No Contact Suicide – Part One


No Contact can be difficult to implement. Even harder to maintain.

We are looking to batter down your no contact wall and breach your defences so that we can exert control over you once again. It may be because we want draw fuel from you, positive or negative or we may wish to draw fuel and pull you back into the Formal Relationship once again and attach you to us so plenty of delicious fuel is provided to us. Dependent on our fuel needs, the constitution of our fuel matrix and the school of narcissist that we are, we may dedicate considerable time and effort to knocking down your no contact.

Having worked hard to escape us or, if disengaged, build that wall before the Follow-Up Hoovers start when we turn our attention to you once again, there are many occasions where you commit no contact suicide and bring your own wall tumbling down with next to no help from us.

There are two main elements to this no contact suicide. I explained in The Wrong No Contact that you may think you have established no contact, but you actually have not. With no contact suicide, you may well have actually implemented a robust and solid no contact regime and then, as the song goes, you go and spoil it all by doing something stupid.

Keep in mind that we anticipate the commission of no contact suicide and therefore in certain instances our own behaviour will be adjusted to encourage you to bring about the demise of your no contact yourself.

The first part of no contact suicide concerns you ending no contact by simply contacting us. This is either by messaging us, telephoning us or even making an appearance in person.

This may seem an obvious thing not to do, but it repeatedly happens. Ordinarily, if you have escaped us you will receive an Initial Grand Hoover as we fight to bring you back into the Formal Relationship. This happens most of the time – however if it does not or if it has happened and the IGH failed, we may well be relying on you committing no contact suicide through you contacting us. Alternatively, when we want to hoover you weeks or months after your escape or disengagement and you have put in place no contact we recognise there are ways of causing you to commit no contact suicide. Accordingly, you need to be aware of the ways by which we will look to cultivate an environment conducive to this occurring and also the ways in which you are susceptible to committing no contact suicide.

You also need to keep at the forefront of your mind that we are relying on bringing about  no contact suicide so that you contact us and once that happens we want your emotional thinking to surge (through repeated involvement with us following the commission of your no contact suicide) so that you reject logic and fall prey to just your emotional thinking once again. Then it is all aboard the emotional thinking train on an express route to Narc Town again.

  1. The Need For Closure

Victims have a huge need for closure. Understand this – we will never give it you. However, we know that you want it and therefore you have this need to interact with us for the purpose of understanding what has happened and achieving closure. You preferably want to speak with us, either on the telephone or in person. You are a truth seeker and the desire to find out why we did as we did, why we treated you in  this fashion (and especially if you have not realised what you have been dealing with) means the chances of you contacting us to secure closure are high. We will also bait you in this regard, offering to speak with you so closure can be obtained. We will not grant it you and instead we will give you half-answers, riddles and provoke you so that you keep engaging with us. The repeated engagement will feed the emotional infection, cause your emotional thinking to rise and then we have you ensnared again.

Do not seek closure from us. Make your own closure by utilising my works so you understand what has happened. Ask your questions of me, not of the narcissist you were entangled with.

2. The Desire For Revenge

You have been abused, messed around and humiliated. It is time to kick some narcissist ass and get revenge isn’t it? Why not? After all you have escaped, you understand more about who you are dealing with and therefore suitably empowered you tell yourself that driven by this anger, this hatred you will now make our lives hell.

By all means bring it on.

This is an understandable response, but it will cause you to commit no contact suicide. If you are seeking revenge in the immediate aftermath of disengagement or escape (and by that I mean anything up to 4-6 months afterwards) you will not be applying logic. Your emotional thinking is raging and surging and all you will do is mess up the revenge and become ensnared by us in some form again. You may find yourself back in the Formal Relationship or more likely engaged in trying to land blows against us as we revel in doling out malign hoovers against you, smearing you and pointing to your behaviour as exactly the reason why we got rid of you in the first place.

The desire for revenge is often high. Resist it. If you wish to seek revenge 4-6 months later, when your emotional thinking is firmly under control and you are applying logic, then do so and you will be far more likely to succeed. Yet, if you seek it at an early stage you will commit no contact suicide and with no good outcome for you.

3 Returning property/collecting property

We look to leave items of property with you and/or keep items of your property with us so that there is a hook by which we can contact you with the pretence of sorting out this outstanding issue. It is just a way of creating Ever Presence and then having a basis by which we can seek to hoover you.

If you have our property, remove it as part of your purging exercise. Arrange for it to be delivered back to us by courier or a third party. You do not need to contact us to ask do we want it back, you do not need to contact us to make arrangements to bring about a hand over and resist your emotional thinking which will be trying to persuade you to meet up with us like some romantic reunion at Checkpoint Charlie as you hand back a box of possessions and we use the interaction as a prime opportunity to draw fuel from you as you have just committed no contact suicide. We may not even take the goods off you, leaving them with you so we can use the excuse on further occasions.

If you have property with us write it off or make arrangements for a third party to effect recovery and if it is of significance you may have to go to law (either civil or involve the police) in order to cause us to relinquish our hold on the items. Again, our hold is not based on the items themselves (they could be your Barbie doll collection or a sports car) but rather that the item or items  provide a basis for activating a hoover by way of Hoover Trigger and/or because we recognise it will cause you to commit no contact suicide.

Recognise how property will be used against you.

4. Your Replacement/ New Interest

In certain instances we shall parade your replacement (if you were the IPPS) or a new interest (if you are a Shelf IPSS or DLS) in order to cause you to break your no contact. Many times the narcissist, when with a new IPPS, does not want to hear from you as you have been effectively deleted but this parading may still occur because

a. We gain Thought Fuel from imagining your anger or upset at knowing we are with someone else so soon after your disengagement or escape;

b. We want you to break no contact to try to challenge us in some way. This provides us with fuel and enables us to either engage in facade management by being pleasant with you (sometimes the response of upper echelon narcissists) or  allows us to engage in a malicious response to punish you and draw negative fuel.

c. We also want you to break no contact to try to challenge us so it supports the basis of our smearing of you. We gain fuel but we can also show everybody what a wild-eyed harpy you are and how fortunate we were to escape your clutches and find someone who understands us and treats us well.

This parading of the new interest may be done through announcements on social media, appearances at social events and even walking by arm in arm where you live. it is designed to cause you to commit no contact suicide by

a. Having a go at us for dumping you and finding someone else so quickly;

b. To invite your commentary when it is a situation of Have You Seen Who He Is With

c. To try to warn the new interest what they have got themselves into (which invariably fails and backfires)

d. Finding out more about this person

e. To see if we are truly happy with this person – a common fear of the former appliance

Your emotional thinking will con you by suggesting that you should confront us because we have treated you terribly and we should be made aware of this, that you have an obligation as a decent person to warn this fresh victim about us, to sneer at our choice of new love interest when you are far superior to this person and in other ways besides.

Recognise that this is your emotional thinking which is masquerading as logic and reject it before it reaches a tipping point and you become involved again.

Breaching no contact in these circumstances rarely results in you becoming ensnared in the Formal Relationship again (because of course we have someone new) but it provides benefits to us (as detailed above) but it maintains your obsession and investment so that your no contact has crumbled and may never be re-built so that when we do hoover you at a later stage to resurrect the Formal Relationship, it is easy.

5. Provocation Via Third Parties

We will not contact you direct. We want to remain aloof and draw you to us by causing you to commit no contact suicide. It reinforces our perception of power if we can cause you to destroy your own no contact and come to us.

A further way of bringing this about is to say something about you to a third party, knowing it will get back to you. It might be to a friend of yours, a colleague, the children you share with us, another family member or a neighbour. Examples would include :-

“I am rather concerned about Anne’s drinking at the moment and I wondered if you, as her sister, might have a word with her before it gets out of hand.”

“Yes, I have tried to be civil with your friend but every time I go past her house to get to work she opens the window and shouts dog’s abuse at me. I have no idea why she is being like this, but she clearly has some kind of  mental problem.”

“You know Daddy tried to stop me from seeing you because he is jealous of what a lovely time we have together. That’s not nice is it.”

“Well, I do not mind if you go to the concert but your Mum has said you are not allowed to, so you need to take it up with her.”

“I hear she has been looking for jobs with Alpha Corporation. Yes she said she is sick of being taken for granted by you and her colleagues.”

Naturally these will be lies but the intention is for this to be relayed to you and your annoyance at our behaviour, your need to establish the truth and have others knows it (including us) will cause your emotional thinking to surge so you will send a furious text message or telephone us to confront us. Once you do and we gain fuel from your response, we will use various manipulations to keep you engaging as we draw more fuel and feed the emotional infection so you will not let the matter go.

No matter how annoyed you are, how tempting it is to want to put us in our place, this is a deliberate provocation through a third party to cause you to breach no contact and get in touch with us.

There are many other methods that are deployed in bringing about this form of No Contact Suicide but the end game is the same – we want you to make contact with us by message, by telephone and best of all in person so your no contact has been destroyed and we can get what we want from you.

Understand that this is a motivation on our part. Recognise that if we have not directly hoovered you (when you expected it to happen) that we may well be engineering you to commit no contact suicide and familiarise yourself with the ways that this comes about so you can tackle your emotional thinking and maintain no contact.

159 thoughts on “No Contact Suicide – Part One

  1. Narc Angel says:

    An observation:

    Viewed with logic, it appears some are addicted to the sugar-coating and using it to quell the craving and addiction created by the absence or lack of attention by their narc. The same scenario repeatedly by some, with reply after reply of empathy and compassion by other commenters only to result in the same scenario on the next article. Is it even possible to read the articles and suggestions of others repeatedly over months without taking any of it in or moving forward if one is truly looking to heal? Like the basic earth shattering news that narcs lie? Or might that just be a case of addiction to attention period?

    Narcs are big fat fucking liars and you continue to buy into them and make sense of them when you are told (and have experienced) repeatedly that this is the case, so thats on you.

    Now just watch how easily it will be to take in what I just said and have them come to life lashing out as opposed to all of the helpful and empathic messages and inspirational suggestions that in all of their flowery goodness continue to fall on deaf ears but are accepted with grace.

    The result is the same-that the person still remains stuck.

    People hear what they want to hear so dont shoot the messenger.

    1. K says:

      Well written Narc Angel. There is an idiom that can be applied here: cruel to be kind.

      And I welcome that cruelty wholeheartedly.

