Both Dr O and Dr E (the good doctors) repeatedly like to ask me about my childhood. I do not like to talk about it. I tell them that I do not like to and the reason for that is that I do not remember much about it and therefore I feel uncomfortable talking about something which I do not feel in control of. Everyone is like that though aren’t they? If you are making a presentation but you only have half the material, you feel uncomfortable don’t you? I you are asked a question by somebody but you do not have all the information to hand, you feel uneasy. I explained that was my response and that it was an entirely understandable one. I’m not telling them the real reason behind my recalcitrance. Not a chance.

Unfortunately, Dr O then gets the bit between her teeth in one of our sessions and decides she would like to talk to me about family.

“Who has pinched your bagel this week then? Your brother or your sister?” I shot back seeking to deflect her. She ignored my remark and pressed on.

“Is there anybody in your immediate family you would like to discuss with me?” she asked.



Where do I start ? Why would I want to talk about people I rarely bother with (save my brother)? Why is it that these people assume that I have some overriding desire to discuss a group of people who I am related to but have nothing in common with? What is the obsession?

I remained silent.

“Okay, how about I choose a family member and you tell me three things that you like about them and three things that you do not like about them. Just as something to start our conversation?” she suggested.

I remained silent.

“How about your mother?” she asked and looked at me expectantly.

I got up and left the room. I’m not playing that game with Dr O. No way.


165 thoughts on “MatriNarc”

  1. I meant you are absolutely right; it was self-preservation for me to stop feeling anything anymore…to choose to *not* feel saved me.

    And I can’t help but go where this thought leads me…when we say that a narc is ‘choosing’ to not feel, are we then denying their right to self-preservation and calling them ‘inhuman’?

  2. I make my holidays my own . My narc will not go to his mothers anymore. My kids do because she’s not as toxic to them . She did grab my daughters thigh in the backseat one time that mad me want to punch her lol

  3. Well what I see with my narc husbands mother is she wanted him to be a man too young …act like a man ..she slapped him when he cried and so did his father . He had to be the adult male of the household when his dad was gone …she had no idea how to raise a boy …( she was raised by alcoholics and the only child …she hated her parents). She made her son the surrogate husband for herself

  4. I ofter wonder about narcissism as as part of mental illness. In dealing with my own mentally ill mother (who was diagnosed as schizophrenic) I notice many narc characteristics. Physical violence, no boundaries, projecting, denial. She did get a formal diagnosis many years ago and has been on medication that changes every few years. Of course reading your blog makes me start to wonder if she was misdiagnosed and is just a Narc and the medication she is on is actually making her more crazy. If a Narc were to be on medication (willingly of course as you say they are in such denial that anything is wrong with them) I often wonder what the result would be….

    Just current thoughts in my head as I ponder my own mother who I do not think is a Narc but sure has many boxes ticked off so to say!

    1. Hey there lovely. Are you reading my mind? You swine! 🙂 🙂 x

      I’m thinking a lot about the female Ns. I have also been pondering your very point exactly. Forgive me if I get this wrong but my question to myself is, ‘Could an N fake a SERIOUS mental illness in order to get fuel/attention?’

      My jury is still out on this but it’s niggling at me. V v quick ‘potted’ history.

      Matrinarc (MN) marries Patrinarc (PN)

      Seven years later, I crop up. She has a complete an utter psychotic episode directly after my birth requiring immediate hospitalisation. This is v v rare Happens in 1 in 1000 births. Nine months later and several Electro Conductive Therapy sessions and she is released.

      Same thing happens for my brother who is born 3 or so years later.

      Then a break for many years. It beings again when I am 13/14 and bro is 10/11. This happens a further two times. Both of us are forbidden to talk about with others what is going on. Including school.

      To directly answer your own question Fuel On the Shelf, MN is on a v v low dose of anti psychs called in the UK Risperidone

      Physical violence, no boundaries, projecting, denial.

      Check, check and check!

