretty easy on this one, now that I see what must be done with it. Hmmm, not sure if that clarified…😂

          8. Gypsy Heart says:

            The sexual harrassment there is unbelievable. Apparently it has always been going on and even by men in leadership positions. I noticed that the women just seem to accept it, but some of us talk about how we don’t like it. They will put there hands on us, hug us, then brush there hands down the side of our breasts, waste, hips and bum. One of the guys I work with said he stood back and counted 5 instances of sexual harrassment in a 30 minute period. The old married guys have been terrible (ewww). Try to get me to go pick okra, pecans. One wanted me to go dig nightcrawlers with him. The young ones just want to envite me to hang on the couch with them and get high. There is at least one that I don’t have to worry about anymore. He was the lead over another department. He ended up going to prison because he was a pedophile. I’m almost to the point where I want to hang a sign over my work area that states….”old married guys- not a chance, thinking you want a friends with benefits kinda thing- think again, having the MILF/cougar fantasy-forget about it, and no I am not gay.

          9. Gypsy Heart says:

            I’m thinking about having my sign professionally done. Any recommendations out there for some quality work? I do believe in quality, but this company doesn’t. We have had quality issues when on a time crunch and they just say ship it, we’ll deal with it later. WTF!?!?!?!

          10. Gypsy Heart says:

            Also I would like to add that the punch in the gut that made me realize that the company was only looking at this for their own concerns (CYA) situation was that I had numerous signed statements from. Co-workers that they were witnessing his stalking and harrassment behaviour at work and around town. They were only interested in instances that were witnessed at work or the streets around the warehouse at breaktime, not him stalking me around my neighborhood or him following other coworkers into outside businesses and harrassing them about me. When I delivered the signed statements to the HR guy and then said I still needed copies for my own lawsuit he informed me that he was instructed not to let me have them. He then said something like maybe you already made the copies and set them on the corner of his desk and looked the other way. I immediately grabbed them and went down the hall to make my copies.

          11. A Victor says:

            Gypsy Heart, it sounds like that entire company needs a complete overhaul. I can’t help you with a sign maker suggestion but it doesn’t sound like that’s a bad idea at all. Sometimes I wish I had a plaque just like that to hand around my neck! 😂

          12. A Victor says:

            Hang** around my neck! Ugh.

          13. Gypsy Heart says:

            You have no idea! I feel so bad for the people who have given their whole lives to this company. They were promised so much so long ago and have been screwed over by the company changing hands and being bought out by corporate. I have never worked anywhere where the employee morale was so bad. There is a union but I believe it is corupt too. It is actually in the contract that they cannot go on strike. You hear about this in other countries too. People die on the floor and business carries on like nothing happened. I have heard comments from old timers that if they are dying to please drag them across the street so they don’t have to die in that hell hole. I have heard so many stories that are shocking. But it’s not just this factory, it is happening in so many factories nationwide and internationally. It happened to my father in law in another state when he retired too. He ended up with nothing by the time he retired. But at least you don’t have to worry about shutting down through a pandemic. Big business won’t let that happen.

          14. A Victor says:

            You are right Gypsy Heart, I had no idea. I literally have not known of such things as you describe. So narcissists do good things sometimes perhaps, but when it no longer serves their purpose, or alternatively, when they come into power in some way, look out. This is of course assuming your company is run by narcissists. I don’t believe empaths or normals would tolerate such conditions for their fellow humans. Thank you for showing another side of life that is not pretty but that we do will to be aware of.

        3. Leigh says:

          NA, you made a comment about self monitoring so I decided to stop self monitoring and make a comment. One can say that your comment was made to provoke reactions as well. Aren’t all of our comments made to provoke thoughts and reactions? I agree that you and the other bloggers are intelligent people. I knew what I was doing and I knew my comment would provoke. I also knew that people would see that because I do agree that the commenters here are intelligent people. I stand by my comment. The reactions to my comment actually proves my point. Not all self monitoring is because of fear of being disliked. Sometimes its to avoid conflict. Had I self monitored like I usually do, this conversation wouldn’t be happening.

          1. NarcAngel says:

            Leigh
            I honestly have no idea what you are referring to. I don’t recall you making a comment that I considered provocative. I only recall you saying there may be other reasons. Yes, comments are made to provoke thought, I was referring to incidents where people have used them as a veil to create (usually personal) conflict with another and I was not referring to you or anyone specific. We have all seen them over time. If I had something to say to you specifically I would be direct.

          2. Leigh says:

            NA, thank you for your response. Please allow me to apologize. I misunderstood your comment. I thought you were saying my comment about self monitoring was a thinly veiled provocation. On some level, your statement rang true for me because it did provoke reactions. I appreciate that you would be direct. Thank you.

  8. NarcAngel says:

    Wow. That must be one gigantic hard drive.

  9. jasmin says:

    This exchange accordes with what I’ve been hearing from my dad for almost all my life. Feelings of guilt and obligation are deep seated in my construction.

  10. lickemtomorrow says:

    This is a Mid Range Victim narcissist, who uses numerous pity plays, imposition of guilt and passive aggressive behaviour to manipulate her son. That’s my guess.

    Any parent may at times feel a sense of abandonment by their children, but it’s the response that tells the tale. Many parent’s would hold in their sense of disappointment, or annoyance, and still put their children first in terms of understanding their decision making. I think this video really demonstrates the sense of ‘extension’ a narcissistic parent has to their child, with the expectation built in that the child puts the parent first and it is the parent’s needs which are paramount.

    I do believe narcissistic parent’s can also do the opposite to this in terms of manipulation and basically exclude their children who are not co-operative, or even confronting, leading to long term silent treatments. People often assume a narcissistic parent is going to try to manipulate a child using the methods described in this video – and I know a lot of people can relate – but they will also ‘cold shoulder’ a child who they determine to still have control over. This may be done to have the child running back to them, feeling the anxiety of the lack of communication.

    It probably all depends on the type of narcissist, but the parent described definitely appears to be of the Victim variety and her manipulations are based on that.

    1. A Victor says:

      LET, I agree with your mid-range assessment, MMRB Victim? Or MMRA Victim? I feel like she’s more sophisticated than my LMR Victim mom and less than my UMR dad. I’m thinking B since she’s so whiney, but that could be the Victim element. I thought maybe A because she’s taking care of other people, angel with a dirty face? But I’m mostly thinking B.

      1. lickemtomorrow says:

        AV, you’re way ahead of me in terms of knowing the finer details of the different categories of narcissist, so I’m afraid I can’t help pinpoint the specifics, but well done on drilling further down into the options. We’re on the same page with MR and victim element 😉

        1. A Victor says:

          LET, thank you for the compliment though I’m not sure it’s warranted. I feel like I’m just guessing with the narcissists, empaths are easier for me, but I keep trying because the practice helps. I’ve had egg on my face more than a few times guessing narcs wrong! My pool to compare to is so limited, it’s one reason I love the lists so much, and the 20 Bullets option, but it’s fun to guess regardless.

          The Mid Rangers in particular are of interest because they’re so…sneaky and they’re also the most attracted to me, especially MMRA and B. So I keep trying!

          1. lickemtomorrow says:

            AV, I can’t believe I didn’t see these comments earlier, but #Wordpress!

            It’s fun to try and guess the finer details of narc schools and cadres, and I think you have been much more thorough in seeking out that information in regard to the narcissists in your life. I haven’t had the same compunction as all the signs are there and it wouldn’t matter to me how they were classified, knowing they are narcissists is enough. Having said that, when I was finally given the opportunity to do one on the most recent narc his school and cadre helped me make more sense of the enormous impact he had on me. It all adds up, and I can see the usefulness in getting the finer details down so you can understand more clearly the basis for their behaviour and why it had the impact it did. Narcs are not all the same, much as empaths are not all the same, and I’m looking forward to reading HG’s new articles on the differences between us. A lot of people are curious about the narcissist’s take on how we present, as well as what our strengths and weaknesses might be. We have some insight, but there’s more information on some than others.

            I’m very sorry I missed your comment earlier x

          2. A Victor says:

            Hi LET,

            I wasn’t notified of your comment here either, not sure what’s going on but no problem, I’m just glad to have found it. Yes, when I submitted my ex’s NDC, I did not expect it to come back that he was a narc. So when it did, and he is the very kind that HG had told me months earlier was most drawn to me, I realized a huge gap in my understanding. It literally terrified me because I knew I had no idea how to spot that particular kind. So I’ve been focusing on that type, and the B’s also, ever since. I do spot them now more easily but I’ll never feel 100% confident, I will run any man I’m considering through a NDC just to be sure. And honestly, I don’t expect to ever be asked out by a normal or empath. I have come to realize that my way of interacting with people is not a way that normal men would like and I doubt an empathic man would like it either. I was molded to be perfect for a narc, ugh. I am working to change my way of interacting but it’s figuratively like pulling teeth, it makes me so uncomfortable and I don’t even see all the ways I need to be different. So, even with all my study, there is still such a long way to go. Anyway, I apologize, a little frustration at myself and my parents coming out there. Thank you for your comment, I always enjoy our conversations.

          3. lickemtomorrow says:

            AV, I never factored in the aspect of not even suspecting someone was a narc before doing the NDC, but I was aware that some of the outcomes took you by surprise. You also have a lifetime of experiences to deal with and the pain that comes from that.

            I’m hearing you on that front (not expecting someone to be a narcissist) and also on the front of not expecting to be asked out by a normal or empath. Some of us are perfectly moulded to be narc targets and victims due to our upbringing and empath type as well. You’ve stated it in a way that rests on expectations. What to expect and what not to expect. Don’t expect to attract normals/empaths, do expect to attract narcissists and even specific kinds. I really appreciate how you highlighted that element, even if it is frustrating.

            I understand your frustration, but you have made such great progress <3

            I enjoy our conversations, too 🙂

          4. A Victor says:

            Hi LET,

            It’s a matter of extremes, my ex was so much milder than either of my parents, so I did not see it. It also shows just how little I understood, even 5 or 6 months into learning here, it is such a challenging thing to absorb. I think I was in a little denial about him also because if he was a narc, it opened a whole bunch of other cans of worms, things I have been slowly facing since I’ve known the truth about him. That denial is such a real problem, often my first go to it seems.

            I hope the expectation part isn’t the wrong way to look at it, or made it seem negative. It was just kind of stating a fact for me, at this point. Maybe it will change.

          5. lickemtomorrow says:

            AV, it is incredible how we don’t see until we are given the eyes to see these things. We wonder how we could have been so blind. I’ve shared here before how I spoke to the last narc about narcissism (Ha!) never having a clue that I was in the midst of a narcissistic entanglement with him … I felt like such a fool, but there was no denying it in the end. And we do struggle with denial as we see the impact it has on us but others around us as well. We’ve also let these narcs into their lives, or somehow compensated for them, you and I have both had children with them as well. That is something we’ll continue to come to terms with and hopefully manage as best we can.

            I didn’t think the ‘expectation’ part was the wrong way to look at it. I just thought it was an interesting and new perspective which has an element of truth to it. While we are still vulnerable we need to be aware we will potentially still suffer some of the negatives from our past (i.e. attracting narcissists) and will struggle to see how that could change (i.e. attract non-narcs). Maybe and hopefully it will change. That would be my thinking, too.

          6. A Victor says:

            LET,
            I believe we are only allowed to see what we can handle, by our own brains if nothing else. It is a defense mechanism and one I have often been so grateful for. Had I seen everything at once, I would be…who knows where. Yes, denial kept me from seeing the damage that was happening to my children during and after the marriage. Now I see it, in bits, and it is heartbreaking for me. We do manage as best we can.

            Yes, I hope my expectation will change also, but at this time I have no expectation of that happening…😁.

        2. A Victor says:

          No, not easy ahead of you, struggling to learn! These are really tough for me but I continue to try because I want to get them right. #goals

  11. leelasfuelstinks says:

    Listened to it and loved it! Thank you very much, H.G.! 💖

  12. Asp Emp says:

    Muvver ‘slagged’ my paternal grandmother off to me regarding a gold watch that I was given when I was around 2 / 3 years old. Saying that it was selfish not to give my sister the same kind of gift (she still got one!). Muvver used to wear MY watch. Triangulated me with that for around 20 years. I got it eventually as a “gift”, it was mine anyway! Coincidently I got it around 6 months before my grandmother died. FFS. I have and had every right to hate muvver. Fkg b*tch.

    1. lickemtomorrow says:

      AspEmp, this obviously brings strong feelings out in you and I can see why. You were denied something that your Grandmother had given you on the basis that somehow you were being favoured, which isn’t true as your Grandmother had obviously selected a similar gift for your sister. To then take the gift from you speaks of her level of jealousy (inherent in the narcissist) and they will often try to take from you what they cannot have themselves.

      My mother also determined that I should not have anything my sister did not have and I remember one very unique and somewhat different circumstance in relation to that from the time I was a child.

      We had been walking to the local store with my mother on a windy and rainy day. My sister and I had both been given an umbrella which we used on our way to the shop. At one point the wind caught my sister’s umbrella and it must have been a strong gust because it broke her umbrella so it was practically useless. Seeing this, my mother took my umbrella from me and said that if my sister didn’t have an umbrella then I should not have one either. No notion of me sharing with her or perhaps bringing my sister under her umbrella (I’m sure she had one). I was to be the fall guy for the breakage of my sister’s umbrella. It sounds like a very minor thing, and it is compared to many people’s stories, but somehow mine always comes back to the insidious nature of the narcissist, and how in that moment my mother had found another opportunity to diminish me. It didn’t matter that I would get wet now as well, it was not possible for me to have something her ‘golden child’ didn’t have. I don’t know if anyone else can relate to that idea, of never being allowed to shine brighter than the golden child or have possessions they did not have, etc. It makes me curious as to whether you think your sister was favoured, or if you were just scapegoated in the circumstances, AspEmp. The two often go hand in hand.

      Hopefully your ET has come down a little since recounting that story, too xox

      1. Asp Emp says:

        LET, thank you for your response 🙂 Yes, I think I should have been given that when I turned 18. Muvver wore it to show off extravagance (grandiosity) because of the watch itself. I agree on your ‘jealousy’ because my grandmother did not seem to like muvver very much. I am not surprised to totally understand it now. I would have felt / thought the same if it were my son. No doubt her wearing it added to my internal anger.

        OMG. RE: your umbrella story, yes, OMG, basically similar happened to me / my sister. Ah, LET, reading from “of never being allowed to shine brighter than the ‘golden child’ didn’t have”…..yes, I do totally relate and I do understand what it feels like emotionally and mentally. Somehow, they ‘sensed’ ‘The Doormat’ within us, even if we ‘answered’ back, we were still ‘soft’ (easy to break down). Which, in turn, made us the more stronger for it too (as people now). God, our muvver’s are total and utter b*tches. Just a moment of raised ET, with a tinge of sadness because my grandmothers and my father did not do that. I did not deserve it. Neither did you. Yet, we turned out (eventually) to be one of the nicest people to have around. You got it totally right – sister favoured. My ET always comes down again, as it has now, since my typing a moment ago. Muvver is still a fkg b*tch. A dead one 😉

        Thank you for sharing your story here. It is good to read it and relate to, LET 🙂 xx

        1. lickemtomorrow says:

          AspEmp, so glad you could relate to that experience, but only in the sense it’s helpful to have someone else who can identify with it. Neither of us deserved it, and somehow it has helped to make us stronger in the sense we both must have an underlying ‘fighting spirit’ that understood we were being ‘wronged’ and could see the injustice in that. Of course, it’s just confusion at the start … “why is this happening”, “what did I do”, “how come I am less deservering”, “why do I need to compete”, and so on. You are being given a message, but you don’t know why. You just know that you should not set your expectations too high because the narcissist will always attempt to destroy your hopes and dreams. We learn to greet life with a sense of “foreboding joy” – that is joy that can be stolen from you at any moment if the narcissist deems it necessary.

          Sometimes it seems like very few people would understand the pain and anger we carry with us when it comes to the parental narcissist, but I assure you I can relate to your last few words after reassuring that your ET has come down. I’ve been known to express the thought “she’s never going to die” about my mother because that is the sense I have. She will continue to torment me, even though I am now no contact and have been for a long time. The only way I will truly be free is when HG suggests that will happen – when she is dead. I won’t mourn her, I will be glad.

          Thank you for sharing, too, AspEmp <3 It means a lot to have others understand xox

          1. Asp Emp says:

            LET, a great way to word it “You are being given a message, but you don’t know why”. I liked “foreboding joy”- I understand exactly what you mean 🙂 A really good paragraph to read.

            RE: your second paragraph, yes, I agree with you. I do empathise with you RE: your maternal narcissist. I am sorry that you have ‘endure’ that “residue” until she dies. I have to admit by reading your words about ‘mourn’ and gladness – I can just imagine you, if you went, attending the funeral in brightly coloured clothes, skipping away, with the mantra “The witch is dead” 😉 But, knowing you, you may “play” it down a lot. It’s the thought that counts 😉

            For the time being, have you considered using HG’s ‘A Letter to the Narcissist’? Just let your tongue loose and say whatever you need 😉

            I know exactly how you are feeling and wish I could do more to alleviate your ‘burden’. I know that, in the meantime, you will continue to work on your ‘re-programming’ and toughening of your defences.

            Know that you are listened to and understood. You are more than welcome, LET 🙂 xx

          2. lickemtomorrow says:

            AspEmp, thank you for your kind words and suggestion <3

            There is an element of "endurance" involved, so thank you also providing the word that was needed in this context. I've mourned other people's parent's who meant more to me, and that's saying something – mostly about the lack of connection involved when it comes to my own mother. It's actually quite disconcerting to think you are looking forward to the permanent end of relationship in the context of death. I've said here before, at one time in my life I could never imagine such a thing with regard to my parent's. That was before the impact of the narcissistic dynamic hit me with full force. At times, I wish I could feel differently. Then I remember my mother will never change, has no capacity for change, and never truly loved me. In that sense, there will be nothing to mourn, except maybe the mother I never had.