    2. Sarabella says:

      It’s a balance. I was accused once of not listening but I truly could not fathom that he was such accused accused would person. But at the time, I had 3 huge, huge personal issue in my life that were very serious accusednwfulnd they prevented me from really dealing with things well. I was a huge pile of hurt extreme stress from multiple places, barely functioning and just because a few people told it to me like it is, doesn’t mean I was supposed to just go,, yeah, gotcha, “Silly me”. Raw truth delivered dispassionately is important but the messengers also need to not be attached to the outcome.. There is so much going on for people on so many levels and it can’t always be conveyed in a few blog posts. Sometimes, just getting a response, even if its been said before, is a life line. Only until those extreme stressors settled down was I able to really focus on breaking the cord with me and the narc. And working hard to finally get my narc mother, a completely misunderstood dynamic for 30 years. That doesn’t resolve in just a few posts by strangers on a blog.

      1. Oui Oui Phiphara says:

        Is English your first, second or no language at all??? You sound like a retard or a Google translate from Hottentot. Excruciating read, really!

        1. HG Tudor says:

          Translation not translate.

        2. Violetta says:

          Oui oui breynes:

          In cloaca maxima tua trud’.

  2. Not So Sad says:

    HG I need some advise please 🙂

    Nearly three years free & no contact with narc. I’ve recently found out that an ex close friend has been messaging narcs current supply .

    Personal stuff that only she would know & I shared trusted with her about my thoughts on . She’s told ” It “& It’s supply ( Long story)

    I’ve been informed that IT & it’s supply have gone into free fall online with the information she’s given them .

    I know it will be fuel for him .

    I don’t suppose there is any way I can do damage limitation

    # Harsh .

    Thanks Again NSS x

    1. HG Tudor says:

      The damage is done. The best way to limit it is :-

      1. Do not address what has happened and is out there by trying to counter it etc – this will only provide fuel and use up your time and energy on a futile task;
      2. You are better served by maintaining the appearance of not being bothered;
      3. Ensured there are no further ‘leaks’ either through this particular individual and others as there may be other traitors in your ranks.

      1. Not So Sad says:

        Thank you , 🙂

      2. Not So Sad says:

        Done .

        Thank ever so much yet again HG x

  3. Jenna says:

    After my last post, i reset my apps and nothing happened. I reset my apps a 2nd time and i got 7 narcsite articles in my inbox, approx 15 min ago. I wonder why i didn’t get them all day, or why i didn’t get them on my 1st reset? Is it possible for a narc who moderates a blog on wordpress to block somebody’s ip address, or am i just being paranoid? 😄 After all this narc education, i realize i can expect anything frm a narc! 😉

    Anyways, it bothers me not. I’m just relieved to see hg posting. I was v worried. I am grateful to u hg and i am sorry for my treachery. Treachery ends here. ❌

  4. Jenna,
    “Note: pls feel free to comment on my posts.”

    You Big CuddleBunny, you!
    I will NOT apologize!!
    You are so sweet, and empathic!
    And a peacemaker.

    I am a bit hug resistant, myself, but I bet if I met you I’d probably have an urge to snuggle you for a tiny bit.


    1. Jenna says:

      Ooh i love snuggles. Let’s invite hg? 😅

      1. LOL! You’re brave!
        HG is amazing, but it’s probably safer to snuggle a porcupine.

        1. MLA - Clarece says:

          Perse & Jenna! I think HG could be down for a good thumb wrestling match. lol

          1. K says:

            HG isn’t a fan of physical contact so you might want to go with Rock, Paper, Scissors.

          2. Jenna says:

            Perse, clarece, k,


            I’m trying to get back into hg’s good books after my treachery. I wish to be painted white again. I should have realized that inviting him for snuggles will not work. What was that word k? Ahhh, ‘masterful’!

            Here it goes. Hg, you are intelligent, well spoken, articulate, creative, artistic, determined, dilligent, observant, pensive, athletic, health and fitness conscious, well dressed, dignified, well cultured, charming, alluring, a genuis, and… masterful. And, of course, there’s more. But i will save those for another time when i might be painted black!

          3. K says:

            Yes, the word was masterful, however, I don’t think HG has painted you black for your treachery but nice try with those flattering words.

  5. Tappan Zee says:

    NC is the hardest thing ever, it’s turning your life upside down; forcing yourself to go against all your emotional instincts and facing all your demons; it hurts so bad and there are numerous setbacks along the way. I’m still in the beginning of this journey and it’s pure hell a lot of the times. In a way you have to reach a point where NC is the only possible way to move forward, the only way to protect yourself and save yourself.

    ^ yes. yes. yes. I would rather:

    –eat vomit
    –snort glass
    –skydive no parachute
    –be cut open w/o anasthesia

    The list goes on and on and on…

    There is no fun in nc. It hurts like a mofo. I would not take anything that was said to Gab as haha. It is sucker punch holy hell. I would never want her to hurt worse than she already does. That is true for any narc survivor. The dynamic itself, is funny in an ironic, sordid, twisted way that hurts worse than any possible phsyical pain I can think of. I am glad we are comrades in this. I am sorry there is so much pain. It is like war. And we are the walking wounded. No sisters left behind.

  6. K says:

    My childhood was so violent and brutal that HG could hurl grenades of truth at me, wrapped up in barbed wire and booby trapped with mustard gas and I would happily catch them and say, “Thank you.”

    1. Tappan Zee says:

      …hurl grenades of truth at me, wrapped up in barbed wire and booby trapped with mustard gas and I would happily catch them and say, “Thank you.”

      ^ riiiight

  7. H. says:

    The reading is of critical importance. If I feel a second of weakness…(social media stalking is my sin), I open one of my e-books, and I find my resolve again.

  8. Iris says:

    I agree and disagree with HG’s post about sugar-coating and giving raw truths at the same time:

    I agree that it is his job to tell the facts as straight forward as possible and that he must intervene when he sees people using emotional thinking, but I know that the human brain can’t accept raw truths without some form of sugar coating. It gets defensive and shuts down. When that happens you loose your opportunity to get through to them.

    So there has to be a balance between delivering the facts as they are and showing some compassion when you do it. Like giving some words of encouragement. Showing that you understand how difficult it is.

    Maybe that is where we can offer some help. We have all been there, so we are experts too. Just another kind of expert.

    1. Jenna says:


      “… human brain can’t accept raw truths without some form of sugar coating. It gets defensive and shuts down”.

      This is exactly what happens to me. I was not replying to any of his texts. He tried 7x in 2 wks. I was feeling so hurt frm all the harsh comments i was receiving on the blog, that i wanted some kindness frm him. I replied to him after his 7th try. Of course, as usual, he was kind, sweet, polite, cooperative, reassuring, and it made me feel so much better. He does not know i’m on this site, but in general i just wanted some kindness, and i knew he wud give that to me in a way nobody else comes close to.

      So now i’m back to where i started. As long as being in that place doesn’t bother me, i’ll b ok. But i know that eventually his evasiveness will bug me.
      (Note: we are no longer intimate nor do i meet him, we only text occasionally).

      I have to do a real no contact. But its hard when i get harsh comments here. That’s why i decided not to post much abt our current situation here anymore. If i don’t get the harsh comments, i’m more likely to carry thru with nc.

      1. Jenna says:

        In fact, i did more treachery. For the first time in over a yr, since i found this blog, i ventured to other sites, to read. I will not comment on other sites becoz i do not participate in online forums at all, except for hg’s. Hg’s blog is the only exception to my rule.

        It left me thinking that harsh comments really deter some pple. But oh well, u can’t change pple. U can only change urself. So i have found ways around the prblm: 1)not post too much abt my current situation, 2)read other sites as well, sadly.

      2. Jenna says:

        Note: pls feel free to comment on my posts.

        I realized that this is an online forum, so i should be able to accept all kinds of judgements, including harsh ones filled w sarcasm and shaming. So if anyone is thinking “oh poor jenna, she gets hurt frm such comments so i better not comment harshly” – NO, pls don’t think that. I realized it is unrealistic of me to expect that. I reminded myself that i can’t change pple, i can only change myself. So, i am adjusting myself. I do not wish to annoy anyone, as was pointed out to me.

        Mind u, i will think that u r low in “decency … you are polite and well mannered” (one of the 8 empathic traits). U may disagree with me stating that u r well mannered and polite, but it is my opinion, esp when some comments contain foul language and such, and just like u have the right to ur opinion, i have the right to mine.

      3. Jenna says:

        Note 2: my treacherous act of going to other websites means, psychology websites abt narcissism. I do not ever go into internet support forums (except here, tho i don’t really consider this a support forum; it is an educational forum). Support forums, I dislike. They offer pity and nothing else.

        I need answers. Here, when i post, lately instead of gaining answers, i’m more feeling shamed for not being nc. Which is fine, i’m not complaining. Like i said, i found a solution to the prblm.

      4. Iris says:

        Dear Jenna,

        I think your are the sweetest person on this forum and I love reading your comments.

        It took me some time to understand them at first, because you have a unique way of writing (u = you, ty = thank you etc.) and English isn’t my first language, but now I just read them out loud and they make perfect sense to me.

        I hope you will stay and will try to focus on your healing instead of feeling hurt. I know how it feels though when you get hurt on a forum, so a big hug from me.

        1. Jenna says:


          Ty. Ur english is excellent btw (btw= by the way). I am definitely staying. I tried to leave 2 wks ago, but i came running back. Now, i am augmenting my knowledge w info frm other websites. I will not leave here tho.

          Pls don’t worry abt me feeling hurt. I have finally accepted that all kinds of comments will come my way, and i am ready to deal with it. Pple get annoyed if i get hurt, and i don’t want to annoy anyone. So, bring on the comments!

        2. MLA - Clarece says:

          I know Iris. Jenna is our little Love Bug here!

          1. Jenna says:

            Iris and clarece,

            Ty, but u guys r too generous.

      5. Jenna says:

        I’d like to add that i NEVER feel that hg’s comments are harsh. He tells the truth using good manners, no sarcasm, no foul language, politically correct terms, no name calling, no condescending, and no assumptions. If he doesn’t have all the details, he clearly states ‘i need more information’. He does not jump to ill informed conclusions. Coming frm somebody who lacks empathy, i think it is very commendable.