      Even extending to wanting to know EXACTLY what I get up to in bed with a partner. Not withstanding I am a forty year old, independent woman A Dominatrix and a BDSM educator. Totally and utterly inappropriate behaviour for her to DEMAND to know what I do in bed. Entirely usual behaviour for a N though.

      I have no answers FOTS but I think we are asking the right questions.

      1. LOL Renarde, I guess I must be…it is nice to see someone on the same wavelength!

        I wrote a more descriptive response about my mentally ill mother and how her behavior toward me as a child has manifested in my relationship sexually with my MMRN. It is on another article’s thread….

        I found it so that I do not need to re-type (if you are curious and wish to read it):

        Anyway, what you have described is so eerie and creepy compared to parts of my situation!!! My mother was diagnosed with severe PPD and then later severe depression and schizophrenia when I was 6 months old. She was hospitalized twice for trying to take her life. She was/has been on Risperdone as well. I did not have any siblings though. The doctors told her with her meds and illness she was advised to never get pregnant again.

        She has overstepped on all boundaries of my life. I could give examples but I hate wasting my breath on her. I have cut her out of my life and she continually tries to break through like nothing ever happened and I did not tell her to leave me alone. (for example still mailing me things an having relatives email me on her behalf). I do still talk to my father which makes it difficult as he is bound to her and refuses to leave.

        I am curious to exchange further thoughts with you about this but I also worry about dredging up something more awful than the comment link I posted above. I already compared a memory to something she did to me as a child (which I hated and made me miserable) to a sexual behavior I now engage in with my mid-range piano boy Narc (which I find thrilling, despite my disgust at having endured such as a child).

        I feel like I am a Pandora’s box waiting to be opened lately and it scares the shit out of me.

      2. Hello lovely

        I wrote a more descriptive response about my mentally ill mother and how her behavior toward me as a child has manifested in my relationship sexually with my MMRN. It is on another article’s thread….

        Have read this and responded on that thread. Thank you.

        Can I advise caution here? I can see (in fact I know from my own experience) that just because something happened in our childhood that we later go on to enjoy as an adult, doesn’t necessarily mean that those two concepts are linked. They could be… but not necessarily so.

        I perceive strongly that you have a sense of guilt and shame wrapped up in this and I totally hear you and understand you. Even if they were linked, there is no need to feel these negative emotions. Give yourself permission to release them as they serve no purpose and could possibly be twisted and used against you by the now infamous piano man.

        PN would say, there is nothing new under the sun. As long as it’s not illegal or a paraphilia then let the good times roll!

        Shame, oh yes my old friend. MN dearly wanted to ‘put this on me’. Be ashamed of my body. Nice girls do this or they certainly don’t do that. Keep your legs together. Don’t wear those shoes. nor that top for going out, you slut. No sex before marriage. PROMISE ME! No, you and your boyfriend cannot sleep in the same bed. I don’t care if he’s your fiance.

        On and on through the years she went before finally culminating in her wanting a blow by blow account of my sex life. (Jeez ma, just read frickin’ Fet FFS). So I formed an opinion of her which was, that she was a sexually repressed prude herself.

        Only in the last few months have I adjusted this. No she bloody well isn’t. Classic case of do what I say, not what I do. In fact, I perceive her to be quite the exhibitionist, maybe even more than I am and I’m bad enough. Possibly affairs herself while PN at work. In fact very probably.

        No, what I perceive MN has done is to deploy the much darker aspect of the sex manipulation that HG has described. But this is the twisting of a healthy, normal sex life, sexual responses and using the concept of ‘sex as weapon’. Sex as weapon is sex as control and she was utilising it in EXACTLY the same way. To get me so wound up about the whole subject, it bound me closer to her.

        I feel like I am a Pandora’s box waiting to be opened lately and it scares the shit out of me.

        In that case, go with your gut instinct. Always. It is possible that there is repressed stuff in there. In time, I think you know it needs to be opened but only at your own pace and only on your own terms. When that day comes, I will be here. As will others.

      3. Hi Renarde,

        Yes I saw your other reply, thank you. As soon as I typed each of those stories out I immediately linked those 2 things (the smacking and the hair pulling) and I questioned myself like WHY? