Both Dr O and Dr E (the good doctors) repeatedly like to ask me about my childhood. I do not like to talk about it. I tell them that I do not like to and the reason for that is that I do not remember much about it and therefore I feel uncomfortable talking about something which I do not feel in control of. Everyone is like that though aren’t they? If you are making a presentation but you only have half the material, you feel uncomfortable don’t you? I you are asked a question by somebody but you do not have all the information to hand, you feel uneasy. I explained that was my response and that it was an entirely understandable one. I’m not telling them the real reason behind my recalcitrance. Not a chance.

Unfortunately, Dr O then gets the bit between her teeth in one of our sessions and decides she would like to talk to me about family.

“Who has pinched your bagel this week then? Your brother or your sister?” I shot back seeking to deflect her. She ignored my remark and pressed on.

“Is there anybody in your immediate family you would like to discuss with me?” she asked.



Where do I start ? Why would I want to talk about people I rarely bother with (save my brother)? Why is it that these people assume that I have some overriding desire to discuss a group of people who I am related to but have nothing in common with? What is the obsession?

I remained silent.

“Okay, how about I choose a family member and you tell me three things that you like about them and three things that you do not like about them. Just as something to start our conversation?” she suggested.

I remained silent.

“How about your mother?” she asked and looked at me expectantly.

I got up and left the room. I’m not playing that game with Dr O. No way.

463 thoughts on “MatriNarc

  1. Jackie says:

    There’s a great example of a narcissist father on episode 8 of the Netflix show called “The Assassination of Gianni Versace”

    1. K says:

      Thank you Jackie
      I will check it out.

  2. Kara says:

    I was trying to help out by answering. I’m teasing you

    1. HG Tudor says:

      No you weren’t.

      1. Kara says:

        “Where’s the evidence that I wasn’t????”

        Kidding, joking, please lighten up HG. I’m being funny, that’s all 😊

        1. HG Tudor says:

          The evidence is in what you wrote.

          1. Kara says:

            I hope you will get me a pet tiger when it’s time for our golden period

          2. WendyRhoades says:

            HG, someone, I think Whitney suggested I take your empath detector test. It seems like the test is designed for people who are already positive they are empaths.

            Would you be able to tell from the test if I’m not an empath? Do you think you could use it to identify a Borderline Personality Disorder?

            My ex says I’m borderline and he’s a psychiatrist. Ive read that borderlines are attracted to narcissists and vice versa. Are you just flattering us with this empath talk?

          3. HG Tudor says:

            No it’s note.

            It confirms whether someone is an empath (if so, school and cadre) or if they are not an empath.

            Yes I would be able to tell, that is the whole point of the test, hence its name.

            No, it is not used to identify if someone has BPD.

          4. WendyRhoades says:

            Thanks, HG. I think I’m annoying you with my long comments so I’m asking other readers….

            Anyone else read “sitting target?” You know how HG says elites sometimes enjoy targeting Borderlines? Does that not seem completely inconsistent with targeting an empath? Can borderlines be empaths?

    2. Narc noob says:

      Kara, WD, do you identify yourself as co-d or an empath, if so what school and cadre?

      I have a tonne of narc attributes but the underlying 10 empath tendencies I also tick the box for.

      1. WendyRhoades says:

        Noob, definitely not a co-d. I really want to be an empath haha. I think there’s a chance that I’m a contagion empath or savior.

        How about you?

        1. Narc noob says:

          Not entirely sure. Some strong carrier traits but also have contagion, and elements of super, also. I can err on the side of the underdog also so perhaps that could be savior element, IDK. Would love to have been a magnet yet the gift of the gab is not my forte (nor writing).

  3. Chihuahuamum says:

    This reminds me when my mother and i went to a psychologist together which oddly she was ok with. We got talking and the psychologist asked me to ask her a question id really like to know and i asked what were some of her mistakes or regrets in life. Where did she go wrong. Do you think she would open up and admit to any? Nope. She kept saying she chooses to look at the positive and not dwell on the negative of her past. This was a wall bc i felt i could never discuss these types of things with her and get validation or support. I wanted a mother i could relate with. She had a fortress built sky high around her you could not get thru. The psychologist asked to talk to me after and told me my mother had a lot to work thru. She never mentioned npd. We ended up not going back i cant remember why exactly but i do know the psychologist was frusterated trying to get her to open up.
    Npd and bpd are two personality disorders psychologists really struggle with and quite often end up exhausted. A good psychologist is patient and doesnt give up. If its not a good fit theyll be honest and refer to another psychologist that maybe can offer a different angle.

  4. Lou says:

    HG, has your opinion of your doctors changed since you started this blog, and especially after you announced your Dolus Malus post?

    1. HG Tudor says:

      It has.

      1. Lou says:

        I see. Thanks.

      2. 1jaded1 says:

        Has it changed for the better or worse, HG?

        1. HG Tudor says:

          Has what changed for the better or worse 1J1?

          1. 1jaded1 says:

            Your opinion of the doctors. Has it changed for the better or worse?

          2. HG Tudor says:

            Thank you for clarifying. Better for one, worse for the other.

          3. 1jaded1 says:

            Thank you for your response HG. Would I be correct in inferring that your opinion of Dr. E has changed for the better and Dr. O has changed for the worse?

          4. HG Tudor says:


          5. 1jaded1 says:

            Thank you HG….PS, I never liked her.

  5. Sniglet says:

    HG Tudor – are you still seeing the good Drs. E and O?

    1. HG Tudor says:


  6. Kara says:

    Last comment I swear. Even I need a break from me but I am curious if HG is willing to share any thoughts on this based off our interaction.

    HG, or others but preferably HG, do you think no narcissist wants me as their IPPS or IPSS because I am narcissistic myself?

    I’ve got the narcissist father, I’m a professional listener and I spent a small fortune on surgery for my pet rabbit but she died anyway (RIP Figaro). All the empath traits.

    Yet, all of my boyfriends have been exceptionally kind men. I got infatuated with a victim narcissist but he didn’t want much to do with me. Why aren’t narcissists attracted to me? I’ve never been targeted by a narc besides my dad

    1. HG Tudor says:

      The question you should be asking yourself is – why am I wanting to know why narcissists are (seemingly – they might have been but you were unaware) uninterested in me, when I should be thanking my lucky stars that they (seemingly) are not.

      1. Kara says:

        Thank you!!!!!!! I’m so happy I’m not a narcissist and all the narcs are secretly into me. I should’ve known 😉

        1. Narc noob says:

          Ha ha!!

      2. Maddox says:

        i am confused. 😳 you managed to follow very well tho.

        1. Kara says:

          He clearly stated that he thinks I’m a super empath and he has a huge crush on me

          1. Getting There says:

            I know that you have that question of “why not.” I used to ask why not me with the good guys. I also used to wonder why I only attracted narcissists at work and nowhere else. I read “Sitting Target” which helped a lot in why I attracted cerebral but not why only at work. I finally realized that that is where I spend most of my time interacting with others without being in a hurry or distracted. Is it possible that where you work, the things you do, etc keep you from building on an interaction with a narcissist ethically (i.e. not counting your clients who are narcissists)? Is it possible that your natural defenses are protecting you? As a side note, what I have learned is that some narcissists do get in a relationship with other narcissists.

            As for the victim narcissist not interested in you, that is a “thank you” moment!
            Not to be mean, but I guess I am. I have been hit on by victim narcissists and immediately I lose energy and I am not even that type of empath!

            Is your inclusion of the part about possibly being a narcissist a bigger concern you have?

          2. Kara says:

            Hi Getting There,

            I am more concerned about my own potential narcissism than my narcissist. He doesn’t want to trade up and leave his IPPS for me, but I did get to sleep with him a bunch of times. I think his joblessness would’ve gotten old quick.

            Mostly I worry that if I am narcissistic I could hurt my patients without knowing it. I am very aware that I love feeling loved by my patients, I love that they see me as benevolent and giving. I also love my patients. I’ve cried with them, cried over them without them knowing it, and spend considerable time and money on post graduate education to improve my craft. I get a ton of my self esteem from thinking of myself as a “good therapist.”

            It would honestly devastate me if I only loved my patients because they fulfill a narcissistic need of mine for love and admiration. It scares me how much I enjoy their love and I am paranoid that I enjoy it too much.

          3. Getting There says:

            Hello, Kara.
            Thank you for sharing that! I fully understand what you are saying and feelings with that concern! I, too, have been concerned that I was a narcissist. The only reason I can put that aside is because I have asked my therapist, friends, coworkers, and HG has shown great patience in answering the same question multiple times from me (I have OCD tendencies and come up with all that they don’t know so conclude the answer is not fully informed).

            Have you considered the possibility that you are normal (not a narcissist or an empath)? It is possible that you are an empath who is proud of her work? The fact that you cry when your patients don’t know says so much to me! In that way, you are not trying to maintain a facade and yet you feel the compassion which comes out in your tears.

            I think it is very healthy for a therapist to step back and analyze where they are and how they are in regards to themselves and with their patients. Good for you for being willing to do that! It is not an easy job and there is a lot of responsibility. It is important to evaluate if what is being done is the best for a particular person; or am I applying a “it worked on the last person so it will work here;” or even am I providing therapy in a way that benefits me regardless of the patient. I think it says a lot that you at least allow that concern to be considered versus throwing it aside and saying “no, I am just that good.”

            I have a great therapist! My son has had a terrible therapist and a good one. I continue to experience the impact of the therapist who was more about himself and not about his patient (my son). The difference, I noticed, is the ability and willingness to fully listen and work with the person where they are (like you mentioned about with HG). To jump in right away and want to “fix” without fully respecting them and their experiences – that is a difference I noticed.

            May I challenge you without offending you? You of course don’t need to answer. The fact that you appreciate being loved by your patients, staying within the proper boundaries to include mentally and emotionally, could be a manifestation of wanting to feel that you have done a good job and your patients are the avenue to determine that as no one else is usually there to see the active work. Growing up how important was it to be recognized for doing a good job?
            Now for a twist, you love being loved by your patients but you also wanted to be loved by the victim narcissist, recognizing different types of love and appreciation. What is the connection for you considering both?

          4. Kara says:

            I feel so much better hearing that you’ve also been paranoid that you’re a narcissist. It makes my fear seem that much more unlikely. Of course, it is quite possible that I’m a “normal” person who takes a healthy pride in her patients.

            I see where you are coming from with the doing a good job and parents thing, and it’s probably where my head would’ve gone too, but don’t think that’s it for me. My parents couldn’t care less what I did with myself, haha. My father did very much want to be saved. He made multiple suicide attempts and once recruited me to assist him in committing suicide. We were not successful. But yeah I think when I’m saving patients I’m symbolically saving dad and that’s why I’m so passionate.

            I see my relationship with victim narc and the gratification I got from my relationship with him as very similar to my relationships with my patients. I met V narc at a narcotics anonymous meeting. (I used to have a cocaine problem. He was newly off heroin.) When we were seeing a lot of each other he was sober, had a job and I felt like I was nursing him to health with my guidance.

            When he pulled back from me (his other girls missed him), he relapsed, lost his job and a lot of weight. I still think I could have saved him if he’d kept spending time with me instead of them

          5. Getting There says:

            What happened with your father is horrible; I’m sorry you went through that!

            I hope you have gone no contact with your victim narcissist. You know you will never be able to save him, and you deserve better for yourself. I also hope that you are doing well with your own fight with substances. If you don’t have one yet, a great therapist is worth it.

            I’m glad you found HG. There is a lot of internal understanding that comes from here from what he provides as well as the discussions.

          6. Whitney says:

            Hi Kara <3 Narcs are fuelled by power and control, not by love!

            It is normal to love feeling loved by your patients. You are a human being. We all love to feel loved.

            You sound like an Empath. Maybe you can take HG's Empath Detector:

            It sounds like you are attracted to Narcissists and want a Victim Narc like your dad?

      3. Narc noob says:

        HG I couldn’t reply below so if you don’t mind, I’ll do it here.

        I wasn’t assuming I was painted black due to your succinct answers or the clearing up of what you deem to be inaccurate statements. Rather my assessment was more based on the consistency in which you deal with comments and commentors. I will put aside what I understand and justify to be *fair* however, and accept that I could be using too much of my ET to form an opinion.

        1. HG Tudor says:

          Can you expand on what you mean by “the consistency in which you deal with comments and commentors.” as I do not understand what you mean by that.

          1. Narc noob says:

            I think your last blog outlined it for me, actually. Ha, but no, I’m not saying you do that here on your blog but neither am I up for anymore back and forth. I’ll take it on the chin as I can accept that my sensing abilities are out of whack – likely due to my own situation, and being quite new. Thanks for your time, as always 🙏

        2. Kara says:

          Noob, from what I’ve observed HG consistently replies when asked a direct question and very rarely chimes in otherwise. If he’s not answering your question he’s probably scolding you. I don’t think he dislikes any of us and I think he likes a select few, such as me.

          1. HG Tudor says:

            1. Where’s the evidence that if I’m not answering a question that is scolding? Evidence, not supposition.
            2. Where’s the evidence I like a select few? Who are the select few? On what basis do you assert (with evidence) that you are included in such a group, if it exists?

          2. Narc noob says:

            Kara, it depends on the nature of the direct question. HG said that he isn’t compelled to answer all and he will address those he wishes to. He is busy, some are irrelevant and others might be too close to home?

          3. Narc noob says:

            Lol, you wish! 😂😉

        3. Kara says:

          Hi Whitney!

          I haven’t quite figured out how to reply to comments. Sometimes ‘reply’ shows up and sometimes now so I hope you see this!

          Thank you so much for your kind words. Maybe I will do the empath test. I’m scared I’m not one and am just a dramatic borderline. Did you take it and if yes how did you find it?

          I wanted that particular Victim
          narc because he was so beautiful. My pattern is to date successful men who treat me like gold. This is another reason I’ve questioned if I’m empath or narc, have never had a narc boyfriend.

          I’m dating someone wonderful and kind now. Am not about to mess things up for beautiful V narc. Thanks so much for checking in ❤️

          P.S. I’m going to change my alias to something other than my actual name. I’ve tslked a ton about myself on here and could easily be identified by just about anyone who knows me haha

      4. Kara says:

        Getting There, thank you so much for the support ❤️ I’m curious if you don’t mind sharing, why your son’s therapist is terrible and how it is still impacting you? I’m glad you have a great therapist yourself. I’m in the market for one-but I’ve had a good five years on the couch and am giving myself a bit of a break while I work full time, try to grow my private practice, and complete my psychoanalytic training program.

        I am still in touch with V narc. Not worried about getting sucked back in. I have an amazing boyfriend now and I wouldn’t jeopardize that for more of V narc’s dumb sounding Brooklyn accent and indoor e cigarette smoking ass, even if he looks good. He’s tried asking me out again, it hasn’t worked. Been almost a year since I’ve seen him in person. But I don’t block his number because if he does want help with getting off drugs I would be be there for him.

        1. Getting There says:

          I’m glad you are here, Kara, and sharing with all of us!

          LOL Brooklyn accents are just fun.

          It makes sense to want to be there to help when someone you care about turns to you for support. The issue is that he is a narcissist and has the potential to use this to his advantage. What great news about the good guy in your life and that you have been working on you during your break from therapy! I hope you find a great one when you are ready to go back! You deserve peace and healthy! You deserve to walk proudly forward in your life and not be pulled back!

          The first therapist was the one with whom I had issues. One example of an issue was when I was explaining that my young son was very excited about an idea I had. I described what he said and did, on his own, that expressed this excitement. Without having ever spoken to my son about the idea, this therapist stated, in front of my son, that my son didn’t want to do it. This therapist had a belief in a particular parenting style. I freely admitted that I needed to improve my parenting style, not like his way but in general. This therapist spent a lot of time criticizing my parenting style, and he would do it in front of my ex and my young son. Some of his conclusions were based on faulty logic. I chose not to challenge him during those times even though it was obvious. There have been multiple times since where my ex will use the specific conclusions based on faulty logic, in front of my son, as if they are fact.
          I recognize that not all therapists nor all therapists’ styles work for everyone. I am beyond glad that we found one who matched what my son needed with the second therapist.

          1. WendyRhoades says:

            Getting there I’m sorry to hear you had that experience :(. Sounds awful. I can see how that could happen as you of course assume the professional knows what they’re doing, but our professional isn’t really regulated past the point of licensure. It is a pain in the ass to get licensed, but after that no one checks up on the work you’re doing with private paying patients. Insurance companies only check because they want to justify not paying for any more sessions. They’re not judging for quality. It sounds like you came across a quack. Am glad you and your son are working with someone you trust now,

            Nunya, EMDR sounds like some next level quackery if you ask me. But I have smart, sensitive peers I respect who swear by it. So who am I to judge if it helps people? Are you considering trying it? Would be so interested in your experience

    2. Narc noob says:

      Hi Kara, I have asked the same question to HG. Although there has been slight interest in the past, nothing that has flowed both ways. I’ve had some interest or others have but thankfully didn’t hit it off. I was entangled at age 40 though, my curiosity got the better of me. I even told him that “people like you aren’t attracted to me”

      1. Kara says:

        Narc noob, is it possible that HG’s explanation for me applies to you too? That narcs are interested and it just doesn’t seem like they are?

        1. Narc noob says:

          Hey Kara, I guess I wouldn’t really know but certainly doesn’t feel very likely! If it were the case, and control is number 1 on their list, surely they would act and speak accordingly and we would be informed, correct?

          I would go so far to say that I am the overly interested one, naively of course, but people are fascinating creatures and the more someone has to hide the more curious I become. Being an open book and all, who wouldn’t find the apposing interesting…

          How about you??

          I actually feel as though I somehow painted myself black already with HG, but my over sensitive nature can get these things wrong.

          1. HG Tudor says:

            Use logic as opposed to amorphous, vapid feelings. This is what I teach. Show me the evidence of you being painted black as opposed to assuming you have been painted black.

            Just because I correct yours or anybody else’s inaccuracies does not mean you are painted black. I also have to be succinct otherwise nothing else would get done, thus I am to the point a lot of the time.

    3. Narc noob says:

      Kara, I can’t seem to *reply* on the other post you responded to so excuse me while it’s done here instead.

      Yes, I saw the comment about HGs scrapbook and like most other article’s on the blog it was distasteful and alarming. The more I read the more I feel I could quite easily box people into black and white myself – well, once I know if they have the markings of an narc, that is. Nevertheless HG is unique and intriguing and so the blog ticks the box for now. I usually make a good go of anything before realising it isn’t me any longer and off I go to find something else.

      My situation is different, meaning that the person I got involved with has control of my devices. Anything I do online with my devices. I assume that writing on this blog would be considered the opposite of NC. My hands are tied at present, however.

      1. Kara says:

        The opposite of NC?

        1. Narc noob says:

          HG talks about NC and GOSO when you are entangled with someone who is abusive.

          1. WendyRhoades says:

            I searched those terms, Noob and didn’t see what you mean. But if you’d like friendly feedback on your situation I’m all ears. Sounds tough :-/

          2. K says:

            This should clear it up for you, get out, stay out and no contact.

      2. WendyRhoades says:

        Thank you, K!

    4. ava101 says:

      Poor bunny. 🙁

      I wonder that myself, I attract them like crazy, but not for long (I mean, for a very long time in a bad way, yes, but never in a uhm “good” way / golden period way). We are hopefully just bad toys.

      1. WendyRhoades says:

        Oh thank you for your condolences about Figaro. I really miss her terribly. I hope she had a good life despite my never being able to feed her hay because my boyfriend was allergic to it.

        I agree, I think we’re bad toys. I don’t get how that can be but I don’t see another explanation.

  7. Kara says:

    HG, you might consider telling Dr. O that she has been seduced into an enactment with you in which she is assuming the role of the matrinarc, who values only your performance and what that performance says about her. She is demanding that you perform health by asking you invasive questions aimed at “curing” your narcissism against your will. If you perform health for her she benefits because she can then say, “look at what a brilliant doctor I am! I’ve cured a psychopathic narcissist!” She has adopted matrinarc’s attitude and traumatizing characteristic.

    As I shared, this is known as an enactment in relational psychoanalysis. Even good therapists can get caught up in it. If you point it out to her, the correct response if for her to OWN UP TO IT. This is not a ‘gotchya’ opportunity for her to say, “oh now I’m like your mother am I????”

    Anything other than a humble response in which she takes full accountability for her mistake, and honestly, please consider getting yourself another therapist. Studies have repeatedly shown that seeing a low empathy therapist actually makes patients worse.

    1. nunya biz says:

      “perform health”

      Oh yes, I can feel that. I didn’t know that was a thing, I was actively wondering.
      Btw, when I “complain” regarding therapy it’s not any more weighted in my mind than benefits or neutral issues, I am just interested in putting words and form to concepts I can feel, so my comments are just based on that.
      What you are saying about a low empathy therapist makes perfect sense to me. I believe a recent one I had was using a high level of cognitive empathy, which is not the same and the difference absolutely is an issue. What you are describing seems on the edge of power struggle as well, but so subtle.
      Thank you for your comment, I appreciate the insight.

      1. Kara says:

        I’m glad you found it useful! I am always interested in “complaints” and feedback about therapy, especially negative feedback. It’s something therapists should welcome. Also happy to assist with matching academic terms with your lived experience. It is nice to know there’s a word for what you’re experiencing, right?

        So funny, shortly after I finished my rant about HG’s therapists on here, I had a second session with a new patient who informed me at the end that he didn’t want to see me again. Upon reflection, I see where I was misattuned. Still kind of crushing to hear.

        1. nunya biz says:

          Wow, Kara, you sound like a good healthy therapist. Being empathic, and I think also above average aware of interactions between myself and others in a somewhat conscious way, I tend to reasonably approach things like that in my mind because I think it’s just impossible for a therapist for be perfectly objective while being empathetic and impossible to have zero transference, projection, rationalization, etc.. all those things.
          (I feel silly saying all that to an actual therapist and I don’t know if those are the words, but that is my layperson’s perspective).
          So long as I can take a step back and see true benefit and progress as both a goal and a possibility I think flexibility is most helpful. I’ve got weird defensive and self protection reactions still though.

          I think it is so impressive you see being misattuned. I’m taking a break from therapy, but I don’t think it will be long before I jump back in. I think I need to let recent therapy interactions settle. Yes, the academic terms help in providing a little relief that I am seeing something real : )
          It’s like therapeutic anti-gaslighting, haha.

          1. Kara says:

            Thanks for saying I sound like a good therapist! That makes me feel great.

            You are totally right that it’s impossible for a therapist to be objective, without transference, “a blank slate” (and yes you used all those terms in a way that makes perfect sense!) The blank slate model is pretty unpopular now. It is a remnant of the Freudian model, but most psychoanalysts prefer newer, 2-person orientations such as relational or interpersonal psychoanalysis as opposed to 1 person and a blank screen!

            From the way you’re sharing about therapy, I’m concerned you may have encountered a narcissistic therapist. I don’t want to go on too long about HG’s area of expertise, narcissism, so I’ll just say narcissism in psychotherapists certainly exists, and is likely present in therapists who consistently insist you accept their interpretations, insist that you “perform health,” and pathologize every criticism you make of them.

          2. HG Tudor says:

            I agree with Kara’s final paragraph.

          3. Lou says:

            So do I.

          4. nunya biz says:

            Thank you so much Kara and HG.
            Your comments momentarily made me teary. My interaction involved more abstract elements than what you describe but just feeling briefly validated in my thoughts is invaluable to me and helpful for my ongoing healing process. My tone recently has probably been a little more poor me-ish because of attempts toward healing and self sufficiency have actually thrust me into a couple of unhealthy entanglements including a Narcissist in my workplace attempting to manipulate me with my income and referrals, which puts even more on the line. What frustrates me is that I do have awareness and boundaries, but it seems insufficient in these circumstances as I did not choose either the N client or the therapist.

            I may need to consult on some of these more complex life things, HG, just trying to make sense of it.
            Sorry to hijack a mini analysis, thank you again

        2. K says:

          Your upset is understandable and NPD abuse is a very serious issue.

          HG has provided an arena for me and tens of thousands of others (readers) so we can recover from our abuse. All of my questions have been validated and answered on narcsite gratis, thanks to HG, and I have gotten unprecedented support from everyone here. My experience has been exceptional and, if it weren’t for HG, I would still be in an abusive relationship with my ex-boyfriend.

          I am a volunteer school librarian and I am pretty good at directing people towards the books or information that they are seeking and I really do enjoy helping others. I thank God every day that I found narcsite.

          1. NarcAngel says:

            Your response is testament to your understanding and tolerance and is much greater than mine in this case. You have the appreciation of many here for all you do to help, with no judgement or innuendo why. Thank you.

          2. K says:

            Thank you NarcAngel
            Kara is new (posting) to the blog and I understand how the situation may appear and I hope she continues to read and post. One of the best things about being on narcsite has been the opportunity to learn about my emotions and how to get them under control by using logic, honestly, it has been a phenomenal experience.

            Just for the record, there has been many times when I have thought: Damn! NA has way more patience than I do! It has been a pleasure to be here with you, and all the others, and the non-judgmental vibe on narcsite has been paramount in my recovery.

          3. NarcAngel says:

            Well mine wears thin some days, and today is apparently one of those days. Not the drama Llama nonsense – I just blow that shit off, but I didn’t receive kindly the questioning and evaluation of your much appreciated volunteering here, or the suggestion that there is exploitation that we are unable to identify without outside intervention. We are merely attempting here (perhaps in an unconventional way to some) to help each other find the information and solutions that sometimes conventional avenues have failled to do. Tomorrow is a new day.

          4. Lou says:

            Yes, NA, luckily Kara was asking K questions out of sheer curiosity and no judgement.
            She also seems to know everything about the good doctors and feel in the position to declare them totally inept after reading a few posts that clearly cannot show the total length and details of their sessions.
            She also knows better what’s best for HG in terms of therapy.
            I wonder what that new patient saw in her to not want to see her again.

          5. K says:

            Based on what I have read about HG’s sessions, I am inclined to agree with Kara. And I think Dr E is one of his kind.

          6. Lou says:

            K, personally I don’t believe Dr E is a narcissist, but I know I may be wrong; I just don’t have the information to make such assessment. But the point is whether or not he is competent or not. I do not think we can judge that either based on the posts here. I see the results of his work, and that is what HG is doing. Yes, a lot of what he’s doing is due to his intelligence and desire to build his legacy. But I don’t completely buy that. HG has always stated that part of his awareness and his work here is thanks to the therapy he’s done with the GD. That, to me, is enough proof that they are not inept.

          7. Kara says:

            I have read everything HG has posted about the good doctors so, I do know everything that’s been made available to know.

            Not sure why you’re coming for me here. Maybe I came off as arrogant to you?

            It would be a real treat for me to hear about HG engaged with a competent therapist, to see how he presents with someone who works similarly to me. I am encouraging him to seek a competent therapist so I can read about it.

            My assessment of the situation based on the information available is solid

          8. HG Tudor says:

            Fair observations.

          9. Lou says:

            Well, HG, you know more than anyone else in this site about your own doctors. If you consider Kara’s observations about them fair, then that means you agree with her assessment. I did not agree with her but I don’t have enough information about your doctors. So I won’t discuss any further on her observations.
            I have a lot to read anyway.

          10. HG Tudor says:

            Incorrect Lou, I stated that Kara’s observations are fait based on the limited information she has. There is some validity in what she states about their conduct but she does not know the totality of the situation. Your disagreement with her will be equally valid.

          11. Lou says:

            I see.

          12. Kara says:

            Thanks for your response! I’m glad the site’s made such a big difference for you

          13. K says:

            My pleasure Kara!

        3. Narc noob says:

          Hi Kara, welcome to the blog!

          I’ve read a few comments of yours and feel compelled to ask myself your wise questions of “what am I doing here” also. My situation is different to the other’s (as far as I can tell) but still that doesn’t change the fact that I sometimes walk away with my head all messy and other days I’m left more clear. It really is an oxymoron to run from N into another! HGs articles of *truth* are pretty screwy and don’t leave me feeling too good – I’d rather read the comments most days.

          On the other hand, it’s evident he has helped more than one person with this blog.

          1. Kara says:

            Thaaaaannnk youuu for confirming that, yes, some of this truth is presented in a deeply unsettling way.

            Have you read wherever it is that HG talks about how he takes pictures of his women and cuts body parts off these pictures and arranges all his favorite parts to compile a whole new woman? Pure nightmare fuel.

            What’s your situation here? You said it was different?

  8. Kara says:

    I’m a psychotherapist and it sounds like your doctors are being very aggressive with you in trying to get you to talk about your mother. I can’t imagine a scenario in which I’d insist on a discussion the way Dr O attempted to…maybe if I had a VERY strong rapport with the patient, which it seems is absent here based on your walking out. It makes me wonder what her theoretical orientation is. Do you know, HG? That whole exchange sounds so inept on her part. Also, why do you have two doctors? It’s usually considered best practice to have one only (unless one is for talk therapy and the other for medication).

    Anyway, it sounds like based on your more recent writing about the shieldmaiden that you want to get better. Is that right? If so that is so encouraging!

    Also please do not share my website here HG it is for you if you’re interested! But I’d like to reserve the right to comment childishly if it suits me

    1. HG Tudor says:

      I have been assigned two for reasons of control, revenue generation and a further reason which I prefer not to divulge at present as it will jeopardise my Grand Design.

      1. Kara says:

        That sounds ominous.

        It would be great if you wrote a blog entry about how the narcissistic patient presents in therapy. Is he charming? Dismissive? Does he try to portray himself in a certain way?

        Therapists are taught that narcissists tend to dominate the entire session with nonstop talking and don’t want to hear from the therapist. If the therapist does talk the narc pt responds dismissively. But I bet that’s not the only way they might present. Would be so interesting to hear about how you are as a patient.

          1. Kim e says:

            K….it amazes me how you always seem to be able to find this stuff.

          2. K says:

            Kim e
            Ha ha ha…the magic is in the fingers. If you have some time, read the archives; they are phenomenal and, I think, you will love the articles.

          3. Kara says:

            Hey, thanks!

            I’ve checked out the articles and am left with the conclusion that the good doctors are completely inept. Honestly between the closed ended questions, the failure to tolerate silence and ambiguity, setting themselves at odds with the patient and general sounds like amateur hour.

            It makes me wonder if HG is making these stories up.

          4. K says:

            My pleasure Kara!
            I think HG kept the Good Doctors on their toes and they were outmanned, so to speak. If you go through the archives, there are more articles with the GDs and I think you will find them very enjoyable. I did.

            The Five Rules prevents HG from using any manipulations on narcsite. They are mentioned above, under “Knowing The Narcissist.” Every once in a while I have to reread them. Enjoy the reading!

          5. Kara says:

            Ahh the fantasy of outmanning one’s shrink. I am very familiar with that one and am peeved by how it’s portrayed in popculture.

            This is an impossibility with a competent therapist. A competent therapist will join the patient’s defenses. In HG’s case, he clearly delights in being a narcissist. His therapist should be congratulating him on how brilliantly the narcissistic defense is working for him (in a non sarcastic manner). Instead they’re trying to “open him up,” which he has communicated both verbally and behaviorally he is not ready for. Of course he is aiming to outdo them-they’re not on his side! They want to let the creature out and are not showing any respect for HG’s justified terror of it.

            I appreciate your thoughts on this K and am now fascinated by your relationship with HG. In the blog post you sent me he called on you to steer a commenter in the right direction. Why are you willing to do this for him? No judgement. I’m guiltily very interested in him too clearly. I’m just curious

          6. K says:

            My pleasure Kara
            Ha ha ha…he very much delights in being the narcissist and in control during his sessions with the GDs and it is very clear that he is running the show. I found the interactions between them amusing and fascinating.

            Ask any question you like; I don’t think you are judging at all. I am a non-intimate tertiary source (NITS) in HG’s fuel matrix and he dubbed me Official Archivist because I can pull up comments or articles that are helpful to the reader so he doesn’t always have to repeat himself and I do it to help him or the others on the blog.

            There is a lot to learn about HG and his perspective, he is both fascinating and brilliant and I think you will enjoy the experience.

          7. Kara says:

            Well that is kind of you. What do you get out of this arrangement, K?

            The way you write about him and your willingness to dedicate so much energy to someone who gleefully describes himself as evil is a little upsetting to me. So many readers here have been abused by narcissists and I would hate to think that you’re being exploited here on a blog that is meant to help empaths, not use them.

            Maybe this is a very small part of your life, or maybe (hopefully) you’re getting paid by HG in money or favour.
            Not knocking HG’s books at all. They’re a ton of fun and very reader friendly. But they don’t have every single thing that is useful to know about narcissism (no one author can cover that.)

          8. HG Tudor says:

            Where is the exploitation? This is a blog that nobody is made to read. I provide FOR FREE hundreds of excellent articles and answer tens of thousands of comments FOR FREE. I did not ask K to undertake this role, she does it because

            1. She likes to help other readers;
            2. She likes to help me and does so as a thank you for all of the first-class information I give.; and
            3. She has a skill set in her private life which lends itself to what she does.

          9. Kara says:

            Or, she may be doing it because she is pathologically attracted to narcissists and feels compelled to do their bidding. In that case, she is repeating a maladaptive relational pattern, thereby reinforcing that pattern, making it harder for her to relearn relationships in which both parties are recognized by one another as whole people.

            I see you edited out my book recommendation, HG. Why?

          10. HG Tudor says:

            As ever, your opinion may be expressed but its validity founders by your use of the word ‘bidding’. As I stated in my earlier comment, I did not ask K to do this (furthermore I have not insisted she maintain doing it) and this point you have either missed or chosen to ignore.

            Moreover you also failed to take heed of my first point. She does it to help readers and therefore that element is nothing to do with me.

            K has a skill set which is applicable here from her private life, she enjoys using that skill set for her own benefit and that of others. It is that straight forward.

            I removed the book recommendation because this is my blog and not a platform for the works of others.

          11. Kara says:

            All fair points but none of them disprove my interpretation that K’s interest in helping you and your readers is a repetition of a pathological relational pattern. That is for her and the rest of your Empath Back to Work Programme to consider.

          12. HG Tudor says:

            I do not have to disprove it, Kara, you allege, you must prove.

          13. K says:

            Your interpretation could very well be correct, however, since I have been here, I have leaned to get out, stay out (GOSO), go no/low contact (NC), as well as, disengage immediately; once you know, you go. I recognize hoovers, why they are done and how to deal with them and how the disorder presents.

            There are no more narcissists directly in my personal life, I am quite happy without them and I am moving forward and thriving.

            There are a handful of people in my personal life who have sought help for abusive relationships and their therapists didn’t identify that they were entangled with a narcissist, however, they were prescribed meds and one of them tried to kill herself. None of them are healed or moving forward after years of therapy and they continue to engage with their narcissists.

            I hope you stay and continue reading.

          14. NarcAngel says:

            “So many readers here have been abused by narcissists and I would hate to think that you’re being exploited here on a blog that is meant to help empaths, not use them.”

            True. So you thought it prudent as someone in your field to come on here to insult K’s intelligence, question her motive in helping others, and chastise her? Wow.

            You also stated that you think HG possibly makes some of these stories up, expressed surprise that K can handily locate comments and articles, and hope that she gets paid. You appear to be trying to infer something darker here without being direct.

            Frankly, my opinion is that you are planting seeds because you are concerned/annoyed that a forum this successful detracts from your professional accreditation.

            Just so you know – I do not get paid here either. And I have never felt exploited, but your comments threatened to change that.

          15. Kara says:

            Sorry to offend, NarcAngel.

            I find a lot of the readers’ here, myself included, relationship to HG fascinating. It seems that he has piqued the sexual interest of many women despite never showing his face. I’ve found my own thoughts about HG both frightening and intriguing as I sometimes find myself craving interaction with him, sometimes wanting his approval and other times craving his contempt. I thought K might be experiencing something similar and was curious in hearing how she experiences her relationship with HG. I wondered if she had considered that she is experiencing a traumatic bond to HG. By suggesting that she might, I didn’t mean to imply that she had never considered it herself, just hoping she’d expand upon the idea.

            As far as professional jealousy, you are sorely mistaken. I am thrilled that there is a layperson friendly source of information available and have even referred friends to this blog. It in no way takes away from my or my colleagues’ credibility. I think that lived experience should be more respected in the mental health field than it is.

          16. K says:

            You may find this comment helpful. It is located on the link below and you can follow the interaction between Viktoria and HG on that thread.

            HG Tudor
            FEBRUARY 10, 2019 AT 13:09
            I know when I lie, I know when I tell the truth. I am a Greater, hence I know the difference. I am highly intelligent and calculating so I do what is the best thing. The best thing for me to create a lasting legacy and to weaponise empaths is to give them the truth – so I do. The role plays e.g. Narcissist v Shelf IPSS are clearly role plays but they are worked examples of the truth, they are not lies. Some articles are based on understanding the way we or you think and draw on actual experiences and observations (not lies) to make a point.

            You are sensible not to take everything at face value and I encourage such wariness but it need not be applied in this place, use that in your private life interactions.


          17. nunya biz says:

            Interesting, Kara.
            I agree on the revenue generation thing, I have had to very actively focus on objectivity in therapy decisions and make sure I am self-advocating with intention.

          18. nunya biz says:

            *wonders where K is*

            I hope you are having a great day, K.

          19. HG Tudor says:

            I have her down a mine for me digging for fuel, it’s part of my Empath Back 2 Work Programme, it’s not exploitation, no, not at all.

          20. Kim e says:

            I have her down a mine for me digging for fuel, it’s part of my Empath Back 2 Work Programme, it’s not exploitation, no, not at all.

            WOW.HG…….is this you being annoyed?!?!?!

          21. HG Tudor says:

            No, it is called humour Kim!

          22. K says:

            Ha ha ha….that was good HG!

          23. K says:

            nunya biz
            Ha ha ha…I am here. I was defending the underdog(s) on another thread. I am having a great day and I hope you are too!

          24. nunya biz says:

            Please remind me not to make you mad before I do it.
            : D
            I hope you are also having a great day, HG.

          25. HG Tudor says:

            Tip top, thank you for your kind enquiry.

          26. nunya biz says:

            I believe in my sorting through information (way behind the “k” ball in my readings), HG has some inferred perspective regarding the N/e dynamic that helps with the perception of the empath being easily duped or not making informed decisions? In my process I am honing in on that point for myself currently. My discussion with you Kara i could sum up my usual approach to things as “don’t throw the baby out with the bathwater”, meaning i frequently have an underlying understanding of a dynamic that may not be obvious, but I try to take responsibility for my separate opinions simultaneously and respecting (and using) the contributions of the narc. I have been fascinated some narcs dismiss my understanding and continue to push or take past my ability to be patient and I have to terminate the interaction. That doesn’t happen here. I am hoping for further insight on here as to better navigation since my errors are more frequently of fairness and good intention rather than lack of awareness?

            I agree with K, things look different after understanding the site. I see things differently.

          27. nunya biz says:

            Lol, K, I missed that!

          28. FYC says:

            Hello Kara and welcome. I am pleased to see a psychotherapist join in the discussion. I apologize in advance for the lengthy reply.

            While I agree with your assessment of the not-so-“good doctors” whole-heartedly, I must take issue with your highly negative assumptions regarding K and HG.

            I hope K and HG do not mind me adding my perspective. I look forward to K’s reply.

            We know HG does not do his work for us, but rather to create a legacy of knowledge in an area he is imminently qualified to expound upon. HG does all things in accordance with his prime aims. He is honest and straight forward about this. HG is respectful and adheres to his 5 rules of engagement. I have never seen HG be abusive or exploitive of his readers. I assume you may have made your comment to K in an abundance of caution and concern, but it reads as condescending, judgmental and a bit arrogant, while earlier you suggested you would not take such an approach. Please reread your comment. Perhaps that will assist in you in avoiding further insults and misattunement. K’s contributions here are highly intelligent, strong, helpful and appreciated by all.

            It may be the case, Kara, that you do not come from a family that includes a narcissist. You may also have had the good fortune to resist the machinations of narcissists you have encountered. If so, you are very fortunate indeed. This would also explain your current level of understanding.

            As for me, I have some familial narcissists and have also had relationships with narcissists before acquiring an accurate understanding of narcissism. I am most closely aligned with HG’s definition of a super empath, magnet cadre.

            I sought therapy several years ago and found it not very helpful. My therapist meant well, but failed to identify what was at the core of the machinations performed by these people (including silent treatments, projection, blame-shifting, gaslighting, etc.). This is no slight. I am also highly educated and failed to make the connection due to lack of specific knowledge on narcissism and the use of denial as a coping mechanism. In any case, I ceased therapy and began intensive research. I primarily read scholarly journals, medical research studies and some popular psychological journals.

            My google searches also brought me to I was initially off-put by the EVIL banner (I prefer the current banner). But I returned and the banner changed. I began to read HG’s works voraciously. No one who has suffered abuse would describe this reading as “fun”. Highly enlightening and therapeutic is more accurate.

            I found (and find) HG’s works to be brutally honest, brilliant and exceedingly useful. I believe HG’s model is the most accurate and complete in existence. I hope it is considered in the scholarly arena, without judgement or prejudice regarding the psychological diagnosis of the author. I would assert that there are many licensed doctors and therapists that are also highly narcissistic or truly NPD or even highly functioning APD/psychopaths. HG has always appreciated relevant links shared to others research. He has a thirst for knowledge.

            HG’s works literally enabled me to successfully heal from many years of narcissistic abuse. I utilize his information and tools successfully ongoing. The healing and knowledge I received are immeasurable. I am exceedingly grateful. It is this type of gratitude you are witnessing from his readers that spurs the ongoing support. We are here to learn, help others and to give back.

            Lastly, I do not take offense at HG’s positive association with his narcissism and psychopathy. Yet I do not condone his negative behaviors. I simply recognize his defense mechanism was created as a response to severe abuse as a child (which also likely ignited the expression of his psychopathy gene). It would be natural for HG to positively associate with a defense mechanism he perceives as saving his life and enabling him to operate successfully (professionally and in his prime aims) and avoid pain. It is also laudable HG is in the process of working on a new (prosocial) dynamic in his relationships with the assistance of his psychologist and psychiatrists and we support this aim as well.

            I also understood HG’s frustration in his reply to your same comment. I hope my perspective was useful as well. Best wishes in your ongoing pursuit of learning, Kara.

          29. HG Tudor says:

            Well put, FYC.

          30. Kara says:

            Did not get through all of that FCY. I stopped st the part where maybe I don’t have a narcissist in my family or have been “fortunate” in this regard.

            My narcissist father was diagnosed by HG when I purchased an email consultation from him

            . Don’t appreciate the suggestion that I “don’t get it,” either academically or personally. And now you are the one coming across as condescending

          31. NarcAngel says:

            Nailed it. Thank you.

          32. K says:

            Thank you FYC
            Your perspective is always welcome and I find great value in differing points of view and the questions posed by others. As a psychotherapist, Kara may have been coming form a position of caution, concern and curiosity and was simply trying to understand the dynamic among me, HG and the readers and, hopefully, she will continue to read and post so she can learn our backstories and we can learn about her’s, as well, and I agree; the not-so-“good doctors, seem inept or, perhaps, outmanned.

          33. nunya biz says:

            That helped me also, FYC.

          34. FYC says:

            Sorry my original response is in moderation because it is a long one. This will be brief.

            Kara, your status as a ‘psychotherapist’ affords you an opportunity to add value (as a portion of your comments have), or assail people here you do not know, who are not your clients and have not asked for your biased opinions and projections (given your expressed conflicted pathological attraction/revulsion with HG). If you are well intended, please try to gain some perspective and take the high road. Wishing you clarity and recovery.

          35. Kara says:

            I have not assailed anyone or assumed expert status about narcissism. I fully respect and enjoy that HG is the expert on narcissism here.

            I have shared my expertise regarding therapeutic technique, not narcissism or any other mental illness. I have commented on the therapeutic technique of the good doctors in hopes that HG will have a therapy experience he will then write about, which would be pleasurable to me

            The question I posed to K could have been posed by any reader. I do not expect her or anyone to defer to my opinion because I happen to be a therapist.

          36. FYC says:

            Kara, I read all of your several lengthy comments and tried to understand your perspective. I took serious issue with your approach and voiced my opinion. It was not an attack, but a response to your assertions about K and HG. I have compassion for your experience with narcissists and sincerely, not condescendingly, wish you recovery. Since you do not read other’s comments to fully seek understanding of their perspective though, I see no reason to continue the conversation.

          37. Kara says:

            Have you read my last comment to you?

            I am going to take a break from commenting but I really appreciate everyone’s perspectives and will read through any more comments directed at me.

            I did eventually read through yours, FYC, although I was *triggered* when you suggested I didn’t have a family Narc. I’m not going to defend all of the concerns you expressed about my participation here because it is seeming at this point these concerns are going to go on forever. If not from you, from another fan.

            I do respect your and everyone else’s right to express your feelings and as I said I am going to read all comments towards me.

          38. FYC says:

            Kara, I see you read my second comment. You skipped my first comment agreeing with your assessment of the not-so-“good doctors”, along with much of the rest of my comment. That is your perogative, yet not particularly useful in understanding another’s perspective.

            I was referring specifically to these comments of yours:

            To HG: “…*my interpretation that K’s interest in helping you and your readers is a repetition of a pathological relational pattern.* That is for her and *the rest of your Empath Back to Work Programme to consider.*” Also, your insinuation that offering our time and help is exploitive if it is not transactional (paid).

            Please explain how this is not an assailment? It is an unsolicited, negative assertion at best, with a sarcastic kicker for the rest of us that seek to give back.

            Once you declare your professional position, it is difficult to divorce yourself from it. I’m glad you clarified you do not expect anyone to defer to your opinion, yet you must realize some might give it more weight. Therein lies the greater responsibility.

            You pointed out anyone could have made the same assessment of K and HG. Guess what? They have.

            In the past few days there have been several negative, similar comments. So you’ll forgive those of us frustrated at this point when a therapist does so too.

            Kara, you still have my sympathy and empathy for your own familial narcissistic abuse you divulged in your response. I am not angry with you at all. I am merely protective of those I have come to appreciate for their very valid and extensive contributions and for whom I hold sincere gratitude. I hope they continue to do so. If it ever becomes the perception that I do not add value here, I will gladly depart and remain ever grateful.