      6. Jenna says:

        HG where r u? 😰
        U haven’t posted any new articles since morning. I will stop my treachery. I won’t go to any more of those ‘other’ sites. U probably don’t care anyways. But i’m starting to feel guilty. I will ask u the questions i want to ask u right here. Pple will get mad but i don’t care. Let them get mad. I don’t want to venture narcissism outside of hg tudor. I did it for abt a week but i can’t take the guilt anymore. I feel like a traitor. Pls come back?😢

    2. Tappan Zee says:

      I get what you’re saying Iris. I want the truth but do not want it to hurt. It does though, inherently. Regardless of the delivery. We either hear it and it hurts. Or we fail to hear it and feel hurt by whomever said it and place scorn on them. I wish there were an anisthetic for delivery of the truth. I also wish there were a way to achieve cold logic in a sped up way. I find it to read easy and play hard.

      1. Iris says:

        The brain literally shuts down when it can’t handle the truth. That has be proven many times with tests. So that’s why the delivery has to be just right: not to harsh and not to soft.

        But it isn’t HG’s job to sugar-coat his words. He can just concentrate on telling us for the millionth time not to fall back on our emotional thinking ;-).

        We can do the supporting part.

  9. Insatiable Learner says:

    HG, I appreciate you expressing your dissent, which was entirely expected. I did not deny the importance of speaking the truth or giving the answer desired. My point is to do so in love and kindness, not something you sir, with all due respect and acknowledgement of your invaluable help and insight on here, would truly know or were genuinely capable of. Yes, you can fake it, imitate it, copy it, etc when you are out in the world, but since we all know what you are on here, hearing you speak the truth without sugar-coating, since no compassion or kindness should realistically be expected from you, is a lot more palatable than harsh words coming from someone you think of as a fellow empath. I hope this makes sense to you. Again, I appreciate and respect your opinion but I stand by mine.

  10. Mess says:

    HG, since I happen to have two Facebook accounts – one that I was primarily using that had all of my friends and family on it, and one that I used to use for work that has some of my friends and family on it, and, to me, it seems like blocking still looks reactionary/emotional to the narc, like he might enjoy the fact that I was so upset that I blocked them, I have thus far just stopped using the account where I am friends with him – therefore he is not blocked, but it is frozen in time, and he gets no further info about me from it, nor can he see if and when I am online. Is this an okay approach? And would it bother him more than being blocked (can’t help but want to piss him off a bit in a non fuel providing way)? He can’t see my other account as he never knew it existed, and for some reason, which I don’t recall now, I blocked him from it a long time ago when I first met him (a premonition perhaps). So now, I have been using that other one and slowly adding my family to it. After a good deal of time goes by, I will likely log back onto the other one and block him quietly as a sort of anti-climax. Is this a mistake?

    1. HG Tudor says:

      A narcisisst will give the impression to you (if able to contact you) and others that your act of blocking was done because you are scared of the narcissist. This is purely to try to draw fuel from such a comment, to maintain superiority and the upper hand. Blocking us wounds us.

  11. Iris says:

    You make “controlling your emotional thinking” sound so easy HG, but it has been one of the hardest things I have ever had to do.

    It is scary when you can’t trust your own instincts anymore, because they are temporarily high on crack.

    I know narcs can be obsessed by an ex-partner too, especially someone that has escaped and wounded them badly.

    They are all the narc can think about for a while and they go mad obsessing about all the things they want to do to this girl.

    This is a sort of emotional thinking too, isn’t it?

    And it is just as hard for them to let that go as it is for us. I know because my ex-narc used to obsess about his ex-wife all the time and it took him forever to let it go. I’m not sure he ever really did.

    1. HG Tudor says:

      It is harder for some than others Iris but it can be done. Some people will not even try.

      1. Iris says:

        As Amelia Earhart used to say: “The most effective way to do it is to do it”

    2. K says:

      Malice obsession.

  12. Iris says:

    When installing some boundaries use the “NO with a smile”-tactic. Works every time :-).

  13. Iris says:

    For everyone who is beating themselves up because they’ve broken their no contact:

    we are like heroin addicts trying to kick the habit. We all have withdraw symptoms and sometimes they are stronger than we are.

    So you fall, you dust yourself off and you try again. Until one day you are free again.

    I’m not fully there yet, but I’m already feeling so much better than I did a year ago, so it will happen. I’m sure of it.

    1. narc affair says:

      Hi Iris very true!! We do beat ourselves up! I think catherine or blank mentioned it takes a breaking pt and its more or less the straw that broke the camels back and we leave for good. Some of us that breaking pt comes quicker than others and the abuse is different in each case.
      On average it takes 7 times before a victim leaves for good but can take even longer. Not to sugarcoat it bc i get HG’s and others more tough love advice and appreciate it but it really is so individual. Theres days i get sick of my own story and feel low about myself. I feel a fool for continuing but it is difficult. I guess i havent reached that breaking pt yet.
      A friend of mine said to me if you want to see the relationship unravel start putting boundaries in place. This is an area ive not entirely done yet. If i did im sure id see under the mask. My pt is if you cant do no contact instill boundaries and youll start to really see what youre dealing with and this may in itself be the push towards no contact.

    2. narc affair says:

      Meant to say also youre right it is an addiction anot just mentally but chemically in the brain unfortunately the only way to rid oneself is to get rid of the drug and go thru withdrawals. It hurts really bad but so does yrs of abuse.

      1. Tappan Zee says:

        It hurts really bad but so does yrs of abuse.

        ^ right naffair. i never get why we “forget” the pain and abuse, like a heroin addict, YES.

    3. Jenna says:

      Hi iris,

      Very encouraging words. I also struggle with nc, but i am much better than i was last yr, due to hg, and due to my being here. I learn so much and the knowledge itself is very freeing. All we can do is keep trying.

    4. PureRage says:

      I am kidding myself over and over again, by telling myself:
      This is going to be the last time … i will enjoy this bit.. make him believe that i will never go away.. then when he feels he has me completely again… i wil brake it up.. and run away forever… ( trying to wound him to death)
      Deluding myself..
      Right HG ?

      1. HG Tudor says:


  14. Ugotit says:

    I screwed up so bad after four months of no contact he started messaging me on thanksgiving after 13 days of ignoring his messages I replied late last night now tonight I get a message from one of his friends asking me about trump (he’s in Algeria) then he asked me directly his my relationship was with said narcopath which I don’t think he ever directly asked me about before I fucked up and told him the truth about him leaving me twice how we are not together how his friend has a psychiatric problem which ironically he agreed with me and I told him not to tell said narcopath now I’m terrified he instructed this friend to message me do u think he did or its just a coincidence

    1. Ugotit says:

      Meant to say he asked me how my relationship with narcopath is directly never asked before

      1. deifilia says:

        I will vote “yes”. I don’t believe in coincidences, especially when it comes to them. And even if your narc has nothing to do with this, why keep in touch with his friend? It’s not a real NC if you leave an open door for doubt and confusion, again. It’s his friend after all.

      2. Jenna says:

        Hi kim,

        I agree with deifilia. I think ur ex instructed his friend to ask u. U shud probably block the friend too. I’m sorry to hear that u broke nc. U can still pick it up frm where u left off. Do u feel strong enuf to do that?

      3. Ugotit says:

        Jenna don’t think I’ll hear from him again when I answered him Tuesday and Wednesday I literally spoke no words he asked how my Thanksgiving was and how my daughter was I literally only gave him thumbs up emojis I spoke no words to avoid giving him fuel plus I commuted an act of treachery by telling his friend bad things about him Wednesday night which is unnaceptable in Islam to tell another Muslim man bD things about your Muslim husband boyfriend etc I’m sure he’s back in a cold fury silent treatment cuz I haven’t heard back in two days since wednesday

      4. Jenna says:


        Only thumbs up, no words – haha!! And u comitted treachery. Lol, that’s what i committed too! They never forget treachery!

        I hope he leaves u alone. He is scum. Try to stay strong! U can do it!

        1. Ugotit says:

          He literally just messaged me an hour ago after five days

          1. Jenna says:

            Ignore it kim, ignore it!!!

  15. Iris says:

    I did it Catherine: I send him an email in which I told him exactly what I thought of him and that I finally saw through his façade.

    It felt really good to do that. Not for him, because I knew he wouldn’t understand, but for me. It was my own closure and I never regretted it.

    1. Catherine says:

      Iris, that sounds good. That’s exactly for the same reason I want to do it myself too. Not for him. For me. I never, except once, spoke up, like I should’ve when with him, I was an emotional coward; fearing his anger and revenge. I need to get a say in this, to interpret what went down between us, to let him know how abusive he is even if he won’t understand it.

      How long did you wait until you sent your email? Did he reply or did you immediately block him again?

      1. Iris says:

        I did it when I found out that he had a replacement already in place before we’d officially broken up (as they always do), but we were on a break (or better said: in a silent treatment).

        He wanted to switch our roles: I would be the fling on the side and this new girl would be his new official girlfriend. He fully expected me to go along with this.

        However, this was the final straw for me, because my ego wouldn’t allow me to accept this humiliation and that’s when I sent him the email.

        He was infatuated with the new girl, so he couldn’t care less, but that wasn’t the point (although some wounding would have been nice hahaha). He wrote: “let it go” and so I did. I blocked him.

        Haven’t heard from him in 1,5 years, until this new relationship failed. Then he hoovered me on my social media with a new nickname. I didn’t aswer and blocked him again.

        Narcs, they are a persisted little bunch, aren’t they? *sigh*

      2. Catherine says:

        Good for you Iris! And the nerve of these narcissist! They keep coming back.

  16. Catherine says:

    I’m guilty of No Contact Suicide. Or actually I didn’t even enforce No Contact the first month or so after our breakup. I did text him concerning property (my keys, which he blatantly refused to return to me deflecting my request with riddles and such) and I was desperate for closure (not being able to wrap my head around the fact that a grown man can’t have a discussion that leads to closure, which on the other hand should have been all too familiar to me from all the fights we’d had where he refused to participate in any grown up and accountable way).

    Since No Contact my two problem areas would be closure and revenge. I don’t care about property anymore. My locks are changed anyway and I’ll burn the clothing and such that he still has here. I still crave that closure though. And even though I’m not after any kind of violent revenge I want to send him a letter (l won’t ever trust myself to see him in person because I do know the kind of power he wields over me) going through our relationship from my point of view, telling him some hard truths and letting him know what he’s done and what he is. He deprived me of my voice and I need to make myself heard again. But I haven’t acted on any of these urges; and I will not do it either. I’ll stay here, keep on learning and reading, getting my closure from you HG and from working on myself, trying to move on in a healthy way. Then, if I still feel the urge to send the letter in 6-7 months from now, depending on where I am in my recovery, I tell myself I will do it. Then block him again.

    1. sarabella says:

      I had to look at alot of other relationships I have been in, and I never had ‘closure’. People just go their own way.