            She originally wanted to donate her body to science. I talked her out of it, on the basis it disallowed a proper period of mourning for others, but it's an indication of how she views even her own life and any mourning to take place at its end. She's within her rights, of course, but it highlights for me that element of disconnect she feels. If I was a narcissist, I might delight at the thought of her being carved up for the sake of science. Perhaps she's returned to her original idea since I've been no contact. Maybe I won't even be informed when she dies. It's very hard to know at this stage what the circumstances might be when the time comes. I'd hope to know, just so I can put the whole thing to rest for good.

            I hadn't thought about the "Letter to the Narcissist", but that's a good idea as a way of getting it all out there. The letters I have read here are incredibly moving and speak for so many of us. Thanks for reminding me, AspEmp x

            Thank you, too, for your encouragement once again 🙂 I really appreciate it.

          3. Asp Emp says:

            LET, that says a lot, that you have mourned other people “who meant more”. I can totally understand that. I was really upset when a really lovely & kind guy died and the impact of that was far, far more than muvver’s passing. He was non-judgemental, accepted me as I am – it was purely platonic, he was such a laugh. That Lesser did not like the friendship we had, he showed no sympathy towards this guy – in fact, he was downright nasty towards him when he was alive but dying of an illness.

            In time, you will feel less of the ‘mourn’ for the mother you never ‘had’. I think by the time ‘comes’ you will feel differently because you already think differently about her.

            LET, forgive me, I started laughing when I read the start of your next paragraph. Donating her body to….Science?! Oh, they’ll have a field day with that body, albeit it will be a very short day (maybe less than an hour – miaow) 😉

            I do and can understand where you say that you would rather know RE: her passing. I am sure you will be informed, somehow and by someone. You’d be able to ‘slam’ that door as soon as you know. I believe you will also ‘sense’ that ‘burden’ and some of that residue leave you as soon as you know for a fact. I sensed similar as soon as I got the text message from my sister (even though I had ‘sensed’ both grandmother and muvver around 10 – 15 minutes before the text arrived). Now, that, is Twilight Zone stuff (and still relevant to Narcsite) 😉

            RE: letter to narcissist. I wrote mine when I was pissed and with very high ET. I re-read it the next day before posting it. Regardless, I ‘felt’ and ‘thought’ the same. It has remained the same now. But I look at it as a ‘fk u’, without getting emotional about it, never mind thinking about it. It is a simple ‘fk u’ and swipe left.

            I am glad you feel some encouragement and do what you need to do for yourself. Always more than happy to support you (you help me too, grealtly 🙂 ), thank you, LET 🙂 xx

          4. lickemtomorrow says:

            AspEmp, I have to admit I was shocked when my mother suggested donating her body – it’s one of those grey areas for me where you once again question the narcissist’s motives – did she intend to ‘deny’ us by donating her body (i.e. removing our right to grieve), was it a truly altruistic sentiment (likely not when it comes to the narcissist), or does she see that as part of her “legacy”, somehow living on past her ‘use by date’ (a little too creepy for me to want to imagine).

            Thanks for your thoughts around her eventual passing, not how I would want or ever imagined things would be, but it’s interesting you sensed the passing of both your mother and grandmother having very different experiences and perceptions of them both. One loving, one not, yet somehow you were finally tuned to the passing of both. I definitely have the concept of ‘release’ in my mind, and I wonder if I will know or sense when I have been released. I do know I have no need to say goodbye. Everything that could or should be said has already been said in silence. It speaks louder than words.

            The ‘fk u’ and swipe left is the place we’d all like to get, I’m sure. Putting the thoughts down on paper probably help us to get to that place. I’m definitely going to give the idea some consideration as a means of catharsis. Most of the time I forget she exists and I’m sure she does the same with me – out of narcissist’s sight, out of narcissist’s mind. My forgetfulness is a purely self protective or defensive mechanism – I need to distance myself from her, so the less I think about her, the better. I have plenty of other things to focus on that help me do that as well.

            Always appreciate your support, AspEmp, and thank you for your thoughtfulness again, too <3 xox

          5. Asp Emp says:

            LET, OMG, I missed your reply! Fooking technology!

            I understand RE: the body and your thoughts around it. Interesting that you suggest the ‘legacy’ and living past the use by date’ (that cracked me up to be honest 🙂 ). Consider this, maybe she can ‘sense’ her creature despite being unaware of what she is, is that the reason she says about donating it to science? She’ll never get the ‘answer’ whether she is living, or not. A body is just a ‘husk’ after someone dies. I know I may be coming across as uncaring – because of what you endured under her “care”.

            RE: my grandmother / mother – I smelt them both being present at muvver’s passing. I smelt flowers – I was not wearing any perfume, nothing in the flat (the home I lived in) had that ‘smell’.

            I think you have learned enough to understand about yourself to know the best way forward for yourself. Being in NC is good. Maybe write a “letter” the next time you feel the need to write something down, you do not necessarily need to send it anywhere, burn it, send it to HG. Or, you could consider a consult with HG instead of writing the letter ‘option’.

            Or, just write a comment on here and let it all out. Thank you for sharing your thoughts, LET, much appreciated 🙂 xx.

          6. lickemtomorrow says:

            AspEmp, “fooking technology” is right!

            No worries about the missed reply, I have been playing catch up as well. Time gets away from me sometimes, as do the notifications x

            I’ve had more thoughts around my mother’s idea of donating her body and your suggestion about the “Creature” is an interesting one. I wonder which well known psychopaths/narcissists ever donated their bodies/brains and what was discovered? The “Creature” will remain a hidden element, as it only exists in the mind or thoughts. The brain may show up differences like it does on an MRI, but in a more direct physical sense.

            I thought it’s possible she said it to get a reaction – pure fuel for the narcissist. If you think about it, not many people donate their bodies to science or are so casual about mentioning it. She might have done it for shock value. I just had this image in my mind of my mother, or parts of her, floating in vats of formalin and the indignity of that.

            Of course, science relies on these things to keep moving forward and she also may have thought that was a way of obtaining a legacy where her body was put to use of some kind. I know there is an argument in favour of this, and I won’t dispute that, much like donating organs as well, and it is her body, but I found it difficult to imagine how I would come to terms with her demise if I considered her just a piece of meat for scientific use or discovery.

            You and I have had a similar experience of smelling an aroma at someone’s passing. It somehow makes it more significant, though I’m not sure how you might see the significance of experiencing both the scent of your mother and your grandmother at your mother’s passing.

            It’s very hard to predict how we’ll react when the time comes, and I’m more likely to want to share in terms of the written word – as in Letter to My Narcissist – when that time comes. For now, I’m going to continue focusing on my family (children) and the celebrations over the Easter weekend <3

            Thanks for your encouraging words once again, AspEmp xox

          7. Asp Emp says:

            Hi LET 🙂

            What I have been doing is copying and pasting the comment link onto a word document and check into that, if WP, nor email notifications come through.

            Yes, I agree about the MRI scans showing a difference in the brain ‘patterns’. There has been a couple of programmes about that on tv. It is interesting how science has progressed into this, then again, it is still relatively recent ‘research’. Maybe one day in the distant future, HG may consider having his brain scanned in this way because his mind is quite remarkably different.

            LET, laughing…..RE: the vats. Thank you for the amusement 🙂

            I agree that organs being donated would be for a good cause. Yet her body for science, she may have got the ‘bigoted’ thought that any scientist would have any interest whatsoever in her body.

            Yes, I thought it was strange about the scent of my grandmother / mother at the same time. It is one of those things that ‘happened’ and cannot really be explained. Some people may poo-poo the suggestion. Others are devout believers.

            It was not a shock to me because I had seen her in hospital and I knew she was close to death. I felt relief more than anything really – like the ‘You Wear Guilt’ main noose had been severed but residue remained (repressed until I came to KTN). Good on you and your mindset (where you are now) 🙂

            I hope you had a great time with your children over the Easter weekend 🙂 Ditto, LET, RE: encouraging. Thank you 🙂 X

          8. lickemtomorrow says:

            AspEmp, great minds think alike 🙂 I occasionally note down a thread on a word document I have created in order to go back to it as necessary. That way WP can’t have the last word in terms of notifications and I hopefully won’t be neglecting anyone either.

            From what I recall, HG did say he’d had a brain scan done, though he did not share anything in relation to the results. That is private medical information, so I can understand that.

            When it comes to my mother, perhaps she wants to think her body will be of some use after she dies, but I doubt it will lead to any new discoveries. Most likely it’s purpose would be to enable medical students to practice their craft which is also necessary. Hardly dignified in that sense, but she might imagine being thanked for it (and I don’t mean that in a derogatory sense to anyone who is thinking of doing the same).

            I don’t “poo poo” the idea of your experience with your mother/grandmother, AspEmp. I know what you mean, though, and not everyone will accept supernatural experiences as being legitimate. It must have been a relief to finally feel that noose being cut and the residue from having worn it so long can take time to dissipate. Certainly with HG’s help we can move the process on with greater effect <3

            We had a lovely weekend, thanks AspEmp, and the Easter Bunny didn't let me down 🙂 xox

          9. Asp Emp says:

            LET, laughing at “WP can’t have the last word” – damn right 😉

            I giggled at “but I doubt it will lead to any new discoveries” and “to enable medical students to practice their craft” – yum, the choice of words 🙂

            Thank you for not ‘poo-pooing’ my experiences.

            Glad to read that you had a good Easter weekend, sounds like you got some well-earned treats 🙂 x

          10. Truthseeker6157 says:

            LET,

            Didn’t want to interrupt your conversation with Asp Emp, but I thought your comment about your mother donating her body to medical science was interesting.

            The first thing I thought was that the body donation was a pity play and future fake. I understand why you are thinking deeper into it, but I honestly think that she said that just for the reaction from you. She wanted to hear how people would wish to visit her after she passed, to mourn to grieve etc. she wanted you to stop her from doing it so she could listen to the protestations.

            She would know your feelings about grief, mourning etc because you have a faith. It was a way of removing something from you. You couldn’t have her emotionally whilst alive and you might not even get her when she’s dead. There’s an element of grandiosity about it too I think.

            If you had said that you thought donation was a good idea, you might have seen more pity play. “Well it’s not as though any of my family would come and visit me is it?” Really, she couldn’t fail. The comment would garner fuel no matter what your response might have been.

            Your mum sounds sly. I can understand why her passing would offer relief to you. The chance to finally close the book on it. It doesn’t sound harsh or strange to me. It’s sounds normal to not want to have to think about it any more.

            The same goes for Asp’s reaction to her muvver’s death. There’s a right to feel anger and to be relieved at muvver’s passing because it signified being free of her. She didn’t deserve a single tear. She wasn’t just absent, she was cruel but in a very underhanded way.

            You both deserved far better and you both know that you did. You couldn’t do right for doing wrong and I think you are entitled to look forward to and be grateful for the finality of the end point that death brings.

            I think Asp’s suggestion of writing a letter is a good idea, or alternatively buy a day pass to a gym, get the boxing gloves on and beat the crap out of the punch bag. Have her in your mind’s eye and let rip. If you lose it completely, that’s fine, go to a different gym next time! Getting your emotions out physically can work really well. I keep a tight reign on mine, but the punchbag gets it on a regular basis !

            Xx

          11. Asp Emp says:

            TS, thank you for the mention and for taking my shared experiences about muvver into consideration. It was good to read 🙂

          12. lickemtomorrow says:

            TS, so glad you decided to share your thoughts here and thank you for offering them up <3

            No doubt my mother would have enjoyed hearing the protestations, but your second paragraph hit the nail on the head for me. It was about 'denial', or removing something from us, much like someone might be left out of their parent's will. The expectation is that we will have an opportunity to mourn and that a body will be treated in some sacred manner. You are correct in that sense to also focus on my beliefs. She does not see any value in them, at the same time an outright rejection doesn't necessarily lead to the idea of donating your body to science. She was going to deprive us and perhaps imagine our distress at the notion of what it could mean. This, of course, is putting the worst case scenario on her intentions. The fact she is a narcissist, it's not hard to do. There is always an ulterior motive, even if she isn't aware of it herself.

            My mother is sly and that's where the element of an unaware narcissist is hard to understand sometimes. How can her behaviours not be calculated? They so often appear designed to hurt. Every now and again I get my head around it – the lack of awareness – but sometimes it still stings as I continue to feel it on a very personal level (i.e. take it personally).

            Thank you for saying that relief at a parent's passing doesn't sound strange to you <3 It's hard to come to terms with the fact that is how I feel as it is not normal for an empath to feel that way, as in it goes against our empathic nature. When it comes to the narcissist, I've learnt my empathy makes no difference to them, so in that sense I'm not denying her anything if I was not to grieve, or even be relieved.

            We have all variety of mother's here for the mauling and we all pay a very high price. I like the idea of the punching bag, and I see how keeping a tight rein on things doesn't have to mean you don't have an opportunity to also let it go! I actually came across someone who conducted "axe throwing" classes as a means of getting it out of your system 😛 Pin their picture to the wall and just send an axe in their direction. It's amazing how versatile can be the ways of ridding ourselves of our angst xox

          13. Asp Emp says:

            LET and TS, ladies, reading the parts about applying physical frustration as a means of letting go…..I have a sledge hammer in the garage and it does do a good job of “minimising” faulty appliances, if they needed minimising (laughing). Unwanted bricks are a good ‘source’ too ;-). I have not had the need to use the sledge hammer for a couple of years, which, to me, is a good sign 🙂

          14. lickemtomorrow says:

            AspEmp, sounds like you have fun in your garage 🙂 Sledgehammer away!

            Though, by the sounds of things, you haven’t needed to exert yourself as much lately.

            That’s a very good sign and I’m glad to hear it <3

          15. Asp Emp says:

            LET, I thought about my sledgehammer yesterday because of HG’s video ‘The House of Tudor’ and thought about getting a couple of stickers, one for the sledgehammer (triangulation)…..as a way of apology to the hammer for not having a reason to use it 😉

          16. lickemtomorrow says:

            Hahah, AspEmp, it must be feeling left out 😛 At least it is ‘literally’ an appliance xox

          17. Asp Emp says:

            It’s a tool, LET, not an appliance 😉

          18. Truthseeker6157 says:

            Hey Asp,

            You’re very welcome. I’ve learned a lot and you have given me food for thought through sharing your story.

            Xx

          19. Asp Emp says:

            Thank you, TS. Much appreciated. 🙂

          20. Truthseeker6157 says:

            LET,

            Thank you for your gracious response to my thoughts. As you know I often feel strange commenting within ACON discussions, but I do read, I do empathise, and I do learn an awful lot from them.

            Yes, I know what you mean about ‘sly’, that description does suggest a planning or an awareness when the unaware narcissist responds only in that moment. They do store up thoughts and information though, your faith, your respect for a family’s right to grieve (or not!) your respect full stop. I see you going through the motions in the event of your mothers passing. The need for things to be done right, as they should be, a respect for family and their thoughts about your mother no matter how misplaced any affection might be. A job well done, but the relief that it’s finally over and no sadness. I think that’s the mark of the person you are. No doubt your mother would store that also. Me too. I still forget the lack of planning aspect and it does sound so very strange.

            They’re sly in that they are passive aggressive. That to me epitomises sly. If you have something to say, say it, out with it, don’t sit and snipe, insinuate or take pot shots. Come at me for goodness sake! I think you’re right, it’s the facade that makes them that way.

            The axe throwing did make me laugh. How brilliant, I love that idea! Sign me up! Weekly! Haha!

            I’m laughing to myself now, not sure how I have gone down this train of thought. If you were a narc, what narc would you be? Haha! I think I’d be in serious danger of being a lesser! I’m not in the top 5% so I’d end up being unaware. If I’m unaware, I’m going to be a wrecking ball. Why not? I am actually entertaining myself now thinking about this. Elite, I’d definitely be elite. I read too much to be Somatic. Although, I would definitely have a six pack and arms like Popeye! I’m showing my age there. Ok, an old Lesser Elite narcissist, prone to asserting control through withdrawal with killer abs, a smart mouth and a beer fridge in my woman cave / bolt hole. I deserve a woman cave I think. Do you think I could get away with fairy lights in there or is that a bit empathy? I’ll stop, I’m enjoying my narc alter ego a little too much. Time to eat the last choc ice out of the freezer…….

            Xx

          21. lickemtomorrow says:

            TS, I think your empathy is more than adequate to enable you to join any conversation here, and people should not think because an experience is not their own they have no right to comment on it. The fact is, as empaths we are well able to put ourselves in others shoes, and even as normals would still be able to garner a perspective on these things. It makes me think of how my NEX would triangulate me with ‘only’ children … that came up early on here and you mentioned then, long ago, you were an only child. It’s a scenario I have never experienced and he thought it was a way of separating or diminishing me by way of comparison (i.e. I wouldn’t understand). The truth is, it was just a ploy to cover his tracks when he occasionally became uncommunicative, or when he wanted to triangulate me with others (including my nemesis – “the snake” – who was also an only child. SHE would understand, be in tune, accept, etc. What a load of bollocks! They were both self centred creatures and used that as an excuse, which I know for a fact you don’t do xox

            Kind of got off track there, but it was to say that I never even consider whether someone is an ACON in terms of whether they understand or could have something to say about it. You are perfectly entitled to speak and also perfectly capable of understanding. Your empathy allows that and even encourages it <3

            Thank you for getting it in terms of how I experienced my mother's notion (donation) and how that would have impacted me. At the time, even though on many occasions she had hurt me deeply, I still held that love and respect which meant I would only have done, or wanted to do, what that kind of esteem would entail. I didn't know she was a narcissist, but had experienced all the fallout from that. I still wanted to show that love and respect when she died.

            My, how the tables have turned. I think my last relationship really sealed the deal on that one. Finding HG allowed me to see and also give me permission to let go what I had already put aside, in terms of my relationship with my mother. She put the nail in that coffin herself when I became aware of her manipulating my children and triangulating them with me.

            Passive aggressive sums it up and I'd rather take one on the chin any day!

            Haha, to your 'alter ego', TS 😛 I'd struggle to see you as a Lesser, though I do respect your thoughts on how you might fit the category with a laid back attitude and desire to enjoy life, too. Sounds good! LOL to the fairy lights 🙂 Not quite sure how they'd fit with beer swilling, but empaths will understand <3

            Hope you enjoyed the choc ice xox

          22. Truthseeker6157 says:

            LET,

            Thank you for sharing your thoughts on the ACON / non ACON discussions. Enough said, next time I’ll monitor myself less. Xx

            I have started monitoring my comments of late. There have been a few threads recently where I started to comment, then deleted and thought “No, that could be misinterpreted, I’ll leave it.” I used to self check my comments a lot at the start, the residual influence of the online narc. Then I settled here and stopped self monitoring. Now I self check again, and if you self monitor too much, you get to the point where there is no point in taking part, which is a little where I’m at with things at the moment. I have a few things going on just now and am a bit overwhelmed, stressed out. I think that’s impacting me quite a lot.

            Totally agree. Your mum attempting to influence your kids would be a red rag to a bull for me too. That takes things to a whole new level and the gloves would automatically come off. If I hadn’t turned already that would be a sure fire way to make it happen.

            Laughing at your thoughts on me as a Lesser. Who am I trying to kid? My beer fridge would be filled with iced coffee and green juice, I would have the fairy lights and scented candles on every night and, there would be cushions. Lots, of cushions. You can’t have a girl cave without cushions. Everyone knows that.

            The more I listen to HG’s analysis of Heard and Pinkett Smith, the more I really dislike the Mid Rangers. I think that’s where my Lesser idea comes from. At least Lessers are more up front with it. So unfiltered you could almost laugh at what they come out with. I struggle to find a redeeming feature in the Mid Rangers now. Nothing to do with my exes either, rather, now that I understand how they operate, I just find them pathetic.

            Johnny Depp is doing well I think. He is being himself and ignoring her. Can’t fault him! Haha!

            Xx

          23. lickemtomorrow says:

            TS, I followed my instinct on the notion of you possibly second guessing yourself and thought the other side of the coin might be that you just wanted to be respectful and acknowledge that was not your experience. I think both have validity, but the second guessing is something I sensed, which is why I wrote what I did. I value your thoughts and your sharing. There will often be someone who can relate and be thankful that their own thoughts are being shared. We can’t afford to lose important voices xox

            I hear you on having a few things going on and feeling a bit overwhelmed <3

            It happens and sometimes we need to withdraw slightly to also deal with our own stuff. You've obviously dealt with a lot in the past and have found the ability to do what needed to be done and keep moving forward. I hope your resilience will give you what you need to meet the latest struggles and know that this is also a place of support. I'm hopeful your consult with HG will also benefit you with whatever you are going through x

            My kids are the line in the sand when it comes to narcissists. Enough said.

            The "girl cave" is beginning to sound a little more empathic, and a little more luxurious 😉 Cushions, yes! Candles, yes. Fairy lights, definitely. Can we have low lighting, calming music and a kettle, too, for tea and sympathy? I'm a hot drink girl when I need some comfort <3 You can always change it up when you're in the mood to party xox

            I'm with you on the Mid-Rangers. I can't tolerate them at all and hope to give them a wide berth going forward. The Lessers can be a laugh, and I also appreciate their more straightforward nature. No filters, no facade. At least you know what you are getting. I'll forgo the Lower Lesser with their propensity to violence, though. I can see why you would lean toward Lesser with the more honest perspective they can provide and the lack of 'back doors', which is what we find with all the others. At least the Greaters have some charm about them, but their malice is not something you would want to entertain.

            Oh dear, Johnny Depp does not have my sympathy in the same way he has yours … though I do think it's important that Amber Heard isn't able to play the victim in the scenario and must also be called out on her own behaviour. She's not innocent and there is no doubt she aimed to push his buttons to get him to react, which he did. If this was an effort to clear his name, though, I feel it has significantly backfired as we see two adults behaving badly and out of control at times. It is not edifying at all, and the case should have been kept behind closed doors. I'm not sure why it's been turned into a media circus. Of course, we have court reporting, but to televise this 'trash' is disturbing to me. Perhaps it's better in some ways we get to see it ourselves and don't need to rely on the opinions of others. It's one of those 'car crash' relationships and we are being exposed to the minute details of that crash. I just can't be drawn into this one for some reason. I do see many people second guessing their original assessment of Depp, so it will be interesting to see what HG concludes.

            That being said, I better wander over to YT to see what HG has been up to 😉 x

          24. Truthseeker6157 says:

            LET,

            You’re instincts were correct. A mixture of the two. Xx

            Thank you, hopefully things will resolve themselves positively over the next couple of weeks. It’s a waiting game more than anything else, patience isn’t my strong suit haha!

            You raised the bar with the music in the cave, yes something chill yet atmospheric. Philip Ayers, something like that. The kettle goes without saying. I’m fully addicted but largely immune to caffeine. My pre workout drink would put most people in hospital I think haha!

            I know what you mean about Johnny Depp. I would say Contagion empath strong Saviour element or vice versa. It isn’t clear cut for me either though. Empath or not, if he did hit Amber Heard then there are no excuses for that. I’d find it very difficult to defend him in that scenario even if he is an empath and she a narc.

            I do think she followed him repeatedly provoking him though, not letting him leave. A Contagion would really struggle with that, any man would struggle with that. Vile behaviour on her part and I think he has been backed into a corner if he has hit her. Everyone has a limit. She might have found his.

            I know what you mean, this feels more sordid and far more intrusive than the Will Smith / Jada scenario.

            Thank you again for your further thoughts and for understanding me so well.

            Xx

          25. lickemtomorrow says:

            TS, I thought it would be good to provide the other perspective in terms of being respectful because I know that would be on most empaths minds as well <3 We try to do the right thing, that is our nature, but that nature also calls for us to be true to ourselves as well. Empathic trait of 'honesty'? Like anything, a balance to be found and we work towards that constantly x It's where we need to determine both giving the benefit of the doubt and hoping others will do the same for us.

            Don't judge me … I've got no idea who Phil Ayers is 😛 He might be my cup of tea …

            And for God's sake, what do you put in your workout drink? It must be strong!

            Does it put hairs on your chest? 😉

            Yes, I agree this trial feels far more sordid and intrusive than Jada and Will, and I have a gut reaction to the awful revelations coming out between bad 'language', bad behaviour, lack of self control, drug and alcohol abuse, but mostly the way they have hung eachother out to dry in full view of the public with all the meanness and ugliness that entails. Like I said somewhere else, it hurts my empath heart to hear these things and to know what both these people endured and also put one another through. It's like "The War of the Roses", unedifying and disturbing to me.

          26. Asp Emp says:

            LET, it’s been years since I last watched ‘War of the Roses’, it is very tame compared to what is coming out RE: Will & Jada; Johnny & Amber. I thought it was interesting that there are suggestions that the Johnny & Amber story seemingly being worse than the Will & Jada. Will has been in a marriage for over 20 years, how long was Johnny married to Amber for? On Will’s part, it appears more insidious because it is not as apparent to other people outside, not even to Will himself. Johnny appears to be more aware of what had happened ie understanding the behaviours because Amber is more ‘visual’ with her manipulations. Johnny seems to be more ‘switched’ on compared to Will, what is the main difference between to the two men? There is only around 5 years in age difference between them, so that can be ‘ruled’ out. Has Johnny had more therapy compared to Will? Will’s relationship has not been as public as Johnny’s to Amber. Will’s father; Johnny’s mother being the abusers. There are quite significant differences between the two couples. The only similarity is both the wives are the narcissist in the relationship. Will’s ‘scenario’ as depicted through HG’s videos impacted me a great deal, Johnny’s case, not so much because he appears stronger than Will.

          27. lickemtomorrow says:

            AspEmp, thanks for adding your perspective on the differences in these two relationships. They are very different, and no one comes out looking well from either of them. Will Smith because of ‘the slap’, and you may have read my perspective on that if we consider him to be an empath, and Johnny Depp because he has chosen to air his dirty laundry in public, though at this point I don’t see him as an empath.

            Johnny may appear to be stronger than Will because he is not an empath.

            I also believe Amber Heard has suffered in a way Jada Pinkett Smith has not.

            I don’t perceive an element of personal violence in the Smith’s marriage the way I do in Depp’s marriage to Heard. Will Smith definitely appears to be more of a victim, though all the people concerned appear to have been victimised in their childhood. It’s what makes us narcs and empaths. That fine line where genetics also plays a part, and looking at these two relationships we can see how different the outcomes can be. I’m no expert (that’s why I’m here), but I do rely on my gut instinct as an empath and I think we are seeing two very different kinds of relationships, my guess is narc on narc for the Depp-Heard fiasco. It’s far too volatile to involve an empath.

          28. Asp Emp says:

            LET, I understand and respect your perspectives where Johnny is concerned. I suggest that Johnny is pretty ‘clued’ up on what Amber is and the fact he has been away from her, he has strength to “deal” with her over the court process. He could have high narcissistic traits, but not a narcissist (in my opinion and from watching a couple of short videos of the court process), he has not shown any emotional ‘outbursts’, or ‘outpourings’ whilst in court. He does, appear to have an idiosyncratic sense of humour, which he manages (just!) to control. Maybe he is a sensitive (caring) person but not Geyser like, if you can understand?

            I also understand why you may suggest narc on narc where Depp / Heard are concerned. Is Johnny somebody with a high level of cognitive empathy but has lower levels of emotional empathy? Does he display compassionate empathy? Is he a Co-Dependent, with some Contagion (hence the drugs from when he was around 11 or so?). Interestingly, when I watched him in the ‘Pirates of the Caribbean’ film, I did wonder whether he had been ‘smoking’ and, apparently he was during filming. Does he have more Carrier and Magnet than Saviour?

            In any case, I look forward to HG’s analysis on Johnny. What I do know is that Johnny was abused by his mother, hence his drug-taking to deal with the ‘residual’ pain from his childhood.

            Sorry it took a while for a reply to your comment. Good to read what you have to say, LET, thank you 🙂

          29. lickemtomorrow says:

            AspEmp, the respect goes both ways, and I honestly didn’t have an opinion on Johnny Depp one way or the other when the trial started. I knew Amber Heard was found to be truthful about the violence she suffered at the hands of Depp at the conclusion of the trial in the UK. I never followed it and didn’t particularly like her, assuming she was determined to make Johnny out to be the ‘bad guy’ for her own purposes (woman scorned, whatever). So, I wasn’t particularly sympathetic to either of them.

            What has changed my mind, or finally filtered through, is the testimony given by Amber Heard. My gut instinct tells me she is telling the truth about the assaults he perpetrated on her and her description of domestic violence matches some of my own experiences. There is an element of ‘dissociation’ about her testimony which HG puts down to her narcissism. While there could be a connection (since I am not an expert on narcissism), I believe these elements of dissociation are based on trauma. People in abusive situations will find something outside of themselves to focus on as a means of enduring extreme trauma. Amber remembers what the manager in the caravan park was wearing because she was still in a state of shock. Those details would normally be overlooked, but they are burned into the mind of someone who has experienced trauma. Irrelevant details are noted, like the style of the wallpaper on the wall during a sexual assault, as a means of blocking the trauma out. The instance of Amber’s dog stepping on a bee could also be burned into her mind on that occasion. Irrelevant to the proceedings, but seared into the memory.

            When she said she felt no pain when Johnny was basically raping her with a bottle, this can also be accounted for if it’s tied in with an element of dissociation. Something else I shared here where an ACON described not feeling the pain of her mother’s beating, but seeing the pieces of the book being used to give her that beating flying all around her while at the same time noticing her younger brother sitting on the floor in distress a few feet away. It’s possible to zone out from the pain and think the kind of thoughts Amber thought – “I hope it’s not the broken one”. I see this as valid testimony and can relate to some of her experiences which I mentioned elsewhere.

            Every one of the scenarios she described are believable to me, and it was gut wrenching to have to hear them. The moments she described Johnny as not being there anymore, as though someone or something had taken his place. How we long for the return of Dr Jekyll when we suddenly find ourselves confronted with Mr. Hyde. Her attempt to try to let him know it was her, and the maniacal bashing of the phone against the wall, as if it was her he was smashing to pieces and not the phone while he screamed at her. That sounds like a major ignition of fury, in fact all these instances do, and no doubt drink and drugs will have affected his ability in terms of control.

            I’m biting the bullet on this one, and regardless of Johnny Depp’s outcome I believe he assaulted and abused Amber Heard, on the basis of which he can rightfully be called a “wife beater” … I don’t see how he can win this case either.

          30. Asp Emp says:

            LET, firstly, thank you (respect) 🙂 x

            I’d agree with you RE: disassociation. Abused children will learn to do that, without understanding what it is they are doing. That can lead to them growing up and not ‘unlearn’ that coping mechanism they had developed. Some become aware of it and understand why they did it (ie empowered with knowledge empaths, or, even continue to do so = both narcissists and empaths? It is probably similar to the day-dreaming / imaginary friends that starts as a young child. What is interesting though, is that it is not something that is taught. It seems to be part of the survival / instinctual ‘responses’.

            Yes, I’d agree with what you say in regard to victims and trauma ie blocked out etc. Mine was not necessarily blocked out, it was mentally and emotionally ‘trapped’, and I found a way to release it, examine it and put it away, fully aware of it’s impact that had haunted me for a life time. Narcissists cannot do that because it is hermetically sealed in within themselves. Amber is unconsciously using avoidance tactics via her instincts.

            I recall reading HG’s video on Amber’s childhood, and about her father’s behaviours. There is a possibility that her father carried out some abuse that we will never know about because she would just re-write the history of what happened, ie using that into something that she says Johnny did but did not actually do. Her father had abused animals too. This is where I think, her “idea” of shitting the bed ‘stems’ from.

            I understand what you mean RE: Johnny smashing the phone against the wall. I’d be inclined to suggest Johnny reacted in the same way as Will Smith did when he slapped Chris Rock? No rational thought, no logical thinking, pure instinctual response.

            Yes, drink / drugs can add to the mental / emotional responses. I’d like to add here that, apparently, Amber’s sister revealed about her drink ‘issue’ in court. When I saw that video online, I wondered what Amber’s sister is (ie narcissist, or empath).

            It is good to be able to discuss this in the way we are doing. Thank you, LET and we will just have to wait (with much patience) for HG’s analysis on Johnny 🙂

          31. lickemtomorrow says:

            AspEmp, thank you for sharing more of your thoughts with me x

            Childhood trauma will have had an affect on both people involved (Johnny and Amber). In this instance, I’m not talking about childhood trauma, but trauma experienced as an adult. My contention may be that a narcissist – as HG has deemed Amber Heard to be – can still experience trauma and require a response to that.

            This is a question that has not been posed before as far as I know – how does a narcissist experience trauma? They cannot be immune to the possibility.

            My other contention is that abuse is abuse is abuse. In that sense, it matters not if Amber Heard is a narcissist, she has been physically abused and is entitled to say so as well as be offered sympathy for her experiences. The difficulty appears to be whether she is to be believed. I believe her.

            If you see the video of Depp raging in the kitchen of their home or hotel, slamming cupboards, breaking glass, smashing a bottle down on the table after filling his glass with wine, challenging her after she questions him, these are the antics of someone out of control, quite threatening and likely to be abusive. Where some might see alcohol or drug induced rage, I see narcissistic fury.

            Her sister’s testimony indicates more of Johnny’s controlling behaviour, and interestingly he also admitted in the the UK trial that he felt the need to control what she wore:

            “The 57-year-old star — who confessed he “can be jealous” — told London’s High Court that he would fight with his now-ex over her “pretty girl image,” which he repeatedly begged her to tone down, according to the Evening Standard.

            “I told her she didn’t have to be naked in films, you don’t have to do that,” Depp reportedly said, also asking Heard not to wear sexy outfits to premieres.

            He accused of “actress bulls–t” in saying she didn’t want to be objectified while still looking sexy and starring in “the same type of films” against his advice, the UK paper said.

            “If she didn’t want to be objectified … I thought it best she try to be a little more reserved in her approach to her films and her approach to how she presents herself in public,” he told the court Tuesday, according to the report.

            “I would never tell her what to wear but I would certainly make mention if I thought what she was wearing was going completely against the grain of what she told me her wishes were,” he said.”

            The hallmark of a narcissist.

            Her sister describes how Amber deteriorated in the context of their relationship, and it once again displayed all the hallmarks of a narcissistic dynamic – panic attacks, anxiety, sleeplessness, she was teary and couldn’t relax, she lost weight, became quieter and seemingly virtually a shell of her former self.

            Depp called her disgusting names – “f**king cu**, f**king used up trash bag, slimy wh**e, saggy wh**e. F**king cunt was thrown out a bunch.”

            He apparently cheated on her just after their wedding. Another hallmark of the narcissist.

            I guess I’m making two points here – Depp is a narcissist and he is also an abuser.

            In actual fact the two things go hand in hand, but interestingly Depp’s name was never mentioned in her article, which referred more to men and misogyny in general and her younger years as opposed to her time spent with Depp. Heard says the only person who made the Op-Ed about Johnny was Johnny himself. He sued the Sun newspaper after being called a “wife beater” and the outcome went against him. He wanted another bite of the cherry and to humiliate Amber Heard, making her relive the trauma he originally put her through, and of course the narcissist always has to win.

            My leaning towards the truthfulness of Heard’s testimony and that of her sister comes from my gut, as does my recognition of domestic violence in the context of a marriage. It’s a fact that provocation can occur igniting the fury of a narcissist, and I think that is what we are seeing. The phone smashing is a classic example. I do not believe we are seeing an empath in distress and a response to that, I think we are seeing and hearing the result of a full blown ignition of narcissistic fury. In the context of that, physical violence is not beyond the realms of possibility.

            In finishing, the whole trial rests on whether Amber Heard defamed Johnny Depp by penning an Op-Ed claiming to be a victim of domestic abuse. The Court in the UK found she was a victim and that her testimony was truthful. His name is not mentioned in the Op-Ed, and it is more representative of the need to speak out against such treatment and the fall out from that.

            “I had the rare vantage point of seeing, in real time, how institutions protect men accused of abuse.