          39. Kara says:

            FYC, I do see more now that this blog is a meaningful place for many readers and understand how my comment frustrated. I honestly hadn’t considered that a lot of serious healing happened here. I am glad for you and everyone else who is helped by HG’s work and don’t mean to disrespect your experience here.

            I am a little surprised how people find salvation here-not because the advice isn’t good or true! I do agree with HG’s conceptualization of NPD and am sure he is well equipped to advise folks on how to handle their narcissists.

            What made me not take this blog as a healing space at first glance is the provocative tone of a lot of HG’s writing. When he writes about how he tortures his empaths, there is a self satisfied and playful air that I described earlier as “fun.” He is revelling in his awfulness. You can tell he’s having fun writing it. The fictional scenarios he uses to exemplify narcissistic techniques of manipulation read like fantasies. I feel like I’m reading Narc porn. It makes for some fun reading, but some of it is off putting and if I read too much of it I get anxious and have nightmares. I read all of “Fuel” right before bedtime and dreampt my father cut into my shin with a chainsaw that night. It was one of those soooo real seeming nightmares.

            Anyway, I’m surprised HG has admirers so dedicated because he’s kind of terrifying. I thought others would feel similarly. I am sincerely glad that people are finding help here and am sorry if anyone feels my comment belittled the help they received from HG.

          40. WhoCares says:


            “Anyway, I’m surprised HG has admirers so dedicated because he’s kind of terrifying. I thought others would feel similarly.”

            If it’s any consolation; HG terrified me at first too.

          41. FYC says:

            Hello K, After giving this some thought, I want to apologize to you for stepping in with my unsolicited perspective. I will take care to avoid doing so in the future. I still hold the same concerns as I expressed earlier, but if you and others found Kara’s approach helpful then I am pleased for you all and gladly bow out. As you know, I have greatly valued your contributions here (and others) and your support.

            HG and NA, Thank you for your support. I hold you both in high regard and have found your comments honest, direct, and humorous on very many occasions. NA, obviously I concurred with your own comment on the matter. I could be way off base, but I have a sneaking suspicion that you may have held a role in your family as protector/defender as I did. I apologize in advance if I am wrong. I appreciate you very much.

          42. K says:

            No apologies are necessary and I don’t mind your perspective at all, on the contrary, I welcome it. That is part of what makes this blog so effective and you do not have to bow out. I value your input and support and hope it continues into the future.

            I don’t know enough about Kara to get a good read and I try to make an effort to be receptive to questions or different points of view. I perceived that she was genuinely curious and needed information to fill the gaps so she could make sense of the dynamic on narcsite, however, I could be wrong. Directness, honesty and humor go a long way in facilitating communication and most of the people on narcsite seem very open to others chiming in and sharing their views. Please feel free to interject anytime, because I will be doing so with you and the others here, if you don’t mind.

        1. WhoCares says:

          Hello Kara,

          I’m happy to see the contributions of a psychotherapist here…I’m sure there are others but I think few come right out and say so – I appreciate you being open that way. I second you on your blog suggestion to HG; I’d love to read that too!

          With regard to the ensuing comments; I think some of your enquiries offended the sensitivities of those (including myself) who have actually invested much effort in examing their own role in narcissistic entanglements and their particular contributions here on the blog.

          I just wanted to share my 2 cents here with regard to empaths being able to recognize and own their responsibility to being aware of how they interact here and the intent behind it.

          Even if we felt like we are being duped or controlled somehow by HG, he has provided the information to counteract that – we need only implement it. I’m constantly assessing my interactions here and weighing the time or involvement I commit to commenting on the blog (in awareness of the fact that I know I’m attracted to narcissists and susceptible to re-entanglement and that I feel a connection to many commenters here) because I have real life commitments of course. But I have to say that it is a real ‘give and take’ and I receive back very much from my conversations here with others.
          I recently when through such a debilitating depression that I thought I’d have to seek medication just so I could function but I literally could barely manage appointments for both mental health and physiological health because I have no reliable childcare etc. at this particular time and I don’t wish to involve my child in those appointments.

          I did manage to speak to someone at a walk-in mental health crisis clinic simply to decompress (stress levels were through the roof) and then get some medication for what appeared to be symptoms of a two week long migraine attack (although I did not identify it as such because I have no history of migraines and it was all the same symptoms but only pressure – with no actual pain).

          I have to say that those appointments were important but I really did rely heavily on the blog because I was extremely reticent to attempt to re-explain to someone in any “professional” field what I’m going through and what I’ve been through. People here ‘get it.’ Without having me having to indulge the question “Please start from the beginning and tell me what the matter is….”

          I’m now on the other side of that depressive episode and instead of dampening down the symptoms etc. with meds I came out of it with some very useful insights into my own behaviours and tendencies. It meant a lot to be able to read and comment on the blog during that time – especially when for about 3 days I could barely manage to get out of bed – which is not like me at all.

          Anyway, I’m glad you’re here and commenting.

          1. Whitney says:

            I thought we were all trying to impress HG 🙌 He is naturally attractive to women.

            Kara, do you see a therapist to talk about your father?

          2. WhoCares says:

            Hi Whitney,

            I know you were directing your post to Kara, but I wanted to comment.

            “I thought we were all trying to impress HG 🙌 He is naturally attractive to women.”

            Are we? Is it not possible that it looks this way simply as a byproduct of us implementing the high quality knowledge here, and engaging further because we want to learn more – add to that; that HG is simply an interesting person to talk to?

          3. WendyRhoades says:

            Hi Whitney, Kara here. Changed my name to an alias because I’m talking so much about myself.

            I have had years of therapy and my father was discussed ad naseum. I don’t feel like it’s helped all that much in that particular area.

            I still have trouble feeling angry at him, feel guilty that I’m not in contact and am still compulsively seductive. I’ve gotten much better about the compuslively seductive and that probably has been the work of my therapists.

            I do not think I’ll ever fully resolve it. My father has left a mark. But I have a good life. I don’t have much to complain about it especially compared to others.

          4. nunya biz says:

            Whitney, have you tried EMDR or any related modalities? What do you think of them?

          5. Whitney says:

            WhoCares, I was also directing to you!

            You have done so well. You are so successful, despite your past. You are a very intelligent woman! Probably why you don’t attract victim Narcs- they are intimidated. I think victim Narcs are mostly lessers. They don’t rely on intellect or looks for fuel.

            I know what you mean about having mixed feelings. Guilt, love, anger, hate. Because it’s your parent. And you were trained from a young age to care for them. You hate what they’ve done but you also love them.

            I have a friend with a father who is a victim Narc, and she is ‘compulsively seductive’ (in my interpretation of what that means). I think she derives her self-worth from male attention, and she doesn’t say no. I thought it was because she didn’t know how to say no, but it’s because she doesn’t want to. She also derives self-worth from helping people.

            It sounds like you’ve been through horrific things. I’m inspired by your strength 💖

          6. WhoCares says:


            “I think victim Narcs are mostly lessers. They don’t rely on intellect or looks for fuel.”

            Mine was a victim narc who relies on both looks and sympathy.

          7. FYC says:

            Hello WhoCares, I missed your comment above and wanted to say I am so sorry to hear about your depression episode. My heart goes out to you for your struggle during that time and I’m so happy to hear it is in your past.

            A friend of mine suffered severe depression in silence (due to shame she told no one) after a breakup with a narcissist who triangulated her with her soon to be replacement, after three years together and planning their future. She discovered the woman he was ‘just friends’ with was far more than that and they broke up. She attempted suicide after a Hoover at the depths of her depression (after he already moved in with the replacement). I was so shocked when I found out (she lives far away). Before this happened, she had painted the perfect couple picture so I had no idea. After she recovered, we talked a great deal and I sent her narcsite links. She is much better now that she understands what she was dealing with. Before reading HG’s works, she thought it was somehow because she was not enough. That is one of the best things about HG’s work here; it makes everything crystal clear. It also empowers us to prevent further narcissistic abuse.

            I also agree with your comment below, I have never felt attracted to HG romantically (no offense), nor a need to impress. I admire and appreciate his work, intellect and humor. The kindness and insight shared by others is also appreciated and helpful. For me, It’s all about gratitude.

          8. WhoCares says:


            I appreciate your comment. Thank-you for reading. I’m over that, yes, it was weird and not like me, but the more I tried to force myself out of it the more it got worse and seem to contribute to further physiological stress. I’ve been mostly free of my narc’s influence for a while but I was having to review an entire box of old documents (to resolve financial matters) and that was pretty triggering – plus, where I’m living my privacy was invaded a bit (not with malicious intent) but it still felt like a violation and I couldn’t express feelings (I stuffed them so as not to hurt the people who have been most supportive, gracious and patient with me and my situation) because I was so stressed that I was worried about the effect of letting my emotions loose, so mostly kept to myself…still ended up hurting people. (I really need to find my own living space, which is in progress at the moment.)
            I do understand your friend’s situation; that sounds completely heart-wrenching. I’m sorry to hear that she reached the point of feeling that suicide was an answer to her pain. (I didn’t feel that way, but I did begin to feel at risk of a mental breakdown during my episode.) I’m so glad she had a friend like you that she could confide in; that’s so important. I do understand the shame and suffering in silence – I’m a very private person (you wouldn’t know that from my comments here likely) but I didn’t speak out about my relationship (good or bad parts) with my narc for nearly a decade. I’m working through the shame. I’m so glad you shared HG’s work with your friend; as we all know the clarity and peace of mind it can bring.

            I agree with your comment on gratitude. I can see how it’s easy to feel ‘something’ towards the person that HG describes himself to be but that is only truly what we imagine in our heads. Now, as for the products of his mind!? Yep, that’s where my attraction and appreciation is directed.

          9. WhoCares says:


            I appreciate your comment. Thank-you for reading. I’m over that, yes, it was weird and not like me, but the more I tried to force myself out of it the more it got worse and seem to contribute to further physiological stress. I’ve been mostly free of my narc’s influence for a while but I was having to review an entire box of old documents (to resolve financial matters) and that was pretty triggering – plus, where I’m living my privacy was invaded a bit (not with malicious intent) but it still felt like a violation and I couldn’t express feelings (I stuffed them so as not to hurt the people who have been most supportive, gracious and patient with me and my situation) because I was so stressed that I was worried about the effect of letting my emotions loose, so mostly kept to myself…still ended up hurting people. (I really need to find my own living space, which is in progress at the moment.)

            I do understand your friend’s situation; that sounds completely heart-wrenching. I’m sorry to hear that she reached the point of feeling that suicide was an answer to her pain. (I didn’t feel that way, but I did begin to feel at risk of a mental breakdown during my episode.) I’m so glad she had a friend like you that she could confide in; that’s so important. I do understand the shame and suffering in silence – I’m a very private person (you wouldn’t know that from my comments here likely) but I didn’t speak out about my relationship (good or bad parts) with my narc for nearly a decade. I’m working through the shame. I’m so glad you shared HG’s work with your friend; as we all know the clarity and peace of mind it can bring.

            I agree with your comment on gratitude. I can see how it’s easy to feel ‘something’ towards the person that HG describes himself to be but that is only truly what we imagine in our heads. Now, as for the products of his mind!? Yep, that’s where my attraction and appreciation is directed.

            FYC – (or anyone for that matter) any practical suggestions of dealing with near uncontainable anger? (I was recalling your post on dealing with an inner critical voice.)

            Seriously. I’m still having to review documents that require me to recollect my ex’s past behaviours and right about now I’m oscillating between crying, swallowing the anger and bashing in everything around me. None of which are healthy or constuctive.

            I’m quite open to suggestions.

          10. NarcAngel says:

            This sounds simplistic and may not be easy for everyone to acheive depending on their stage, but it is acheivable if you work on it. I truly believe humour got me through the darkness. When I was/am laughing or making people laugh it blinds the darkness. I try to see the humour in a look or a comment I remember or experience. Much like we laughed at the ridiculous statements thread. Go to comedy clubs, watch comedians on youtube, pass over the news and drama content on television and watch Big Bang. Dance by yourself with music on high volume. Hang out with your kid. Let out your silly and make other people laugh. Anything that makes you curl your smile upward. Laugh your ass off until you view your participation in that period as a cameo on a bad sitcom that was cancelled after one season Because thats what it was and no one remembers those.

          11. Lou says:

            I really like the Big Bang Theory. It always makes me laugh.

          12. WhoCares says:


            Thank-you for that. And it’s not simplistic at all; it is indicative of what I need. I do need humour and silliness…and normalcy – I desperately need a return to normalcy, or at least a new normal…it’s been a long road getting there and I can better see what I want it to look like…every time it appears to be within reach; it is still just out of reach. And fuck, it’s like my criteria for “normal” are hardly elaborate – I have never asked for the moon. I don’t even want to be on this site bitching about him anymore. I’m done. I’m resentful that I’m even discussing him now. That’s not what I’m here for (although that is a great thing about this place; and I smirk whenever I see the ‘vent your spleen’ lately). It’s just that I don’t want to vent anymore – but the bastard keeps giving me reasons for the need to vent on (like at the top of my lungs) on top of everything else. I don’t want to be here spewing my guts – I actually come here to feel normal. You know; to contribute to great conversations on a topic of particular interest to me, to joke around yes but to learn too.

            I know they are never done with us but I’m just *so* past done with him…

          13. WhoCares says:

            So I vented.

            Thank-you HG.

          14. WhoCares says:

            And sorry: criterion

          15. WhoCares says:

            Yep. Criterion. One thing: peace.
            Peace, in order to do the things we enjoyed together.

            Still want it. Only now I want it for myself.

            I don’t give a shit what he does.

          16. WhoCares says:


            I wanted to reply again because I do recognize the value of humour and I so appreciate that aspect of your personality. Some of your remarks just cut through the crap so effectively – and one cannot help but laugh out loud at the visuals they produce.

            Much love and respect NA ♡

          17. FYC says:

            Hi WC, yes I understand and have some thoughts and links for you. Give me a bit of time to do this justice (I believe it is not uncommon). I will reply again soon.

          18. WhoCares says:

            Thank-you, I’d pretty much consider anything at this juncture.

          19. WendyRhoades says:

            Whitney, you’re so kind. Thank you so much.

            I think we’re using more or less the same definition of compulsively seductive. Interesting your friend with a similarly victim narc father is like that too.

            I remember HG saying somewhere that victims n’s are always lessers. I’m saying mine is a victim because he’s a drug addict who lives off his IPPS. He didn’t act particularly victim-like with me though. He’s not stupid and he has nice manners in most situations. Always paid when we went out and ordered for me in restaurants. He does not know how to hail a cab, which he tried to lie about when it became so obvious. But that was endearing.

            Anyway, I appreciate your kind words and your generous interpretation that he is just intimated of me. I’d love to think that but I doubt it as his IPPS makes a lot of money and his IPSS is in her 20s and very good looking.

          20. nunya biz says:

            “Whitney, have you tried EMDR or any related modalities? What do you think of them?”

            Ugh sorry, Wendy, not Whitney.

          21. FYC says:

            Hello WC, With regard to processing anger post narcissistic abuse, a few thoughts:

            Your anger is just. You were abused. All of your emotions are valid. If you have difficulty processing anger, or you purposely bury anger, you may cause yourself serious harm emotionally and physically. Emotions are meant to be felt and processed to enable us to achieve resolution and healing.

            As HG has stated, it is best to refrain from expressing your anger with your narcissist. No good will come of it and the cycle will continue.

            It is important to find a safe way to express your anger. If you live alone, you can find a room that affords privacy and talk and yell it out. Get it all out. If you do not live alone, you can write it out. Writing helps you process you emotions and recruits your intellectual processing. Leave no stone unturned.

            After you are done, use a process recommended to PTSD victims. Take your written account of abuse and anger and create a process of release by formally destroying the document.

            As you perform the release process, say something to the effect of, “Your abuse was (painful, cruel, etc.). It was wrong. In destroying this document, I release myself from the pain of your abuse. No part of you has any hold over me. I release my anger. I am free.” Then safely burn or otherwise destroy your documentation of the abuse and anger and dispose of the destroyed remains in a symbolic fashion (trash, flush, bury). This process may seem a bit silly or odd, but it caused the mind and emotions to process and release the trauma.

            Other useful means of purging anger (after feeling it versus burying it) are guided meditation or prayer, high impact exercise or spending time in nature to work through any remaining thoughts. This will reduce your cortisol production as well. I really like NarcAngel’s recommendation too.

            If you still feel triggered after this process, follow the trigger and purge it too. And of course avoid narcissists at every turn.

            I am going to bastardize a Budda quote:

            “Holding on to anger is like grasping a hot coal to throw at your narcissist; you are the only one who gets burned.”

            I also like:

            “Resentment is like drinking poison and waiting for the other person to die.” – Malachy McCourt

            WC, you are the same beautiful person. You have lost nothing of you, but gained a world of wisdom in the most painful way. Now you deserve to be completely free.

          22. HG Tudor says:

            Accurate observations.

          23. WhoCares says:


            I forgot to say…I did venture out to my friend’s garage and verbally assaulted the interior of her car.

            The garage – and car – are still intact and I do feel somewhat better.

          24. WhoCares says:


            I just wanted emphasize how much I appreciate your validation of my feelings and the gathering of the information and quotations you shared. I was much more able to effectively and directly communicate with my lawyer today as a result of your gesture.

            Thank-you ♡

          25. Whitney says:

            Oh yes Whocares. From reading HG’s book I thought victim Narcs were mostly Lessers. But I know they can also be Midrange.

            I tried to help a man who was threatening to kill himself, without knowing about Victim Narcs. He was one. But also had cerebral tendencies. I still need to get a Narcissist Detector on him. The Narcissist Detectors are very educational! I’ve gotten 2 so far.

          26. WhoCares says:

            Oh, Whitney – I’m so sorry that you got entangled in this manner:

            ” I tried to help a man who was threatening to kill himself, without knowing about Victim Narcs. He was one.”

            What a horrible way to get sucked in.
            Glad you did a narc detector consult with HG – AND that you found it educational. I have found the consult packages most helpful and educational as well!

          27. FYC says:

            Hello WhoCares, I am grateful you found it useful. I am here to give back. You may also like this quote:

            “My scars remind me that I did indeed survive my deepest wounds. That in itself is an accomplishment. And they bring to mind something else, too. They remind me that the damage life has inflicted on me has, in many places, left me stronger and more resilient. What hurt me in the past has actually made me better equipped to face the present.”
            ― Steve Goodier

            As a side note, grief can mascarade as anger. So be sure you take care to honor your loss. It was real also. Healing takes time. I can only imagine your shining strength after you heal completely. Take care, one WhoCares.

          28. WhoCares says:

            Thank-you so much FYC. And you are so right; I know that grief is in the mix. You do understand. My focus, post-entanglement, has been protection and healing. The element of protection has swallowed my time and energy; I have given it my best.
            The healing part…well, yes a scar is no good if there is still something festering underneath. I truly haven’t had time – or the liberty – to address the emotions and they are making themselves known.

            On the subject of grief and anger (I know I’ve mentioned it elsewhere here) the movie ‘A Monster Calls’, on Netflix is worth watching – if you don’t mind movies with strong emotions – I know Contagions do mind. Apart from that, I think that it is a very visually beautiful movie.

          29. FYC says:

            Hello WhoCares, Yes, I do understand. I stay in my head here as it is safer to do so when engaging in a topic that could easily engulf the heart. I stand with you. I know you will prevail and be all the wiser and stronger. I agree it would be very worth while to surgically remove any sharp object remaining in your wound, and finish with a bit of scar revision. Honor your feelings and take time to be very good to you. I will check out that movie. Thank you.

          30. FYC says:

            Hello WhoCares, I also replied earlier to your last comment, but that one either was not sent properly by me or it remains in moderation. I wanted to let you know, I rented the movie you suggested. Thank you. I found it on Prime as it is no longer available on Netflix. I enjoyed the monster’s fables and the boy did an excellent job. I think this film would be especially helpful for children to make sense of life’s struggles and to know it’s okay to have any feeling and that they need to be felt. Of course, I cried, but it was worth the watching. It felt healing too.

            I am very sensitive to the feelings and emotions of others, but do not consider mine contagion level. I am very much a magnet in real life. I have listened to many people’s stories from strangers that feel compelled to spontaneously share something personal no matter the setting. I’ve even been called over to while walking by to listen to someone’s story. I think they sense my empathy and have a longing to be seen, heard and understood. I consider it a gift mostly, but I am careful too. I limit my time, protect myself, and never get involved after the fact.

            When feeling emotional overload about something, I like to spend time alone to work through my feelings. I also use this time to employ intellectual understanding to grasp what is at hand so I can either take a better action or understand the whys. Understanding the why of the what can lead to acceptance even if it changes nothing, you can let go.

            Considering what you have shared so far, it occurred to me that you may enjoy a TED talk by Guy Winch, PhD on emotional first aide. Here is the link:


            He also has one on heartbreak.

            Thanks again for sharing, WhoCares. I hope you feel much better soon.

          31. WhoCares says:


            I’m so glad you enjoyed the movie, A Monster Calls. I recently found the book at the library and while I haven’t read it until the end, so far I’ve found it follows the movie very closely (which is always a nice surprise) but of course the added element of the creature effects and the watercolours make the movie a visual treat – at least for me.

            About others spontaneously sharing their stories with you; yes, personally, I can see how they might feel quite comfortable doing so 🙂 …good that you are mindful to protect yourself at the same time.

            I agree with you entirely regarding spending time to process strong feelings and apply intellectual understanding to them – and working towards acceptance.

            Thank-you for the TED talk by Guy Winch. I did have a listen. It was an interesting talk; he is a good speaker and has a pleasant voice. His views on emotional hygiene make sense and found the statistical relationship between ruminating and negative health outcomes of particular interest. I do wonder though about what studies or stats he is referencing because I’d be curious to know if the relationship between the two is directly causal or simply a correlation. I have more views on rumination but want some time to look up research before commenting further.

            Thank-you for the well-wishes; I do feel better lately. My practical issues aren’t resolved but they are feeling more manageable at the moment. And the emotions attached are not so overwhelming. Your very supportive comments and contributions have helped immensely and are much appreciated, FYC!

            (Sorry if this doesn’t fall under your comment; I’ve removed the WordPress app from my phone so now it’s more difficult to reply directly to comments and I don’t get notifications at all.)

          32. FYC says:

            Hello WhoCares, I hope this finds the right reply slot too as I am trusting WordPress to do so from auto reply.

            WC, You are most welcome. I am grateful you found the information and perspectives of interest. I have very much appreciated our conversations and learned from you as well.

            On the whole, I am very blessed in life and have significant gratitude. Of course, I have suffered in different ways. At the time it happened and even after it was very, very painful. Yet once I achieved understanding of the other (thank you, HG), and greater self awareness (again, thank you), I find that even the painful experiences help me grow and evolve in wisdom and strength. Yes, I have much more to learn, but so far, the wisdom I have gained has brought healing, freedom and joy. Now I desire to give back.

            WhoCares, I look forward to your future posts and I thank you for your kindness.