      But in the online community of narc recovery, it became a big deal. But truthfully, I don’t think that is what any of us are after. We want it go go BACK to what it felt like in the beginning. We don’t want closure, we want another chance, we want them back, we want to go back to when we weren’t disillusioned. We want their love that never was.

      We want to not feel like a FOOL. Like someone just raped your mind body and souls but the thing is, they did this and there is no undoing it on their end. They can’t fix what they broke so willingly. And the hard part, is the pain is so tremendous, we have to face we may never feel good about this chapter in our lives. And its something to just live with. THe pain will lessen, but it will always be there.

      Imagine that he hurt me so deeply 30 years ago. A month ago, I found a letter to a boyfriend. And I cried when I read that letter because in that letter, we were both talking about problems in our relationship and the level of distrust in me was huge and I know now, who had put it there. The narc had. The same one who had hurt me so deeply, had repeated it. There are big reasons why I had lost my memory of what he had originally done. Or, it was so profoundly hurtful, when I was so young, he had already damaged a part of my soul. And he came back and did it again. I will never find closure from a freak like that. He wanted to hurt. I saw him post to someone, it’s been a while since I reached down and ripped out someone’s guts. So these FUCKERS know what they are doing. There is not closure there.

      You have to just face the utter humiliation and shame and anger and rage and know that only time is goint to erase it from your life.

      I did recontact him some time ago, 8 months ago. And long story short, I was able to get in, “I hope you are proud of what you did. You used me, The joke was on me. Fuck me. You caused this hurt. You. You said it was real, you used me. End of story”

      And he then blocked me. I think he was ‘wounded’. LOL So I know at least in that way, I did have the last word. But god, the ick lasted so long. It has taken 3 years to get on top of the hurt he caused. And I will take what little power I have from taking that voice back and telling him the truth of the whole story. So it puts the shame back on him at least and he knows I don’t take any more responsibility or blame. This was ALL, 100% HIS fault. He provoked the fights, he started the abuse, he told all the lies. Not me. HIs shame….

      I hope you find some way to throw it back on this for your sake. But I don’t think you want closure. At some point, a way to look at it too, is that it is just unrequited love. Happens to alot of people. Takes some of the sting out of being the target of a malignant narc.

      1. Catherine says:


        You’re right in so many ways. I know that inherent in the need for closure is that hurtful hope of it all being a mistake somehow. That things could be explained and sorted out and that it could in some sense make all the bewildering and excruciating pain go away.

        I’m still in cognitive dissonance; I’m struggling so hard each and every day to make myself start thinking logically about him, and I am slowly managing to find my way, but there are setbacks all the time; the addiction makes it hard even to breathe sometimes, my heart will be flooded with raw emotion and the pain will be almost unbearable. Something in me has shifted though, I know I can’t allow him back in my life, I wouldn’t be able to face myself if I did.

        For me the turning point was when he was physically violent with me. The emotional abuse was much worse really, but somehow I managed to explain that to myself through endless inner tirades of justifying his actions, belittling and blaming myself. It’s difficult to pinpoint emotional abuse when you’re in the intense middle of it. But with the physical abuse it was there. Loud and clear. A fact I can’t look away from. That’s how I feel anyway. And that’s what’s helping me slowly move on.

        But closure? I know I won’t have it. And I recognise the inherent hope in it. I want to make my voice heard though, for me, I feel that I’ve never stood up for myself in my whole life before and I need to assert myself this time. I probably will send the letter later on, but I’m not sure, I might not feel that urge six months down the line.

        And I’m so sorry for what you’ve been through and for the emotional scar he left you with that’s impacted on your life in so many ways. We need to make our voices heard. Thanks for reaching out to me.

      2. Salome says:

        “We want it go go BACK to what it felt like in the beginning.”


    2. Reba says:

      Catherine, I read HG’s book “Revenge” which was very helpful and would recommend it for you. I understand why you would want to send him that letter but based on reading Revenge, I personally would not. It will only give him fuel because he probably knows what he’s done to you and doesn’t care that he has hurt you–if anything it gave him fuel and the fact that you are still thinking about it months later will give him even more. Depending on the type of narc he is he either already has some clue as to what he is and doesn’t care, or he will never acknowledge that he is the abuser because that will make him a “bad” person which he will never accept.

      1. Catherine says:


        You’re right of course. My narcissist is the kind of person who will never acknowledge that he’s an abuser at all because that would make everything he tells himself about himself and the world around him topple to the ground. He knows people have problems with his agression, his erratic impulsive behaviour and his manipulative ways, but hey, he’s the good guy trying to protect himself in this bad, bad world and he’s not responsible for anything. It’s tragic really.

        And I do realise that sending that kind of letter exposing him would be a waste of time, because his reality is not mine, and it would fuel him in each and every way. You’re right about that too. If I do send it it would only be for my sake. I didn’t have a voice in our relationship, I lost myself and my right to express my feelings, he made me into a mute doll, an extension of himself and I closed my eyes to all the abuse for such a long time. I just guess I would feel better voicing my opinion, having the last say, and I would not wait for any response from him; I’d block him straight away again. I have this deep urge to make it all about me now.

        1. Jenna says:

          Hi catherine,

          “… he made me into a mute doll… ”

          I’m really sorry to hear this. I can relate somewhat. I used to b quiet in order to keep the peace, but i later started challenging him and questioning him abt his future faking etc. It felt good when i finally spoke up.

        2. Sarabella says:


          That is one reason I would send it. As long as you do it out of taking your voice back and not at all with any faint hope that he will go, “Oh gosh! I am sorry for what I did.” My narc thinks he is squeezey clean, too. Except he threw in enough tells for me to know that he knows he caused it all.

          And so I made damn sure in out last communication that I condiser it all HIS fault. At some point, we have to be the narc and absolve ourselves of every bit of responsibility and project all of the blame on them. And it feels way better. Just make sure you are dead clear that the letter will not result in any change. So write your cold, heartless, letter (no emotion) , take your voice back, and then close up that chapter forever as far as further communication. The healing will continue of course!

      2. Catherine says:


        Thank you for understanding. It’s great that you’ve managed to speak up; I felt eroded as a human being in the end; and even though I tried to assert myself in other ways I never told him what he did to me. It still makes me feel like a victim somehow.

        1. Jenna says:



          How abt we look at it this way? Had u spoken up, he wudn’t get it anyways. So in a way, u saved ur energy. The saving of energy towards someone undeserving is itself a way towards freedom and acceptance of him being worthless. Thus, u can still feel victorious rather than a victim.

      3. Catherine says:


        You’re right. That’s another way of looking at it. I saved my energy on something that would’ve been useless anyway. On the other hand if I had asserted myself earlier on I guess I would have been spared lots of pain and precious time of my life. I regret that. Because my ex wouldn’t ever have been able to have a relationship with a woman who asserted herself and confronted him with his controlling and viscous behaviour. Probably that kind of a woman wouldn’t have spent her energies on him at all either; she would have seen through his superficial charisma and ascertained early on that there was something really odd about him. Since I’m not that kind of a woman I guess there’s really no use of thinking that way afterwards though.

    3. Tappan Zee says:

      (I won’t ever trust myself to see him in person because I do know the kind of power he wields over me)

      ^100% ditto! Also. You can write a letter to him and HG will post it if it’s still a thing. Many of us did. I found it very useful to shed skin. Also to receive feedback and one day HG will post his take. A thought, xx,

      1. Catherine says:


        thank you for your kind thoughts. I appreciate your posts a lot!

        I did write a letter to HG, but I guess I realise now that it wouldn’t be the one I would write to my narcissist in the far off future when some more time has passed. Or rather it wouldn’t be the only one (not that I’m contemplating being pen friends with him ha, ha..).

        The letter I sent to HG was maybe in some sense overly romantic, but it still expresses my innermost feelings for what I went through and the process of personal growth I hope to bring with me from this experience. Like many of us here I have lots of issues from the past. I was conditioned to an addiction to pain early on and I did fit perfectly into the dynamic of the narcissistic puzzle. He unknowingly taught me some hard lessons about myself and I do hope that in the future I might even be grateful for that.

        But this other letter would not be about that I guess. I just want to tell him that he’s a lowlife abuser and by doing that in a very controlled, objective, non emotional manner get my say finally. But it’s all a process I guess and I won’t know how I feel about it in the future or which version of the truth I will need to express. Hopefully none. NC is my path now.

      2. ava101 says:

        I wrote my exnarc everything I possibly could, what I ever had on my mind in regard to him.
        Mostly before I knew HG’s material, and over the course of some time.
        We always exchanged loads of e-mails, so that was kind of a natural way for me.

        I also told im person earlier on how I felt about him being a narc and being abusive, and also showed him so the last times I saw him, as I was done with his ways for good.

        I also learnt with time (before knowing this blog) to block him or leave him sitting in a restaurant by himself, whenever he crossed the line. He learned to be a tiny little bit to be more respectful and nicer. 😉 But never for long.

        Aside from that, with e-mails it ended a lot of times with a agreeing not to write each other anymore. 😉
        And I frustrated the hell out of him, too.

        After knowing HG’s blog, and gaining more insight, I contacted him once more and told him what I thought about him then, too, because I had some questions. And because I wanted to know how he would react when I called him out.

        Of course he never gave straight, honest answers, but he also didn’t get fuel from me, or not much anyways, and I didn’t fall for his manipulations and lies, he therefore wanted to end the mail contact again himself after some exchange. 😉 I got my answers from reading between the lines though, everything I needed to know, as I know him rather well. Also more by watching his reactions.

        In short: he never admitted to being abusive or being a narc, never cared about what he did to me, or the effect he had on me. He might have gotten some fuel back then from my mails – that’s okay for me. But I for my part am glad to have told him everything and what I think of him. I told him some things wich were certainly not nice or kind of loving at all. I also wrote him one good-bye e-mail which was designed to be destructive. He stayed away after that one for a year.

        I am glad that he knows that I have the worst opinion and picture of him possible. Might be lost on him, the effect of any e-mails was zero, it didn’t change a thing, and I never got any kind of apology or sign of remorse (or very conditional ones), but it makes me feel better … I don’t regret that he knows what I think.

      3. Catherine says:


        That’s exactly what I’m going for as well. Good for you! Knowing that I did at least tell him my perspective on us could be my closure. He was always really easily wounded by people criticising him of course, and this kind of letter if phrased the right way certainly would have some kind of effect. Or maybe it’ll only be fuel anyway, but it’s not of any concern to me.