            Imagine a powerful man as a ship, like the Titanic. That ship is a huge enterprise. When it strikes an iceberg, there are a lot of people on board desperate to patch up holes — not because they believe in or even care about the ship, but because their own fates depend on the enterprise.”

            I can only rest on HG’s article “Why Can’t They See It, Too?”

            It’s a classic representation of how the narcissist is able to pull the wool over people’s eyes so that the victim remains unseen and unheard.

            I know I’ve gone on a bit of a rant there, AspEmp, and it’s only to clarify my perspective, not to say that your own thoughts don’t have some validity if we try to look at things from a number of perspectives. For me it’s not about whether Amber Heard is a narcissist, or even Johnny Depp. It’s about whether she was abused, and I believe she was. In my opinion, Johnny Depp is not the victim here.

            I also appreciate the conversation and thank you, too, for opening it up x We are going to have to wait for further analysis from HG, and patience is the word 😉

          32. Asp Emp says:

            LET, thank you for sharing more of your thoughts.

            With regard to Johnny’s statements in regard to what AH wore at events and so on. I would suggest that, in my opinion, I would ‘tone it down’ myself, out of respect (for him and myself). There is a time and place for the type of clothing to wear. Just like MM wearing that red dress at that war veteran event, it was OTT for the type of event.

            JD cheated just after their wedding? Wow.

            In any case, now that it seems that you got JD closer to narcissistic than I did. After the conclusion of what JD is, I have wondered about myself in that regard. I am not blind to my own narcissistic traits and I recognise them / can see them for what they are.

            Anyway, it was good to chat about this, thank you 🙂

          33. lickemtomorrow says:

            AspEmp, massive apologies for missing this earlier (if indeed I did) as I am only seeing it now.

            I get your point about making decisions around how we dress and that also showing a level of respect both for ourselves and our relationships. I don’t think Hollywood gives much credence to the notion of being ‘demure’ on the red carpet, though some stars nail it. Others might as well just walk the red carpet naked, they leave so little to the imagination. I guess where I see Johnny’s narcissistic trait here is in even involving himself in the conversation around what Amber Heard wore on the red carpet. It sounds controlling and is a red flag for me. Please understand, I am basing this on what HG has taught us, and I’d rather err on the side of caution at this stage in my life. Almost every article HG has penned I feel I could apply to Johnny Depp – even though he is not a full blown narc according to HG – and to me it is a master class in how we, as empaths, can get it so wrong when it comes to the narcissist. Every one should take heart in the fact that we have been given a master class by the ‘master’ and should not shy away from getting wrong (including me). What’s important is the learning, and HG is a great teacher in that respect. I think that’s the way to look at it xox

            I just mentioned my own narcy traits to TS and the fact that I actually relish them at times! None of us are immune to the sense of power or enjoyment we can gain from feeling in control and not downtrodden. As empaths we are often downtrodden and it’s a relief when we can actually seize back some of that power. I think it’s our narcy traits that allow us to do that and I don’t see it as a bad thing. It’s about survival at times, and other times it’s about overcoming what was designed to bring us down. The fact you can see these traits for what they are indicates to me that you have the insight, AspEmp and I’ve seen you many times display an enormous amount of empathy here. I don’t doubt your empathic nature, and can relate to your fighting spirit which is one of the things that helped get you through. Narcy traits are not always negative if they are used for the right purposes and at the right times.

            It is good to chat and thanks for your feedback, AspEmp <3 xox

          34. Asp Emp says:

            LET, hello 🙂 It’s fine 🙂

            I agree with what you say in regard to “to dress, or not to dress” 😉 Some wear it well, others don’t. LOL.

            I do understand and respect what you say about Johnny and the red flags. I was ok about being wrong about Johnny. Part of the difficulty to ‘nail’ Johnny down was the fact his drug / drink issues and ADHD contributed to the masking of the narcissistic personality and the behaviours, yet some were obvious. Having said that, what Amber accused him off is debatable to a degree because of the way she came across in court.

            “None of us are immune to the sense of power or enjoyment we can gain from feeling in control and not downtrodden” – absolutely 🙂 I had the “misfortune” to be dealing with a MRN, or even a Lesser the other day. It was the circular word salads, “refusal” to answer my repeated question (so I still do not have an answer to that); the condescending manner she spoke to me; the “refusal” to take accountability; the deflection and what she said. It is the what she said that I was most unhappy about and will be contacting the equality advice line (hence my not raising the complaint over the Bank Holiday weekend) before I raise the formal complaint with the “service provider”. It is the principle because their accessibility policy states various things and they are not being ‘met’ so to speak. If it happened to me, it will happen to someone else. It was around 15 minutes of interaction and second time I met this ‘thing’ but there were so many clues to “inform” me. And do you know what? I remained calm but firm. That, in itself, is unusual of me. That is what HG’s work has enabled me to do, not get as upset and be able to recognise such people and this time, I will let the bosses do the mauling, including throwing the book at them 🙂

            Yes, HG teaching us about narcissism, how he puts the information across is exemplary. I liked the ‘is it empathic, or is it narcissistic’ and the examples that he used in delivering the analysis on Johnny. It makes people think. To be honest, I was bordering on the ‘fence’ for a few days before the ‘reveal’.

            Thank you for your words of ‘affirmation’ that I am basically a bit of this, that and everything else 🙂 🙂 Good to read 🙂

            I agree with you “Narcy traits are not always negative if they are used for the right purposes and at the right times” – that is one lesson that we have learned that it is ok to do (grinning). Thank you for that, I am going to use mine “effectively” in a while and set my phone on fire with my “narcy traits” 🙂

            Thank you for chatting, LET 🙂 xx

          35. lickemtomorrow says:

            AspEmp, I see you are taking the reins with the MR narc you’ve been forced to deal with and also nailed down quite a few indications they are a narc. The clarity you’ve gained since being here has removed some of the ‘red mist’ we often experience as ACONS. Sounds like you feel a much greater sense of control (which we were all lacking as children) and also an ability to hand it over (pass your complaint to the higher ups) as necessary.

            Laughing at you preparing to use your ‘narcy traits’ effectively and set your phone on fire 😛 Looking forward to hearing the results!

            Always good to chat, AspEmp <3 xox

          36. Asp Emp says:

            LET, I have shared more about this incident on https://narcsite.com/2022/05/31/harrys-wife-spray-tan-mirroring/ I made sure that my ET / LT were in balance as I wrote the letter. I posted it today. But, it has impacted me – not because of necessarily just from a LOCE point of view but also from an unnecessary provocation of my co-dependency if you can understand. I hate having to be forced to explain my need for reliability of a service that is already available but being “denied” by some little shi*e who did not make sure that it was made available (a month ago), after informing me that she had done what I asked her to do – the policy states “will help set up your phone”. BS. I can’t use the mobile to call to connect my mobile to a service provider – that is the same old problem across the board. This is the 4th provider in 15 years…..fkg hell. Sorry to load it down here. This time, a narcissist truly and royally fked up, fked around with the wrong person who happens to be empowered with knowledge and wisdom LOL. Thank you for listening xx

          37. lickemtomorrow says:

            AspEmp, I’m glad you got your letter off and hopefully it is out of your head for now.

            There is an element of lack of control where you have been promised or guaranteed something that has not been provided and where you are forced then to request the service be provided. The power to do what needs to be done is in someone else’s hands and they are delaying it. I can understand your frustration and upset, especially when aspects of communication are already difficult for you. We’ve come to rely so much on our devices and it can really mess us up if they can’t be used effectively.

            Always happy to listen, and hopefully you’ll get the desired result xox

          38. Asp Emp says:

            LET, thank you for understanding and listening xx

          39. Truthseeker6157 says:

            LET,

            Haha, no judgement. Philip Ayers is a recent discovery. I have a sneaking suspicion that Philip Ayers is actually HG. I wondered if he might bite if I threw the name out there, too obvious.

            I remember commenting on KHG ages ago ( I think it was on that side) that HG might compose music for films or video games.The specific mention of the speakers, the name Alastor, some of the weaponised empath names tie in with video games.

            HG works in a sound proofed office. I’m not being funny, but as an IPPS would you not find that strange? How many people do you know who work in a sound proofed office? Office, or studio? I don’t know any outside of Nashville. The keypad to get in has a musical code also.

            The countdown piece in KTN is an original piece. The composer of the most recent Patreon piece is Philip Ayers. I haven’t found any information at all about Philip Ayers, just the music. That’s odd too. Another contender would be Gabriel Lewis. (I like the name Gabriel). The general mood of Gabriel Lewis is very similar. Again, little on Gabriel Lewis, though there is one who is a member of an Australian band. Different guy though to the one who has released the music I have listened to. I think so anyway.‘Oh the Humanity’ feels like HG to me. As does ‘One Last Drama‘ by Ayers.

            HG was interested in the frisson conversation. He would be if he was composing. To bring out a heightened emotional response in a listener whilst they were playing a game or watching a film would be very useful. Interestingly, I did get mild frisson when listening to One Last Drama. A little, not a lot 😜

            If HG isn’t Philip Ayers, at least I found some new music I like!

            My pre workout drink haha! It contains 200-400 mg of caffeine depending how I make it. I don’t add much water, down in one so it’s speed of delivery and absorption into the blood rather than the caffeine content itself. It doesn’t put hairs on my chest ( cheeky!) though I did achieve my personal best on a narrow reverse grip lat pull down today. 110 lbs, not that far off pulling my own body weight now 😎💪😎. Bet HG doesn’t lat pull that much more. Rawrr. Challenge? Why not? Haha!

            Xx

          40. lickemtomorrow says:

            Oh my, TS, this is a fascinating comment!

            The musical theme intrigues me, and I’m going to ponder that for a while. You have been searching in areas I have not even considered and are far beyond my expectations. Once upon a time I had thought HG could be Martin Gore – who apparently lives close to the Harkle’s in Montecito – but that was just a fleeting thought 😛 I guess the musical element had crossed my mind, but not to the same extent it has yours. Of course, you know I’m going to have to look into this and check out some Phil Ayers and Gabriel Lewis (never heard of him/them either!). The mind is a fascinating thing, and how ours work is truly fascinating. Imagine the Ultra.

            I didn’t know HG was interested in the ‘frisson’ conversation (can’t remember him commenting), but it has been part of my experience as long as I can remember. That will be something else I will focus on when I listen to the pieces you mention, though it seems we do have very different tastes in music 🙂

            Also, how did you know HG enters his study with a melody? I knew it was coded, but thought it would be a numeric code, nothing more, nothing less. I’m obviously missing something (clues) and will need to do more homework and perhaps check out Patreon, which I haven’t done yet. I was intrigued, but held back with all the various avenues HG gives us to appreciate his work – in other words, I can’t keep up!

            Good Lord, that drink sounds like it would put hairs on your chest 😉 and the cheek of me indeed to suggest such a thing … it’s obviously powering you up to ‘pull’!

            Throwing out a challenge to the Ultra? Now you’re talking (and perhaps better start walking as I doubt you want to take HG on in any challenge, let alone a physical one).

            Good to touch base again, and I’ll let you know if I appreciate the homework task once it is complete <3 xox

          41. Truthseeker6157 says:

            LET,

            You set me off laughing here. Challenging the Ultra, and to a pull up competition as well haha! I’m so full of it sometimes. Although, I might be happy to take an excruciatingly embarrassing loss for the team if we could see a masked HG on the bar. Shirtless obviously, or it doesn’t count. I don’t embarrass myself for nothing haha!

            Funny, I had Martin Gore as a possible too. It was the ‘hiding in plain sight’ angle. I drew the same conclusion as you, not HG. The musical key pad. You have me thinking now where I got that from. Possibly in one of the blog Q&A, possibly in KHG. Honestly can’t remember, hopefully I didn’t dream it! It’s definitely strongly in my head because I considered that the musical code might be the first six notes of Memphisto. I liked the idea of that, I was driving, the song came on and my mind was kind of empty when I had that thought. I’d been considering various songs as candidates for the code.

            I think there are clues placed as red herrings and there will be clues that look like meaningless throwaway details. It’s the throwaways that we need to watch out for I think.

            My musical taste is entirely erratic. There are some songs on my play list that just don’t fit me at all, I’m all over the place with music. I’m sure we would share some common ground in the depths of a playlist somewhere! The only thing I don’t listen to is what I would describe as “intentionally happy” music. Nothing hoppity skippity! I’m not great with calm either, I’m not a calm person haha! Drama, I like some drama in my music I think.

            You did make me chuckle there.

            Xx

          42. lickemtomorrow says:

            Haha, TS, I like your idea of taking one for the team and I imagine you would be trounced, but a shirtless Ultra might be worth the hit 😉

            You had Martin Gore as a possible, too? Well, well, well. That makes two of us trying out the hiding in plain sight angle. It’s probably an insight into how both our minds work – it’s too obvious and therefore not likely, which means it’s definitely worth considering. As I said, a fleeting thought on my part, but I went far enough to find out where Martin Gore is located. Interesting to find the connection between him and the Harkle’s. There are multiple rabbit holes we could go down, that’s the problem. The other problem is I’m not sure we’re any closer to getting any answers. Might have to wander over to KHG to see if any further mysteries have been uncovered, and maybe pose a thought or two.

            Yes, I think we’d have to go into the depths of the playlist to find something that matches 😛 I’m very eclectic when it comes to music, and often find words more meaningful, but tunes also move me greatly. I can listen to anything from classical to modern pop, I do Rap as well as EDM (thanks to my son!) Music is something that my soul relates to and therefore I don’t experience any type of barrier to sound as it were. It’s how I feel and how it moves me. If we consider HG’s latest offerings on YT, the most ‘touching’ of those musical episodes for me would be the “Johnny Depp” or “Edward Scissorhands” style musical interlude. I described it as “fantasy film’ type music. I don’t listen to music to relax, I’ve just realised. I listen to music to be moved in some way, to be inspired, to be uplifted. It’s the creative aspect of music I enjoy. Alternatively, it’s to express an emotion. I will play music which connects to my emotions at any given time. That could be anger, sadness, longing, hope, joy. The list goes on.

            I sensed you like an element of drama in your music from what you’ve shared. I don’t know if you’ve checked out Phil Ayers (which I did) on YT under Epic Music Collection and his “Ready for War”, but I think you’d enjoy that. If you hit the “show more” button it will open up the playlist for the various offerings which run in sequence and the whole piece lasts for 25mins or so. It’s a film ready playlist, and Epidemic Sound lists all his works, from what I can see, as well as collections under various headings where his music has been included. I’ve got more discovery to do.

            Glad I could make you chuckle, TS 🙂 xox

          43. Viol. says:

            lickemtomorrow:

            I believe Jada’s grandmother taught her how to masturbate when she was growing up. I don’t know if she just told her how it’s done or physically demonstrated it on herself or on little Jada, but either way, it is intrusive and a disgusting appropriation of someone else’s feelings. Also unnecessary, because most kids figure it out for themselves.

            The grandmother’s rationale was Jada would know a man couldn’t do anything to please her that she couldn’t do herself, but rather than taking power away from men she might encounter and giving it to Jada, it gave the power to her grandmother. I’d call that a LOCE.

            As for Amber, I haven’t followed the case that closely, but I’d bet money on both sexual and physical abuse, probably from a very young age.

            There are so many ways of fucking up kids and I’m no longer sure Philip Larkin was right when he wrote, “They may not mean to.”

          44. lickemtomorrow says:

            Violetta, Wow, just wow! If that’s not a violation, I don’t know what is. I’d also call that sexual abuse in the circumstances.

            If it hasn’t been determined whether her grandmother was a narcissist, I’d say definitely to the possibility. It’s amazing how the narcissist can turn anything around to explain their own depraved needs by creating a rationale to somehow make it plausible or acceptable – Jada didn’t need a man to please her, she could please herself, and this was how she could do it (cue sexual abuse scenario).

            There are boundaries when it comes to sexuality that should never be crossed by an adult when it comes to a child. If those boundaries are crossed then I agree, it’s for the adult’s purposes and satisfaction while giving greater power to the adult over the child. I’m curious to know when Jada shared this and what her take on it was – as in how she was affected by that. Did she simply accept her grandmother’s explanation or was she challenging it by bringing it up at a later date (as in WTF?!).

            The notion of female empowerment has also been abused in many ways. There was a ready made excuse for her grandmother to abuse her, even by way of explanation as to how to reach climax. It’s possible Jada’s grandmother ruined every potential relationship with a man for her because she basically told her she didn’t need a man, and that physical pleasure – the ultimate source of intimacy for a couple – was hers to own and thus could be disconnected from any type of intimacy.

            It’s not just narcissistic parent’s who help to ruin their children’s lives, but narcissistic grandparent’s as well. I wonder what her mother thought?

          45. Truthseeker6157 says:

            LET,

            Oooh, great find on YouTube! I was on Spotify but yes Epic Music Collection does list everything out. I listened to Ready For War. I see why you would choose that for me and yes we have the drama I like in that one. I just listened to Raise the Black Flag. That would suit me too.

            If you placed the song titles beside facts we have in KHG I think they would correlate. That said, we can make anything fit if we try hard enough. The online narc communicated through song titles in a joint playlist. I saw exactly what I wanted to see so I definitely have a tendency to read into things too much! Raise the Black Flag though? Our minds have to sit up at that surely haha!

            I could talk music with you for hours. You summed it up perfectly. I don’t listen to music to relax either, I use it to feel something. Dip my mood, rev myself up, wake up the fight in me, all sorts of reasons. I do think empaths are susceptible to music, partly because of those extra clusters of connections around the insula but also because of the way we listen.

            We listen to people as they speak, it isn’t a lazy listening. It’s a ‘listening into’ people as they speak. I’ve always referred to it as ‘reaching’. I can’t think of another way to describe it really. Maybe it’s linked to the Truthseeker trait? We look for information and lock on to draw everything we can out of the interaction. Genuine curiosity and a real desire to understand. I honestly don’t think the normals do it. They surface listen, just the words. They miss the choice of words, the emphasis on a word, what lies behind the words. I think this is why we are good people readers, we actually bother to listen properly.