        2. Narc noob says:

          All the articles I’ve read he’s shone the N light well and behaved in a manipulative and controlling way. 10/10 for effort. I don’t think he likes to endure the sessions though; at least it comes across that way.

      2. Narc noob says:

        Is one of the Good doctors SM in disguise?

        1. HG Tudor says:


    2. Liderien says:


      1. FYC says:

        Liderien, Thank you for that clarification. That seems a far more appropriate word. Most appreciated.

  9. saskia says:

    When a mother tells her daughter – completely out of context – “I was a bad mother” – is this faux remorse, designed to achieve a desired reaction?

    1. HG Tudor says:

      If the mother is a narcissist, yes it is.

      1. saskia says:

        Thank you HG, that’s what I am currently trying to figure out.

      2. Caroline says:

        Something Mona wrote re: hate and the narcissist is something I’d like to understand better. Do you feel all narcissists have a hatred of themselves — or is it more that they can feel shame at times – but then go into defense mode and “blame transfer” it into hatred onto others? Or does it vary?

        1. HG Tudor says:

          Please read ‘Your Fault’.

          1. Caroline says:

            Well, I’m not overjoyed with the title (and it, pretty much, answered my question), so…

            Yes. Yes, I’d like to understand more about the specifics/intricacies. I’ll read it. Thank you for the reply.

  10. a4u says:

    A few thoughts…
    In answer to your question, HG, I believe the good doctors ask about your family (in addition to adhering to Freudian models of therapy) as they believe it will shed light on family dynamics and individuals that played a part in your original narcissistic injury. I assume they hope to understand and help shift your perspective. I doubt very sincerely that would be a fruitful effort. Picking at a scab does not aide in healing a wound. In this case, the wound is the original narcissistic injury and the scab represents your defense mechanism. Problem is, even if you told them everything, it would not account for your experience as a child.

    Children, from birth to maturity, can only perceive the world (and any real or perceived injury) at the point of development the brain is capable of processing. Babies are hardwired to survive. Their skills at birth are attention seeking for sustenance and positive nurturing. Without both, any number of problems can arise including attachment disorders (John Bowlby, Mary Ainsworth, et al). The timing and quality of early experiences even influences the development of the brain’s architecture (Sharon E. Fox, M.D., et al). So even if the good doctors were informed and could pinpoint what they believed caused the original narcissistic injury, it would not change the perspective you had as a child nor the outcome.

    That is not to say that you cannot change, but any change is extremely unlikely unless you perceive a necessity for such change, and to have that perception would necessitate your belief in a beneficial outcome. Further, change of any kind for anyone requires personal insight, a willingness to break through denial, and a believe that abandoning tried-and-true coping mechanisms would yield a better experience.

    HG, you have tremendous insight, awareness and intelligence. That said, having read your work on this sight, it seems your perceived cost of any real change would outweigh your perceived benefits. Honestly, it might. But, for those of us who have an abundance of empathy, we would want you to have the peace, joy and love that can be experienced when life and relationships are not entirely transactional.

    Net net, I think your response to your therapists is reasonable. Your work, in my opinion (I’m not a psychologist), is exceptional and more insightful that many scholarly articles on the subject. Your work is invaluable and very helpful and healing for many who have suffered from a relationship they experienced with a narcissist. So whether you decide to make any changes or not, you are amazingly valuable and appreciated.

    Wishing you the best.

  11. SuperXena says:

    …. ..

    1. SuperXena says:

      Just testing notifications

      1. K says:

        I thought it was a message in morse code.

        1. SuperXena says:

          Ha,ha K. It was! You are observant! Do you know what I wrote ?

          My comments will be cryptic from now on ( just joking of course). I will have to change the code now that you know!

          I hope all is fine with you.

          1. K says:

            Ha ha! I ran it through the translator and all that came up was two question marks. ??

            All is well, thank you!

          2. SuperXena says:

            Hello K,
            Good to know you are fine!
            What I wrote was “Hi”

            Best wishes to you.

          3. K says:

            My translator sucked, thanks for the link! I hope you are doing well, too.

            Warm regards.

          4. SuperXena says:

            You are welcome K!

  12. mollyb5 says:

    One thing that’s scary perhaps to a man …. is crying and the way the person near oneself when one cries. So if you feel you will cry it’s what deep introspection is about at first … , HG , need to feel safe with the therapist you are near . You would fear at some level you will be slapped again…or the therapist could make a face that wounds you …ThAT should not happen with a true empathic therapist . They will cry with you and hand you Kleenex or listen empathically as you talk thru the tears ….you must trust this therapist would allow you to cry .

  13. mollyb5 says:

    HG , is the picture of bread referring to …the bread of life ?

    1. HG Tudor says:


      1. mollyb5 says:

        What then ?

        1. HG Tudor says:

          See the answers given by Lou and NA.

          1. mollyb5 says:

            Oh that’s funny. I’ve never heard of that saying …I like it .

      2. mollyb5 says:

        Breaking bread with family and friends ..

    2. NarcAngel says:

      Its a bagel

      1. MB says:

        I’ve never heard the saying “who pinched your bagel”. I’ve heard, “who licked the red off your candy” and “who pissed in your cornflakes”

        1. Clarece says:

          My ex-husband from Louisiana used to say “who shit in your purse?”. lol

    3. Lou says:

      Mollyb5, I wondered about the image of this post too and I think it has to do with Doctor’s O question to HG “who has pinched your bagel this week then?”
      It is a pinched bagel, I suppose.

    4. Lou says:

      I don’t suppose; it is a pinched bagel.

      1. HG Tudor says:


  14. saskia says:

    I agree with you, Kathy and Clarece, on the doctor doing her job which is to occasionally dig deeper or push and confront when appropriate but ‘not playing the damn game’ is still in one’s right as is avoiding pain that seems unbearable at that point or questions one feels clearly uncomfortable with. I had a similar thought about boundaries when reading the article and found it important that it was at least mentioned and considered in this context.

  15. MommyPino says:

    Mr. Tudor I have read that children raised by a narcissist becomes either a narcissist or a codependent. I am not a narcissist, so does that automatically make me a codependent? So I’m not really an empath but a codependent?

    1. HG Tudor says:

      What you have read is incorrect.

      1. mommypino says:

        Thank you! I’m glad!

    2. Renarde says:

      No not quite. I am a SE of two Ns. My brother is also a N.

      1. mommypino says:

        Thank you Renarde!

        1. Renarde says:

          No worries! Also, I’m of a mind that the couplings of two Ns happen much more than you think. Possibly because there have always been less Es around with respect to the Ns and now it’s also entwined with the concept that the number of Ns is growing in number, if accounts are to be believed.

  16. MommyPino says:

    My matrinarc made my life so hard but I am grateful that she raised me with the best of her minimal abilities. There was a time in my life that she was the only one that I had, with my dad’s financial support too because she never worked, but I am grateful for that. She verbally and physically abused me but she also protected me from being abused by others. And yes, she was too protective and controlling and it has caused me to struggle with forming my identity and experiencing life in its fullness but it could be worse. I forgive her. I just need to make sure that I raise my kids with the gifts that God gave me that my mom didn’t have such as my education and opportunities. I learned from her mistakes and I will do my best to not repeat them.

  17. Lou says:

    Namaste HG
    Did Matrinarc ever hit you when you were a child?
    If she did, was it often?

    1. HG Tudor says:

      Yes. No.

  18. WhoCares says:

    I meant you are absolutely right; it was self-preservation for me to stop feeling anything anymore…to choose to *not* feel saved me.

    And I can’t help but go where this thought leads me…when we say that a narc is ‘choosing’ to not feel, are we then denying their right to self-preservation and calling them ‘inhuman’?

  19. Kathy Mor says:

    I want to meet your mother. Face to face.

    1. mollyb5 says:

      Who s mother ….mine ? Lol

      1. Kathy Mor says:

        How old are you? 5?

        1. mollyb5 says:

          I’m on an iPhone. The way your comment was shown and you didn’t address HG , I wasn’t sure if you meant what I said in the question above yours . Sorry

      2. mollyb5 says:

        Kathy Mor …

        I thought you were responding to my comment about my mother-in law. The way the responses lined up …since your comment was ….”i want to meet your mother face to face.” Sorry it looked like you made a comment to me or K . Iam a little older than 5 ,thank you .

        1. K says:

          Ha ha ha…I thought Kathy Mor wanted to meet HG’s mother face to face. Sometimes, the threads can become quite confusing. I am not sure who is 5-years-old…but, what the hell, thanks for the laugh.

          1. mollyb5 says:

            She replied to me supposedly ….. I received her reply . I’m on my little iPhone , thumb typing.

    2. Renarde says:

      Whenever I think of HG’s mum (and also bizarrely #3’s (GEN) mum), I think of the British actress Patricia Hodge.

      Just spent five mins trying to think of her surname. I kept thinking of Patricia Routledge. This in itself, is pretty hilarious as ‘Keeping up Appearances’ is a study in the Matriarch par excellence.

      Didn’t Hyacinth have a son named Sheldon? As I was nearly ‘Mercedes’, I think I lucked in on that one.

      Mind you, a uber-MN (No, I’m NOT putting the R in!) I know of called her son ‘Tarquin.’

      HG!!! You aren’t Tarquin are you? If so; I pity you very greatly having THAT as a Mother.

      1. Kathy Mor says:

        Joan Crawford is my mother’s twin. Mommie Dearest. The same abuse…

  20. mollyb5 says:

    My husband mother is jealous of me. Lol

    1. K says:

      She is jealous of you because she views you as competition and erosion of her control over her son.

  21. mollyb5 says:

    I make my holidays my own . My narc will not go to his mothers anymore. My kids do because she’s not as toxic to them . She did grab my daughters thigh in the backseat one time that mad me want to punch her lol

  22. mollyb5 says:

    Well what I see with my narc husbands mother is she wanted him to be a man too young …act like a man ..she slapped him when he cried and so did his father . He had to be the adult male of the household when his dad was gone …she had no idea how to raise a boy …( she was raised by alcoholics and the only child …she hated her parents). She made her son the surrogate husband for herself

    1. Chihuahuamum says:

      Hi molly…wow your mil sounds exactly like my mother. Alcoholic parents and an only child. Divorced from my dad and still obsessed with him thru my brother. My brother became her “husband son”. There was never any incest but she made him her anchor. He in turn uses her for supply and ego boosting. A very toxic codependancy im glad to no longer be a part of. My stepdad is her midrange brainwashed narcissistic codependant. Hes been conditioned to stand at my brothers altar.

  23. Fuel on the Shelf says:

    I ofter wonder about narcissism as as part of mental illness. In dealing with my own mentally ill mother (who was diagnosed as schizophrenic) I notice many narc characteristics. Physical violence, no boundaries, projecting, denial. She did get a formal diagnosis many years ago and has been on medication that changes every few years. Of course reading your blog makes me start to wonder if she was misdiagnosed and is just a Narc and the medication she is on is actually making her more crazy. If a Narc were to be on medication (willingly of course as you say they are in such denial that anything is wrong with them) I often wonder what the result would be….

    Just current thoughts in my head as I ponder my own mother who I do not think is a Narc but sure has many boxes ticked off so to say!

    1. Renarde says:

      Hey there lovely. Are you reading my mind? You swine! 🙂 🙂 x

      I’m thinking a lot about the female Ns. I have also been pondering your very point exactly. Forgive me if I get this wrong but my question to myself is, ‘Could an N fake a SERIOUS mental illness in order to get fuel/attention?’

      My jury is still out on this but it’s niggling at me. V v quick ‘potted’ history.

      Matrinarc (MN) marries Patrinarc (PN)

      Seven years later, I crop up. She has a complete an utter psychotic episode directly after my birth requiring immediate hospitalisation. This is v v rare Happens in 1 in 1000 births. Nine months later and several Electro Conductive Therapy sessions and she is released.

      Same thing happens for my brother who is born 3 or so years later.

      Then a break for many years. It beings again when I am 13/14 and bro is 10/11. This happens a further two times. Both of us are forbidden to talk about with others what is going on. Including school.

      To directly answer your own question Fuel On the Shelf, MN is on a v v low dose of anti psychs called in the UK Risperidone

      Physical violence, no boundaries, projecting, denial.

      Check, check and check!

      Even extending to wanting to know EXACTLY what I get up to in bed with a partner. Not withstanding I am a forty year old, independent woman A Dominatrix and a BDSM educator. Totally and utterly inappropriate behaviour for her to DEMAND to know what I do in bed. Entirely usual behaviour for a N though.

      I have no answers FOTS but I think we are asking the right questions.

      1. Fuel on the Shelf says:

        LOL Renarde, I guess I must be…it is nice to see someone on the same wavelength!

        I wrote a more descriptive response about my mentally ill mother and how her behavior toward me as a child has manifested in my relationship sexually with my MMRN. It is on another article’s thread….

        I found it so that I do not need to re-type (if you are curious and wish to read it):

        Anyway, what you have described is so eerie and creepy compared to parts of my situation!!! My mother was diagnosed with severe PPD and then later severe depression and schizophrenia when I was 6 months old. She was hospitalized twice for trying to take her life. She was/has been on Risperdone as well. I did not have any siblings though. The doctors told her with her meds and illness she was advised to never get pregnant again.

        She has overstepped on all boundaries of my life. I could give examples but I hate wasting my breath on her. I have cut her out of my life and she continually tries to break through like nothing ever happened and I did not tell her to leave me alone. (for example still mailing me things an having relatives email me on her behalf). I do still talk to my father which makes it difficult as he is bound to her and refuses to leave.

        I am curious to exchange further thoughts with you about this but I also worry about dredging up something more awful than the comment link I posted above. I already compared a memory to something she did to me as a child (which I hated and made me miserable) to a sexual behavior I now engage in with my mid-range piano boy Narc (which I find thrilling, despite my disgust at having endured such as a child).

        I feel like I am a Pandora’s box waiting to be opened lately and it scares the shit out of me.

        1. Renarde says:

          Hello lovely

          I wrote a more descriptive response about my mentally ill mother and how her behavior toward me as a child has manifested in my relationship sexually with my MMRN. It is on another article’s thread….

          Have read this and responded on that thread. Thank you.

          Can I advise caution here? I can see (in fact I know from my own experience) that just because something happened in our childhood that we later go on to enjoy as an adult, doesn’t necessarily mean that those two concepts are linked. They could be… but not necessarily so.

          I perceive strongly that you have a sense of guilt and shame wrapped up in this and I totally hear you and understand you. Even if they were linked, there is no need to feel these negative emotions. Give yourself permission to release them as they serve no purpose and could possibly be twisted and used against you by the now infamous piano man.

          PN would say, there is nothing new under the sun. As long as it’s not illegal or a paraphilia then let the good times roll!

          Shame, oh yes my old friend. MN dearly wanted to ‘put this on me’. Be ashamed of my body. Nice girls do this or they certainly don’t do that. Keep your legs together. Don’t wear those shoes. nor that top for going out, you slut. No sex before marriage. PROMISE ME! No, you and your boyfriend cannot sleep in the same bed. I don’t care if he’s your fiance.

          On and on through the years she went before finally culminating in her wanting a blow by blow account of my sex life. (Jeez ma, just read frickin’ Fet FFS). So I formed an opinion of her which was, that she was a sexually repressed prude herself.

          Only in the last few months have I adjusted this. No she bloody well isn’t. Classic case of do what I say, not what I do. In fact, I perceive her to be quite the exhibitionist, maybe even more than I am and I’m bad enough. Possibly affairs herself while PN at work. In fact very probably.

          No, what I perceive MN has done is to deploy the much darker aspect of the sex manipulation that HG has described. But this is the twisting of a healthy, normal sex life, sexual responses and using the concept of ‘sex as weapon’. Sex as weapon is sex as control and she was utilising it in EXACTLY the same way. To get me so wound up about the whole subject, it bound me closer to her.

          I feel like I am a Pandora’s box waiting to be opened lately and it scares the shit out of me.

          In that case, go with your gut instinct. Always. It is possible that there is repressed stuff in there. In time, I think you know it needs to be opened but only at your own pace and only on your own terms. When that day comes, I will be here. As will others.

          1. Fuel on the Shelf says:

            Hi Renarde,

            Yes I saw your other reply, thank you. As soon as I typed each of those stories out I immediately linked those 2 things (the smacking and the hair pulling) and I questioned myself like WHY? Why would I enjoy that? Your other response makes sense though so thank you. I am not sure if it was guilt or shame (perhaps underlying) but it was mainly shock like “WHY THE F WOULD I NOW ENJOY THAT?” Know what I mean?

            For some reason my mother never overstepped in my sex life so I cannot relate in that regard. As I said I do not think she is truly a narc, just mentally ill with some of the same boxes ticked. My father on the other hand would never leave her (despite knowing how unhealthy she was) however the rest of my family were pretty sure that my father was getting some on the side from the random flavor of the week girlfriend. For him I think it was more about the sex though. My father is definitely not a narc.

            “It is possible that there is repressed stuff in there.”

            I am sure there is. I have a feeling that the dynamic of my relationship with Piano boy probably relates more to all of this than I originally thought but that is enough dredging up for the time being.

      2. flutterbymorpho says:

        Yes I reckon so Renarde.. my husband has been on risperidone in the past ..but mental health team say he does not get psychosis, they have monitored him enough to know as one can’t quite control it.. he seemed to! Only got it in front of me! It’s like something out of the exorcist films.. I’ve been duped for years thinking he was ill.. though he has got a personality disorder, they say.. He plays the mental health card, and plays an ill victim! Too much to write about in detail though..

  24. Em says:

    HG why you see it as a game with the good doctors who are trying to help?

    1. HG Tudor says:

      Everything is a game.

      1. Em says:

        🤣 how did I know that would be the answer.

      2. windstorm says:

        “Everything is a game.”

        This made me laugh! Very true! My Pretzel would certainly agree with that!

        But do you think midrangers feel this way? Sometimes I sense them having fun playing with people and circumstances, but often they seem too serious and uptight. I wonder if it’s the dichotomy of their false self-image and their narcissism or their lack of confidence that they are in control that keeps them from seeing everything as a game?

        1. HG Tudor says:

          They won’t see it as a game because they will not see much of what they do as manipulative, but rather as a response to the unnecessary provocations of the victim. You will get some MRs who would like to think that they are some manipulative mastermind but they are actually not, a consequence of the gap between what they imagine themselves to be and what they actually are.

          1. windstorm says:

            Midrangers do often think they’re much smarter than they are. There’s no doubt of that. It’s one of those mixed blessings. Good because you can often see thru them and avoid their BS. Bad because they can really be irritating to work and deal with.

          2. HG Tudor says:

            Valid points. I detest them.

          3. Kathy Mor says:

            Me too!

      3. Fuel on the Shelf says:

        Windstorm…..your comment of “MRNs think they are smarter than they are” struck an opposite chord with me. They may think it but my MRN used to always say “I am not as smart as you think I am”. Maybe it was said for pity? He does exaggerate a lot. I liked 2 pics on FB once and within seconds I got a text “Please stop stalking my FB please”.

        1. Caroline says:

          “Please stop stalking my FB please”??

          Hold me back, Gabrielle!

          It’s so hard to explain how ticked off that makes me… yes, oh- tortured-one — who keeps Gabrielle tied to you through all form of manipulation — let’s pretend it’s all so beyond you, you sanctimonious faker/pity-player.

          That’s a prime example of what I mean by he annoys me (and the “please” is even more irritating)…

          I really wish I could think of something to get you to dump this guy.

          1. Fuel on the Shelf says:

            Sorry Caroline, I did not mean to throw a rock at the hornet’s nest of Piano boy tales. I was only sharing since this has just been on my mind as it was the last convo we had (over text) just about a week ago after a rather emotionally and sexually intense visit when I saw him.

            After the “stalking” comment he said I was “getting too close again” and he was feeling “uncomfortable again”. He then said I was obsessed with him and that he is “narrowly clinging to his sanity and was being pushed to the edge of comfort and patience” with me. And lastly “something has to change here before I lose my mind”.

            My reply was “It seems like you want some space again”.

            Him: “I am not abandoning you okay?” (he always says that when we have these discussions) and then “We just need to take a few steps back okay?”

            Dump him? You make it sound like we are BF/GF. I am a DLS. I do not think he would give a flying shit if I dumped him. Last year I went 5 months of no contact (at HIS request) and he did not give one iota of a shit. Then suddenly he started liking my pics and I reached out and….here we are.

            I have not reached out since this conversation and I do not plan to. And with his new baby arriving any day now, I will soon be the last thing on his mind anyway.

            Yeah the “please” irked me too. That is his moniker though. Always Mr. Nice Guy. Polite. Calm. Good mannered. With undertones of woe is me I am so tortured.

          2. Caroline says:

            Don’t be sorry, Gabrielle~you’re just being honest… it’s just hard to hear (see) his crap!

            I know you’re a “DLS,” but you absolutely can dump him, in that you decide it is not okay and make a bold standing-up-for-yourself statement… I’d love you to do that, for YOU. Not him.

            I do like hearing you “do not plan” to reach out to him… and maybe you can get that to a definitive “will not” reach out to him…and how many steps are we away from “won’t reply back” to him, eh?…you know where I’m going with this, girl.;-)

            But for now, I seriously need to get off this blog…I actually had an errant random thought: “My (former) narcissist would be so much better for her,” — LOL — yeah, I’m getting off here! (No, I’m not serious…but that I even thought that he’s a better deal is ridiculous… all narcissists are a bad deal!…I think the mid-rangers trigger so much annoyance in me that I can’t think straight!).

          3. Fuel on the Shelf says:

            “Won’t reply back to him”….? I doubt he is going to reach out to me for the time being. There was one time I did not reply to his text for 9 hours once. Maybe next time I can double that. I know where you are going with it.

            If I can just get through another few weeks I think I will be in a better spot. I was last intimate with him about a week ago and I am still feeling a little crazy in the head from it.

            Hey is your narc really better? If I know he is a narc in advance then he can just be a distraction right? Hmmmm.

            (I am just kidding!!!!!!)

            All kidding aside though, distractions would be good right now though….yes they would also likely be bad too. If one more person tells me “the best way to get over someone is to get under someone else” I may scream. LOL.

          4. Caroline says:

            Woohoo, 9 hours — I’ll take it! LOL… but it’s something – go you. We all get where we need to go in life one step at a time.

            That three-letter word is messing you up!… so maybe you can have some breathing space and clear your head. I like it.

            Yeah, my former is really better, lol… well, it’s all relative, but I say so because of certain aspects. I just gave KimE an update on that, on some new thread (Jealous of Your Contentment, I think?), but she actually pinged me a reply on way back on the March date of that article, if you’re curious.

            But no, you don’t need another narcissist! Maybe a good guy friend or two, but I say new hobbies instead, lol … I think you need more of you, in that you need to start feeling good about who you are.

            Yes, that’s what I say. More you, less men. XO!

        2. windstorm says:

          Ah, but Gabs, you are forgetting they lie like they breathe. What he says is not what he really thinks. Maybe that’s why he keeps you confused so much. You’re trying to make since of what he says and does, not remembering that you can never trust either one as truthful.

        3. Kathy Mor says:

          They are complete idiots. If you like the pic, you are stalking. If you don’t like it, you are ignoring him. They are the worst. Either way you are going to get punished. I can’t stand MRs.

      4. Fuel on the Shelf says:

        Windstorm….continuing my thought on “not as smart as you think I am…” … One time he told me “I sometimes forget how smart you are!” Gee, how nice. I am smart yet you forget. LOL.

        1. windstorm says:

          “I sometimes forget how smart you are!”

          Well that was a backhanded complement. I’d have probably said something like, “Really? Dangerous thing to forget.” That would make my Pretzel laugh, but might spook your Piano Man.

          1. Fuel on the Shelf says:

            I will save it for next time. I think my sarcastic reply at the time to that was “Ummm….okay, well I am glad you did not actually forget!”

            Of course I had no idea at the time it was backhanded.

          2. windstorm says:

            “Of course I had no idea at the time it was backhanded.”

            I have a hard time understanding this. That comment from a cerebral narc seems so obviously backhanded to me. I automatically distrust everything narcs say to me and screen it for possible sarcasm and double meaning. Maybe somewhat paranoid, but safest with narcs.

          3. windstorm says:

            A cerebral narc never forgets how intelligent anyone is.

          4. Fuel on the Shelf says:

            Of course he never forgets. Only when he pretends to. Also he always means what he says. Until he doesn’t.

            Like the time he told me to call him and then he forgot I was going to call and never answered the phone.

            And yeah I should have known it was backhanded. I would say “now I know for next time” but I have not heard much lately in the way of backhanded comments.

  25. Em says:

    HG – you acknowledge your abuse. That’s a positive and revealing step. Well done.
    Now to unravel the what and the why. Are you scared Or do you just relish the control of not going any further?

    1. Renarde says:

      Such an intriguing comment Em! I do not wish that to come across as patronising (though it may) or derogatory. Far from it. It’s a natural, E reaction to, let’s face it, pretty extreme stuff. But, again at the risk being patronising, it’s emotional thinking. Without wishing also to put words into HG’s mouth; this is how I perceive it.

      1 – HG is not mentally ill
      2 – HG is not acknowledging his abuse. He is documenting it. There is a difference
      3 – He is not scared in the common sense meaning of the word
      4 – He is absolutely capable of taking it beyond any of us could wildly imagine, if he so chose
      5 – The Good Drs pose a problem in so much as they are not truly empathic.(i.e. posses affective empathy) One or both of them believe it to be so, though. This slants the bias in questions and possibly puts him on edge. It’s either that or he detests them for their mediocre/middling of the road questions which seem to be ultra repetitive in nature.

      Look. If you are to read the interactions between them and him and if HG is to be believed and is writing verbatim, then to my mind, they both come across as a set of idiots.

      The female is cunning though. She senses rather than sees the Matralinial issue here. She prods at this, worrying like a terrier at a bone. Looking for the ER which, HG, occasionally gives.

      However, ‘worrying at a bone’ is not really a very classy way of doing it.

      It’s all pretty hopeless and simultaneously pretty funny. HG has expressed many times that he as no wish to be cured. The Drs will chip, chip away at this until they think (they hope) they get the Damascene moment where they have their breakthrough. Academic papers will be written, flowers thrown, champagne corks popped. Babies named ‘Tudor’ will be baptised. etc….

      It will never happen,

      The fact that neither of them can see it suggests an extremely narrow thinking and results’ orientated goals on their parts. It’s either that or a great love of the folding stuff.

      Possibly both.

      My advice? Enjoy what is being freely given and take from that which you will.

      1. Twilight says:

        Only one of the Good Doctors is a narcissist.

        1. Renarde says:

          Ahh now, I didn’t know that as fact. it was just a speculation on my part. Cheers Twilight!

      2. E. B. says:

        Hi Renard,
        “Academic papers will be written, flowers thrown, champagne corks popped.”
        I agree. From what I have read until now, it seems to me that at least one of the good doctors, if not both of them, is more interested in his/her own academic/professional success than in helping HG.

      3. Em says:

        Thanks, renarde all very clever but you’ve missed the point.

        1. Renarde says:

          Looks like I have! I dunno. I have a problem with so-called professionals who are in it for the cash.
          Actually, in this case, the bigger picture is the inception of this blog and of course the books. So I’m grateful for that alone.

          1. Twilight says:


            Don’t knock the good doctors for using HG to farther their works, they could use what they learn to help victims and to educate others.
            It is no different then the book I read you are writing using what you are learning here (and other sources) and using HGs terminology, yet I did see you twisting that some, using the term middles vs midranger. My point is Your using his work to further your perspective to educate others on the dynamics.

            You do not know they are only in it for the cash, yet the chances of them having some kind of financial gain is obvious from an increase of patients to using the information to educating others.
            You write your book you have a means to a financial gain, not on the same level as the good doctors but financial gain none the less on top of educating others.

            It is hypocritical thou to state you have a problem when you do not see your situation as a means of financial gain to and only educational.

            I do wish you well on writing your book.

          2. Renarde says:

            Missed this comment. Hugely confused as I make the exact same point as you are. The blog and books came out of the therapy. Excellent.

            One thing that HG does, which I REALLY applaud him for, is allowing his books onto the Kindle Unlimited platform. He really neednt have done that.

            In pointing fact, I have done it myself and then I withdrew it from the scheme as it didn’t work for me.

            I’m not sure what point you’re making with regards to me twisting terms. Personally, I think my meaning is obvious. I’m probably doing it because of brevity. How I write on here is not how I write usually. Not even close. And as no one has yet even seen the manuscript….yeah!

            The other point I want to make clear is that I have no idea if I’ll just use unlimited myself. Or even make the book free! So you’re kind of assuming I’m using this as a money making exercise when even I don’t know myself.
            All that being said, I still stand behind my comments about the Doctors. They should be professionals. If someone is not engaging would have thought the onus on both as professionals would be refer onto another professional.
            Am I missing something?

            But thanks on book congrats. I do appreciate that.

          3. Twilight says:

            Hello Renarde

            This is how I perceive things.

            You use the terms Greater, lessor, then call midrangers middles that is where I see the twisting of terms. I do not see one doing things because of brevity that is changing words. Your use of E’s and N’s I see as brevity.
            I have never seen a point to mention it until I saw it being referenced for your book which changes things from accurate use of HGs terminology.
            Each school has a middle by using middles vs midranger you changed things which could cause confusion. Are you speaking of a MGN or a MMR? Both are “middles”.
            I do understand you may have written it differently in the manuscript.

            One is paying for the knowledge a so-call doctor has. If one learns from HGs work, they can provide accurate treatment.

            The only difference between people is the intentions that is the driving force behind them. One being narcissism and having to be top dog, one being a healer and seeing people recover and/or healed.

            As soon as narcissism is thrown into the mix people get all hyper on this they are in it for the money and not seeing things as you are paying for their knowledge.
            If they were an Empath no one would say a damn word and carry on.

            When I said it is hypocritical is due to you write a book to educate others you have the means to a financial gain (not as much as the doctors) for your knowledge not that you are writing it as a money making exercise.

            If one uses another’s works as their own, doesn’t credit the person or changes context, then there is an issue of professionalism.

            Now I do believe one should provide accurate knowledge and/or knowledge that leads to an accurate answer and not knowledge provided by means of manipulation, ex would be a fake psychic. They are in it for the money not to provide anything helpful for a person. Sadly this gives “true” psychics a bad reputation. Yes I do believe there are psychics most are empathetic very few are Empaths. Then you have those of HGs kind that claim to be.

            You are welcome. I believe you can offer a unique perspective on the dynamics with your book.

          4. Renarde says:

            This is getting a little bit beyond the pail…

            You use the terms Greater, lessor, then call midrangers middles that is where I see the twisting of terms.

            No. it isn’t. It is clear by context what I am referring to. I assert I am fully entitled to write in whichever style best suits my purpose given the type of media involved.

            I have never seen a point to mention it until I saw it being referenced for your book which changes things from accurate use of HGs terminology.

            Now where have you seen this I wonder…?
            Not here I don’t think. It’s a ‘McGuffin’ anyway. I am not in disagreement with HG on this matter. I also assert I have the right to interpret information in whichever-so-way I see fit.

            [on middles] – I do understand you may have written it differently in the manuscript.,/em>

            Then why is that even a point here? Not that it even was one in the first place, mind.

            As soon as narcissism is thrown into the mix people get all hyper on this they are in it for the money and not seeing things as you are paying for their knowledge.

            Precisely what you have accused me of.

            When I said it is hypocritical is due to you write a book to educate others you have the means to a financial gain (not as much as the doctors) for your knowledge not that you are writing it as a money making exercise.,

            So it begins. We have now shifted from the assertive ‘making’ a financial gain to the ‘means’ to make a financial game. Which is it Twilight because either way, I’m damned if I do, damned if I don’t?

            Moreover, the Doctors are professionals providing a service for money. If I do not charge, then I am not, by the very definition, a professional.

            If one uses another’s works as their own, doesn’t credit the person or changes context, then there is an issue of professionalism.

            Let’s just clear this up right now. You have gone from the following;

            1 – Following a discussion relating to the ethics of professionals who are charging for services and are also bound by an ethical code. (Or should be) to..

            2 – Making insignificant points about an inconsequential matter which is resolved by context in any road

            3 – Not directly claiming that I am about to do this but you are imprecating that I am about to plagerise HG’s own work. Or at the very least, not properly cite it.

            Unsurprisingly, I take point 3 very seriously.

            Moreover, the bigger question, why have we drifted so far from the original point?
            What has the fact I am a writer got to do with two money-grabbing professionals?

            And why are you following what I have written so closely?

            Therefore, I assert that your posts are now an ad hominem attack for reasons which are currently baffling me.

            The ‘Middle/Middle Ranger’ is a logical fallacy too. That of the strawman.

            Now I do believe one should provide accurate knowledge and/or knowledge that leads to an accurate answer and not knowledge provided by means of manipulation

            Kindly, if you will, attempt to explain what you mean behind this statement. In plain English please and not this curious ‘word salad’.

            You are welcome. I believe you can offer a unique perspective on the dynamics with your book.

            Your praise the first time did not sit right with me. The second time looks even more disingenuous. You have no idea what I have written. It’s not just about HG you know I have to reference and properly accredit, cite where applicable and limit myself to a certain percentage of direct quotations from published works. This is not new to me. I have co-authored two academically reviewed papers on physics and then had them taken to conference.

            I should also point out that there are also a significant number of original concepts included. Which no one has had sight of and which I have only discussed with close friends.

            However, for all you know, I could have written absolute rhubarb!

            Either way, the thread has drifted from a rather (largely) inconsequential one of whether the two Doctors are acting in a professional and ethical matter to the word ‘ranger’.

            Regardless. I got curious. I note that out of all the likes I’ve had in my wordpress account, you have never liked anything I’ve written. It’s not the fact that you haven’t liked anything is more the fact that many have.

            You are conspicuous by your absence.
            Shall we bring this back to a discussion on how Mummy abused us when little?

          5. Twilight says:


            When I read your blog and when I have read your comments here they are written in the same manner, until you stated you write differently elsewhere, then I could understand why your manuscript could be written differently.

            Many people I have observed the way they write in one place is the way they write everywhere. This includes many professionals I have dealt with.

            Your wording didn’t make sense how you use only part of his terminology and changed part. It never has it was only when I read you were writing a book which brought me mentioned it. Could I have worded it better, yes I could have.

            It never even crossed my mind you would plagerise HGs work, I can see and understand why you understood my comment to insinuate this and I apologized for not being more clear with my thoughts.

            As far as the doctors being money grabbing I disagree. Yet you are entitled to your opinion on your perspective of them. From my observation of your opinion is that you called the Empath of the two money grabbing also.

            I didn’t realize I was going to be judged on how many likes I have made to your comments.

            Just because a person likes a comment of yours doesn’t mean you are correct or even accurate, just means they liked it.

            I will make sure any positive thoughts I have about you or what you write stay silent, I don’t want you to think I am not sincere because I throw comments like that around here like crazy watering them down to be meaningless and insincere.

          6. Renarde says:

            When I read your blog and when I have read your comments here they are written in the same manner, until you stated you write differently elsewhere, then I could understand why your manuscript could be written differently.

            I also write on Sometimes, I do publish excerpts from my unpublished books. I do want to be clear on a point though which is in danger of getting rail-roaded. What I perceive to be ‘style’ might not be yours. I can write in different styles but it’s entirely possible that my fingerprints are all over them. So, another observer might say, oh well that’s definitely her work but now she is writing fiction or non-fiction, or satire, or erotica or whatever really.

            I cannot comment on what you have read vis other authors but I can usually clock if it’s the same person. That cannot be said of one GEN I know. When in façade mode, his comments to others are always light and frothy and super kind and very empathic. Like a bouncing cat who is totally at one with his world. Then he drops the façade. Now I see a darker tone. A more sophisticated, elegant and decadent one. Not a million miles away from HG’s own writing voice in point of fact. Unless I had known it was my ex, I would never have guessed or believed it in a million years.

            Your wording didn’t make sense how you use only part of his terminology and changed part.

            My explanation makes total sense. I am a lazy writer.

            Could I have worded it better, yes I could have.

            Thank you for acknowledging that.

            It never even crossed my mind you would plagerise HGs work, I can see and understand why you understood my comment to insinuate this and I apologized for not being more clear with my thoughts.

            Thank you for this.

            As far as the doctors being money grabbing I disagree. Yet you are entitled to your opinion on your perspective of them. From my observation of your opinion is that you called the Empath of the two money grabbing also.

            Again, I m perplexed. An E can be manipulated into all kinds of positions if they are feeling that they are serving the ‘greater good’. After all, is this not how DLS’ function?

            I didn’t realize I was going to be judged on how many likes I have made to your comments.
            Just because a person likes a comment of yours doesn’t mean you are correct or even accurate, just means they liked it.

            No, not judged at all. I just stepped outside the narrative and then observed the interactions happening on this profile.

            I will make sure any positive thoughts I have about you or what you write stay silent, I don’t want you to think I am not sincere because I throw comments like that around here like crazy watering them down to be meaningless and insincere.

            So by that inference, you will only write down the negative ones? I am really inviting you Twilight to step outside of this narrative. What was initially a tangent thread about ethics and responsibility in a specific workplace has again shifted to integrity and ethics as writers and what I am doing on other sites via what’s in the book. Please and thank you.

            I do thank you for you comments and I always welcome constructive criticism. If I perceive it is criticism in order to gain a reaction then I take it on board and react accordingly.

            P.S I received the almighty ‘Holy Grail’ of writing compliments yesterday when a profile on another board accused me (nicely) of possibly being HG himself. I had been expecting it But am still taking that as a great compliment.

          7. HG Tudor says:

            It is hardly a surprise that someone would think you are me because you are using my lexicon and terminology on your own site without providing credit, and also referring to ‘my sociopath friend’ – I was not aware we were friends!

          8. Renarde says:


            Ok, this is interesting! May I address your last comment first?

            I can confirm that no, we are not friends HG. I consult you from time to time, either by phone (usually) or sometimes in email consultation. I would not dream of inferring any kind of relationship with you other than perhaps one of writers’ professional courtesy to each other.

            It is however, entirely possible that I have not made myself crystal clear in a writing somewhere. I do have a ‘friend’. I met him at one of my events in London just over a year ago. There was an instant attraction and we agreed to date. It didn’t work out however. Fine. One thing he made very clear to me early on was that he was a sociopath – a high functioning one at that. At first, I didn’t believe him but as time went on it became blatantly obvious as to his nature. In point of fact, he is a GEN.

            I speak to this friend a lot. We meet where we can in real life. He is a known person in the circles that I run in. He has also been a great source of support to me. Invaluable. So, yes, that is whom I was referring too.

            Your first point. I feel wretched about this and I’m not sure how to correct it. If I have not made it clear, again in some writing somewhere that these are your ideas and your concepts then it was a genuine human error for which I apologise. If there are links to where you feel I have transgressed then please supply them so I can either edit or ask a mod to allow an edit.

            The blog, fuel, fear and fury is a work in progress and frankly, I haven’t touched it for weeks. I think it has the grand sum of two followers and barely gets any hits (if at all). I had left it alone in an unfinished state simply because I was busy elsewhere.

            What I do know to be true (and I can evidence), is how many times I do say in posts, ‘These aren’t my ideas but I am writing about them. Go to, read Tudor’s books. He explains it much better than I can.’

            Off they trot to here. They then come back and tell me they are blown away. That they wished they had discovered this site sooner. They started reading and now they can’t stop. The relief they feel is palpable in the inflection of their communications to me. I can understand this.

            I am a survivor of nearly 42 years of narcissist abuse. This years marks the first time in my life where I have not been abused and that’s all thanks to you. One of the nastiest forms of abuse was a particularly vile Middle Ranger who used the AST’s and benign Hoovers to such a devastating effect on me I had a near total mental collapse. Three months of abuse, breakdown, three months off work and three months to ‘heal’. It was the sense of rejection, you see. That I wasn’t good enough. When I realised it had nothing to do with me and everything to do with my fuel then I finally began to recover my self-esteem. I see how others’ have suffered in the exact same way. I don’t want to save them all, I just want to get it out there. It must however be accurate. I am not the expert; you are. All I can do is express how I feel.

            Which brings me to my final point. I very nearly in the thread above said the following to Twilight. In the end, I chose to leave it out because primarily, I was uncomfortable saying this in a pubic sphere. It’s this; as a courtesy and because I don’t want any transgressions, I was going to email you when one of the final drafts was nearing completion and ask if you wanted to see it with a view to making corrections, including removing text if necessary.

            I am basing my writing on your work and in the book, I am very clear on this and I reference you endlessly. I recall that you are pretty much in the second paragraph of the introduction. Twilight makes the point to me that she perceives that I might have another take on the dynamic. This is how I view it myself. I write with the hope that some of might be of use.

            I am an ethical writer and I despise those that steal others’ work. Again, if I have not made anything clear in a writing somewhere then please do send me the link so I can ensure it is corrected.

            Once again, please accept my apologies.

          9. Twilight says:


            I am a little perplexed as to a Midranger cause a mental breakdown yet out of the 5 greaters you have claimed to have had a relationship with, had never devalued you on a different thread?

            Were you this GEN (your friend) IPPS or IPSS?

          10. Renarde says:

            Hi Twilight

            Not surprised at all that it’s not clear. My life these past four years or so has reached an epic proportion of monstrosity. Very briefly. Met ex-H when just turned 20. Spent 18 years with him, solely and faithfully. I exited the marriage in the summer of 2014. Very quickly after that I picked up a GCN. I was his DLS, a fact I am ashamed of. He never devalued me.

            What I do need to point out are three factors. The first. In 2013 and 2014, I lost an enormous amount of weight. About 7 & 1/2 stones, taking me from a UK size 22/24 to a 12/14 which I have maintained. The second point is that around the winter of 2013, my own sex drive shot through the roof. Very unusually, it was the return of the sex drive and not the weight-loss that started it. The third is at that time I was readily identifying as a submissive who was looking for a Dom. Big, big mistake. Pretty much all of my intimate relationships since then are with kinksters. I have only one exception to this.

            When I was a DLS, I started to become utterly miserable (unsurprisingly) and wanted out. It was at this point that the ghastly MMR’er came in. He promised me everything, D/s, being a teacher, a mentor, being his partner. Foolish me believed him. He was moving way too fast. This MMR did something which breaks every rule in the kink book. He abandoned me in the middle of a task. This was October 2015. We had started the formal relationship, he jumps ship. Doles out many AST’s and tests. At this point I am crying maybe once or twice a day. He comes back. He makes it utterly clear that he does want a relationship with me. I was over the moon but cautious. The second day is when he abandoned me. The next day, I had my breakdown.

            I was clearly vulnerable after exiting such a long term relationship. I was in another very bad emotional one (GCN). I was naive. Inexperienced in the nature of on-line dating. I paid that price in full and many times over for that naivety but ignorance is no defence.

            Time moves on and I acquire #2. A LVN. I cringe when I think of the words he leveled at me; they were truly horrific. I begged him, many times, not to use certain language. Whether it was calling black people ‘N*****’ to referring to his ex as ‘bitch’. or even him asserting he is calling me horrific names as ‘I drove him to it’. #2 followed directly after the MMR. I knew I wasn’t right to enter into the relationship. I just felt so lost. As a single mum, just on my own. I was very lonely.

            Finally #3, a GEN, enters my life. He never devalues me in an overt way. We do fall out and stop communicating. It is at this point that another friend, a female, tells me she suspects he is an N. I had already come to this conclusion many weeks ago but had set aside the red flags because, frankly, I was madly in love with him. I was his IPSS.

            Shortly after that, days even, I stumble across Narcsite and that was that. I realised that I too was part of the problem and if I ever wanted to live a somewhat normal life, I needed to get myself into shape emotionally and psychologically AND pronto fast.

            I immediately removed myself from all online dating, kink and even sex. This does not stop #3 who now discards his external façade and shows me, explicitly, where his head is at. Many times over the intervening months and right until pretty much now.

            To turn to the friend (GEN) whom I speak of. I guess the closet thing you would say that our relationship follows is that I am his consensual NISS. He might well deny it.

            I guess that about covers me. Obviously, there were others along the way. But in the vast majority of cases, they showed their ‘N’ side before they could get close. At that point when I was not-aware, I was reacting on gut. Now post-weaponisation, I rely on gut and the intellect.

          11. Twilight says:


            First thing first, that is an accomplishment to lose weight like that. It is not easy, takes dedication.

            You were a Greater Cerebral Narcissist’s dirty little secret? Frost off DLS have nothing to be ashamed of. Would you explain the dynamics between a GCN and a SE as a DLS ( you stated you were an SE correct?). Was he a dom?

            Was it the GCN that lead you to the desire to be the MMR’s sub?
            How long was your relationship with the MMR?

            When you were online dating how did you know he was a GCN?

            Was there any physical violence with the LVN or just verbal abuse? I do understand the feeling of being lonely.

            The GEN how did you “fall” out with out ever experiencing devaluation? Yet he removes his mask.

            Your friend GEN why would he denied being friends? What makes you his consensual NISS?

          12. Renarde says:

            Thank you for your kind words on my weight loss. I never dreamed it would happen and that I would ever get down to roughly the same size as before I married all those years ago.

            The GCN was indeed a Dom. He came into my life as a ‘mentor’. That is always a big red flag. The dynamic was interesting. There never was a cross word spoken. We met every week for coffee and every month in a hotel. It wasn’t enough for me as time wore on. I tried to date others but as I am naturally mono – it just didn’t sit right with me so all attempts were useless. He was appalling at sex. The worst. Really really bad. Not just technically but he was selfish too. He never gave oral (although I was expected to) and the act only lasted less than a minute.

            I got many, many messages in the day and we used to chat every evening on messenger. In the end, the situation became untenable and I begged him for release as sub. He refused saying he ‘couldn’t give me up’. It was at this point that the MMR came in. A piece of white knighting that had to be seen to be believed. He chases off the other N. I am ever so grateful. And it begins.

            The relationship with the MMR only lasted a few weeks but span out to about three months if you included the AST’s and the tests. I went NC right at the end of Dec.

            You ask the question, did I know any of this whilst dating? Had no idea with any of them although there were inklings. After it ended with the MMR I began to seriously research sociopathy and NPD but all advice I found whilst identifying him as such offered precious little in the way of an explanation. Or indeed, how to move forward.

            The LVN was angry. Very angry. He used to rant and rail and rage against the world a lot. The world owed him, he had been robbed of chances many times. He seemed to spectacularly fail to grasp we make our own chances in life. He was capable of violence (think punching a horse, breaking things, pulling a knife on others) but never with me. It was an LDR. I noted though that every time he visited me, his behaviour worsened but no, he never hit me.

            Gen #3 is a very clever man indeed. I could be wrong but I think it was always his intention to get to a point where he could unmask himself. Thus I get statements such as ‘I’m dark; I’m not ready for you to see that side of me yet’, ‘I need therapy’. ‘I cannot love.’. His messages were full of hints as to his true nature. ‘Please don’t make me angry because, verbally I could destroy you and I don’t want that to happen. It would be over.’ Also ‘We will be together forever’. ‘I will love you forever’. (Yes he has just contradicted himself there). I’ve been looking for you my whole life. You’re the one. Why is our bond so strong? Then finally apologising and saying ‘at times, I am not a nice man’.

            We fell out over a broken promise. Details are unimportant. Not a huge argument but significant. When I went to message him again, I discovered I’d been blocked. I then found HG, and the IGU came just before Xmas.

            As to the ‘friend’. We’ve talked about this. I do not meet his criteria for friendship, yet. We talk a lot on the phone and there are messages a few times a week. Friend is a magnificent beast of a man. He stops traffic when he enters a room. Would it surprise you to know that both GEN’s know each other to speak to and that the common denominator is me?

          13. Twilight says:


            How did you identify each of them to the relevant school they belong to?

          14. Renarde says:

            I thought it might be helpful to supply where I have tried to ensure that you are properl;y crdited there..

            I believe @Renarde1975 has provided some truly insightful information by supplying H G Tudor as someone to read / learn from about narcissists. I’ve just touched on Your Fault. [snip]

            Here is the link.

            Published Sun, 21st Oct.

          15. Twilight says:


            “Again, I m perplexed. An E can be manipulated into all kinds of positions if they are feeling that they are serving the ‘greater good’. After all, is this not how DLS’ function?”

            I do not disagree an Empath can be manipulated to do things if they feel it is for the greater good. We were speaking of the doctors and not empaths in generals.

            Where are the facts to show the empathic doctor is being manipulated to doing “greater good” by using HGs work. Where are the facts to show they are an IPSS or DLS?

            From my understanding the DLS is kept a secret and used more as the “booty call” kept hanging on by crumbs not part of a bigger plan used only for a burst of fuel when needed.

            You stated in your opinion of the good doctors they were money grabbing and in doing so it is unprofessional.

            I have said it before you are entitled to your opinion, it doesn’t make it accurate or correct.

            I will comment, i just won’t praise your work. You have shown me you do not believe I am genuine in what I said. I do not believe you welcome constructive criticism yet react to anything you see as criticism.

          16. Twilight says:


            I didn’t answer a question of yours

            “And why are you following what I have written so closely?”

            I am not, the way you write stands out. On top of you can at time come in with guns a blazing being almost right vs right. I am by no mean insinuating you are being manipulative only you are stating your perspective in a very dominate way.

            Just so we are clear I was taught to observe every detail, even the tiniest one. I notice many things about everyone that comments. I usually stay quite.

            “As soon as narcissism is thrown into the mix people get all hyper on this they are in it for the money and not seeing things as you are paying for their knowledge.
            Precisely what you have accused me of.”

            Accused you of what? It was a generalized statement. If you want to get technical where are the facts to uphold that is what the doctors are doing in this case? There are none, it is your opinion yet because we are talking about narcissism and many are money grabbing and one of the doctors is a narcissist is why I see the base for this opinion.

            The point I was making they are being paid for their knowledge no different then you could be if you actually wrote your book and put it out there for people to read, unless you are going to have it published in paperback or hard back and hand copies out you will have accesses to a financial gain, even if it is two cents. I do find it interesting you find offense I believe you should be paid for your time and effort to provide knowledge someone could learn from. This isn’t stating you won’t give your knowledge away, you do here many times and on your blog.

            My comment was
            “Now I do believe one should provide accurate knowledge and/or knowledge that leads to an accurate answer and not knowledge provided by means of manipulation, ex would be a fake psychic. They are in it for the money not to provide anything helpful for a person. Sadly this gives “true” psychics a bad reputation. Yes I do believe there are psychics most are empathetic very few are Empaths. Then you have those of HGs kind that claim to be. “

            I gave an example of what I meant within that paragraph, yet you refrained from mentioning it. Explain where my word salad is please.

            I actually thought your views gave a different angle to the dynamics and could bring something new to the table we all sit at. This was just from what I have read here and on your blog. Now I am wondering if someone states an opinion about your work you will see it as a criticism and become defensive. Like I have already stated not one time did I think you would plagerise HGs work.

            You judge me due to not seeing any likes on your comments, which I suspect is why you became defensive and see my comments as an ad hominem attack against you. Just because your views are different from mine doesn’t mean I don’t see value in them.

            I was sincere in my praise, Your right I don’t know what you have written or will write, I saw value in what I have read that you have written and made public thou. Maybe I was mistaken and your book will be nothing more then recycled information worded differently from a non narcissist perspective.

  26. Margaret Robertson says:

    So, your mother is the wicked witch of the East. Mine too. (We could compare notes here if you wish, my mother slept with my boyfriend while I was pregnant with his child…sound like your Mum?) But we took such different paths….I avoid confrontation and couldn’t hurt anyone…. you choose to continue the abuse to everyone you are intimate with. You may deny your accountability to your good Doctor….you can live in denial to all of your internet followers, but Karma will have her way with you. You are not immune. Are you ready for that Mr. Tudor? My brother just passed away. We had his memorial service last weekend. He was visited by the spirits of all of the people that he ever harmed – he was heard begging for their forgiveness. My mother, the super narc, is being hammered by Karma right now. Her entire life she has been a beautiful woman…she now looks like Sheamgal (Lord of the Rings). And has just buried her second child. Karma will know where to hurt you….you will have to face that which you avoid….eventually. You don’t get points for having interment followers that provide you with fuel. You can handle it on your own terms, or karma will have her way. I know it. You know it.

    1. HG Tudor says:

      There is no such thing as karma.

      1. NarcAngel says:

        This won’t be popular but I’m being honest.

        I dont believe in Karma. I’ve said it before – that seems like a catch-all for hoping someone is addressed in another time or life for things that you feel are beyond your control or have no inclination to do anything about now or in this life. It even seems dangerous to believe in it in a way, in that you can turn your back on the behaviours and not address them because something (Karma) will “get” them for you later. In my view, it allows bad things to continue while you turn away and absolve yourself from any action, and is in that sense cowardly.

        1. windstorm says:

          I understand your views on Karma. Of course no one here in Kentucky ever mentions Karma because it’s “heathen.” The only time I’ve ever heard it used like you’re talking about is here on the blog. I’ve only ever read karma discussed in relation to the self – not like a curse on others.

          I have a great dread that Karma is real because I fear negative karma I’ve amassed and not burned thru in this life. lol! I sure hope I’m not building up a big pile of negative karma that I’ll have to slog thru in my next life! My personal thought is that if we really believe in Karma, we should be focused on our own.

          1. NarcAngel says:

            Good morning!
            Haha. Rest easy – nothing is coming for you. If Karma DID exist wouldn’t will all be getting a visit for wishing it on others?

          2. windstorm says:

            Good morning to you as well! Yes, we would be building up our own bad Karma from wishing it on others. All the more reason to only be thinking about cleaning up our own Karma!

            It’s a sneaky thing, Karma. If the reincarnation people are right (and I pray they are NOT), we may not get hit by the negative Karma we’ve generated now until our next lifetime. It’s accumulated Karma that keeps us tied to the cycle of death and rebirth. That’s why I want to burn mine up now before I die. The last thing I want is to have to go thru life all over again! I’ve had enough, thank you very much! 😝

          3. Mercy says:

            Windstorm, your Karma was that massive snake that held your bathroom hostage 😂

          4. windstorm says:

            Part of it, I’m sure. But now I’ve got the bad Karma from killing the snake!

            I’m still hoping to burn up all my bad Karma before I die, but odds aren’t good. But then, hope springs eternal! 😄

          5. Mercy says:

            Windstorm I have this mental image of you as a mystical hero fighting to save the world from karma. Next you’ll be slaying dragons (although you’ll feel horrible about killing the dragon). The final epic battle will be Windstorm vs Karma. My money is on the hero. 

          6. windstorm says:

            Ha, ha! Maybe the “mystical” part!

        2. MB says:

          Yes NA, but instant karma can be quite hilarious 😂

          1. NarcAngel says:

            Haha. That is not Karma. Those are examples of consequence.

          2. Kathy Mor says:

            Karma is consequence……

        3. Twilight says:

          Narc Angel

          I don’t believe in Karma either, to me it is nothing but the outcome of choices one has made through out ones life. An Empath can even be left alone at the end of their life because they were afraid to venture out from within the walls they put up and chose not to socialize just as one of HGs kind can end up alone due to the choice of being mean tempered towards everyone.
          The effects of how one sees and feels innerwardly and outwardly.

        4. Mercy says:

          NA, I see karma a different way. For myself it’s just lable for lack of better words. If you treat people badly, abuse, destroy and surround yourself with destruction you will live a miserable life…Karma. We create our own karma. If I say that karma will take care of my ex Narc, it is not that I believe that a force of nature will give him what he deserves. Its that I believe that his actions will create his own misery. Also, turning my back to let karma take care of him is not me turning my back on the situation at hand. It’s simply that I can not help him or change him so I must help myself. Create my own karma. 

          1. Mercy says:

            And just to clarify, I do not see the death of 2 children, as in Margaret’s mother’s situation, as Karma. I see that as an unfortunate tragedy and to say that some unknown force created these deaths as a payback for her mother’s actions is a little twisted.

        5. 12345 says:

          I don’t either. Never have. I don’t believe in soul mates either.

          1. NarcAngel says:

            The Twin Flame thing makes me throw up in my mouth a little bit.

        6. Kathy Mor says:

          I believe in Karma but for some people/ situations I can care less. I will still get my revenge, in spite of Karma.

      2. Fine Wine says:

        I can’t believe how much the karma concept is separated worldwide. And each society call it differently.

        I just done a tiny research, and I didn’t find any scientific resource that prove it. It is just a philosophy.

        However, I do believe that God want us to be good. And he rewards the good in this life and the afterlife.

      3. Fine WIne says:

        Opps, I meant ” widespread worldwide” Not “separated”.

      4. Margaret Robertson says:

        Muahahahahahaha……okay. If you say so. Scared?

        1. K says:

          Margaret Robertson
          it is very clear that you know absolutely nothing about psychopathy. HG is fearless and unaccountable.

          To increase your understanding you should read this article.

          Your rules/worldview are not applicable to HG.

    2. NarcAngel says:

      Is it your belief that Karma is now serving your Supernarc mother with aging badly due to the grief of losing two of her children? My understanding is that they would only be annoyed at losing an appliance (as children are considered as such, and merely a source of fuel). Not grief as experienced by others.

      1. Lou says:

        I think karma may be a concept adopted by some to comfort themselves. And adopted by societies to pacify human interactions.

      2. Margaret Robertson says:

        It amazes me how I have been judged when no one here knows what has happened. She’s not grieving…she was pissed that her church ‘friends’ didn’t show up fast enough. She wouldn’t even go visit him when he was dying because it wasn’t convenient for her….even though people were offering to send her drivers/cars, and she wouldn’t have to do anything. Saying I’m twisted without knowing what this woman has done over the years, is well…fucking ignorant. But then again, yes, I’m twisted. And you can say Karma doesn’t exist all you want, but I’ve lived on this planet long enough to know that oh, yes it does. I’ve seen it at work too many times to deny it. Maybe karma is just a friend of mine. If so, wonderful.

        1. K says:

          Margaret Robertson
          You are over-reacting, nobody is judging you. You really need to work on your emotional thinking.

    3. K says:

      Margaret Robertson
      You didn’t choose to have empathy or be an empath; it was hardwired into you with a combination of environmental factors and genetics when you were a young child.

      HG didn’t choose to be a narcissist; he was hardwired to be one due to a combination of environmental factors and genetics when he was a child.

      Narcissists and empaths are exactly alike; the only difference: we have empathy and a true self and they don’t.

      Our paths were chosen for us.

      1. kelfairly says:

        K, Free will. HG knows what he’s doing is wrong, it’s just that he can’t bring himself to face his fears inside. He’d rather hurt other people than hurt himself. Empaths have the same gene pool and environment, we choose right or wrong, truth or deceit.

        1. K says:

          HG knows exactly what he doing because he has awareness and intelligence, however, he is wired to be a narcissist and that is a permanent part of his personality, ergo, narcissistic personality disorder.

          You were wired to be an empath so you have empathy and you behave accordingly. You do NOT have free will and neither does HG.

          If you think you have free will, then remove your love, empathy, compassion, kindness and conscience and replace it with hatred, malice, indifference, rage, pathological jealousy and envy. Do that for a couple of months and let me know how it goes.

          Please read:
          Free Will (that free will is an illusion) by Sam Harris
          The Psychopath Inside by Jimmy Fallon
          The Science of Evil: On Empathy and the Origins of Cruelty by Simon Baron-Cohen

          I watched my lesser parents brutalize and abuse my twin and I can assure you that he protected himself the only way he could; he became a narcissist. He was targeted and it wasn’t his fault.

      2. kelfairly says:

        Children decide whether to manipulate to get their own way or to understand and respect the rules.

        1. K says:

          Wrong. I have been following ten narcissistic children for three years and they are hardwired to be manipulative and anti-social because they need fuel and they are behaving exactly as they should. That is their normal and they are completely unaware of it.

          Disorders are not a mental illness, a phase or temporary state that can be altered; they are permanent and woven throughout an individuals personality.

      3. kelfairly says:

        NPD didn’t use to be, but is now recognized by the American Psychiatric Association as a form of mental illness.

        1. K says:

          Could you please post the link to the APA stating that personality disorders are now classified as mental illness. Thank you.

        2. Kathy Mor says:

          Let me send an anonymous flyer to my ex lower-lower-lower MR, aka lesser. Poor creature thinks he is “sane”. You know it is so insulting I was snared possibly by a lesser or a lower mid range (max), but HG said he is a lesser so he is a lesser.
          If you are going to get screwed like that, for Christ’s sake get a greater with all his power and GOLDEN period not some passive aggressive bitch that can barely deliver a mediocre bronze period. So insulting.
          I still can’t get over myself.

        1. alphasierrapapadelta26 says:

          Jesus Christ.

          The American Psychiatric Association (APA) does not state that NPD, APD or any other personality disorders are mental illnesses. I’m sorry, it just doesn’t.

          In fact, on the APA website, it clearly states that these are disorders.

          When it comes to mental “illness” I tend to refer to Dr. Thomas Szasz’s assessment of the situation:

          “By definition, a disease of the mind is impossible. Disease requires a physical lesion; the mind is nonphysical. Ergo, the mind cannot be diseased. This is a logical deduction; the conclusion follows from the premises. This is what Szasz means when he says that this claim is “an analytic truth, not subject to empirical falsification.”1 Because mental disorders are not diseases in the literal, physical sense, they can only be diseases in a metaphorical sense. Mental illness, he says, “is a metaphor. Minds can be ‘sick’ only in the sense that jokes are ‘sick’ or economies are ‘sick.’”2 Psychiatric diagnoses only mimic medical diagnoses.”

          I’m not sick. I don’t have any symptoms of what I consider being sick simply because I have a personality disorder.

          As for kelfairly’s statement that “children decide whether or not to manipulate to get their own way or to understand and respect the rules.”

          Perhaps a “normal” child does yes, but in those of us with personality disorders, it’s a bit more complicated than that.

      4. kelfairly says:

        What I meant about having a choice is when the child first becomes a narcissist. HG said if he could go back he would avoid the abuse that happened that November day, which would have possibly resulted in him not being narcissistic. Whether you become a narcissist automatically with an abuse or you choose it as a coping mechanism may be up for debate (not with me please), but from what I’ve read, it’s a choice.

        What I meant about HG having a choice now is that he knows intellectually the harm he causes others, and writes how sick and twisted it is, he also writes about the creature that torments him. He is seriously doing more than anyone to expose narcissism, explain why we’re victims, and spread it to everyone, but he still chooses to treat therapy as a game. He believes in the benefits of narcissism and doesn’t want to lose the drive he has, the lack of emotional holdback, and would rather keep his demons than face them.

        I know you’ve been on this site from its beginning, but this is how I feel.

        1. K says:

          I understand how you feel, however, if you look at it logically, when did you choose to become an empath? Age 4, 8 or 15?

          My twin didn’t choose to be a narcissist, that was done to him. At no point did he declare: I am choosing to be a narcissist. His narcissism presented at age five.

          Until I found narcsite, I had no idea that I was an empath and I never heard of the term and I never chose to be one. I was wired to be one and it controls me; I do NOT control my empathy.

          Lori cannot stop being a co-dependent.
          Tigerchelle cannot stop being a BPD.
          A psychopath cannot stop being a psychopath.
          And all the empaths on narcsite cannot stop being empaths.

          Why? Because we were ALL programmed/hardwired to be whatever it is that we are and we cannot change that.

          I cannot remove my empathy. And HG cannot remove his narcissism.

        2. 12345 says:

          This is not a combative question, just seeking to understand. If you were involved romantically with a narcissist would you believe with enough understanding of themselves that they would make the choice to change? Would the realization of the error of their ways cause them to make a different “choice” in regards to relational destruction? Do you believe that enough voluntary therapy can help them make the choice to become empathic?

          1. Kathy Mor says:

            No. It is not only a choice. It goes deeper than that. There is evidence that certain areas of their brain, the empathic areas are less functional/developed than a “normal” brain. MRIs show it.

            They could consciously make a choice to not harm certain people. For instance, HG. He makes a conscious effort to not harm anyone here, or snare some of us. It is a choice. He is still HG. He is still a narcissist. He chooses to treat us in a different manner because otherwise it would affect his reputation, his work.

            I think therapy can help in different aspects, to clear up certain wounds, to clarify certain points… but therapy cannot “fix” a narcissist. They are wired differently. For the good and for the bad… unfortunately, we Empaths, are the victims.

          2. 12345 says:

            I understand. I think the catalyst to make a different or a counterintuitive choice, like with HG for example, is having something to lose that is valuable to them. HG’s catalyst to seek therapy was the threat of losing his inheritance. (Correct me if I’m wrong, HG).

            Unfortunately for us, most narcissists don’t see or refuse to acknowledge what they really are. My mother knew there was a threat she would lose her children and she did. It’s our fault, of course and as a result we have been taken out of her will. Greaters (like HG) are the only ones who have a chance at making different choice and I think HG is unique in that. Lessors and mid rangers can’t see, much less, make a different choice. Who knows, My only reference is what I’ve seen and what HG has provided for us which has been invaluable for me.

            Thank you for speaking further about it😃

      5. kelfairly says:

        12345, Regarding your thoughts on a narcissist changing himself or a cure; I think a lot of progress is being made recently on narcissism, especially as the number of narcissists increases in the world.MRI scans reveal a lack of gray cells in the empathic area of the brain of narcissists, and I do believe they will develop something medically other than just therapy. I attached links to websites to this chain, but it’s still in moderation. Narcissism is too damaging to be an acceptable thing, there needs to be something done about it. I do not think a narcissist has the insight or point of view to change on his own.

      6. kelfairly says:

        K, How interesting that you have a twin that’s a narcissist! I started to google that once. It would be neat to hear about that.

        1. K says:

          It is very interesting and Simon Baron-Cohen (a clinical psychologist) wrote that more studies need to be done with fraternal and identical twins regarding NPD.

          Genetics played a significant role in our outcome, I think.

          Since learning about NPD, I understand the children’s behaviour and I work with them in a fuel free or positive fuel manner and it is wonderful because there is no more struggle to figure them out. They are beautiful and innocent and victims of circumstance. It is heartbreaking.

        2. K says:

          Thank you for the links!

        3. K says:

          Yes, that is a picture of my twin and I loved him very much when we were little and I tried to protect him from my parents but I couldn’t. He was a beautiful little boy and I watched my mother and father destroy him. It was heartbreaking.

      7. kelfairly says:

        We don’t choose to be empaths, as it’s normal.

      8. kelfairly says:

        Kohut’s theory of self-psychology: Narcissism allows people to suppress feelings of low self esteem and to develop a positive sense of self.
        (Kohut introduced the term NPD.)

      9. kelfairly says:

        K, I always thought your photo was your children. Now I know, it must be you and your brother.

        1. Kathy Mor says:

          That’s so cool!

      10. Margaret Robertson says:

        Bull Shit. What you are saying is that there is no accountability. That’s what made the narcissist in the first place….not being held responsible for keeping their ego under control. No one has chosen my path…I chose it. I take full responsibility for it. Because Freedom Increases Responsibility. If your path was chosen for you, you are a slave.

        1. K says:

          Margaret Robertson
          Wrong. Accountability has absolutely nothing to do with how an individual is wired. Children do not choose to be abused and their personality is formed by a combination of genetics and environment.

          My twin is a narcissist and I am an empath. Neither of us had a choice. Contrary to what you believe, five-year old children do not declare: I am going to be a narcissist. That was done to my brother and he was innocent. He didn’t ask to be beaten, sexually assaulted or emotionally abused and neglected by our parents. NPD is an effective self-defence mechanism.

          This statement is absurd:
          “That’s what made the narcissist in the first place….not being held responsible for keeping their ego under control.”

          Narcissistic parents create narcissistic children (not lack of accountability) and I can assure you that narcissistic parents have no desire to “keep egos under control”; They want fuel and nothing else matters and they are categorically incapable of good/proper parenting.

          I am an empath and that was done to me by my parents but at least I am not a slave to stupidity.

          1. E&L says:

            K, forgive my question if it seems intrusive. Are you and your brother in contact? close? friendly? I feel like a failure for not being able to “just get along” with my family. If they are the cat(s) and I am the mouse, the best I could do was be a smart, brave vermin to survive.

          2. K says:

            Hello E&L
            Your question is not intrusive at all. We are not in contact at all; he is too violent.

            You are not a failure and it is ok if you do not get along with your family.

            If you look at it logically:

            1. They are not going to change, and that’s ok, too.
            2. Accept it for what it is.
            3. Recognize that you are entitled to protect yourself and set yourself free from any guilt or ambivalence.

            Your comment about being a mouse reminded me of a Japanese folk tale called: The Mouse’s Wedding. It turns out that the mouse is the mightiest creature in the world and the theme is about understanding your strengths and weaknesses and learning about self-acceptance*.

            Be the smart vermin that you are and survive!

            *I read that happiness is determined by our self-acceptance.