        I do know that he will read it meticulously, word by word. He’s a complete control freak and there’s no way he would just delete it. Probably he wouldn’t even answer like yours did though, he needs to exert absolute power in any given situation and that would be done by ignoring me, planning his revenge carefully. He never responded to anything in the past when we were together, but in a sadistic manner he would punish me emotionally days or even months later, making sure I knew what it was all about. But I don’t know what he could do to me now anyway, and this one’ll be for me. The end of it all.

        I’m glad to hear that you feel better after having your say. In the end that’s what’s important.

      4. ava101 says:

        Thank you, Catherine.

        If you are sure as well that he can’t do any harm after reading it, then I see no reason not to send it, even if fuel. But you know now how to phrase it to give him minimum fuel.

        My exnarc is not physically violent and no stalker, I’ve also removed myself from our circle of mutual aquaintances. Therefore I was sure that any attacks from his side would be in written form.

      5. Catherine says:


        Thank you for your kind advice. Sorry that I didn’t reply earlier; I lost track of all the postings here.

        My ex was physically violent and that’s the only thing I need to consider carefully if I do write that letter. I don’t think he would risk his official reputation to do me anymore harm; but then I guess I never thought he would abuse me violently either.

    4. HG,

      Will you be posting more “Letters to the Narc”?

      1. HG Tudor says:


    5. C says:

      If you understand what a narc is, there is no need for closure. Closure is for real relationships. You basically had a relationship with a robot, which renders closure and revenge obsolete. If you think they will ever give you a satisfactory answer about anything, you’re basically waiting for a ship at an airport. I didn’t know what I was even dealing with and I dumped the guy after the first “silent treatment”. He never even made it to the devaluation stage. I kept thinking “I’m only 60% sure this man is irretrievably messed up, but I’m 100% sure he’s an arsehole”. That’s all I needed. Just go cold turkey until the adrenaline and brain chemicals stabilize and then learn about boundaries and self care. I know it’s hard, but you must accept that it’s something you HAVE to do. Good luck. PS I wrote several letters only for my own eyes. Why bother aggravating someone so dangerous and twisted? People without empathy are capable of anythIng. And since you are still so fragile, it’s akin to antagonizing the warden while you’re still in jail. Zip it. Vent to people with actual human qualities and don’t waste a word on the narc. You got this!!

  17. Reba says:

    No Contact is unrealistic for many situations. What if you are divorcing your narc with whom you have children? The court will want to see that you play nice–be polite and responsive to each other, don’t do anything to alienate the children etc. all the things you would do if your STBE was a normal person. Are there posts which talk about how you can handle your narc in those situations?

    1. HG Tudor says:

      Hello Reba, No Contact is what should always be aimed for. It is always an option but I acknowledge that in some instances it is a straightforward option and in other instances a very difficult option, yet an option nevertheless. I pointed some of this out in yesterdays’ article The Wrong No Contact.

      If a court orders co-parenting you still have an option to go no contact although it will work in a different way as you may end up in prison, thus it remains an option but not an attractive one. What I am endeavouring to do is to get people to see where their emotional thinking is keeping them from implementing no contact and working through that. It is cultivating an approach of aiming high to achieve no contact. I accept some situations are harder and one involving co-parenting is probably the most problematic. There are ways to handle the narcissist though in those situations – see The Wrong No Contact, Save the Children and there will be a complete book dedicated to the topic. I can also assist you through a consultation if that is of interest.

      1. Reba says:

        Thanks HG. I guess the difference here is that this isn’t contact based on emotional reasoning, it is strategic contact in order to get a leg up on the narc as far as all of the issues in the divorce, including custody. It does have the side effect of giving my narc fuel though. In a way don’t I want that? If he is broken and can’t work, guess who has to pay him support? But it is a balancing act–I want him well enough to work (or, more correctly, for a court to find he is well enough to work and support himself and his children) but not so fuelled as to be able to take a serious run at me in the proceedings because right now I have greater resources, both financial and emotional, than he does. I should add that my guy is a mid-ranger, full of false mea culpas and blame-shifting with a fairly limited support network.

        I look forward to your book on how to deal with a narc in similar situations. I read The Wrong No Contact which was helpful and will read Save the Children. I read your book “Revenge” which was very helpful in identifying what motivates my STBE.

        1. HG Tudor says:

          Indeed Reba, there are situations where you are somewhat hamstrung because of finances. Now, some might argue that so long as you are away from an abusive narcissist then living on beans for a year is worth doing. Others may argue why should they suffer a diminution in their standard of living. There are various points on the spectrum which can be adopted, the important thing is to aim high and not fall for emotional thinking causing you to remain in contact unnecessarily. There is, as you state, a balancing act to be achieved, but that must be achieved through the lens of logic and not emotional thinking.

      2. HG,

        “There are ways to handle the narcissist though in those situations – see The Wrong No Contact, Save the Children and there will be a complete book dedicated to the topic.”

        Thank you for working on this very important subject.


        I would suggest the consult. It would get to the information you need quickly, and custom tailored to your situation. Everyone who has mentioned that they have had a consult have been very satisfied.


  18. Karen says:

    I had to break NC with my x Narc because he wouldn’t sign the divorce papers. I was 8 1/2 months NC. Made me mad at myself! Just wanted my divorce over and he kept stalling it. Six days after I fired my attorney, the divorce was final!

  19. rinarcblog says:

    The Narc I was seeing couldn’t get my attention if his life depended on it. I dumped his weird ass.

  20. Gabrielle says:

    My mid range cerebral has been ignoring me for weeks. My “emotional thinking” ran rampant today and I texted him. I told him he is cruel and hurtful for ignoring me and then I accused him of never giving a shit about me and that he used me as a fling and a warm mouth for his dick. He replied to tell me that as “very fucked up” for me to say and that it was not true. Yet last month he told me I was a fling!

    It is nice to know it is STILL Narc Opposite day.

    He told me that the reason he does not talk to me is because I “stress him out”. He also mentioned his guilt and shame (again) and then said “I should not be talking to you, it is wrong of me to talk to you”. and then said it is wrong to talk to me because of:

    1. My obsession with him.
    2. Our inappropriate behavior
    3. His guilt and shame.

    And then…. “I won’t block you because I care about you” (EYE ROLL)

    He also told me that that I filter out what he tells me and that I try too hard to reconcile what he says vs. what happens.

    And then he said “I know what I say is often contradictory, I won’t deny that”


    1. Blank says:

      Gab, it’s actually really simple. You are his DLS right?

      He will not leave his IPPS
      He likes to fuck you, because his wife/IPPS knows he’s an asshole and therefore does not want to fuck with him anymore.
      He knows it’s not okay to cheat.
      So he tries to stay away from you
      You make it difficult for him to be faithful by texting him
      He’s not gonna leave her
      He’s not gonna leave her
      He’s not gonna leave her
      No good ending to the story
      The hurt keeps going on
      Your headache will stay
      It’s your choice, to be hurt or to be happy
      If you want this to end
      You go no contact.
      You cry, you cry, you cry more
      You keep the hurt, the anxiety and the headache in mind, always!
      You buy yourself some good sextoys
      You stay no contact!
      You stay no contact!
      You stay no contact!
      The dope disappears from your brain
      You are free of hurt & anxiety
      You will feel happy and relaxed again
      You find yourself a new man, preferably a single, unless you want the shit all over again
      You live happily ever after.

      Free advise Gab.Take care xx

      1. HG Tudor says:

        Saved me a job.

        1. K says:

          Ha ha ha …

          1. gabbanzobean says:

            Yes let’s all laugh at HG’s comment to me.

            Thank you so very much.


            Y’all make NC look SO easy. Well good for you. I admire your strength. Keep up the laughs.


          2. PhoenixRising says:

            Gabbanzobean- I can tell you NC is so incredibly not easy for me. It’s tough, so very tough. I have mentioned before that I blocked my narc on social media. I originally did it because I was just getting so pissed off at knowing that he was looking at it but still acting like I didn’t exist (I know because he told me so last time I saw him, and a certain feature on one site alllows you to see who has viewed that feature). It was causing me more hurt, so I figured if I just blocked him, it would keep me from looking at his posts and being hurt and from knowing he was keeping tabs on me. Well you know what, it didn’t take but the passing of a few days for me to regret what I had done. In fact there are times when I feel like I am in more pain now than I was before I blocked him. Because if I were to be completely honest, I do miss him and would want to accept him back in my life. By shutting those doors, I know it’s no longer a possibility. My brain knows he’s a ginormous asshole who is just going to continue to treat me like shit. My brain knows he doesn’t deserve my time, thoughts, or energy, but my heart is sabotaging it every step of the way. I know I need to walk away in order to heal and be whole again. I know it’s the right thing to do, and as is usually the case, it’s also the hardest.
            I wish you so much luck in taking the next step forward. You deserve to be more than someone’s DLS. You don’t need this wolf in sheep’s clothing, this “perfect Christian” piano mine, just like I don’t need mine. It’s time to accept that you are worth more than that. Fight the good fight.

          3. K says:

            I was laughing at HG’s comment. When you have a moment take a look at it from a practical standpoint (remove the emotion) and try to see why I found the humor in his comment and maybe you might find the humor in it, too.

      2. sarabella says:

        LOL HG!!!!

        Curl up in a ball for 4 weeks straight and read here. And digest just how badly you are being used and just let yourself be profoundly HURT. And it will go away. I never ever thought it would. It really will.

        This is what I did. I finally had to get out of my head and out of my protestations and just dive into the utter pain he caused me. I mean I allowed myself every flow of hurt in my body and it was immense. I even at one point, imagined myself a hurt deer which would find a thicket somewhere, lie down and be with the pain. No more running, no more why, what if, how come…. After a month of doing this, I finally started to get resolve.

        And it’s his birthday today and you should read some of the public postings about him. Open messages of utter love and admiration for him. The pain this brought up again was why me. Why hoover after 30 years and repeat exactly what he had done? What an utter SHITHEAD to do that. Replaced the hurt…. LEt him enjoy his online fan club, but I know the truth. Any of those women would eventually be treated the same. Its not a case of would they but how soon.

        You have to first really know that it will never, ever change. This is going to be the dynamic forever. There is no growth here for you. There is no time he will eventually snap out of it. He is a huge cake eater and he is eating you up. Being alone and unloved is nothing compared to the hurt of being ‘loved’ by one of these freaks (sorry HG).