            The narcissist is similar I think. They listen in because they are searching for the emotion contained within the words. They listen to check for control or threats to control. They feel similar to us because they notice. We recognise that they notice, and it tells us ‘he is like me’. The art of the con right there. Add in their mirroring and all our senses are saying ‘friend’. They scramble our senses and we see what we want to see. I don’t necessarily think that we always want to see ourselves. We want to see someone who we believe is similar to us, carries that depth, who understands the hidden subtext of the conversation, who feels the hidden heartbeat of life.

            It’s actually quite sad, two very similar creatures in so many ways, yet with such opposing intentions and such catastrophic consequences.

            Not sure what happened there! Started off on music and went all philosophical on you haha! Must be that damn Philip Ayers music I’ve been listening to. 😉

            Xx

          46. lickemtomorrow says:

            TS, glad the YT suggestions was a helpful one and thought you might like that 🙂

            You know I’m going to have to look up “Raise the Black Flag” now and you may also know a ‘black flag’ operation is one where you take no prisoners. Sounds deadly!

            I also noticed some of Phil Ayer’s titles correlate to thoughts/ideas HG has shared. Some which struck me were “First Flakes” (on the album “Judgement Calling”); “Rain Will Fall”, “The Narrator”, “Ivory Tower”, “Highlands”(on the album “Memory of a Distant Land”); “Loyalty”, “Striving Towards Success” (from “The Union Proclaimed album) and so on.

            I think you’re right, we can make things fit if we try hard enough. With what little we know about HG there are a million rabbit holes we could go down and I’ve already been down a few! The mystery is intriguing, but it can also be frustrating at times. I’ve been here two years and still feel there I’ve learnt very little in that time to satisfy my curiosity. In that sense, HG could be whoever we want him to be and perhaps feeding into our imagination is what also keeps us ‘hooked’. Truthseekers unite 😉

            The nex and I also shared songs as a way of communicating and that’s another hook which keeps us bound. If they know something speaks to us they have an advantage. They can play that whatever way they like. When we don’t suspect anything except good intentions then we allow the hook to sink even deeper into us. I also found plenty of songs to stick a barb into him once I had him worked out 😛 The worst of that is he would have gained negative fuel galore – especially if it was a “fuck you” song! Ah, the lessons we learn, yet I don’t regret having my say in that way. It certainly relieved me of some of the angst I was feeling at the time.

            The ‘listening’ aspect of the empath is an interesting one. We have an advantage because we can lock onto things that others don’t, as you say. We reach behind the words and into someone else’s world. We feel with them. It reminds me of a bible story where a woman touched Jesus’ cloak. In the Scripture it says “He felt the power go out of Him.” When we connect with other people or they connect with us there is an exchange that happens which draws on our empathy and makes us aware. It makes us aware of their world, their suffering, their joy. In that sense, being an empath can be draining because we make ourselves available with all our faculties. What pain’s them, pain’s us, and so on.

            Your paragraph comparing empaths to narcissists sums the dynamic up nicely. We see someone in the art of the narcissist’s mirroring that reminds us of ourselves and we therefore recognise. It is an artful con and until you know better a very easy one to fall for unfortunately. The soulmate concept comes to mind. They’re almost too perfect and in that sense a dream come true. We all desire to be known. When we do find someone who appears to know us in a way no one else does, we are very drawn to them. That’s human nature – “You get me.” It’s especially impactful for the empath who so often puts themselves out for others and can become very isolated at times in doing so. To find a similar soul who can help us replenish is a gift.

            “The hidden heartbeat of life” … That’s beautiful <3

            And it is sad, as you say, to contemplate the opposing intentions and catastrophic consequences in circumstances where one has the desire to truly know the other, while the other only has the desire to manipulate through knowing. It was never about us, but the thought that it was held us captivated.

            I'm into philosophical thinking (you may have noticed) 🙂 Trajectories are part of my bread and butter, and not uncommon for either of us in that sense xox

          47. Truthseeker6157 says:

            LET,

            Sorry this reply is late. I got distracted yesterday. I listened to Raise the Black Flag again and beneath the video there was an Assassin’s Creed compilation with the same name. I listened to that, then I ended up watching and listening for the music on all of the Assassin’s Creed trailers haha! No match. You know how the rabbit holes go. I do think the music that we know belongs to HG could be used for film / video games. Similarly Philip Ayers does sound remarkably similar and together with those KHG related song titles, I can’t discount Philip Ayers yet. The thing is, if Ayers is HG, there’s nothing on Ayers. He’s just a name. So even you could confirm the two are the same person, you don’t actually gain more information. That makes it more likely in itself!

            As you say there are so many potential rabbit holes with HG. It’s the IQ that does it for me. When you have an IQ like that and apply yourself, there is very little you couldn’t self teach or learn. I’m very envious of that aspect.

            Oh the playlist. Terrible, the narc kept me guessing, kept me chasing, raised and lowered my mood with that damn playlist of ours. I remember around the same time I was chatting online to a guy in India that I had met in game. Went by the name of Mothsmoke. Only young, but really intelligent and very in tune with people, very in tune with me. I remember asking him, “If someone sent you these songs, what would you think?” He said, “I’d think, they should stop sending me songs, man up and tell me directly what they want to say.” Haha. No ET in play there! Then when I was going to visit the narc. “Do it, you crazy bitch. You’re going to do it no matter what I tell you. So go, do what you have to do, and when it’s done, I’ll be here.” Nice guy, exceptionally funny. Could really make me laugh.

            Laughing at the “fuck you” song. Good for you. So it gave fuel, but it also gave you satisfaction, sometimes it’s worth it. I didn’t send the “fuck you” song. It was ready, I’d picked it out, but, once that was sent there was no going back so at the time of ensnarement I always held back. Post ensnarement, now, I’d never give him the satisfaction of knowing he ever meant anything at all. Two can play at plausible deniability.

            I loved the Bible story you told me. I like the idea that empaths might have been described in the Bible, even if only indirectly. That draining feeling can sometimes be a giving of a part of yourself. I just really like that it is mentioned. Xx

            I feel the same way. I have spent hours charging down rabbit holes, I still fact check and search things up now as regards HG, who he might be, what he does for a living etc. What I will say though is that I’ve enjoyed the chase. I’ve learned about all kinds of different things and I’ve found it all interesting. Sheela -na- gigs were an adventure in themselves! Haha!

            Keeping us guessing is a fine art. The anonymity aspect to HG I think is a really good thing. Yes we’ll explore, fact check, try to zoom in. We’ll chase because it’s in our nature to hunt for the truth of things, but, the reality is, we actually like enigmatic. Or, I do, I like enigmatic haha!

            Xx

          48. lickemtomorrow says:

            TS, if HG is Phil Ayers, then there’s probably many a rabbit hole I needn’t have wandered down 😛 I won’t call it wasted time because, like you, I find it a fascinating exercise in one way, but at the same time won’t overwhelm myself looking for answers that are too hard to find. The thing is, we are not meant to find them, at least if HG wants to remain anonymous. I doubt one day we’ll wake up and find a message to say “Got me!”

            Haha, imagine, all the mystery gone and who knows what the outcome of that might be … could be good or could be bad. It’s likely we prefer not to know as HG can be anything/anyone we want him to be. It’s like seeing a character from a story in your mind’s eye and then being disabused of your notion of what that character looks like when they decide who should play the part on film. We can adjust, of course, as James Bond has had many different leading men and most have been accepted by the masses because they enjoy the franchise. James Bond can be any person who embodies the character. As far as HG goes, we have a description he has given us and need to rely on that, much like a character in a story. We do have a pair of legs, so that’s something, but the rest is left to our imagination. Ooh la la 😉

            One thing I would find difficult to marry up are the various aspects that don’t seem to align … as in a musical spy? A spy with a gift for music? A musician who uses his craft as a cover to spy? I did begin to wonder when you mentioned the soundproof study which you have interpreted as a studio. I though soundproofing would be necessary for clandestine work, and various narcissistic entanglements as well. The purpose of having a coded entry would seem highly secretive … is that just the narcissist’s paranoia? What goes on behind those closed doors?

            Assassin’s Creed … I was greatly taken with the notion of that game, but I am not a gamer and so talk of games generally doesn’t mean a lot to me. I’m a bit dyslexic when it comes to controllers, so I’d inevitably lose! I will play a board game, that’s about it. My eldest daughter’s boyfriend recently acquired a turntable and bought several albums which were scores from the games that he played. Up to that point I thought it was always more about the graphics – which are fantastic in some of them – and now I realise there’s much more to it. He has educated me, but I can’t for the life of me think what game he was particularly taken with. I’ll have to find out.

            Your story about Mothsmoke made me smile 🙂 He sounds like a straight talking guy and that’s what we need sometimes. Softens the blow with “when it’s done, I’ll be here.” I’d say you have quite a few backups in the online world, both here and in gaming <3 You must have a lot of fun. I'm a lot more of the old fashioned type of girl and if I had to put myself in an era it would be the 50's. That's my style, even though I was quite radical in some ways in my youth, but I love the sophistication of those days and being waited on by men in a manner where chivalry was at a premium. Going by your account of Mothsmoke, chivalry is not dead, just different now xox

            I like your thoughts around the "fuck you!" song 🙂 You are right, of course, and as I was still entangled to a certain extent when the fallout happened, I gave as good as I got. Couldn't help myself. Now I know he would have loved that, hence the reason I am saying you are right. Don't give them what they want. They may never recover (and this comes with a wish he felt the full impact of your disinterest in the end). We are the ones that got away, the fish that broke the fisherman's line, but whaddayaknow … if he didn't already have another line in the water (like I believe mine did, maybe several) he wouldn't be long about casting his line out again to see what he could pull out of the water next. Always hungry for the Prime Aims.

            I'm glad you liked the story I shared. It's one that's stuck with me. The woman was unwell (won't go into the details), but she desired a cure and believed Jesus was the one who could cure her. There were so many people surrounding him, seeking healing, the best she could do was reach out and touch his cloak. His back was turned to her at the time, but as the story goes he felt the power go out of him and turned around asking "Who touched me?" There's much that could be drawn out of the story, but my main point was that we will experience that sense of 'draining', or something going out of us as we connect with others. They will metaphorically 'touch' us and with our empathy we will respond.

            The Sheela-na-gigs are something I must have missed along the way, but have obviously caught my attention now! I feel like we've been living at times in a parallel HG universe, but I'm not connected to all his outlets so I'm guessing that's where I could be falling down on the information front. It does leave me with a lot less rabbit holes to wander down 😉 Though, you are tempting me xox

          49. Truthseeker6157 says:

            LET,

            I laughed my way through most of that comment. My God, you too?! Dyslexic with a games controller. I’m woeful. That’s why I don’t play any games like that, just one game only on my iPad.

            I tried x box. I couldn’t do it either. I tried a racing game once and kept spinning the car. Art imitates life imitates art haha! I got confused then which direction I was driving in. Then I got so cross with it I decided to see if the game would accommodate me driving the wrong way round the track. Would I meet the other cars head on? I don’t think Xbox was designed for people like me hahaha!

            Yes, I have met some really lovely people in game and from all over the world. I like the fact that really everyone is equal in the online environment. You take as you find. No social levels or success criteria to muddy the waters. Just people letting off steam. Mothsmoke has disappeared, haven’t seen him active in any capacity since COVID. Given his location, that’s concerning.

            Yes, there are numerous rabbit holes to wander down. Like you I can only give so much to it. I agree that finding someone who doesn’t want to be found is likely an impossible task. “You got me” haha that tickled me.

            The Sheela na gig. HG has one in the entrance to Tudor Towers, just as you go through the door apparently. I looked for private sales of Sheela na gigs. Nothing registered. I’ve looked at all sorts of little asides like that. Still nothing. I’m supposed to be following a trail of set clues but I don’t like set clues. I follow what interests me.

            I wonder if the Jag will go on Autotrader? Kidding! It’ll get traded in at the dealership. HG isn’t going to sell it privately, too much hassle. Only so many car brands HG would go for there. Aston maybe? Maserati? Mercedes? Not Bentley, too old mannish. Rangey? Please no. So HG trades in the Jag in the next twelve months at a luxury car dealership. The dealership sells the jag online. There won’t be too many of that car, it’s likely the V8 version. It sounded like a V8. That’s more the way my mind works. I don’t need rabbit holes creating for me, I create them for myself!

            Agree, musical spy doesn’t sound right to me. I’ve never subscribed to spy. It doesn’t pay enough and if being prime minister would mean a pay cut then politics itself is out. Lobbyist for a multinational would be in and would place HG in political circles. If it was arms trade then it would bring in the military aspect. Logical trains of thought but essentially it’s just guesswork.

            Possibly, a soundproofed office if you needed secrecy. I doubt even Boris has a soundproofed office though. It just sounds too unrealistic. The Shieldmaiden knows what HG does professionally and she works in a similar field. I don’t think the other IPPS did know though. I don’t see how they wouldn’t question a locked office with a key pad. Even a studio is unusual to have at home without being Mick Jagger. Mick?!

            Haha, see? 12.34 and I’m thinking about sound proofed offices and their significance. I should do the sensible thing and look at sheela na gigs again.

            Xx

          50. lickemtomorrow says:

            TS, you made me laugh with your description of trying to manipulate the Xbox game and I’m surprised the console didn’t explode! I can relate to your level of frustration. I’m talking Playstation (for the most part) and the kids use the controllers for their TV’s as well … ugh!

            I paid a visit to my eldest yesterday and checked in with the boyfriend re: his musical scores from games he has played. He was very taken with a game called “The Last of Us” which apparently came up with a long awaited sequel not too long ago. He has the score from that game and another called “Gods of War” … I checked out the album collection while I was there 😛 He had about a half dozen, but can’t remember the rest.

            I like the idea of everyone being equal in the online environment. Basically it’s about the game and enjoyment around that. You don’t need to have specific credentials to join in. Worrying development when it comes to Mothsmoke and I think that’s the part I would find hard, never knowing what’s happened to someone if they disappear. It’s not unlike this place, but I try not to think about that. Very Scarlett O’Hara of me!

            That’s so interesting about the Sheela-na-gig. I did read up a little on them after you commented. I have more thoughts around that and also how they might relate to HG … reminds me of the Asylum of the Grotesque. Does it sit over the door in the centre? Is it a gargoyle or specifically what has been mentioned? It would be interesting to see that in one of HG’s Tudor Tower videos on YT. There is no real indication of HG’s ‘dark side’ in what we have seen so far. A pristine home in a pristine location, the interior full of light. Where is the dark, shadowy Tudor Towers I so long to see? Where is the coffin he lays in to sleep at night? 😛 Just kidding!

            I enjoy your rabbit holes, TS 🙂 The thoughts on HG’s car. He’s told us it’s a Jag and he also said in the past he owns a Tesla. I think he’s going to have to make up his mind on going with environmentally friendly models as it won’t be long before we are all forced to consider doing the same. Imagine the world without the smell of petrol, without Formula One racing, without a Sunday drive. Imagine a world without truckdrivers because now we’re going to have self-driving vehicles. Imagine a world where only the wealthy can afford to travel in style. I think HG should enjoy his Jaguar while he can. Better charge up the Tesla in the meantime!

            What … HG isn’t a spy? Nooooooo! He’s my Daniel Craig of the narcissistic universe 😉 It’s anybody’s guess, but I see where you’re going and it’s interesting to consider. I can’t say anything for sure and PsyOps is a consideration from my POV. Where SM figures into all of this is a mystery, but attaining an appliance that fits in with HG’s purposes, and with him being a psychopath as well, he will use her and that relationship for his own gain – nothing more, nothing less. If that means it increases his effectiveness in whatever field he works in then SM will have served her purpose. Note: I’m being as unsentimental as I possibly can here, which is the only way I see SM fitting into HG’s life. PsyOps could place you in numerous situations or professions I imagine, so I’m not discounting anything right now. Check out “Ghosts in the Machine” on YT. Scary stuff.

            I think there might be a new password to KHG forum, so I better check with HG. There are too many forums to comment on sometimes xox

          51. Truthseeker6157 says:

            LET,

            Hopefully I didn’t miss a reply button lower and this ends up in the right place!

            Haha! If anything is going to bring out my narcissistic traits so that I’m hopping mad, forget the narcissist, just hand me the Xbox controller! Or PlayStation, either works!

            You are exactly right on the downside of the game. I’ve had a couple of people leave the team just due to family stuff, job move etc. One guy in particular left and I was really upset. I’d spoken to him for years. He came back six months later haha! Now, he plays spasmodically and when things get too busy for him, then he warns me he’s going for a few months and will be back. “Red text incoming” (when someone leaves it shows in red text.) so yes, I get attached to some long term players and I am very sad when they go. I know so much about them all, that’s the issue I think. I’m a gift for the online narc aren’t I really?

            Haha, go you with the music trail! Halo is another big game, I’ll look that up. I wonder if there is a dungeons and dragons equivalent?

            I know, you imagine HG as Daniel. He might be a spy, I’m just a horrible cynic! Bad TS ! Interrogator maybe rather than spy? That would be more ad hoc in terms of work commitment. I read The Wisdom of Psychopaths a while ago. I liked it, it kind of de mystified the whole thing. There was a story in the book about a psychopath under interrogation training. They had put him through all sorts of unpleasant things, sleep deprivation, noise, lack of food, solitary confinement etc. In the late stages, they had him in a room in the dark tied up on the floor with a hood over his head. Various interrogators had tried to break him. Then an interrogator went in, pulled off the hood and yelled in his face full volume. The psychopath raised his head and whispered, “You should cut down on the garlic”. It took the interrogator by surprise and he laughed automatically, just for a second. The psychopath lifted his head to beckon him in and whispered, “You lose.”

            I get that. It’s absolute focus, coupled with lack of fear and eyes only on the objective. Lack of fear I think is also linked to this hyper focus. There’s no mental space left to register any fear.