          3. E&L says:

            K, I appreciate your response. I feel less alone knowing others have made such excruciating decisions to sever ties with family member(s). It has been gut wrenching for me, to seek answers, acknowledge the truth, see the behaviors of all the participants. I am constantly (not repeatedly) doubting my decision to walk away. And, yet, I could not tolerate anymore lying, deception, and contempt directed my way. My mother died during this upheaval, and I chose not to enter the home of the person she was living with to see her before she left this earth. This decision is killing me. I cannot forgive myself. How do I find the self-acceptance. This burden of thought is killing me. I do not claim to be suffering more than anyone else, just that I find this suffering unbearable and I cannot find the solution. I will look up the Japanese folk tale. I am afraid I am not equipped to solve this dilemma of forgiveness and acceptance.

          4. K says:

            You are welcome E&L
            You are not alone, many of us on narcsite have had to walk away or distance ourselves from family or friends and it is ok to doubt yourself and feel guilty. You are experiencing ambivalence and that is quite normal.

            Take a step back and remove the guilt and look at your situation for what it was. You didn’t want to tolerate anymore lying, deception and contempt directed your way and you put up a boundary to protect yourself. You did the right thing. I chose not to be there when my father died or attend his funeral so I understand where you are coming from.

            I think, if you keep reading, you will get your emotional thinking (ET) under control and, eventually, you will replace it with logical thinking (LT).

            Also, look at it this way: you didn’t do anything wrong so there is nothing to forgive. If a friend, or loved one, told you they were being treated badly/abused, what type of advice would you give them? You would probably tell that individual to stay away from the abuser.

            When you have time, Google articles about self-acceptance and keep reading them until you have a fair understanding of what that means. You don’t deserve to punish yourself for protecting yourself. You have been through enough already.

          5. E&L says:

            K, your comments have provided me comfort and I am grateful.

          6. K says:

            My pleasure E&L
            It takes a while to sort through the aftermath. Don’t suppress your feelings, just feel them and accept them for what they are (even the negative ones). Keep reading and I am aways somewhere on narcsite if you have any questions or want to share something with me.

          7. MB says:

            K, well written! Constructive and educational.

          8. K says:

            Thank you very much! I strive for enlightenment.

      11. pavotdeschamps says:

        K, I don’t see empaths listed in the DSM-5 10 personality disorders, clusters A, B and C. Would you kindly indicate your reference?

    4. Lou says:

      Personally, I don’t think losing a child is a punishment by karma for a narcissist. I am sure my mother would not be really sad if I died tomorrow. I think she would feel a mix of relief and power because she outlived me. She would like it deep inside but would just pretend to be sad.
      I really do not see any sign of karma working in her life.

    5. Kelly says:


      Thank you for your post, it’s interesting because maybe karma explains the same about my mother. I didn’t see her cry about my brother, but I live out of state, but his death was very hard on her, she couldn’t stop talking about it for the longest time and was definitely in remorse. She was beautiful and sexy too, now she’s has a spot on her face where skin cancer was removed, and she is bowed with osteoporosis. She’s lost control of so many things, but she keeps her facade. I’ve always thought it’s a great injustice to see this beautiful woman end up this way, it’s just not right. Your idea of karma actually sheds a new light to it.

      HG is a narcissist, he’s in constant denial, and it doesn’t help when his fans agree with everything he does.

      1. NarcAngel says:

        It could be said that empaths spend a fair bit of time in denial also. That is a large part in why the narc/empath dance is able to endure. In some cases for lengthy periods. Being able to see both sides does not make one a fan. It makes them just that – able to see.

        1. Renarde says:

          In utter and total agreement NA. I have this friend, a GEN who is very open about how he operates. What he says to me is that once you become aware of who you are then you become fully accountable for your actions. This goes for the Ns and the Es alike.

          In fact, you could go further and the Es constantly moaning that they are being targeted does not suit their own purpose in the long run. At some point we have to stand up and take responsibility for our actions. If not just so that we can effectively heal.

          There will be many, as I’m sure you have gathered, that will read these comments and go, why are all of these women having a ‘fangirl moment’ over HG? Yes, it is true that it could be perceived we have ‘got into bed’ with the enemy. That cannot be denied.

          I personally do not see it in quite that way. I see it as a truce. A temporary break in hostilities. A football game at Christmas for example. At some point, we will go back to our trenches and shell the fuck out of each other.

          But until then, I am determined to learn all I can.

          Always wise words NA.

          1. NarcAngel says:

            Yes, it seems that some fail to see that you might actually agree with a certain point of view or be able to see both sides without accepting, adopting, or condoning all that that person says or does (unless it’s theirs of course). That is not being a fan. To think that you have to be on one side or another is a childish notion. No understanding or evolving comes from being so firmly entrenched.

        2. Kathy Mor says:

          Thank you NA!
          Denial is my “sin”. And I still sometimes wonder: is my ex really a narcissist? Why do I fucking miss his stupid face?
          It can’t be. It is not possible. That’s just… no. No. It just can’t be.

          That’s when I RUN to HG.

          HG saved my life. It is the only narc allowed in my life; the only narc I can say I spend my empathic love on.
          The rest of them? Hell and damnation!

          If it were not for this web site I don’t know what would have happened to me. I was so lost and in so much pain it was pitiful. Thanks to HG and everyone who has put up with my rage, I can think logically.

      2. K says:

        Is your mother a narcissist? Because, if she is, then she can’t feel remorse, regret or sadness. Her grief is manipulation, a classic pity play, and she uses it to get fuel.

        The cancer, loss of looks and osteoporosis are the natural effects of aging, not karma.

        HG knows exactly what he is and he is not in constant denial. Before I came to narcsite, I never believed in Karma and I still don’t.

      3. kelfairly says:

        K, I think you’re upset because I questioned or had a different opinion with you above. Yes, my mother is a narc. Use whatever word for remorse. She lost a companion and negative fuel- that’s too ugly for me, as I love them both despite what they are. My brother looked after me like HG with his brother, I gave back with my adoration. I’ve never bothered with karma, but it is an interesting light to shine on my mother’s situation, whether you agree or not. Margaret should be allowed to believe and express her observations about karma, without having the whole site not support her. I’m open to her idea, and can see it as a possibility.

        1. NarcAngel says:


          Margaret is absolutely entitled to share her views on Karma as are you and everyone else who put theirs forth. Isn’t that part of the purpose of the blog? to share different views and not necessarily adapt to majority rules or whomever gets theirs in first? I can (and do) respect Margarets right to opinion (and yours, to extract something from it in her sharing of it). Is that how you see it? That giving a differing opinion is somehow taking away anothers?

        2. K says:

          Just to be clear, are you also Kelly?

          I am not upset. Margaret made a comment about how HG “chooses” to continue to abuse the people he is intimate with.

          He did not choose to be a narcissist that was done to him. Borderlines, histrionics and anti-socials do NOT choose to be disordered.

          Again, loss of looks, cancer and osteoporosis are all the effects of aging and have nothing to do with karma.

          Other people, whether you agree or not, are just sharing their views on karma as well and they, too, should be supported and allowed to express their observations without being referred to as “fans”. There is no reason for your defensiveness. It is just two different perspectives.

        3. Mercy says:

          Kelly, the whole site isn’t against Margaret’s observation. It a couple of readers expressing their opinion on an interesting topic. The debate is constructive not hostile.

        4. K says:

          Hi kelfairly

          I think this paragraph on the link: Bridges to Recovery (a mental health treatment facility) is spurious:

          “Narcissistic personality disorder (NPD) is one of 10 personality disorders recognized as forms of mental illness by the American Psychiatric Association. Like other types of mental illness, NPD is responsive to treatment, and those who sincerely dedicate themselves to overcoming their narcissistic tendencies have an excellent chance of achieving their goals. Narcissism doesn’t have to rule anyone’s life, if they refuse to let it do so.”

          No where does the APA state on their site that NPD is a mental illness or, perhaps I just can’t find it.

          Web MD, also, states that NPD is a mental illness, however, that is inaccurate, as well. Mental illness is treatable; NPD isn’t, when you have the time please read.

      4. kelfairly says:

        Actually you’re flat out stating karma doesn’t exist, how do you know this? Because that’s what HG said, answering how a narcissist thinks? I’m willing to consider it as a possibility because it speaks to me for something I’ve wondered regarding my mother. Of course I realize science and medical ailments and life happen.

      5. kelfairly says:

        Yes, I’m Kelly. WordPress said someone already had that name so I had to use another.

        1. windstorm says:


          It’s probably you – the Kelly already on WP. I went thru about a year of having to be “Windstorm2” because WP said there already was a “Windstorm” even though I was that other Windstorm. Then when I came back after being away a few months, “violà!” I could be plain old Windstorm again.

          WP is just quirky. I guess we should be glad it hasn’t crashed.

      6. kelfairly says:


        I do like your comment regarding Margaret’s post. I’ve never thought about karma, but it did light a bulb to answer something I was wondering. Not regarding my brothers death as karma, that was just something that had also happened with us. I agree with you that if there is karma, then it’s something we’ve brought on ourselves. Negativity can cause medical issues, (as can being a narcissists victim). Strangest thing about her skin cancer is she always wore a sun bonnet, and kept her face covered to keep the sun from wrinkling her, so I don’t know how it ever touched her face.

        I don’t mind in the least constructive differences. It’s just sometimes when HG says something as he did on this one, from a narcissists view, that other people jump on his bandwagon. I have great respect for HG and his opinions, but I’m not a yes man. I just don’t like seeing someone post something, and it becoming a ganged up-on negativity. I’m sure I asked for my gang up, but it’s because I was making a point, maybe to be sensitive to posts people put out and to be open minded.

        1. Mercy says:

          Kelfairly, I believe the term Karma, used as it’s true meaning, is a religious term referencing a person’s fate in future lives due to previous actions. This not my religious belief so therefore I can state without a doubt that I do not believe in karma. Others have adopted this term, as I have, meaning “the consequences of ones actions”. Even though I don’t believe in karma I do find it ironic about your mother’s skin cancer. In that case id say karma’s a bitch haha.

          I tend to disagree with the point you make about ganging up. First, Karma is a religious term and many will have solid views on the subject without HGs influence. Second those that have commented are intelligent enough to have their own thoughts without having to jump on the bandwagon.

          A subject that is based on religion is going to get many view points but I’m glad you have found another way to look at your situation with you mother and brothers death. That is what I love about this site. Not only do I learn from the teacher but I learn from the readers as well. I’m always finding different ways to look at a situation when I can’t seem to work past something.

      7. kelfairly says:

        I didn’t really hear anything about religion in the posts, and I thought the original karma comment was based on the modern definition of it as reaping the bad that you sow. I felt bad someone had posted a thought, that got stomped on is all. I won’t in the future.

      8. kelfairly says:

        I’m not being childish, thanks. Although your accusation is teetering. Mine was an observation under different articles of a repetitious pattern by some. If it’s just coincidence, then terrific. All of this is basically because someone posted a comment that received mostly negative replies to. Your pic symbol makes you a little intimidating until I realize it’s ironically just a mask. You have a good wit but a rough delivery sometimes, and I’ve wondered if it’s just that maybe you grew up watching MASH and picked up on its sarcasm. But peace cat woman, no more meowing, I’ll stay in my corner and mind my own business. I do appreciate your comments

        1. NarcAngel says:

          I have been called a fan by many over the span of time that I have been here, so no, that was not directed specifically at you. I’ve also been accused of being harsh and rough around the edges and If that’s how people see me I accept it. I am mindful of others to the extent that I can be without having to change my opinions or delivery only to suit others. THAT would be wearing a mask. It’s just an avatar.

  27. mollyb5 says:

    Maybe you will cry ? And you want to avoid showing that emotion with the doctors . The good doctors have empathic skills to ask deep introspective questions ….you don’t want to cry in front of them ?

    1. HG Tudor says:

      I do not cry.

      1. mollyb5 says:

        Did you get slapped or humiliated criticized if you did when very young

        1. HG Tudor says:

          I did.

          1. mollyb5 says:

            That’s the same with my husband. That makes me real mad at his mom and dad . He says he older sisters did too .

          2. mollyb5 says:

            His mother was overly sexual …with him also . I don’t mean she raped him but she would comment in front of me about what a nice ass her son had ! He told me he was afraid she wanted him to sleep with her ….but then later he changed that comment to …more neutral comment whenever I would bring up topic.

      2. mollyb5 says:

        To me that’s like saying you don’t fart . Lol.

      3. K says:

        When I visit Narc Vegas, I am not allowed to cry because it is against the rules.

        I can only cry when I am in empath world.

        That is what I learned to do as a very young child. Crying is too dangerous.

        1. WhoCares says:


          “Crying is too dangerous.”

          I’m sorry, K. No child should feel like it is dangerous to cry.

          I don’t recall feeling that way as a child…Fast forward to my last relationship – I also don’t remember my ex’s exact words (and I’m glad that I have forgotten)- but I do recall being made to feel weak if I cried around him. I attributed that to his cultural background and that men often are taught it is weak to cry.
          I would fight the lump in my throat, because I hated to feel weak, but I couldn’t control the tears that would well up in my eyes…I remember working very hard to stare upward at the sky so the tears would slowly evaporate before they even fell down my face…it didn’t solve anything anyway. I would wait and cry alone or at night.

          Towards the end, I recall with extreme clarity the day he turned to me and said: “You don’t cry anymore.” I turned and walked away. He was right.

          1. K says:

            Thank you for your kind words WhoCares
            That was all instinct and then I learned to hide from my parents so they couldn’t hurt me like they hurt my other siblings.

            Crying is a sign of weakness in their world and it is too dangerous to show that emotion and, when they see it, they zero in on it and learn how to use it to their advantage. And you learned how to hide it, too, by crying alone or at night. That is a protective instinct.

            And he noticed that you stopped crying and he even told you (they watch your every move) and that was instinctive on his part.

            I am glad that you walked away, that was self-preservation.

          2. WhoCares says:

            Yes, K – thank-you for elaborating on what crying meant in your world. You are absolutely right;

          3. K says:

            My pleasure WhoCares
            I think instinct drives us more than we think. It really is survival.

      4. Chihuahuamum says:

        Crying is healing. Npd is so messed up. I cant imagine witholding emotion like that. I have become apathetic in certain situations in regards to my mother. I guess it becomes a coping mechanism to a narcissist altho an extreme one. I think no crying is a result of deep compartmentalization. Again an engrained survival mechanism.
        I compartmentalize a lot but i find if i start thinking a lot about certain things in my life it can tap into deep hurt and i will feel like crying. For the most part i keep those tucked away. I try to focus on the things that make me happy and in return healthy.

      5. Chihuahuamum says:

        Thats so wrong your mother slapped you HG. We havent even spanked our children. Its physical abuse. Theres something about slapping a child that is so deeply demeaning psychologically. It creates terrible shame and takes away self worth. Shame on your mother!

  28. Persephone In Sunlight says:


    ‘I would avoid the abuse I suffered.’
    I would have wanted this too, if there is a choice.

    When it is the adult abuser that is in power, the abuse is inescapable.
    You can only defend yourself as best you can.
    Thus we become what we are now………….

    1. Renarde says:

      i may be running against the popular opinion here. Whilst I would not say that I wanted the abuse that was meted out to me as a child, i simply would NOT be the person I am now. I would be a less well rounded, more shallow, not seeing the bigger picture, kind of person. Certainly less effective as a mother myself.

      As karma is being thrown into the mix, I will throw in the concept of the ‘wounded healer’.

      These are my wounds. I seek to heal them. If others can gain some benefit, then so be it.

      Yes, I absolutely believe in karma even if not in a ‘woo way’ Treat enough people badly and eventually they will turn their backs. Cause and effect. PN is reaping the results of his behaviour. Little PA MN will be able to cling on in there longer. But she too; will tumble. Given enough time.

      I used to be so scared of her when very little. She used to wind herself up into such a ‘fugue’ state that she used to bark like a dog. I kid you not.

  29. evoking dahlias says:

    I cannot even imagine having a mother who doesn’t love her child. Despite the lack of nurturing love from the only human you should have received it, it didn’t keep you from becoming the man who saves so many lives with your creativity, and information that no one else could provide. And many try.
    The knowledge I’ve received from your mighty effort has healed me.
    So if I never said it, here’s my thank you..

    1. evoking dahlias says:

      From the bottom of my heart.

  30. brokenrainbow says:

    My heart breaks for you. Your life would be incredibly different if you had not suffered abuse from Matrinarc.

  31. Fine Wine says:


    What would be your mother’s reaction if she read your blog? And especially the things that you wrote about her?

    If she already did, how did she react?

    1. HG Tudor says:

      She hasn’t.

      It would ignite her fury, naturally and she would respond through denial as her first line of defence and then apply alternative manipulations to remove any accountability and attempt to draw fuel to address the wounding that has been caused.

      1. Fine Wine says:

        I don’t know what to say. May God reward your patience on your mother.

        Didn’t want to mention that, but usually men cling to their mothers. Until an old age. I have my brother who is a narcissist, until now he fights for my mother’s attention and affection (He is married, thou). And he gets jealous if her attention shifted to someone else.

        HG. You have awareness, intelligence, respect and place in people’s heart; instead. And am sure that there is more and more in you.

        1. HG Tudor says:

          I appreciate your comment.

      2. Lou says:

        HG, I thought your mother did read your blog and even commented sometimes. It was then not her after all?

        1. HG Tudor says:

          No, I make a joke about certain hostile comments as coming from my mother.

          1. Lou says:

            So she doesn’t know you have a blog? Hmmm. I totally misunderstood then. I thought she knew about it.

      3. Renarde says:

        “HG was always a problem child. Naturally precocious. Astonishing intellectual capability. He could read by the age of three. Many a time we tried to ‘reign him in’ but there was no reasoning.with him. What HG wanted, HG got.

        He was a bright lad at school but intellectually lazy. He could have excelled in many fields if he had applied himself. Unfortunately, he didn’t. He then turned this around on us – much to my husband and I’s great, great pity. I cannot begin to speak of how he hurt us both through the years.

        We have supported him endlessly. We love him both very much indeed and always will.

        We both want him to get better. To this end we are willing to do whatever it takes.”

        How close did I get?

        1. HG Tudor says:

          Not close.

          1. Renarde says:


      4. Mik says:

        Yep.The script.

      5. E&L says:

        Hi HG, there is a gentleman on YouTube named Daniel Mackler who interviewed the son of ALICE MILLER, the author. Your response in regards to your mother’s predicted reaction is so similar to what the grown son of this world-renowned writer has said. He, too, wrote a book that has been translated from German describing the public vs.the private persona of his famous mother. Thanks for keeping it real!

    2. Chihuahuamum says:

      I hope one day your mother reads all your books and the blog HG. From what youve written about her i imagine her reading a bit then shaking her head and denying it. I also envision her breaking down and throwing a crying fit saying after all shes done for you over the years and how far youve come how could you paint a picture of her like this!! Then when the dust settled she would twist your success and brag about how she made you into the person you are. She did in some regards but not the creative parts and the choice to share your knowledge that was you alone HG. Your reasons mightve stemmed from personal gain but it was your choice how you went about it. Your creativity you were born with and she cant claim that to be bc of her altho im sure she would…one things for certain she would never self reflect or admit or acknowledge having npd.

  32. Dmd says:

    How do narcs, in general, feel about their mothers? ESP if the mother was a narc? And if they don’t feel anything good, why are they nice to her? At least the one I married. Seemed her hated her deep down yet didn’t exactly stand up to her either. It’s odd really.

    Did you have a relationship with your mother in your adult life HG?

    1. HG Tudor says:

      Narcissists view them as appliances, same as anybody else in the fuel matrix and therefore they are treated in accordance with what we need, thus if the facade requires harmonious relationships between narcissist son and mother then this will largely occur.

      I have as little to do with her as possible.

      1. Kim e says:

        This gets more heart wrenching the more I read

  33. Mik says:

    Hi HG, well I have figured out after all this time that I was “raised” by a matrinarc.Also a lower midranger for a “father”. It was with great interest I clicked on this. It has finally come to a sad realization of what has to happen. Your writings are spot on and were a huge help.Sickening and liberating at the same time. I wish you the best on this one, been there.

  34. Anm says:

    I relate. I was happy when I turned 18 and moved out. I started making a decent living at 19, where I could even help my siblings out. I found it so odd that people are obsessed with asking questions like, “where did you grow up?” “What highschool did you attend?” All the way up until i turned 30. I didnt want to talk about all of that. Ask me anything else, like where I went to college, what career I have, where is my favorite restaurant, etc. Please don’t ask about the years when my parents dictated my life and made aweful decisions

    1. Mat says:

      Hi HG, anything we do in a session is for ourselves. Not for the Dr. you are the only one playing … not the Dr. she tries to help you find ways to communicate with your inner you. The shrinks are all replaceable. We need the best diplomats to come into contact with our core. Once found though it doesn’t mean it has to change rather than to acknowledge and to accept. sometimes accepting the truth accepting who you truly are already levels down the fury and the insecurity because a more adult version of you comes and see your younger self. It needs to see how strong you are now and how much more you are able to protect yourself. Nothing can harm you anymore. YOU are master of your destiny. And YOU have the choice. Or ruin the rest of your days here on earth addicted to the control what is a false control because nothing can’t be control for ever or liberate yourself from this monster that holds you down for eternity. At the end YOU are the only one who is controlled by your fear and anger/devastation. Choose! Lay down so vultures of the past will continue to pick you soul out or stand up and say fuck you i don’t have the luxury to be traumatized I only have one life and I want to live it fully. You are smart enough to understand that what you lived through is NOT Reality for most of us. Good luck!

  35. Bubbles🍾 says:

    Dear Mr Tudor,
    Do you have anything to do with your mother at all …ie speak to, see, family gatherings, special occasions, funerals, weddings, or is it purely strictly legal and medical?
    Thank you
    Luv Bubbles xx

    1. HG Tudor says:

      She telephones me and I am in her company at family events.

      1. Bubbles🍾 says:

        Dear Mr Tudor,
        Thank you for your reply

        How old is your mum, is her behaviour worse with age and is she aging badly
        With thanks
        Luv Bubbles xx

      2. Kathy Mor says:

        I don’t want to probe. I am simply curious. It may be a rhetorical question (oh well).
        I understand that your family is aware of you as a narcissist.
        Is your mother aware of that as well? Does she understand her part on it? I just had to ask….

        1. HG Tudor says:

          They do. She does albeit she does not recognise herself as one (naturally) nor her role.

      3. Chihuahuamum says:

        You have more to do with your mother HG. My mother and i only text a few words and see each other maybe once a month to visit her grandkids.
        I have to say it makes me sad i couldnt have had a close mother daughter relationship but i am glad to be distant from her toxicity. I miss when we did hang out years ago her narcissism wasnt as bad. I do know it to be true that npd gets worse with age. Narcissists dont mellow their npd evolves and gets worse. They also become more cynical.

        1. NarcAngel says:

          Do you think its the case that her narcissism got worse or you became more aware of her behaviours so they did not seem as subtle as they once might have? That you now see them and look for them so they seem more pronounced?