      3. Sarabella says:

        No, no one was laughing at YOU. They were likely laughing at themselves. That sad self mockery laugh. Anyone her KNOED NC is hell. If they don’t, they weren’t ever fully ensnared by a narc. Don’t leave. It took me 3-4 years to accept what he did to me. And like many, if you only knew the struggle I went through to get to where I am. It is pure emotional hell. These severely disordered people make ones self disordered. You are faced with facing the truth, with extricating yourself, with healing the the hurt, repairing losses on so many levels, questionin the meaning of life, tearing apart your entire life and childhood, massive navel gazing and more

        NOTHING is easy about it. Not one dman thing.

      4. narc affair says:

        (((Gabs)))…im definitely not laughing i feel your pain. No contact is not easy at all and believe me ive told my story so often i feel like a broken record. Its different for everyone and some people have an easier time of it. Youre definitely not alone in how you feel 💓

      5. Blank says:

        Gaby, please don’t be mad, sad or offended. No one is laughing at you. Trust me on that one. I never meant to say going no contact is easy (did I not mention the ‘cry, cry, cry’?). I meant to say that the steps you need to take to get out of this hurt can be explained in a very simpel way. I was the DLS of a narc-boss for 3 years (when I was young). I am an HSP, I can literally feel your pain. The pain of wanting him, but never having him for real, the pain of being used, the pain of knowing there is no future together, the pain of going no contact and not get closure, because you never get (honest) answers from a narc, etc.
        The reason for me preaching here, besides having spent way too much time in church when living with my parents, is that I look back on my life now and want to hit myself on the head for wasting so many years of my life – the best years that is – staying in unloving relationships. You are so gonna regret it later. You could be happy, but you stick with the hurt. And believe me, the hurt of going no contact and go through the pain that comes with it, is a far shorter period of pain, than you will have to endure staying with the narc.
        You do not attend this website to learn how to play the guitar or how to make chocolate cupcakes. HG teaches you every ‘what’, ‘why’ and ‘how’. Take notice of it Gab, learn how to stay away and heal.
        When I found out about narcissism (going from a psychology- and HSP website to Mr. Tudor’s) and read the narc’s side of the story, I really had all the answers I needed. I understood I would never be loved by any narc, I would only be hurt for ever. I divorced my husband (we lived seperately for 3 years already) and I went no contact with the boyfriend narc. Do I miss him? For sure, but I do not even know what there is to miss, but the fantasy really.The addiction to the dope is gone, it makes you more relaxed and capable to deal with staying no contact for ever.
        Once you really have gone full no contact and distract yourself, you will see that it is not so hard as you imagined. That is, if you keep in mind the hurt, the anxiety and the knowledge that the narc never loved you in the first place. Go spend some fun time with friends, attend the on-line fanclub of your favourite band, count the ants in your backyard, do anything that gets your mind off the narc. Just forget him. Be strong Gab, it hurts, but I could do it, many women here did it, so you can do it as well. I give you a big hug. Take care! xx

        PS: I will be gone for a few days and not read anything here (just to let you know in case you’d respond).

      6. Catherine says:


        I’m sure no one is laughing at you and that it’s all well meant. NC is the hardest thing ever, it’s turning your life upside down; forcing yourself to go against all your emotional instincts and facing all your demons; it hurts so bad and there are numerous setbacks along the way. I’m still in the beginning of this journey and it’s pure hell a lot of the times. In a way you have to reach a point where NC is the only possible way to move forward, the only way to protect yourself and save yourself. I know I was aware of the abuse in my relationship and it had to come to a complete breaking point before I was able to realise I had to purge him from my life. The breaking point will differ for all of us, but will surely come.

        These kind of men don’t change, there’s like Blank says no good ending to this story except the one where you walk away. Don’t waste your precious life on a one dimensional relationship. You deserve so much better. Make it all about you. Not him.

      7. ANK says:


        You are in a lot of pain. I understand what you are going through and how hard it is for you , trust me – our situations are similar. Please note that we all care about you.

        As for laughing at HG’s comment – his comment was not to you, but to Blank meaning he would have given the same advice. And K was just laughing at HG’s comment.

      8. K says:

        Thanks ANK! And Gabs, I suck at N/C too. HG called me out on it and he was correct to do so, and others are coming out of the N/C closet and owning up to it, too.

      9. Blank says:

        Gabbanzobean, Sarabella e.o.,

        I wrote like a whole bible-chapter early yesterday morning to explain things, but it somehow disappeared right away, not even awaiting moderation. Have no idea what happened, but I did not have the time to write it all over again.
        I’d like to explain “briefly” now:

        -I absolutely did not mean to make fun of Gabby
        -I do not think anyone makes fun of other women’s pain and struggle here, we’ve all been there or are still in it
        -Humor and sarcasm are for me a way to deal with all the crap and hurt, I use it often, but I never mean to hurt anyone
        -The word ‘simple’ does not equal the word ‘easy’ (see your dictionary)
        -With ‘simple’ I meant that the steps to take to get out of this relationship can be explained in a simple way.
        -I never said going no contact is easy (I mentioned the cry, cry, cry, didn’t I?). And mg do I know the pain
        -With my last narc I went no contact at least 10 times and he always managed to pull me back in with his pity play (didn’t mean it, miss you so much, what’s life without you and every time I was dying to go back, wishing what he said was true)

        I really want to add this:
        When being with the last narc (living seperated from narc-husband) and trying to figure out what was going on, why all this kick-me-away-pull-me-back-in-shit, on Twitter I continuously got to see articles on narcissism. That’s how I found out what was going on. It was a very, very shocking moment. Even more shocking to suddenly realize and know for sure, that my husband, as well as my mother, uncles and ex-boss were narcs. (I was the DLS to this boss).
        I ended up here at Mr. Tudors website. Once I fully understood the whole narcissism disorder I filed for divorce and went no contact (for good) with boyfriend narc. There was never love in the first place and there was never going to be love ever.
        Believe me, I know how hard it is to go no contact and go through all the pain, but once you have read everything on HG’s website, tell me,

        Why on earth would anyone stay with the narcissist??
        Do you not get the message?
        Do you enjoy the pain?

        There is NO LOVE (it’s only in your mind), there is only hurt.
        Stop going around in circles, stop all the mind-fuck.
        You do not want to look back on your life and realize you’ve wasted the best years of it trying to make a narc love you.
        Just get out!

        I did get out, but I do not want to keep going on telling everyone here how good it feels to have a clear mind and to be relaxed and happy again. It’s true though, it is the best feeling I’ve had in many, many years. Do I not miss the narcs? Sure, I miss the fantasy I had about them, but not their actual words and actions, the hurt and the neglect. I love them (for some reason my mind always resets to the love-mode) but I can’t be with them. It’s nice to have this community here and dicuss matters. Unfortunately, we can not be real friends, since we’re all anonymous here, so I’m going to spend more time with my real friends now. I’m gonna leave this website and truly hope you all manage to end your relationships with the narcs, to go no contact, cry, heal and have a good narc-free-life and a happy future.
        I can not thank you enough HG, your work really has been so meaningful and helpfull to me. I know I said goodbye 2 times before, but hey, you know your girls do come back a few times 🙂 Farewell!

        1. HG Tudor says:

          You are welcome.

        2. K says:

          I didn’t think you made fun of Gabs or make light of anyone’s pain and I agreed with everything you wrote.

        3. K says:

          It is difficult to go no contact with HG. Hopefully you will be hoovered back in and we will see you again.

          1. HG Tudor says:

            Reverse hoovers only, K!

        4. Sarabella says:


          I never thought your words were intentionally hurtful. A bit flippant and ill timed for Garb, perhaps. Its always easier to be lighter about things when its not one’s own life and one has passed the worst of it.

          I wouldn’t say it’s simple or easy. The steps to escape are straightforward. But never simple or easy. As I described, my experience was a catalyst for me to revaluate my childhood from a whole knew angle and I have been in therapy before. And suddenly, my mother was reframed. And that was not simple. Extricating oneself follows similar steps for all, but there is nothing simple or easy about doing the hard work of why and fixing things in one’s head, especially to prevent it from happening again.

          I am never going to speak with him ever again. He is a violent and destructive ugly being inside and there is no returning to when he was trying to pull me in. That pull was what people do when they genuinely want a relationship. In his case, it was just to hook me and he then pushed away.

          People have it all wrong. A push pull relationship is not between two people. I think it is a dynamic manifesting predominately in one person. The other learns to just react over time and over time often. Before I had the definition of narcissist and this was before HG, I was already reacting. And it was reacting to get away even though I didn’t see that is what I was doing at the time.

          Even if he is in my head alot, I remind myself how I was in fact, trying to get away from him and break the cord between us. I just had needed all of the pieces of how it all happened to get stronger and to know how and what to do.

          I am doing well. Healthy, happy. I just have moments when I slip into a dream state and that is when I get confused even now at times. But as long as I stay in my head and stick to the facts, I am fine.

          It never helped when people told me I was wasting my life and heart and time because the wounds he inflicted were deep and their very presence are what kept him there. There was no other way to remove him other than through it all. And that was my own private journey and not for anyone to judge me on or decide how I was doing it wrong or even, to speak frankly on the situation unless I asked them to. And I found plenty of people willing to take that role but meanwhile, they had their own fucked up life issues which I stayed out of as I found, I was a better friend to most of them than they would ever be to me.

      10. Twilight says:


        NC is hell, you have a choice and one that may take a few times repeating over and over before you Master it. Controlling your emotional thinking. For myself I do not speak much about my ex and this is because the more I speak of him the more he is on my mind, the memories flood me and then the emotion connected to them. To which reinforces the bond I have with him.
        Missing the feeling and missing them are two different things and sadly just as HG describe in LoveSex how they combine love with sex, we do this with our memories and feelings we combined them and tell ourselves we miss them when in fact we miss the feeling. Our drug of choice.
        The body knows this action brings a feeling of pleasure or power and subconsciously we will do what is needed to get this feeling, I believe even the torturous feelings we put ourselves through we become addicted to, to.

        1. MLA - Clarece says:

          Hi Twilight! NC is hell. No lie.
          There is a whole separate layer of hell when an individual does not want to go NC and is constantly seeking to re-establish contact and in denial by the whole fog and addiction of the relationship.