            The Sheela na gig. Again, I’m not sure where I saw this on the blog. It might actually have been mentioned in an old article rather than a comment. I think the Sheela was on a church that was being demolished / possibly renovated. HG got it via that route. I visualise it more on a table, displayed more as a stone statue than above a doorway. That’s how I’ve remembered it. Maybe HG will correct me if I haven’t remembered accurately. HG likes it because it’s one of the first things guests notice as they enter Tudor Towers, it’s overtly sexual ( so I assume there’s a bit of a shock factor / elephant in the room idea going on) and it’s a conversation starter. That’s how I’ve remembered it.

            I see what you mean about the asylum of the grotesque. Maybe HG has a collection of different types of Sheela na gigs and gargoyles and has given each of them a name of a former IPPS! Haha! I can see HG doing that actually, there’s a mischief about that.

            I agree with you that it does appear The Shieldmaiden works in a field whereby the lack of communication about work is standard practice. SM would also need to be useful to HG long term. Plenty of empaths provide fuel, but the Ultra will be looking for whopping residual benefits to boot. SM is a high earner. Lobbyist would work for male or female, plus pooling of contacts would be useful. Mergers and acquisitions would involve a confidentiality aspect, plus travel, plus ‘corporate entertaining’ etc. Shieldmaiden might be the Lloyds or the PwC to HG’s United Distillers or Glock.Ges.m.b.H. Shieldmaiden was also looking at getting her friend’s narc boyfriend a job though. Can’t see that guy in PwC. Actually, maybe I can haha!

            The PsyOps is interesting. I watched a short clip on YouTube, I’ll go back and search for more. That’s an interesting line of thought LET 🙂

            I do enjoy our musings!

            Xx

          52. lickemtomorrow says:

            TS, those controllers would do it for me, too. I look on in fascination as the kids manipulate the controls while watching the screen as they play. Very rarely do I ask them to explain. It’s like they’re born with the skills these days. I’m totally out of my league!

            The online world as you describe it with your gaming, and as we find it here, is difficult in the sense our empathy reaches across all mediums. We are not just empathic in person, it’s built into us and we are empathic wherever we find ourselves connecting with people. And that’s the thing, we do connect. We sense moods, feelings, sorrows, joys, pleasures, concerns, and they all impact us for better or worse. Then, sometimes, someone we connected with journeys on (in one way or another) and we can’t help but feel their loss. The landscape has changed. We need to adjust. I think there’s a natural resistance in us to do that sometimes. It’s worse when you don’t know the circumstances and can only hope all is well. Our sentimentality (or emotional thinking) definitely makes us targets for the online predator.

            I don’t think I’ve heard of “The Wisdom of Psychopaths”, but I’ll look it up. The story you tell is very interesting, and sounds very ‘HG like’ as well. I’ve been watching a series on Netflix called “Taboo” and decided during the final episode that the main character – James Delaney (played by Tom Hardy) – is a psychopath. The scene you describe is a lot like a scene in the final episodes where ultimately he can’t be intimidated and continues to concoct his plan of revenge. He literally operates like an automaton in terms of his lack of feeling towards others and also his ability to endure in extreme circumstances. He is driven and keeps moving forward to the end he has in mind. Lots of people die along the way!

            I do believe the lack of fear is inherent in Psychopathy, so they will never have experienced fear as an emotion or a preventative measure when it comes to danger. This can also leave them with the inability to recognise fear in others, and therefore not be moved by the expression of fear which is meaningless to them.

            Thanks for the follow up on the Sheela-na-gig 🙂 I can see HG using that for shock value and what a way to welcome guests into your home … orgy anyone? Ha!

            Yes, I could also see gargoyles getting the names of former IPPS’s 😛

            Definitely residual benefits when it comes to SM, and you’ve got some interesting ideas going on there, TS. I think I fall at the first hurdle when I consider her, in the sense I cannot fathom using someone in the way HG uses people. It’s like my mind is blocked from any further consideration because I can’t see anything positive in it, although it seems the benefits from relationship can work both ways. But, it is transactional, and I am not. I can’t contemplate it because it is incomprehensible to me.

            PsyOps means you can have a foot in more than one world, which it seems HG does.

            Yes, I enjoy our musings, too <3 xox

          53. Gypsy Heart says:

            TS & LET,

            I enjoyed your musings on who HG might be. I think he is spiderman. I saw a short clip of spiderman twerking on a stop light, turning and waving at everybody. Then he turned back and emphatically started slapping his own ass. For some reason that reminded me of spanked in the knowledge vault.

            HG, was that you twerking on the stoplight?

          54. HG Tudor says:

            No,but your rear light got smashed whilst you were salivating over Spidey!

          55. Truthseeker6157 says:

            Gypsy,

            Oh you did make me laugh there. That just came out of nowhere! 😂

            ( Going to search that up on YouTube)

            Xx

          56. Gypsy Heart says:

            TS,

            Enjoy 😍😍😍

          57. Gypsy Heart says:

            HG,

            Actually it was my front passenger light. The accident was completely my fault. As I was coming up to the stop light I rearended the car in front of me. My front bumper was even dragging. Everyone was so busy watching spidey that nobody even offered to help as I was ripping my front bumper off and shoving it into the back seat of my car. That side thingy along the driver’s side even came off.

            When I explained what had happened to my insurance agent and showed her the spidey clip the only comments she made was nice ass, I completely understand. We will get right on that. Now who is this HG fellow that you think is spiderman?

            HG, can I borrow one of your flash cars? I like to drive fast.

          58. Truthseeker6157 says:

            LET,

            Thank you for your comment. You’ve got me thinking in a different way about my online behaviour. I have considered it as a bit odd that I get attached to the people I speak to online but your comment does make perfect sense. The empathy will stretch across those boundaries. Similar to feeling saddened by events we watch in the news etc. I think I’m more exposed to it in some ways because I’m nocturnal. I like the night time hours, and someone is always awake somewhere so I end up chatting across time zones. The attachment though, I see your point, I’m not really going to distinguish too much between someone I know in my real life and someone I’ve chatted to for years online.

            The interesting thing I think is that I am myself online. I don’t create a different backstory or persona. My gaming character is an exaggeration of me, probably closer to me after a few drinks which likely means a slight erosion of empathy. I actually quite enjoy that character but it certainly isn’t an invention.

            I do find it quite strange how people can totally reinvent themselves online. What’s the point? Then I think about the narcissist and realise that the construct operates in a similar way. So again I have to ask, what’s the point? You commented on the other thread that the narcissist cheats at life. I agree, they do. The Prime Aims themselves aren’t tangible for the most part, they exist in the mind of the narcissist.

            I can understand the dislike of considering how SM fits. I feel concern for SM for obvious reasons. I’m not a love devotee so can consider a more transactional arrangement and can see how both might benefit from that. I’m not sure how I managed to get love devotee as part of my empathic make up at all. It is my weakest empathic trait. I believe in true love because I can point to one couple where that exists but I also believe that it’s incredibly rare and as society adopts a more narcissistic approach, it’s becoming even more rare. As society evolves or deteriorates – depending on which way you look at it – the romanticised ideal of ‘The One’ or the partner for life is becoming obsolete. People will look for alternatives. Take kids out of the equation and even as an empath I can see the advantages of a series of shorter term more transactional relationships. I think that’s a shame (that might be the love devotee part) but I also think that is soon to become the norm. Bloody hell, we’re going to die out at this rate! Let me pour myself another glass of wine and I’ll go at that problem again! Haha!

            Xx

          59. lickemtomorrow says:

            TS, can totally relate to your perspective on the online scenario and how it becomes meaningful to us – which is also what makes us prime targets. If you think about the ‘twilight zone’ you inhabit when interacting online, I’d say it’s likely one of the most vulnerable periods of your day. You’re beginning to relax, taking a breath, preparing to enjoy life a little and drawing down the blinds on the responsibilities of parenting amongst other things. It’s ‘you’ time, and time where you let your hair down a little to engage with others. I can’t remember if you met your online narc in the context of the gaming world and then carried on from there. Either way, we don’t switch off our empathy no matter what time we are operating during the day or what circumstances. Our narcissistic traits can certainly come to the fore at times, but our empathy is always ‘online’ (excuse the pun).

            I believe you are the same in the real world, or offline, as you are online, which makes our conversations very easy and I feel what I am getting is genuine or authentic. No doubt the last narc picked that up about you and took full advantage of it. Our honest and empathic natures are like a beacon to them. On the other hand, he was able to remain much more hidden while he toyed with your heart. That’s the advantage the narc has online.

            I like the notion of giving some leeway to your more narcy traits at times when gaming, and at different times I will do the same. Often it’s when I find something provocative amusing and I recognise my rebellious nature in those moments. I’d call that narcy and I relish it. Showing the middle finger is not beyond the empath at times. It’s probably the place I went at the end of my last relationship with the narc.

            The point for the narcissist’s reinvention is to acquire the Prime Aims. It matters not how they do it, who they affect, as long as they receive what they require. The level of egocentrism is beyond us as empaths, making it very hard to understand. At the same time, I can see how it serves their purposes and it’s also much easier to see once we are out of it. In the middle of it we have already accepted the version of who they are that was presented to us and are blind to the possibility they could be merely playing a part, which for them is an art.

            Feel free to pour me a glass of wine as well, TS 😉 Evolving or deteriorating is the question and as empaths we’re up against it either way. I get your point that society has become more cynical in many ways as we see divorce skyrocketing and marriage taking a backseat to living together arrangements. That’s an indication that people see these relationships as more temporary, or flexible. I can’t recall my percentage of ‘love devotee’ trait (will need to look it up), but in my heart I believe that it’s possible to form relationships for a lifetime and that they can be truly empathic in nature (give and take, ability to persevere, desire to forgive, etc.). Of course, we are not going to get those relationships with narcissists, and as empaths being vulnerable to ensnarement by narcissists can make the world look very cynical at times.

            Not one of my long time friends is divorced. That tells me they had the ability to choose wisely – even though I consider them all empathic – and also had a background that potentially set them up for more rewarding relationships. It’s a fact their children will have benefited from the stability of those relationships as well. I wish I could have done the same for mine. While I am cynical about narcissists, I’m not cynical about the possibility for non-narcs, though their worlds can be influenced by the narcissist as well. I guess the only answer is awareness.

            “Bloody hell, we’re going to die out at this rate!”

            That made me smile 🙂 Hold the fort, TS <3 xox

          60. Truthseeker6157 says:

            Hang on a sec. I missed something here. I think my brain automatically blocked it out due to the shock.

            HG has a Tesla? Are you sure? Tesla? HG? Nooooooooooo!!!!!

            I can’t, I just can’t. That’s it. Game Over. Illusions shattered. A Tesla! That meek sound of escaping air as it slowly pulls up?! I don’t care if it’s just for London driving. I don’t care!!! Pay the charge! Pay it and have done!

            I feel light headed. I do, I feel nauseous. That’s even worse than a Rangey.

            *Backs away slowly, hands over ears*

            Please say it isn’t so…..

            Xx

          61. HG Tudor says:

            No I don’t have a Tesla.

          62. lickemtomorrow says:

            If I could find my “wayback machine” I would seek out that impression.

            Pretty sure it was black as well. Like your heart.

          63. lickemtomorrow says:

            TS, I thought HG was being very environmentally conscious when mentioning his Tesla. And very progressive. Personally I’d prefer the Jaguar and it seems your illusions on this one needn’t be shattered after all.

            It isn’t so, according to HG 😉

          64. Truthseeker6157 says:

            I think that might be the sexiest thing you have ever said to me.

          65. NarcAngel says:

            LET
            Emotional Thinking Blinds – Flies on the Windscreen July 10 2019.

          66. lickemtomorrow says:

            NA, Bingo!

            Thank you.

            No more second guessing for me.

            (Going to look up Tesla Girls now)

          67. HG Tudor says:

            You’ll find they’re testing out theories and heaven knows their recipes.

          68. lickemtomorrow says:

            I had to laugh at the initial part of a comment someone posted online under the lyrics of this song:

            “That narcissist capitalism whore Elon Musk comes to mind (sic) whenever I hear this now and he *almost* ruined this song for me. Almost.”

          69. njfilly says:

            TS:

            RE: HG and Tesla.

            That was fun. I enjoyed reading that. Even though I wasn’t involved in it I feel a bit dirty now.

            I’m not a big fan of Tesla’s but what I find intolerable is when I see a man driving a motorcycle wearing a face mask due to COVID. I literally want to run his bitch ass off the road, back over his face continuously, then drive away smiling about what I just accomplished. Luckily I have self control so this would never happen, but that is complete honesty about how I feel.

            Just sharing….

          70. lickemtomorrow says:

            Just laughing, njfilly 🙂

            That was hilarious to read.

            Unlike you, I don’t feel ‘dirty’ at all.

            Must be my dark side.

            Thanks for sharing!

          71. Truthseeker6157 says:

            NJ Filly,

            Yep, we’re definitely on the same wavelength Haha!

            (Still laughing at that)

            Xx

          72. Trutthseeker6157 says:

            LET,

            Yes, definitely, I’m far more vulnerable in those twilight hours than at any other time. You’re right, during the day, it’s about everyone else, but those hours are for me, to decompress, relax and sometimes also to turn inwards.

            I was recruiting for the game in a global chat forum when I met the online narc. Recruiting is a pain, there are some real bullies in the forums, guys with big accounts picking on the small accounts. Ridiculous. I was in full flight, on full bully takedown when the online narc met me. I couldn’t have shown my Saviour traits more effectively if I had tried. Bully dispatched and we began chatting, he came into my team to give me his Kik and I saw no harm in chatting to him. Narcissist wasn’t a term I knew anything about.

            Most of my friends are divorced or separated. The ones who aren’t still don’t have relationships that I would envy. Just one couple, actually two that I would honestly say were made for each other. So I can confirm it is possible. Love can and does conquer all sometimes. Awareness is a good start. 😊

            I think the ideal is that parents stay together. It’s what we all envisage when we decide to have kids. We enter relationships honestly and take the decision to have kids with the best of intentions. I don’t believe any empath would knowingly have children with a narcissist if they knew what that meant long term. We can only do our best with the information we have when we have it. I think you did the very best you could with the hands you were dealt and that has to be enough. Empaths would do anything for their kids, there’s no doubt in my mind that yours received all the love they could ever need just from you. I can understand the regret that things weren’t as you had planned for your children, but similarly, from what I know of you, you couldn’t have tried harder or done better by them. Girl did good 😘

            Xx

          73. lickemtomorrow says:

            TS, I can see how the narc spotted you in that scenario, your telltale empathic beacon shining brightly. The predators are watching. I wonder how long he was watching you, or do you think that’s the first time he saw you? Either way, you obviously stood out to him.

            Sadly, narcissism wasn’t a term either of us were aware of at the beginning of our last entanglements. We’ve come a long way since then <3.

            In many ways I'm not surprised, though of course saddened, to hear of your friends whose long term committed relationships did not work out. It's a sign of the times, though I've always said my parents should have divorced years earlier to save us all the heartache. I can see the 'for' and 'against' of the situation, and the truth is there was nothing stopping them putting an end to a bad relationship, which is what I determined to do with my marriage.

            None of us go into it expecting it not to work out, and I think my friends were fortunate in spite of the challenges they individually faced. Ultimately, there is a choice to persevere, but circumstances also have to be right for that to happen. In the case of narcissists, the circumstances will never be right. I don't think any of my friends became Stepford wives due to the fact none of them married narcissists. They dodged a bullet that's for sure.

            I think we've all done our best with the hand we've been dealt, TS, and as individuals each of our situations is unique. I appreciate and take heart in the longevity of my friend's marriages, but felt very isolated in a sense when my own broke down. They were only ever supportive, even from a distance, but I had to find new friends who knew what it was to be in the same situation as me as well. There is something very comforting about knowing you are not alone, and the opportunity to give and receive support in the circumstances as well.

            I've no doubt you have done and are doing the best for your own children and family, too. We can only work with what we've got and our resources can vary. I think our children know our hearts and that is the most important thing for me.

            We both did good <3 xox

          74. Truthseeker6157 says:

            LET,

            I can see why you would ask that, no the narc couldn’t have been watching me long term, only that one evening. Global chat was a huge space, if you went offline and back into global chat you would be in a completely different place with different people. In some ways that helped his case with trying to get to me privately. If either of us had lost connection on the iPad we would never have found each other again. I wouldn’t ordinarily switch to private conversation on Kik if I didn’t need to. Essentially meeting him was sheer chance, but from what I understand from Sitting Target, I would have stuck out like a sore thumb and revealed many empathic markers during that very first interaction.

            I am most definitely influenced by statistics as far as the likelihood of people finding their ideal partners goes. That said, the odds of falling pregnant seem incredibly remote too and the human race doesn’t appear to be struggling on the procreation front!

            I don’t envy my kids entering the dating game that’s for sure. My son assumes he will get married one day, have kids etc. My daughter is less certain. My daughter has just recently been ensnared. Online, text and video chat, talking through the night, disappearances, reappearances a few months later as if nothing happened. Monopolisation of time, haughty over confident behaviours. Controlling behaviours in terms of a requirement to respond, even when asleep. A requirement to show what she was wearing when going out to meet friends. He lives roughly an hour away.

            The way she described how she felt was like like listening to myself. She was describing the addiction. The real high of the text message ping, the idea that he was entirely unlike all the other boys she knew, sweet, supportive, complimentary to begin with, it was just awful to listen to her. I asked questions, provided examples, estimated what he would do and had done already. She listened, she couldn’t help but be convinced. He is a narc, not the slightest shadow of doubt in my mind and I really couldn’t care less that he is technically too young to be classified as a narc, he is one. LOCE in play also.

            Thankfully, I am well taught, have all the knowledge I need to guide and support. I will be eternally grateful to HG for that. She is going through her first GOSO, her No Contact is water tight, she is untouchable, unless she caves in of course. So far so good. She understands now what he is and refuses to be dinner ( her words) but she has taken damage. Secretly the fact that she understands he would likely reappear in a few weeks I think is keeping her going. She understands that a reappearance is nothing to do with any affection, she understands the concept of fuel and the hoover. Like many of us, secretly she wants the hoover. She wants answers, she wants him to want her.