      4. Chihuahuamum says:

        Hi narcangel…ty for your question which id wondered and thought about. I think its a bit of both but i do see how her npd is worse within the past 15 yrs or so. Growing up she wasnt as obsessed with my brother and she didnt gaslight as much as she does now. The more independant i became the more her npd grew or became evident. As a child and teen i went along with her program but as soon as i became an individual with my own opinions and thoughts she was in opposition. Thats when she clung onto my brother and made him her golden child which he enjoys being. Since moving out at age 19 her npd has over the years became very evident and worse. If i say the sky is blue she will say its black. Her gaslightings nonstop and she will constantly devalue me and put down anything i feel passionate about. An example is my passion for health related topics. Ive been a vegan for years and daily fast along with being interested in the keto side. Anytime i bring any of this up she will tell me why xyz is unhealthy or wrong. It makes me laugh bc shes a chainsmoker and on meds not to mention has a tire of fat around her middle. Its gotten to the point i no longer bring up anything im interested in or feel passionate about with her. In a way its a form of no contact. I keep the conversation very limited.

        1. NarcAngel says:

          Ah, interesting. I like to hear the view of others on that, so thanks for responding with your experience. I cant remember – how is your relationship with your brother?

  36. HappyTimesAhead says:

    Sadness, anger, frustration. Why do people expect a child to understand adult emotions (not all adults are created equal)? Why do some people get annoyed when an infant cries?; this is their only way of communicating something is wrong (ill, pain, wind, hunger, thirst, too hot or cold, wet, lonely, etc). For a young mind to try and navigate a dysfunctional home, to make sense of events, own feelings and relationships, and survive To watch every nuance for clues on how to act or respond, only for the nuances to be contradictory. Do as I say, not as I act. Do as I say and act, but tell no one. Now I see you, now I don’t. One facade after another. The ground constantly shifting. Eagerness to please to maintain some semblance of status quo, or anger and shame at oneself for getting things ‘wrong’. Aiming for perfection only to fail. Looking for love, loyalty and a haven of peace, safety and understanding; constantly pushing and punishing others’ boundaries to test their validity and steadfastness, but resolutely rejecting them when they ‘fail’. The child is not at fault, but how does that child arrive at adulthood with their own sense of self and emotional integrity, and not with the shattered multifaceted illusions of mirroring behaviour shown in childhood? Do you become a hypervigilant codependent people pleasing empath, or a hypervigilant mirroring angry narcissist? Does the empath survive by taking an unchallenging route, and the narcissist a challenging one? Empath = do no harm. Narcissist = destroy. If an empath can recover and rebalance their emotional boundaries, can a narcissist also recover? Are empaths and narcissists two sides of the same coin? Wishing everyone a good outcome xxx.

    1. Caroline R says:

      Hi HappyTimesAhead
      your comments and their complexity demonstrate why so many of us, including HG, are in therapy.

      1. HappyTimesAhead says:

        Hello Caroline R,thanks for your response. It took me a long time to find this perspective; looking back I was actually a good kid made to feel inadequate and went into adulthood trying to be good and desperate not to fail because that failing would be all mine! (No one can be perfect). It made me vulnerable to narc relationships and the cycle continued. I often ‘hug’ the child in me and reaffirm that I did my very best given the odds. We’ve all been through a lot. Sending a collective inclusive hug to you all. Xxx

    2. Kathy Mor says:

      Yes, we absolutely are. That is why we never give up on each other.

      1. HappyTimesAhead says:

        Hello Kathy Mor, thanks for your response. Perhaps both empaths and narcs have a void that we both ‘need’ to fill. Empaths become so injured because we don’t understand why by doing good we are perceived as ‘doing wrong’ and have to be ‘punished’. Relationships are reciprocal; empaths love and anticipate that love to be returned, whereas narcs want but cannot trust love. This is a complex conundrum, but we are now adults and fortunate to have (empaths and narcs) become self aware and to have found HG and his inclusive blog. We have to be honest with ourselves, embrace reality, put aside old habits and heed HGs advice. We can support and encourage each other, but we are still individuals who have to learn to walk again, no one else can do it for us and i think it takes courage and a leap of Faith. It does get easier. We’re the lucky ones. Xxx

  37. E. B. says:

    She asked if there was anybody in your immediate family you would like to discuss with her and you said No. She asked why and you did not want to answer that question. She insisted you should talk about a family member and then again (!) she insisted you should talk about your mother.

    IMO, she does not seem to care about your boundaries.

    1. Renarde says:

      Very true…

    2. Kathy Mor says:

      She is doing her job.
      Her job is to get inside where the pain is.
      Without that, he won’t get better. The infection. He is infected.
      What he is doing by getting up and leaving is avoiding the pain. He is showing how painful it is. He is not playing that damn game. But the doc won’t give up. She can’t give up. If she does, then she fails. If she fails, HG fails. And if HG fails, then his mother wins, again.

      1. Clarece says:

        Agreed Kathy Mor! I wish my therapist would have even attempted to dig a bit deeper with me rather just focus on future goal setting. I’ve never interpreted Dr. O as pushing HG too hard. Again, he has the mental stamina to handle it. She is doing her job. He’s not there for warm and fuzzies, which he doesn’t do anywhere else anyways.

        1. E. B. says:

          Hello Clarece,

          Re: “I wish my therapist would have even attempted to dig a bit deeper with me … I’ve never interpreted Dr. O as pushing HG too hard. Again, he has the mental stamina to handle it. She is doing her job. He’s not there for warm and fuzzies…”

          I understand that in your particular case you wished your therapist would have tried to dig deeper with you. However, it does not mean that this is the right method for everyone else.

          Reading/learning about particular form of abuse and actually *experiencing* it are two different things.

          There are memories which are painful to talk about but still manageable and there are other memories and experiences which are **unbearable**. Opening a drawer of excruciating memories can be dangerous, if not done in a professional way and when the client is ready to do so.

          People with a NPD cannot necessarily deal with trauma better than those without this disorder.

          Having empathy and respecting a client’s boundaries is not too much to ask from a trained therapist.

          1. Clarece says:

            I absolutely understand your points E.B. I still maintain, from my perspective, I do not see, in this particular interaction that HG writes, if it is exactly how the conversation transpired, that Dr. O was even being too pushy in the slightest here. HG likes to play cat and mouse with her.
            In another scenario, the patient could respond simply with, “not ready to talk about Mother today and not sure when that will happen. Pick someone else.” Then the doctor can move on to maintain a productive session.
            The underlying reason that HG will never fully trust or open up to Dr. E or Dr. O is because his mother and uncle pay for the therapy. Even if the doctors over time really want to see growth for HG and have the best interests for their patient at heart, there’s always going to be an impasse because HG was forced to go and didn’t pick these two doctors out.
            I do genuinely understand that some memories of horrific abuse do not need to relived or spoken in excrutiating detail just for the sake of “talking about it” and getting it out. Healing should always be the main focus.

      2. E. B. says:

        Hello Kathy,

        It is not a therapist’s job to *fix* a client at all costs by ignoring his boundaries. Therapists should have empathy and let clients move at their own pace. IMO, if HG does not want to get into it, he must have his reasons and the therapist should accept that.

        As for Matrinarc, she will not win. She is only a MRN who is not aware of what she is. She is not near as clever as her son.

        1. Kathy Mor says:

          I don’t read the word “fix” anywhere in my comment.

        2. Kathy Mor says:

          Hi E B,

          I don’t read the word “fix” anywhere in my comment. I didn’t imply that either.

          HG has a reason to be in therapy (even though against his will) and I bet it is not to sit down with his therapists and talk about niceties and mundane, superficial things so “boundaries” are not “violated”. If he is going to THERAPY is expected that uncomfortable subjects will be approached. It is the same as sending one of my post-op patients to physiotherapy expecting it won’t hurt. It WILL hurt. It is part of the recovery. Expect pain. Expect bruises. Expect swellings. Expect it getting worse before it gets better.

          It is silly to think that you will sit in front of a therapist and beat around the bush for years and never address the issue because “oh the client is not “ready”. Maybe some therapists… very much like my EX therapist would love that because they would be making an enormous amount of money waiting for the client to be “ready” to talk about it.
          I am not talking specifically about HG. I am talking about people in general.

          Leave it up to the client touching subjects would never be approached because people don’t like to get out of their comfort zone. People don’t like to face their wounds because it is uncomfortable, it is painful and many times it shows things that the person doesn’t want to see….

          No one has improved without facing one’s own ghosts, pain, sufferings.

          HG calls his mother a “Matrinarc” for a reason. She was his abuser, she was who created the environment, the “inspiration to survival” that he had to adopt to survive as a little boy.

          No, we cannot blame all on her but that woman is a major contributor to what happened to HG. Many times he stated that he doesn’t feel comfortable talking about the abuse he went through…. he doesn’t like talking about his mother. I can imagine why.

          It is not about wanting to get into it or not. It is about healing. For how long has he been doing therapy???? 3, 5 years? I am not sure. But at some point, the therapist has to say something or otherwise why is she there then????

          Leave it up to the alcoholic and he/she may never stop drinking and never will face the issue of alcoholism. Leave it to the drug addicted and he/she will never leave the drugs and face the issues that created the addiction. Leave up to some of us and we will never leave the narcs because it means we have to face our own co-dependent addiction.

          Leave it up to any addiction and the person won’t talk about it while it serves the person. If my narc had not dumped me, I wouldn’t be here texting this message. That was my point. Leave it up to HG and he may never talk about it.

          So yes. The therapist will ask questions, she will bring up his mother. She will. It is her job. She is being paid to bypass those defenses. And you better believe, if HG wrote about it is because he wanted something from us here. Otherwise he would not have mentioned it.

          His mother will win if he doesn’t improve. She created this wound in him plus other factors associated with the intrinsic make up of a narc/sociopath but besides that, she still affects him. It is only when he can overcome some of that of which bothers him regarding her is that she will be left behind. He removed himself physically away from her. But she is still in there… that little boy is still there in pain.

          I understand your viewpoint and I would agree with you if the therapist were crossing a boundary pre-stablished. If HG had made an agreement with his doctors saying: ok, I talk about this and that but I will not talk about my mother.

          I am unaware of such agreement. If that is the case, then I would say: yes she violated his boundary. But I am not aware of the agreement and understanding that he has been in therapy for a quite a while, she will ask.

          I guess my background as a healthcare provider gives me a different insight. I am not sure but I certainly push my patients. You gotta get better! You gotta move! Get up! Walk! Stop eating chocolate! Go to the gym! Wake up early! Press charges against your abusive husband! Get out! Do this and that. I am a royal pain in the ass but I am good at what I do. I am one of the best. I bring positive results. I am awesome at “do as I say but don’t do as I do”. Yep. I suck in my own life but that’s a different narc story.

          Said all that, I respect your opinion. I just see it necessary to push boundaries sometimes…. 🙂

  38. Cathie says:

    I’m sorry HG, I can’t go there either. I read a book and it said to respond to these things in the third person. It was helpful for me to remove myself (abet still painful) in this way. Take care.

    1. marecristalino says:

      I also didn’t want to go there.

      I am a daughter, scapegoat, of 2 narcs, a lesser (father) and a mid-range (mother). 15 years ago I went no contact. I knew I needed to do that just to survive. I also broke contact with the rest of the family.

      During therapy I didn’t want to speak about my family. Just about my present issues. After 3 years and lot of thrust in my therapists, during an experiential of BODY-psychology I released long held trauma shaking the body. Immediately after that I started to speak non stop about my family and all that had happened. That was a breaking point in my life.

      Now HG has given me a deeper understanding, the truth that my mother never say. And the sad realization that they never saw me as a person, never being loved.

      Thank you so much.

      I realize how I was conditioned to find again and again narcs in my life through partners, colleagues, neighbors… I kept repeating the past while not wanting to see it.

      It was not easy going there.

      And when ready it is really worth trying going there, with a trusted person, a loving presence, a witness. To show them what has happened. To hear that that was not ok. Life if bigger that our first imprint.

  39. abrokenwing says:

    This article reminds me so much about the session I had with my therapist two weeks ago.
    She is trying to access and heal my inner child.
    She was asking me about my needs and what is most important to me.
    ‘To feel safe ‘ I replied.
    She then wanted to know about the events when I did not feel safe.
    By using some techniques I am not familiar with ( visualization?) she put me in some kind of state of hypnosis and took me back when I could see myself as a child.
    I just followed her instructions and I wasn’t prepared for that…. And I always have to be prepared because it gives me a sense of control.
    She asked me to describe where I am , what am I wearing, how do I look… etc. She wanted me to talk to my younger self , promise to protect her ask her to give me a hand and take her to a safer place ( this is so fucked up ).
    When she finally let me slowly open my eyes the tears were running down my face.
    ‘ What did she say when you ask her to follow you? Was she happy?’
    ‘ No , she was very hesitant. She wanted to but she wasn’t sure if she can trust me’ i replied.
    ‘ This little girl is still trapped inside you and she doesn’t feel safe. You will rescue her.She needs your love , care and compassion to make peace with the past ‘ my therapist said.

    The whole exercise was so instense and horrifying…It brought all trauma, fear and some repressed memories back. I don’t even remember how I got home afterwards.

    I said to her I will not do this again.

    1. Dash says:

      Sorry to hear that it was so difficult for you. I would encourage you to realise that what came up in that session was what had been stored deep deep inside of you in your subconscious mind for so long affecting you all that time since it happened. It may take a while to settle with the released memories but a good therapist should advise you and help you also deal with the feelings that arose as a result of this session. As humans we are unique in having the ability to have thoughts about our thoughts and feelings about feelings… so if there is a lot in you happening after that session please consider getting more help to settle it all… releasing trauma is a process but one that leads to many improvements in life and now you understand a bit more about yourself you are in control when you decide you are ready for more liberation as when led properly this kind of work allows dropping all that piled up stuff. Perhaps you may want to find a therapist who works also with techniques that do not involve direct regression (that’s the technique you described) and just work with feeling states to release from the subconscious to make it easier for you. Some of this stuff you can learn and start taking control when to use them on your own. Good luck.

      1. abrokenwing says:

        Thank you.

      2. abrokenwing says:

        Hi Dash,

        Hope you’re well.

        I discussed this session with my therapist explaining how i felt afterward. She said she appreciates my feedback and that she is sorry and she understands that it was difficult for me etc .( all the right things basically) . She also said that this is a very powerful tool and maybe it wouldn’t be as effective if I would know beforehand.She also said that we don’t have to do it if I don’t want to.
        I was thinking about what you said and decided to give it a go again. My therapist booked me this time for a longer session to have enough time to deal with my emotions afterwards and to make sure I will not leave in the same state as the last time.
        I feel fear but I want to do it anyway.

        As Andy Dufresne said in one of my favourite movies
        “ Get busy living or get busy dying “

        Thank you for your encouragement.

    2. wissh says:

      Ah, the work of John Bradshaw. I went and TRIED to rescue my inner child many years ago too.

      1. Kathy Mor says:

        Never happened to me. What is done is done. Every therapist and every support group has tried to address my inner child to “cure” my co-dependency. They failed miserably and only made me rage. Because it morphs into something else. The presentation. The intrinsic need is there and I chase that fulfillment. I need the “other”. I need the approval. I can’t fail. I always fail.

        For years I hated the title “co-dependent”. Now I can’t deny it. It is rather dangerous for me to deny it. Because to accept that I am a co-dependent empath explained why I almost died when he left me. My whole world, my whole self crumbled.

        1. MB says:

          Kathy, I don’t know about you, but I don’t believe co-dependency can be cured any more than narcissism can. I don’t care for therapists. No offense to anybody that is a therapist. Maybe I just haven’t worked with a good one. I did like Quasi though. I enjoyed our conversations.

          1. Kathy Mor says:

            I don’t believe it can be cured either. I am who I am. That’s it.

      2. MB says:

        Wissh, I found Bradshaw’s work on toxic shame very helpful in understanding the making of the co-d as well as the narcissist. I’m not doing the “healing” work in the book. What I found useful was in the first few chapters. I’m not interested in staring that creature down yet. I don’t know if I’ll ever be and I’m ok with that.

    3. Caroline says:

      How overwhelming for you.
      How painful.
      Little wonder you can’t remember how you got home.
      Thanks for sharing your experience with us. Feeling safe is an ongoing theme of my life.

    4. Em says:

      Abrokenwing – to feel safe was all I ever asked of my greater narc. He put me in a very small box and played on that insecurity as a major part of his control of me. Triangulation, lies, snide remarks. I see it all now.

    5. saskia says:


      I really feel for you. I had (to endure) those sessions, too, and whereas I clearly enjoyed the more analytical part of the sessions where I was given opportunity to share my own thoughts and conclusions and relate to the counsellor’s instructions and Information provided, I felt extremely uncomfortable and unsettled to the point of panic when my therapist used a similar technique where she wanted me to visualize and guide ‘my inner child’ and find a safe haven for her. As your experience seems similar, I can relate to what you have written. I felt completely out of control which I normally avoid at all costs and was close to a severe panic attack when we were in the midst of the session.

      We had to end this session as I did not want to follow through with the task. As weird as it may sound, I had to resist the impulse to laugh when she started to ask me what I, the adult, would tell my inner child though I know and understand why she found it important and did not want to ridicule her expertise, but getting to the core of the traumatic experience seems to be too much and too painful and I am not sure whether I want to release what has been bottled up for so long.


      1. abrokenwing says:

        Thank you Saskia . I appreciate your comment.

    6. Renarde says:

      Oh lordy lordy – where does one begin?

      Firstly [hugs]. Utterly unprofessional of that so called ‘therapist’ to do this to you without first COMPLETELY underlying what the process entailed and then seeking your positive, unqualified, consent as well outlining any side effects of the process. Utterly wrong and utterly unprofessional.

      One of the matters that I have never seen HG address (although he may have done and I simply haven’t accessed it) is a very very special superpower some of the Es have. It is the ability to access ‘altered states’.without taking an external drug. It’s usually NOT alcohol which acts as a depressant. It can be through narcotics. There are other ways which I’m not going to go into here. Hypnosis is one of those ways though.

      This part

      This little girl is still trapped inside you and she doesn’t feel safe. You will rescue her.She needs your love , care and compassion to make peace with the past ‘ my therapist said.

      Was very probably true but she transgressed so far on your own boundaries. it is ghastly. Setting back the own work you needed to do. I do hope you are feeling better?

      Do you have RL suipport?

  40. Kelly says:

    HG, if you could go back in time when you were little, knowing what you know now, what would you change? And would you choose not to be a narcissist?

    1. HG Tudor says:

      I would avoid the abuse I suffered.

      1. Caroline says:

        Hmmm… and *if* you believe avoiding abuse would mean you wouldn’t evolve into a narcissist… this seems the most significant answer you’ve ever given. I’d go one step more, but best not.

        1. Clarece says:

          I take his answer to mean if he was able to avoid the abuse, he wouldn’t be fragmented and could see what Little HG could have become if properly nurtured and encouraged. He would feel whole rather than feeling there is a creature full of fury at his core driving his every move.

          1. Caroline says:

            Tx for the reply, Clarece…made me sad, but it’s reality…&unfair.:(

      2. MB says:

        HG, do you consider narcissism as a post traumatic disorder?

        1. HG Tudor says:

          Not exclusively.

          1. MB says:

            Childhood trauma certainly is a key ingredient in the making of many a disordered individual.

      3. NarcAngel says:

        In what meaningful and specific ways do you think your life would be different today had you not suffered her abuse?

        1. HG Tudor says:

          There is a distinct possibility I would not be what I am and that would have both positive and negative effects.

      4. Kathy says:

        Gosh I am so sorry HG. That’s a very real statement. A fair one at that.

      5. debedgar says:

        Why do you think abusive childhoods yield two completely different products? Wouldn’t it be fair to say empaths and narcissists are born of abuse? The super, mid, low would of course be applicable based on the genes melding and yielding varying degrees of intelligence. I know my abusive childhood made me angry and my way of working through that was to become more loving and work to heal and support the underdog…

        1. HG Tudor says:

          There can be the slightest difference in the ‘ingredients’ yet there is a significant divergence in outcome. Why is that? Nobody knows – it is the complexity of human character and personality.

      6. NarcAngel says:

        If you could go back, what steps would you take to avoid the abuse? Would you tell someone? Adopt her behaviours and manipulations earlier to counter hers? What do you feel could be changed?

        1. HG Tudor says:

          Stayed at home in November rather than going outside.

          1. mollyb5 says:

            Do you mean avoid the holidays , family gatherings ?

          2. HG Tudor says:

            Some of them.

          3. Lou says:

            I thought you were referring to the episode where Matrinarc left you outside the house in the cold and wouldn’t let you in until you learned a poem by heart. But I am not sure you had snow already in November.
            Where you referring to this HG?

            I should stay at home this coming November but it seems I will have to deal with my narc relatives 😒

          4. mollyb5 says:

            In my own belief …I tried to get my money’s worth . The therapist is just a tool …find a good one that has “seen it all” Go on the ride , get the healing you are paying for , cry your eyes out , loose your inhibitions , don’t give a shit about how embarrassed you are , just go with the flow. They try to get you to relax and experience the hour you pay them hundreds and hundreds. What is the point , or what the fuck are you there for if you can’t look at yourself as a child ….a dependent totally helpless little tiny baby. I know it’s hard …..I’ve done it …..YOU can to !

      7. Alix F. Nefertiti says:

        We all would do that eh? From time before time, would be so sweet to grow and evolve, unfettered by the malicious violence we all are wounded deeply and profoundly by. Important question: Would you go back and unabuse the extensive abuses you have acted out on others to suffer at your very hands, mind, soul, and heart?

      8. Dash says:

        For your own reasons you are in therapy. You described your past experiences and clearly stated you would avoid the abuse you suffered. Im curious, if there was a way to free yourself now from those memories of the past once and for all without talking and analysing them but simply by following instructions, knowing you are always in control and can stop, pause or walk away just like you did with your Dr before, would you go for it and try? Have you considered changing your memories before you are actually ready for it and considering things after it’s done so by the time you realise what’s going on it’s about changing them and feeling good as a result, knowing there is a part of you that is curious how far this could take you beyond what you experienced thus far in life? How quickly would you jump on board with such experiment? After all you are alway free to choose remaining constantly uncomfortable about your childhood when its brought up by your Dr or anyone else for that matter.

    2. MB says:

      Great question Kelly!

  41. Kim e says:

    LOL….a definite master at his trade.

  42. Liderien says:

    FEAR. It’s the root of them all. Fear of that black hole, fear that what your mother said and did to you was justified. The strongest one isn’t the one in control (because control is an illusion.) And let’s face it, narcs are not strong. That’s why they do what they do. I challenge you to venture where no narc has gone before.

  43. FMV says:

    I feel so sad for that little boy…

  44. Caroline says:

    Would it be much easier for you to answer that if someone other than a qualified doctor asked you it? That question seems to put a great deal of control in your lap, so you could do anything with it, so I wonder why you didn’t look at it like a challenge you could flick away.

    1. Mercy says:

      Caroline, him walking away was a demonstration of his control in my opinion

      1. Caroline says:

        Tx, Mercy… you’re right~I sometimes forget that part. Heck, they can even refuse to answer everyday, friendly questions just because of the “how-dare-you-hold-me-to-account” thing, and that one actually makes me laugh (“What’d you have for lunch?” is, apparently, a matter of national security).

  45. MB says:

    HG, you are brilliant. Giving the fans what they ask for. Nothing but respect for you, Sir.

  46. Kelly says:

    Typical Narcissist, you build it up, and only tease.

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