          1. Twilight says:

            Hello Clarece

            Yes it is

            IMO overthinking is the root cause. It triggers a fear that goes into overtime
            You add imagination, anticipation, memories and to top things off emotion. Walla you have just created a specially made hell specifically designed for yourself. Instead of going the simplest route and letting things be.
            Emotions come and go just like the waves, wind and the rain. It is ok to feel them, acknowledge them and move through them, it is when we hold on to them start to why or what if. We become our worst enemy.
            We search for answers and HG has made it very plain…..they are narcissists, it is acceptance at this point that drives this emotional thinking IMO.

      11. Blank says:

        Thank you K. That is kind of you.
        Never say never, but I don’t think I’ll be back again (I can hear some people sigh of relief now :)). I’ll honestly miss reading HG’s stories and all the comments to it, but I found myself spending way too much time here, neglecting other duties and I really want to move on now and away from all the narc-business.
        Take care! xx

        1. K says:

          Hello Blank
          I enjoyed reading your comments and I will miss you. You can always read, without commenting, so you don’t miss HG’s articles, however, I understand if you are ready to move on. Maybe you can visit again in the future. Thank you for commenting and take care!

      12. Annie says:

        Hey Gbean,

        No one is saying that this is easy. But having been on both sides (frantically chasing my narc to understand how he could just end things so abruptly and then going NC for my own sanity), looking back 11 years later, the fact that I ended it for me on my terms makes my initial reactions more palatable. Eleven years ago – before HG and all of these internet discussions of narcissism – I was engaged with what I now believe was some sort of midrange Elite. The chemistry was off the charts, and he rocked my world – introduced me to so many new things in all areas of my life, and for the first time I realized what SEX WAS! I had that golden golden golden period for 1 year, and I honestly thought we would be together. He ended it abruptly, and like you, I couldn’t comprehend that he would want that to end. I continued to contact him and see him and lived off of his crumbs (he said he needed a break and constantly told me that “maybe” we would get back together in the future). I spent his birthday with him and made him some wonderful present (pat on the back for me), and then I surprised him at the airport with flowers (I knew he was traveling and thought it would be a nice surprise for him to see me). Well, it was– for me, when I discovered another woman waiting to pick him up. He offered up some explanation, and I of course bought into it and continued to interact and try all sorts of things. He offered fewer and fewer crumbs, and when I would get frustrated and call him out on things, he would get angry and stop talking. I started seeing a shrink, who, bless his heart, did say that he suspected that this guy had some narcissistic tendencies, but I couldn’t internalize that – I wanted to assume all of the blame. It was my fault, I could do more. But then my birthday came, and he didn’t even so much as email. I remember being super hurt and pissed and saying something (which he likely projected back to me), and soon after, something switched in me. I realized that I was the only one trying, I was all alone, precariously perched on this limb, and he was living his life. I WAS STUCK ON HOPE. And there were too many lies, and even if we would get back together, it would never be like it was. He ruined it. I gave it my all, and he ruined it. So I made the choice and never contacted him again. And I imagine it was very difficult in the beginning (I don’t really remember all of the details, but there was much crying). A year later, I was one month into a very brief but sweet email exchange with a guy I had a thing for in my formative years, but it never materialized. It was my birthday, and this new guy went out of the way to do something really sweet. Well this year the narc remembered my birthday with a “Happy Birthday” email. Really, that was it, and the coming together of those two events, one guy really going out of his way to do something nice and the narc barely lifting his finger, reminded me I made the right decision. I did’t want someone who didn’t really want me. He hoovered one more time, about 6 or 7 years ago when he wanted to connect to me through linkedin, which I ended up accepting, but there was no talking at all. I know he has since married and has a child, which if I were still emotionally infected would really upset me. But I too have moved on, and it was only since my new narc, that I even thought about him, and with the old guy, thankfully, there is only indifference -and some very hot memories that I can enjoy by myself to keep me warm.

        Now, the new narc is another story. What brought me here is the midrange cerebral pussy. My life circumstances have changed, and he is married, so I thought it was going to be a fling because there is such an intensity when we are together. But he can’t even do that right, and in the bedroom he is so incompetent (and of course he can’t have actual sex because he loves his wife (sound familiar?) – not that I have even suggested I wanted that, what with the challenges he had with digital penetration and getting it up). I am at a loss for why I still interact other than I am emotionally infected. One day I will have to write my story down here so that I can get Jenna’s translation, too. I imagine that it would be very similar to what she wrote for you. But alas I am still emotionally infected and can’t see the forest for the trees.

        This is way too long, so I will summarize: based on what HG has said and everyone else’s stories, you know, 1) this will end; 2) it will hurt; 3) it will feel much better in the long run if you end it on your terms by going NC; 4) the last thing you want is to be here a year from now feeling the same way or worse; and 5) it is easier for us outsiders to see what a piece of shit this guy is. I am in the same place. Know that I’ll be working on this, too. Best of luck!

        One more thing. HG has repeatedly told targets that it is not our fault. These are very powerful and compassionate words coming from a narcissist. Stop blaming yourself…you did nothing to drive him away. It was all planned from the first day.

        1. HG Tudor says:

          Thank you Annie. My words re fault are purely factual not compassionate but if you wish to regard them that way, then so long as you pay heed to them, then that is fair enough.

        2. Jenna says:

          Hi annie,

          I’m sorry u r etangled w a narc again. I hope u can find the strength to see him for what he is soon.

          Ur story abt the first narc will give many of us further strength. I am so glad u have moved on frm that, as painful as it is.
          Ty for sharing ur story.

      13. Catherine says:


        I understood you perfectly and I agree with everything you said to Gabs. NC is the only way to go; it’s excruciatingly painful and it’s pure hell and we all mess it up and have to start anew, but it’s the path that leads to personal insight and the prospect of a truer kind of love along the line. We have to try again and again, giving it our all. Everything else is a waste of precious time, precious life led in the shadows of an abusive dynamic that will never fulfill us in any possible way.

        I’m struggling with my emotional thinking right now. I’ve been feeling much more calm the last month or so, thinking more logically and managing by and large to look at my experience from the vantage point of all the knowledge I’ve gained lately from HG.

        Then the other day I went for dinner with an old male friend whom I haven’t seen for ages because my over the top jealous narcissist wouldn’t let me keep him in my life; and I had to tell him my story, why I disappeared; he knew some of it, but I felt the need to sincerely explain it all and apologise. Being the wonderful friend he is he understood. But I guess then and there I broke NC, because I started to think about my narcissist in an emotional way again, being transported in my mind back to all the anxiety, confusion and desperation I felt then. The mindset of being a victim returned and the last few days I’ve had to battle my emotional thoughts of contacting him again. I haven’t contacted him, but it’s almost unbearable sometimes. It’s so easy to fall apart time after time.

        Anyway, sorry for making it about me again;) I will miss you here Blank. I understand you need to be in real life now, but I really enjoyed your honesty and reading all your posts. I wish you well and a narc free life with lots of happiness!

      14. Insatiable Learner says:

        So I decided to join in on the discussion here and, when I read Blank’s message to Gabs, it did come across to me as somewhat too harsh. The point is not that this message lacks truthfulness. It’s the tone of delivery. It is evident that Gabs is severely emotionally traumatized. Her emotions are raw. I think it would have been better received and made a greater impact on her if the message had been delivered in a more empathic way. I think being sensitive to another’s state of mind and emotions at the time of this delivery is important. Let us not allow what makes us empathic, caring, and, kind human beings to be lost in our pursuit of communicating the truth. Let’s communicate truth in love and kindness. We all need it, especially, after what we have been through with narcs who shred our hearts, our emotions, and our feelings. I have seen some really aggressive and harsh exchanges on here recently (I have been on this blog for over a year now) and it is of concern to me. Yes, this is a place to hear and learn the truth, but it is also a place to lift each other up, encourage and support each offer. Let us practice compassion and kindness!

        1. HG Tudor says:

          I disagree.

          Sugar-coating the issue is not going to help, indeed it will make it worse.

          Raw truth is required to jolt the individual into action. Raw truth is easily delivered in a straight forward manner which is dispassionate and without judgement on the victim.

          Some people only want to hear the answer which suits them. That will not help them move forward.

      15. Annie says:

        You’re welcome, HG. That your fault statement is factual is reassuring. That you choose to repeatedly share this truth with targets who are suffering is compassionate, like it or not HG. These words mean something different when delivered by you, as you live this truth, than when coming from an empath who can merely suspect this reality and never completely comprehend it.

      16. Annie says:

        Thanks, Jenna. You are so sweet. I hope my story can help. I have received tremendous help from the stories shared here in the comments and through the letters. I am also aware of how difficult it is – I lived through that first story, know what narcissists are capable of from that first narc and childhood wounds, and still am failing at maintaining NC with my current narc who in many many ways is different from the first (I barely know him, am long distance, and have gone through at least two corrective devaluations already – I don’t even know if I passed). While I am at the stage where I refuse to contact him first, much to my chagrin my traitorous heart still leaps when that message from him comes in, no matter how ridiculous it is (the last one was a lazy ‘hi’). I obviously have many issues and many days I question my own sanity.

      17. Blank,

        trying to find a spot to post so that it gets to you.
        I have enjoyed you sharing your experience and insight.
        Have a wonderful time IRL!!


    2. sarabella says:

      Sounds familiar. I heard he couldn’t take my ‘infatuation with him.” And my obsession. Both of which flared up after his abusive ugly behaviors after all the fake nice guy act. And that he has other worries and I am not one of them. So, it’s always one version or another of the same dismissive bullshit.

    3. Jenna says:


      I am sorry u r hurting. Pls hang in there. I know u can get thru this.

      Think of it this way: u r hurting now. Who is helping u? Is it hg and many of us here? Or is it piano man?

      Everyone means well, but different pple have different styles of delivery. I know that some styles of delivery don’t work on highly sensitive pple. So take the comments that resonate w you, and try to leave the comments that don’t. I’ve had to train myself to do this too.

      I’d like to point out a few things:

      “I shud not be talking to u” – notice ‘I’ meaning it’s all abt him, he calls the shots

      “You stress me out” – again, it’s all abt him

      “It is wrong of me to talk to u because of ur obsession w me” (i acknowledge it is wrong but i blame it on u, becoz YOU r obsessed)

      “It is wrong of me to talk to u because of my guilt and shame” (i acknowledge it is wrong and i am such a great person for having guilt and shame)

      “I won’t block u because i care abt u” (i won’t block u becoz i feel good when i see ur texts in which u long for me)

      “U filter out what i tell u” (projection – he filters out what YOU tell him)

      “U try too hard to reconcile what i say vs. what happens” (meaning DON’T u dare try to reconcile what i say vs what really happens or u’ll figure me out)

      “I know what i often say is contradictory, i won’t deny that”
      (I have just accepted fault for all my contradictions, so don’t blame me later)

      Remember, this is a person who admitted to sleeping with 30+ women. Imagine him doing what he did with you to 30+ other women. He will allow anyone to fellate him, basically (sorry it sounds crude but it is a reality). It makes no difference to him. If it made a difference to him, that it shud be exclusively u, he wud see u more often. He can call u frm work, on his drive to work, when he runs errands, anytime other than when he is at home. But he doesn’t. It’s because he doesn’t care nor does he have the time. He is bz calling the others, becoz there are only 24 hrs in a day right?