            The only good things to come from it is that firstly she spoke to me about it, secondly she is now aware, and now that she is, she is on her way to protecting herself. Had he been a boyfriend who went to her school for example, she would have come off far worse. He asked for nudes, we had already discussed the nudes phenomenon so she was wise to that fortunately. Their communication lasted a little over 15 months on and off. She’s 14 he is 15. If I ever catch him, he might not reach 16.

            Xx

          75. lickemtomorrow says:

            TS, he really did hook you very quickly, and probably knew he only had that one chance to do it. It’s amazing what can be built on a chance encounter, but we see how HG manufactures those kinds of opportunities in his articles for the purposes of acquiring the Prime Aims. You obviously had very little information to go on before engaging with him in a more private space. Something about him must have stood out to you as well.

            Now to the devastating matter of your daughter and her situation, though thankfully you both appear to have it in hand for now. Your description of the scenario, including her desire for that hoover, align perfectly with the narc/empath dynamic. God love her. She is so young and he is already asking for nudes? I guess that’s not so unusual these days, but still I’m shocked! It sounds like you’ve handled it incredibly well by not freaking out and being able to have a very mature discussion with her.

            Another online entrapment, it’s so easy for them to do what they do. And I think regardless of his age he has all the indications of being a predator going forward. You’ve highlighted all the red flags and with any luck at that age he will move on quickly and not bother her again as, unfortunately, he will find plenty of other fish in the online sea. Her heart will hurt though, and that’s what hurts us as parent’s, too. It’s a fact our parent’s never needed to deal with the same level of concerns about us, though we still managed at times to get out from underneath their watchful eyes and take chances we probably shouldn’t have. As parent’s ourselves now, we want so much to keep them close and away from harm. I know you’ll be doing your best to keep her safe <3

            The teenage years have to be the most wrought, combining budding adult bodies with hormones coursing through them, and both the desire and confusion that creates. I think you're right that the distance between them might help on this one. On the other hand, if he was a local boy you could get your hands on it's obvious he might live to regret it!

            I truly hope you both can navigate this difficult experience and time in her life. She's lucky to have you, and with any luck she will have adopted some of your healthy narcissistic traits as well as your empathic ones. That will stand her in good stead, especially knowing that you have her back as well xox

          76. Truthseeker6157 says:

            LET,

            You’re right, he did stand out to me in the first meeting. Part of that was timing. I was very isolated at that point, had just moved to another state, no friends yet and I was becoming homesick. He felt like home.

            It’s actually uncanny, some of the things my daughter has told me about how she feels. How he was when they first started communicating. It made me realise how similar we actually are.

            I think it would turn your stomach if you knew what goes on and at what age. Today’s 14 is our 17, that’s probably the best way to describe it. Anything you were doing at 17, they’re doing it at 14. Or, some are doing it. My daughter’s friend sent nudes to her boyfriend, when they split he shared the nudes with his friends. This is why my daughter and I had the conversation about nudes a while ago. Other girls are basically being used by boys for sexual favours. Fortunately my daughter’s friends aren’t involved in that. It necessitates the conversation though. Conversations I didn’t think I would need to have yet.

            I really don’t envy them, I think kids have it far tougher than we did. So much more to deal with emotionally and at a far younger age.

            Xx

          77. lickemtomorrow says:

            TS, that’s so interesting to get some further insight into the circumstances of your last entanglement at the time it took place. It goes to show your vulnerability at the time, and that’s something worth being aware of in order to avoid the next ensnarement. I was also extremely vulnerable at the time my last ensnarement occurred so I can completely understand. How they smell that blood in the water is intriguing. No doubt some have a finely tuned radar and we’ve given off signals of our own, even unwittingly. I can imagine being homesick and finding someone who felt like home would have been a real drawcard. Elements like those make the sense of betrayal even worse. We think we’ve found something to hang our hat on and it turns out to be a cruel joke, an illusion, played on us for the benefit of someone else’s ego.

            Imagine at our age and stage in life being caught on the prongs of the devil’s pitchfork and then imagine someone your daughter’s age … it almost doesn’t bear thinking about the damage that could be done. To lose their innocence at earlier and earlier ages due to their exposure … I can’t imagine being cynical at their age, but where else can it lead?

            We all have to go through the love found and lost phases, the teenage crushes, the heartache of moving on, but we know for a fact narcissistic relationships are different in that sense. Much easier to fall into, much harder to move on from, a lasting legacy of pain if we aren’t aware of what narcissism is or what we have become entangled with.

            Your daughter is fortunate to have you and also a level of maturity you mention which some of us may not have had at the same age. The lack of social media was definitely a protective factor in terms of exposure, no mobile phones, internet, etc. I don’t envy them either. They’re being forced to grow up much too quickly and with less capacity for resilience due to their age.

            I was able to keep mine away from mobile phones until they reached secondary school level, but the vastness of the internet has increased so much again since then in terms of options for people to link up via various sources. It’s second nature to them to interact this way, though I think mine have matured past the point now where they feel the necessity to be ‘overconnected’. I think they know themselves better now, and place themselves in ways that suit them as opposed to feeling the need to cave to peer pressure. That’s probably a big part of it, too. The more independent you are able to raise them, the less likely they are to fall into that trap. For the most part, though, all kids want to fit in and it’s good to know your daughter has friends who seem to be on the more sensible or mature side as well. The friendships they form have a big influence.

            Hopefully she will continue to confide <3 xox

      2. Gypsy Heart says:

        HG,

        Has any of your girlfriends got the pleasure of watching you twerking to one of your favorite tunes?

        1. HG Tudor says:

          I do not twerk. I am not 11 years old.

          1. njfilly says:

            Thank you, God, because I would lose all respect for you if you did.

          2. Gypsy Heart says:

            Glad to hear it HG, I was being sarcastic.

        2. njfilly says:

          In what way would that be a “pleasure”? It would be a disgrace.

          Twerking is not dancing. It is the equivalent of me vomiting and calling it singing.

          1. Witch says:

            @njfilly

            I have to disagree sometimes twerking is a work of art
            Watch Anitta do it

          2. njfilly says:

            Oh, god no. I would never see it as an art form, and I don’t know who Anitta is and I don’t want to know.

            I once accidentally (I think on TV) came upon the Twerking Championships, or the National Twerking Competitions, or the Degradations Delights, or something similar. I was shocked that this was a “thing”, so I watched briefly to see what it was about. I couldn’t stomach it. It was sickening.

            I believe twerking to be one of the many ways society is degraded, by design, and the masses are fooled into accepting it as normal, and believing it has artistic value when in reality, it should be shameful to both the people watching and the people participating. I believe we have the emotion of shame for a reason, and this would be it.

            I have decided I am going to be completely honest about my opinions on matters from now on, without holding back. (not that I held back much before anyway).

            I understand you disagree and you are entitled to your opinion.

          3. Witch says:

            @njiffy

            Twerking competitions is an over kill
            But when it’s incorporated into the dance on the beat it looks amazing.. I mean when Rihanna dances 😍
            It’s like pole dancing for me – yes it’s sexual but some of the tricks are just like WOW!

          4. Gypsy Heart says:

            First of all njfilly, I owe you an apology. I was highly emotional in my response to you due to other circumstances. Your comment was just the straw that broke the camels back, so to speak. I stand strong in my convictions, but may not have responded appropriately. I do feel a sense of shame in that which is internal (not external) and is appropriate for me.

            Witch, I would like to say I meant no disrespect to you. If watching something in the moment involving twerking is entertaining to you, than I say by all means enjoy it. And I also think let the kids have their fun (and the adults who are experiencing that inner child).

            I have had to step away from commenting due to my heightened emotional state, but have remained in deep self reflection.

            After no sleep for a day, a night, and another day with pure adrenaline flowing through me and the feeling that I get that my body (every cell within my being) is vibrating with an excruciating intensity, I was finally able to get a good nights sleep. The adrenaline has shut down and I am feeling more rational.

            I have recently started trauma therapy and am exploring the issues surrounding my Complex PTSD and what that entails, especially surrounding my interpersonal relationships, which I struggle with. I had no idea for the longest time that I had CPTSD. I believe that many of the issues surrounding this had subsided thankfully when I was focused on family, raising a child and emmersed within my career.

            That being said, I then experienced another layer of trauma due to a natural disaster. I had been working as a nurse in trauma and critical care. Late one afternoon a mile rainwrapped EF5 tornado ripped through the heart of our little town taking out our hospital and all of our emergency response facilities. My adrenaline was coursing through me for hours in the aftermath as a first responder triaging and dragging the injured to safety (we were told the hospital could be on fire, explode, or collapse during that time).

            As a result my CPTSD was reawakened I believe. My trigger threshold is much lower now and my adrenalin will “turn on” and not shut off for days sometimes weeks at a time. Some of the effects of this mean that emotional regulation can be difficult for me and is by no means a reflection on anyone else because of trigger responses. My therapist and I will be utilizing CBT therapy. Some of my goals will be working on establishing my boundaries with people and working on emotional regulation. I think that maybe interacing on this site may help me with my goals.

            I am actually thankful for how this has played out in the comments between njfilly, witch, and me (as uncomfortable as it has been for me). It has aided in my self reflection in areas that I struggle. It highlights the individuality of the people we interact with and demonstrates a sense of self in peoples belief systems and awakens a curiosity in me of how these belief systems are right for this particular person and works for them. I would also feel validated by people respecting how my belief systems have formed and work for me. I would never want to enforce these core values on anyone because they tend to be offbeat and will not work for many, but they work for me and reingorce my sense of self identity which I was never allowed in child hood. In trying to understand each others individually, even when things become heated, I hope we can all count to 10, express that we respect that but may not agree with it in a personal context. Hopefully that can help us all with conflict resolution.

            In conclusion I am very sorry njfilly. What I said to you was very hypocritical and shaming. The very thing that I was trying to stand up against. I was also passive aggressive in many statements. I called you a coward in a passive aggressive way in front of the whole forum. More hypocrisy on my part. It was very shaming and demoralizing and you should not have been treated that way due to my pride.

            I am very sorry njfilly

        3. Gypsy Heart says:

          I would like to clarify the context of this comment(spur of the moment, little joke in passing) from my perspective since it seems to be a matter of debate among some. I do enjoy a good spirited debate. My now grown daughter was a member of the debate team in high school. As one of the participating parents evaluating these debates, I was quite impressed with many of the bright, young students participating from many highschools.

          I would like to share a bit of my story for the purpose of understanding my perspective. I have been following HG for quite some time. There have been times that I haven’t been able to spend as much time here as I would like, especially when I was ensnared by the dangerous psychopath that I have recently escaped and am still trying to protect myself from.

          Most of the time I prefer to stand on the sidelines (as I usually tend to do in many situations) and read, absorb the material, and apply others perspectives to my situations. After observing, becoming more comfortable I will dip my toe in and begin to participate, as I am beginning to do now.

          The twerking comment was meant to accompany the spiderman comment farther up the thread. About a month ago now I experienced a severe breakdown at work after having intense, vivid flashbacks of my early childhood due to complex PTSD. I haven’t went back to work yet. I am in near complete isolation and this blog site has been my saving grace. People aren’t meant to live in isolation. I feel comfortable coming here for information and support due to us all having similar experiences. Here I don’t have to worry about pity, judgment, pure shock/horror when relating my experiences….or shame.

          I do admit humor is not my strong point. I am very introspective and I believe this is due to being raised by a psychopath. I recently read “Game for a Laugh “. I can relate to HG describing his childhood in this article. Humor was no laughing matter in my childhood either.

          I tend to have a very dry, sarcastic sense of humor that not many get. There was one woman whom I was close to. She was the only one who truly got my sense of humor. My sense of humor comes across better in person. I tend to deliver it in a very even tone with a straight face. It would send her into fits of laughter. She would say “little sis how can you deliver that with such a straight face”; then we would both laugh. I’m more used to hearing crickets and then laugh at myself, thinking well that one didn’t land, better luck next time. I prefer to stand on the sidelines and enjoy humor from those that are more witty.

          I was feeling more like myself and more playful that day for the first time in quite a while, so decided to dip my toe in or put my foot in my mouth (however you want to look at it.(there’s that sarcasm again, since I have to explain it.)) I am not a big fan of twerking myself. For one thing, I am a much older woman and view this as something the kids are doing these days (a fad).

          As for shame. Many of us have felt it and felt it deeply. I think that it is a very personal thing. I believe for myself there are appropriate times to feel shame, such as when one has done or said something that comes across as hurtful or damaging to another. I also believe there are times when shme is inappropriate, such as shaming that is directed toward others. No one should have to put up with that. Especially when so ma y of us have experienced our entire childhood as being shamed.

          I have also noticed many people touting their opinions as I am just being real or honest in my opinions, when really this is just a passive aggressive way of shaming. I see prefacing this in such a way as cowardly and I believe there is shame in that. That statement has always been a dead giveaway for me.

          Thank you for your comments Witch and NJFilly. It has given me a lot to think about.

          Crickets anyone?

          1. Contagious says:

            You are not alone. Hugs!

          2. Gypsy Heart says:

            Contagious,

            Thank you dear one. That means a lot to me as I am “a hot mess” and feeling that way.

          3. njfilly says:

            Hi Gypsy Heart:

            Do you really think HG’s girlfriends would find it pleasurable to watch him twerk? Do you really think he would twerk? Do you find it pleasurable? I don’t like twerking. I think it is degrading to the women who participate, and I don’t want to watch it.**

            **I’m not being sarcastic here. This is what we called, as children, a “do over”. This is my “do over”. This is how I should have responded to your comment, rather than the way I did. There is honesty, and there is bluntness, and there is rudeness. I know there is a fine line between these but I seriously do not know where that line is. I know I cross it many times because of this.

            If I was rude to you, I apologize. That was not my intent. I was, admittedly, triggered by your comment. I hate twerking with a visceral passion in case I did not make that clear. I can’t stop myself from expressing that, nor will I try. My comment was not meat to be an attack on you, it was an attack on twerking.

            I think twerking is mainly a female activity, but I could be wrong. The thought of HG Tudor twerking angered me for reasons I don’t completely understand. I do think it is disgraceful behavior, and I will not back down on my opinion of that. I know he engages in other behaviors that are disgraceful, and some that I am not even aware of but HG Tudor twerking-no. I can’t accept that. It burns me brain even thinking about it. Coincidentally there was a conversation on another thread where Truthseeker comedically spoke about how her view of HG Tudor would be shattered if she knew he drove a Tesla, and she didn’t want to accept it if he did (or something similar), but she expressed herself in a comical way and got her point across. It was very funny.

            The reason I made the statement “I am just being honest” is due to another conversation on another thread where we were discussing our conversation styles and I admitted that I am often blunt. I stated that I sometimes try to soften what I say but often my message gets diluted to the point where the meaning is lost, so it is not worthwhile.

            Do you honestly think my comment to witch was passive aggressive? I don’t. I couldn’t have been more blunt and honest if I tried. If anything it was assertively aggressive. You are aware that sarcasm is a form of passive aggression, correct? You state that is your style of humor. Your very first comment, that I misunderstood as your true feelings, was passive aggressive.

            I didn’t have to passive aggressively try to shame as I stated outwardly that it is shameful to the people who participate and watch, but I was speaking about the twerking competition. When I watched that twerking competition, I felt shame. Shame for these poor women, shame for my country, shame for the future of society and how it will degrade even further in the slow drip way that it does, particularly because people fear speaking out against it. You can disagree with any of my statements. That is not a problem for me.

            I don’t have a problem with passive aggression and I don’t understand why it is often brought up. In my opinion it is just one of many conversation styles used by many people intermittently. Including you and I. It becomes a problem when it is the only way, or main way a person communicates, such as when dealing with a MRN. Then the other party is left to constantly try to read between the lines, decipher hidden meanings, and read the sentence backwards, etc. in order to try and figure out what is really being said. That is exhausting. Particularly in the midst of an abusive relationship. Passive aggression sometimes is warranted and it has it’s place. Sometimes it allows you to really get your point across. Sometimes it helps you to be heard by the hard of hearing. I use sarcasm often, which as I stated is a form of passive aggressive communication. I have no problem with using it or having it used on me occasionally.

            I knew using the dreaded “S” word (shame) would be viewed as inappropriate to some, but I don’t care. I believe it is entirely appropriate in this circumstance and I stand by that comment. Shame is a normal human emotion that is meant to serve as a guideline to our own behaviors to keep us in line with our true values. Yes, like love and anger, it can be corrupted and become toxic. That doesn’t negate the true nature, reason, and necessity for the emotion. I believe these women who twerk are numbed to their own emotions, particularly shame. If I had felt my own shame during my youth it would have kept me from acting contrary to who I really am, and from doing many things that I should have viewed as shameful, but I did not. Well, maybe intermittently I did, but I used those behaviors to soothe my pain so I ignored the shame to find some relief. If I had felt my own healthy shame then I would be better off now because of it. I believe we have been conditioned to believe that shame is always bad, when it is not.

            I was like one of those feral children. Like a feral cat. Given little support or guidance, wandering the streets at a young age. Trying to learn about life by experiencing it. Molested by a neighbor before the age of 11, statutorily raped by men in my teens, doing drugs beginning at the age of 13, having sex for money in my twenties, picking up men in bars and bringing them home to have sex with them on every Friday and Saturday night when I was not in a committed relationship, smoking pot daily from about 1988 – 2018, as well as other drugs I did often. Just so you know where I am coming from. The only thing that saved me in my childhood and provided some stability and love in my life was my involvement with an animal rescue group, and the fact I was very musical and played the fife, the flute, and the piccolo while growing up.

            I know you made another comment to me which I will respond to in a separate comment as this one is quite long.

          4. A Victor says:

            Hi NJFilly,

            Thank you for your comment about passive aggressive. I have literally been beating myself up over the fact that I sometimes do this. I know why, where it started, when I do it and I’ve been working hard at changing it. But I also know that when people react to it, the reaction can be quite strong, as in “Oh yes! You do do that!” I’ve received that reaction from 3 people in my life, all people who I would say are more direct than I, so it may be attributable to their preference for directness that makes them respond so strongly. I will continue to work at not doing it but your comment has at least given me the freedom to decide if it’s actually a time when I want to, or not. I have been given that freedom by others in other ways also but I think reading your words here will help bring it home more. It is not the end of the world and all the people who said I do it love me! So clearly it hasn’t been something that has defined their and my relationships.

            Also, as a side note, I feel the same way about twerking. I hate it. For many of the reasons you said and also just the way it looks, it’s just gross to me. I have one daughter, the youngest, who found out I hate it, so about 4 times over the last couple of years she did it, she’s good at it too but would not do it publicly as on a dance floor. She might around friends, for a laugh, but that’s it. But each times she’s done it to me, she gets a swat on it, she is an adult, and laughs hysterically! Stinker. Lol!

          5. A Victor says:

            Okay, please forgive the family humor there, I’m laughing too when this happens but I am so embarrassed for her at the same time and I hope it’s only me who ever sees it!

          6. njfilly says:

            First, I am sorry for everything you experienced in your past and everything you are going through now. You definitely have some heavy burdens and a long road to recovery ahead. I wish you luck going forward. I have been to psychiatrists and some therapists many times in my life, if not most of my life. I was diagnosed bipolar in approx. 1990. I have just begun counseling again and had my first counseling session today.

            I didn’t think you owed me an apology but since you apologized, I accept it. It was a bit hypocritical to passive aggressively call me out on my passive aggressive behavior. Ha ha! I also think it is a bit funny too. I’m not above being passive aggressive, or hypocritical. I think we all can be at times, but we try not to. This is easier to recognize on the outside in other people rather than on the inside in ourselves I think, so I understand.

            Now hopefully you will be relieved and not disappointed, but I felt neither shamed nor demoralized by you saying I am a coward. It rolled completely off my back as I know it does not apply, particularly in this circumstance. What I think is cowardly is adults who will not stand firm in their beliefs and values in order to guide the behavior of the youth of society through their wisdom and experience. Instead, they accept everything under the conditioned notion of “tolerance”, and the belief that it is just kids being kids, or youth enjoying their freedom of youth, rather than calling it out as the dysfunctional corrupting behavior that it actually is. I am not directing this at you, or calling you a coward. You can decide if you are. These are my beliefs so I state them relative to my hatred of twerking, and the reason I speak up against it.

            I don’t go to twerking competitions and throw tomatoes at the twerkers, nor do I consistently look to argue with people in order to convince them of my point of view. It would be pointless particularly with young people, and others who support this. It is a losing battle. However, if I come across it in conversation well, as you now know, I do not hold back my opinion. I wish an adult had taken an interest in me and my future when I was young and behaving badly. Well, other than men taking an interest in me sexually. They could have tried to get me to see how this would be detrimental to my development and self-esteem. They could have tried to point out how my behavior was degrading to myself, and that maybe I should pursue something that was more character building in nature. I will continue to speak out about twerking. There might be just one young woman who will hear me.

            For your viewing pleasure, a twerking competition video chosen at random from YouTube.
            https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7n5279UezIE&t=112s

            Watch this video, please. You can’t even convince me there isn’t a shitload of dysfunctional youth in that room. Now let me ask you (and anybody else who may be reading this) the following:

            Do you think these women have healthy self-esteem? In my opinion, no. They clearly want to be viewed as sex objects, and this is about recreating sex moves, and the way the body moves during sex, on the dance floor. Each one wanting to be the most sexual one in the room, sexually desired by the most men, even if she doesn’t personally want to be with those men. Let’s just be honest and call it what it is.

            Is this something you would want for your own daughter or niece? I wouldn’t. Neither do I want this for my neighbor’s daughter or niece, or any other woman in society.

            Do you think these women invite their parents, siblings, extended family, children (if they have any) or neighbors to watch them compete? I would think not.

            Do you think it would help their careers or future employment if they did this and posted it publicly? Again, I think not.

            Do you think this is a valued use of their time in order to develop marketable skills, nurture their personal growth and maturity, build character, or evolve emotionally or spiritually? Well, obviously not.

            Do you think these women will look back on their twerking years with pride, particularly if they eventually mature into healthy adults? Probably not.

            Thinking about the most dignified woman you know, for this example I will use Kate Middleton. Do you think Kate Middleton would twerk, either in public or in private? I highly doubt that.

            I am many things. Some negative, some positive. Cowardly is not one of them.

          7. Leigh says:

            NJFilly, I’m very confused right now. Gypsy Heart made a joke to a grown man about twerking. She didn’t ask an eleven year old about twerking. She asked a grown man. Then Mr. Tudor responded. I actually thought his comment was pretty funny too. Then all of a sudden out of nowhere, you side swipe her and use your bluntness and your honesty as an excuse to be unkind to her. Just so you know, I’m from New York and extremely blunt as well. Gypsy was just trying to make conversation and tried to be a little funny. I understand where you’re coming from but she was talking to a grown man not a child. If an adult wants twerk, that’s really none of your business. This wasn’t about young girls. You made it something it wasn’t and used your bluntness as an excuse. I call bullshit.

          8. njfilly says:

            (redacted for rule breach)

            The only person I owed an explanation and an apology to was Gypsy, and that debt has been paid. I am not required to flagellate myself for some random nobody like you.

            Harmony had already been established here, so what do you think you are adding with your righteous indignation attempting to dredge this up again? Do you think you appear as a hero here? You do not have the maturity to add any additional insight into this situation. You are only adding more anger, and a blatant example of hypocrisy as you, yourself, are quite rude.

            You and your opinions mean nothing to me. You are nothing to me. It is obvious your time would be better spent controlling your own anger rather than chastising me for mine.

            Gypsy handled herself graciously and maturely. You, on the other hand…

          9. Leigh says:

            Ok, so when I make a blunt comment, I’m rude and angry. But when you do it, its ok. I understand. Only you’re allowed to make a blunt comment on a public forum.

            I’m not angry. Just trying to prove a point.

          10. njfilly says:

            Leigh:
            I was not going to respond because you have such a skewed version of the facts it is exhausting just thinking about explaining all the discrepancies in your comment. I decided to reply because I feel I need to defend myself from your false accusations, and I want to restate the portion of my comment that was redacted. Read this, or don’t read this. It is all about me stating it.

            First, I want to make some points which I may refer to later in my comment:
            Point #1: None of what I say here is directed toward Gypsy. I have to refer to her in this reply since she is involved because my initial comment was in reply to her comment. As far as I see, Gypsy and I have no problems between us. She never asked me for an apology, or for anything, and Gypsy and I stand on harmonious ground. Unless she responds and states otherwise.
            Point #2: I will use the word rude/rudeness (the word I used in my apology to Gypsy) to also represent unkindness, which is the word you used in your comment. For purposes of this comment, they mean the same thing.
            Point #3: Rudeness is subjective. We all have differing thresholds. Some people believe simply stating “I disagree”, is rude. What do they find rude about this? They think it is rude that people disagree with their views. They hear insults attached to the statement that are not actually present, i.e. I disagree (you idiot). They expect statements made to them to be softened to accommodate their sensitive feelings, and when this is not done, it is considered rude, i.e. “I disagree, but I understand you may not”; “I disagree, but you are entitled to your opinion”; “In my humble opinion, I disagree”. People are not required to soften their communication style to accommodate anybody. Some people do, and I have stated that I sometimes do because truthfully, I prefer peace. I am not trying to specifically be rude or unkind, cause harm, or create division. I just want to express my views and be heard, like everybody, and I have that right regardless of the sensitivities of others, and regardless of my communication style.

            This is a public blog. Any person on this blog is allowed to enter into any other conversation here and express their opinions*. The conversation between Gypsy and HG Tudor was public, and open for anybody else to enter, as are all conversations on this blog, subject only to the moderator’s discretion.
            You state: “Then all of a sudden out of nowhere, you side swipe her and use your bluntness and your honesty as an excuse to be unkind to her”.
            In what way did I “side swipe” her? I simply added my own comment to the conversation. That is the nature of a public blog, and it happens all over the blog. Did you “side swipe” me with your reprimand? (I will address this point later). Did Witch “side swipe” me by adding a comment that she disagreed with me? I assume if I added a comment agreeing with Gypsy you would not consider it a “side swipe”. Only similar views are allowed. There is no way to give warning that an opposing comment is about to be made and frankly, if you need that warning you have issues that need to be overcome, and perhaps you should not be on a public blog with other adults. (Reaffirm point #1 here).

            With the understanding that rudeness is subjective (Point #3) I was neither rude nor unkind to Gypsy. My comment consisted of four sentences.
            1 & 2) ”In what way would that be a “pleasure”? It would be a disgrace.” I disagreed with what she had written, and I added my own opinion. I did not write anything directly rude or directly about Gypsy.
            3 & 4) ”Twerking is not dancing. It is the equivalent of me vomiting and calling it singing.” My sarcastic contempt for twerking. Rude towards twerking, perhaps, but not having anything to do with Gypsy.
            My comment related entirely to twerking and my negative opinion of it.

            Contrast my comment to your comment:
            You imply in your comment that I acted as if HG Tudor were eleven, while simultaneously reprimanding me for my conduct as if I am eleven. Wow. Hypocrisy much? Who appointed you “blog mommy” to reprimand people for the way they interact? Nobody, and I don’t need anybody to oversee my actions as further, I did nothing wrong. I did not state anywhere that he couldn’t and/or shouldn’t twerk. I stated my opinion as to how I would feel about it if he did. You are partially correct that it is none of my business if adults twerk because I cannot stop it, however, I am still entitled to not like it and say so. I treated both Gypsy and HG Tudor as adults in that they are capable of handling opinions being stated. It is you who is incapable, apparently.

            You made some false, and baseless accusations against me in your comment:
            “you side swipe her and use your bluntness and your honesty as an excuse to be unkind to her”, “You made it something it wasn’t and used your bluntness as an excuse. I call bullshit.”
            I did not make “it” (the conversation) about something it was not. It was about twerking, and my comments were opinions about twerking. I (as well as Gypsy, you, and Witch) are entitled to express our opinions, and opposing views on any conversations that are happening on the blog. Should I view Witch as rude because she disagreed with me? Does she view me as rude? Probably not. I have had many interactions on this blog, and most have been pleasant. I do not make excuses to be unkind to people, and I am rarely outwardly unkind to people on this blog, or in life. That is a blatant lie on your part.

            I have mentioned before that I sometimes try to soften my bluntness because I am aware some empaths can’t handle it. I don’t feel I am required to do this, but I do this so we can come to an understanding of each other. I did not do this with my initial comment to Gypsy, but after reading her two responses I realized that she was going through a lot of emotional turmoil, and was in an emotional state (her words), so I decided to offer an apology and explanation of my views on twerking as an “after the fact” softening of my statements to ease her anxiety around the situation, and to create harmony, if not outright peace. I did not believe I was required to apologize or explain, but I did so because in reality, and as I already stated, I do not want to be unkind or create animosity between myself and others on the blog. My apology did not state “I apologize for being rude”, instead I said “If I was rude to you, I apologize. That was not my intent” because I understand point #3. Also, Gypsy and I have never interacted before, she does not know me, and perhaps she misinterpreted my bluntness for anger directed toward her.

            I am done speaking on this matter. None of your comment was based on the facts of what happened. It was all an emotional response on your part. I want to move on. I do not want to continue to rehash this nonsense, and I want to put this episode behind me. You are free to respond, but unless you state another blatant lie where I feel I need to defend myself (again), I will not be responding.

            *Despite that I resented your comment directed to me, you have a right to make that comment, and I cannot stop it anyway. My negative reaction to your comment was based on its bias, and it came across as a personal attack on me, and the way I conduct myself on this blog. It was a reprimand and a chastisement. Not your job, nor is there any issue with the way I conduct myself and when there is, I can self-monitor myself. Next time you or somebody comments where I don’t want to engage, I will simply ignore the comment. Truthfully, as I already stated, your skewed version of events and opinions of me mean nothing to me. I can easily ignore you.

          11. Asp Emp says:

            njfilly, thank you xx

          12. njfilly says:

            Asp Emp;

            May I ask you to explain? I assume, perhaps, you are very blunt yourself and don’t appreciate being constantly told you are rude.

          13. Asp Emp says:

            njfilly, yes, you summed it up. I do not like my integrity being called into question. You said a lot in your earlier comment that resonated with me. I appreciated reading what you had to say. Hence my ‘thank you’ to you 🙂

          14. njfilly says:

            You’re welcome, and thank you too, Asp Emp.

            I agree, that I don’t like having my integrity questioned either. Particularly when it is based on nonsense.

            I appreciate your support.

          15. Asp Emp says:

            njfilly, you are more than welcome too 🙂 Hahaha, I loved that “particularly when it’s based on nonsense”. As HG says in: https://narcsite.com/2017/09/27/dealing-with-the-evidence-3/ “Save your independent evidence for the third parties.”. Thank you x 🙂

          16. njfilly says:

            Ha ha! OMG, so true!

            Have I learned nothing!?!

            Thank you, Asp Emp.

          17. WiserNow says:

            Wow, njfilly…

            Get over yourself. That response to Leigh was unwarranted and way over the top. This conversation began as a harmless joke. Who cares whether HG twerks in his spare time or not? There are plenty of other things he has actually admitted to that are much worse and people here are prepared to have a polite and accepting conversation about them.

            It’s interesting to me how this conversation has played out. At one point, Gypsy Heart made an apology in a long comment addressing you and others and explained her reasons for making a harmless joke. To me, Gypsy’s ‘apology’ was unnecessary. She made a joke. When I saw her apology, I felt like saying that it was unnecessary, however, I thought, “better not, it’s not going to go over too well. I don’t think I’ll earn myself any kisses or heart emojis.”

            You and others didn’t step in though, and say, “Gypsy, you really don’t need to apologise because there is nothing to apologise for. Here is my long-winded, blunt and honest reply about all the reasons from point 1a) to 10z) about why you actually shouldn’t have to feel the need to apologise.”

            No, you didn’t do that. You just smugly and self-entitledly said, “I accept your apology.” or words to that effect. And you probably lapped up the feeling of ‘superiority’ that her apology gave you.

            But….

            When someone actually questions your ‘honesty’ and ‘bluntness’ with their own ‘honesty’ and ‘bluntness’, you can’t help yourself. You go into a turbo-charged tirade – a diarrhea-like stream of consciousness because your one feeling has been irreparably triggered and hurt.

          18. njfilly says:

            I think you are mistaken, are you imagining things again? You keep doing this.

          19. Leigh says:

            Thank you, Wiser Now. I was beginning to think I was the only one who saw that.

          20. WiserNow says:

            You’re welcome Leigh. You weren’t the only one; I saw it too. I was content to just read this conversation at first because there are several threads to keep up with at any one time. It went in a number of directions after starting off as a joke. I understood your sentiments though.

          21. Bubbles says:

            Dear nfilly,
            I viewed your video and I personally, found this kind of twerking extremely sexual and degrading for women in this particular arena.

            I was interested in it’s history and this is what I found …….

            The origins of twerking have be traced to Côte d’Ivoire in West Africa where a similar style of dance known as the Manuka dance was originated.

            It consists of a series of movements emphasising the buttocks and when done right, requires tremendous skill and attention.

            White mainstream has undermined Black Culture and their history……again ! Had a black entertainer twerked it correctly, we would be more accepting.

            Twerking has a rich history and culture that should indeed be explored, respected and celebrated.

            Sadly, Miley Cyrus made a complete spectacle of herself in creating its shock value, which unfortunately has been exploited even further.
            Luv Bubbles xx 😘

          22. njfilly says:

            Hi AV and Bubbles:
            I’m responding to you both in one comment.

            AV: I think it would be a good idea if we all started to focus more on the message, or what the speaker is trying to convey, rather than the delivery method. As you pointed out, some people can be very direct, some people can’t. Although once you throw narcissists into the mix it messes up all good intentions and common sense. Dealing with constant passive aggression would be exhausting. Maybe they are cowardly MRN, or maybe they are abuse victims who have been conditioned into believing they are not allowed to speak openly about how they feel, so they don’t know how to be direct. In the latter case I think that is something they need to overcome.

            In the conversation on the other thread that I referenced I mentioned that my conversation style is often blunt. I stated that because I know this about myself, I will often try to soften my approach. Because I have made an attempt to soften, I believe the other party needs to make an attempt to toughen so that we can meet in the middle where understanding is found. I believe this to be true, and I come to these conclusions by introspection on my own behavior, which I do very often and at length, so I don’t want to appear as if I think I know everything, and that these ideas I come up with don’t apply to me. I am trying to implement everything I say into my own life.

            Bubbles:
            Thank you for that information about twerking. I did not know about the origins of twerking, and I found that very interesting.

            I want to make clear that it is these twerking competitions that I hate, not twerking movements that are incorporated into a dance, as Witch pointed out. I was generalizing when I should have been specific. I don’t see a problem with the movement when incorporated into a dance, and when not done on top of a man’s face, and in the atmosphere that was portrayed in the video I posted.
            The particular twerking movement of the buttocks is also a dance movement in belly dancing as well. It is part of a lower body undulation, so it is, in reality, a “dance movement”.
            I agree that the African Dance, and twerking has been corrupted to a degrading level, as everything in society is becoming. I disagree that it is white mainstream undermining black culture. I disagree with that paradigm. White people are not, as a whole, out to undermine black people and their culture. America is a melting pot of many cultures, not just white people. I see celebrities of all races twerking, and the video also showed girls of different races. Over in Africa it is highly likely that their young people are also having these same type of twerking competitions, and their elders may be wringing their hands, wondering how to regain control of their out-of-control youth. It may have even been a thing over in Africa before it came to America since that is their style of dance. I doubt African youth are any less dysfunctional than American youth. The dysfunction is throughout the world, in my opinion.
            Last thing I want to say is that I view these twerking competitions as out of control, dysfunctional youth who possibly have been given no guidance in life and don’t know how to appropriately channel their excess energy, creativity, sexuality and angst due to their confusion about life. I view it as a symptom of the real problem. The real problem may be neglect and abuse caused by narcissists.
            Thank you for the discussion.

          23. Bubbles says:

            Dearest nfilly,
            Thank you for your reply lovely
            My comment was coming from the article I read.
            Luv Bubbles xx 😘

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