      He is not only cheating on his wife, he is cheating on u too. He is a serial cheater, and he doesn’t want to stop. He pretends he wants to stop, but he doesn’t, or he would have.

      Pls try to stay strong gabs. If this is not the devalue u need to cut him off, it will come soon. It only required a small provocation for such a huge reaction frm him. Imagine how he wud react if u continued on and on? He wud block u for sure. That’s why better to block him b4 he blocks u and hurts u more.

      Pls come back gabs. I am worried.

      1. HG Tudor says:

        Fair observations Jenna.

        1. Jenna says:

          Ty hg.

      2. Insatiable Learner says:

        This is great insight, Jenna!

        1. Jenna says:


          Ty. 💗

      3. Catherine says:


        your insight is invaluable and so true. You’re such a caring, sweet person. I just wanted to tell you that from reading your posts.

        1. Jenna says:



    4. Gabs,

      I wish he didn’t hurt you.
      I wish he didn’t make you feel good.
      I wish you didn’t feel anything for him.

      You would be a good match to a normal man who would actually love you.
      I actually think no normal single man would have a chance against you if you decided you wanted him. One look into those big beautiful brown loving eyes would melt any man.

      I wish you would be selfish with your love.
      You first.


  21. Insatiable Learner says:

    HG, so what about the situation where the narc tells the shelf DLS for space for him and his IPPS to deal with some personal issues and that he would reach out soon, obviously, there is no expectation on his part that the shelf DLS will contact him even if she wanted to because doing so would be non-compliant. This was 2 months ago and no word from him. Before this last contact initiated by me, by the way, it was 7-9 months of no contact at all. We have not seen each other since spring of 2016. He got this new IPPS in the spring of 2016. It really feels like I am not of any value or use to him any more and this is over, so there is no need to think about any of the no contact measures. What do you think about my situation? Thank you!

    1. HG Tudor says:

      Use the hiatus to establish a robust no contact and most of all to get your emotional infection purged and emotional thinking under control.

      1. Insatiable Learner says:

        Thank you, HG. I understand this. But back to my question about the likelihood of him contacting me again given the facts I laid out. I appreciate it! I also understand how the Hoover trigger and HEC operate. Since I was asked to wait for him to contact me, only 6th sphere would remain. So what is the likelihood of a hoover given the facts? Many thanks!

        1. HG Tudor says:

          If you enter sixth sphere there is a Hoover Trigger. The HEC depends on various factors at the time of the trigger.

      2. Insatiable Learner says:

        Thank you, HG! Sorry for hammering! I guess I am trying to figure out (1) the likelihood of the shelf DLS being taken off the shelf and
        (2) whether the passage of time matters. What do you think?

        1. HG Tudor says:

          It depends on the relevant variables in the dynamic.

      3. Insatiable Learner says:

        HG, what are these “relevant variables in the dynamic” other than the hoover trigger and HEC factors? As you know, the need to understand to my kind (empaths) is like the need for fuel to your kind. I know you always say it does not matter and knowing someone is a narcissist should be enough not to be concerned about anything else, and that our focus should be on emotional infection purging and defeating emotional thinking with logic. However, you also encourage us to ask you questions in our quest for understanding, so this is exactly what I am doing. Thank you again for being there and I would really appreciate it if you could expand on the “relevant variables.” Knowledge is power after all!

        1. HG Tudor says:

          See ‘It’s Hoover Time” and ‘Why Won’t He Leave Me Alone’.

      4. Insatiable Learner says:

        I will read again the articles you suggested. Thank you, HG!

      5. Insatiable Learner says:

        Sorry, HG! By the way, you did write elsewhere that passage of time does not matter and that there was no period of time for being on the shelf after which the shelved individual could conclude that they will not be taken off the shelf at all. Is this indeed accurate?

  22. Sunniva says:

    From reading your material I have understood that a NISS is easily discared from and replaced, and does not suffer the amount for hoover atempts like the IPSS(s) or IPPS.
    I have been no contact with the upper lesser since July, so in his mind I am a shelf NISS. Three weeks ago he officially announced (heard from third party) that he has a girlfriend. He has been smearing my name since, and last weekend he texted and called several times. I blocked his number, which resulted in him driving by my house and showing up at a presentation I held this week.
    My question is, of course, why? Is it because:
    1. He is keeping his assets under control?
    2. He believes, in his omnipotent world, that I might be interested, since we have had intermittently contact over the last five years?
    3. He attempts to promote me, since one of the IPSS’s now is the IPPS?

    I will maintain no contact, but it would be good to know what his aim is with this.

    1. HG Tudor says:

      1. Correct.
      2. Correct.
      3. Correct.

      1. Insatiable Learner says:

        HG, why would this guy in Sunniva’s situation who has a new IPPS (if he just announced a new girlfriend) be thinking about promoting someone to IPSS? Wouldn’t he now be in the golden period with the new IPPS and thus uninterested in anyone else romantically or does this mean he is already devaluing her? Just want to understand. Thank you!

        1. HG Tudor says:

          She may not be the new IPPS.

  23. PhoenixRising says:

    I am guilty of committing no contact suicide four times since going no contact this summer- all in the name of closure. Ugh. The first time was by pm on social media, second was in person, 3rd and 4th were texts. He didn’t have to directly hoover me at all, I did all the work for him. Of course I got no answers and no closure, just future faking, confusion, and silence (last two times). I am still actively battling my emotional thinking. I was doing well with it until seing him in person. That was a huge mistake. He played the love bit and future faked me yet again. Threw me right back into the emotional sea. Now I am trying to claw my way to dry land again.

    1. PureRage says:


      i have been doing no contact suicide so many times that i have lost the count..
      every time i think of myself sure of my escape the more he “ups the ante” with grand hoover, future faking.. repantance faking… crocodiles tears… and uses all the weapons of his greater narcissisms arsenal..
      and the wounds inflicted on my soul are getting deeper…and deeper….
      i hope you will not be chained up like me…
      please run………..

      1. PhoenixRising says:

        Pure Rage- thank you. I am running. Thankfully I have a people in my life who don’t sugarcoat anything and have been reminding me exactly what he is. It helps to have that validation of the truth when my emotional thinking wants to take over. I hope you are able to break free of your chains once and for all soon!!

  24. K says:

    Guilty of #s 2 & 5. Although I want my MMRN’s head on a pike, I am making an effort to learn indifference. I will work on #5. Please, keep in mind that I live next door to his IPPS (that fucking little turd) and that is ever presence that I have to work through. It is not an excuse, just an explanation. I ignored the amazon gift card/milk/coffee proxy hoovers; the dentist hoover I responded to with one word: “Ok.”

  25. Gareth says:

    Hi HG, in my experience of being disengaged from and the no contact they use, blocking and so forth they use the child. When I would e mail (the only way to contact her) to ask about seeing my son I would get a response that I was a terrible father and she would contact the police. I was a unfit father to see him. This has happened twice now. Whenever they go no contact it’s not just them it’s with the child to. I’m sure this is done as some kind of twisted punishment but I’m not really sure of the logic behind such behavior?

    1. HG Tudor says:

      Hello Gareth, you appear to be referring to the narcissist going no contact, yes? Whilst strictly speaking a narcissist may well do this, I don’t refer to such an act as ‘no contact’ to avoid confusion. ‘No contact’ is the act of the victim, not the narcissist. Not responding to you as the victim is a silent treatment or disengagement dependent on the circumstances. Her logic in doing this is to provoke a reaction from you, monopolise your child and pain a picture to others of your being unfit by smearing you.

  26. Holly Mead says:

    Day 3 of No Contact…

    From the constant reading of this blog I have learned that it is indeed my emotional thinking that sits on my shoulder urging me on to check out his social media.

    The voice gets louder each day.

    But thankfully, my intellect has learned to fight back…There is no point because “When you know, You got to go.”

    So far so good….

    1. sarabella says:

      The emotional will wane. I still check. No communication in 8 months. I will never, ever break contact. But I do still look. But its become a habit now, not driven by any real emotions anymore. Before, it was a compulsive behavior driven out of severe anger, disbelief, pain and rage. And that is when I got in the habit. Also, because I thought there was something between us, something ‘real’ and hadn’t yet made peace with the fact that the only thing between us was lies. So I would look, trying to look for proof that would validate my bad feelings and why. Basically, trying to find out just how bad he really was. So even though I don’t care to have anything to do with him anymore, the habit is there. I think, just talking this out, that I will make it a goal to fully break the habit as a New Year’s resolution.

      1. sarabella says:

        And when I mean break contact, I will never text, email or speak with him again. Looking harms me only but he may never even know I still do this if I never contact him. If I don’t, he will eventually, based on something he told me one, see that I did cut him out of my life and cut off communication.

      2. H. says:

        You said it so well. I became obsessed with proving what I felt was happening in my gut. It took me awhile, but I did find it. But it started that bad hoover habit of my own. Like you have said, it seems to be a habit. I did a little hoover today. It was not the same, I have plugged every hole, he can’t get to me, I didn’t feel the intense interest. I am not sure why I even think about him. It’s not like he was good to me. This emotional infection is really freaky. But I am on the mend. Tomorrow is my birthday…and day 4 of No Contact….it will be a good day.

      3. C says:

        I found that thinking of them as an actual robot helps a lot. It has no feelings, nothing it does or says is based in our reality, and I think it’s even a projection to refer to us as “appliances” when the narcs are the ones who are completely hollow and inhuman. This game goes both ways. Once you make that paradigm shift, all curiosity leaves you. Would you respond to a bots message in your email? Would you look at a bots social media profile? Would you take a phone call or a text from a robot? No. Why bother.

      4. Melissa says:

        You are playing with fire my dear..

        Break the habit NOW!🔥🔥🔥

        1. sarabella says:

          If that was to me, hah, I am passed being hurt by any fire. He did all he could do to me and then some. He won’t ever get near to me again.

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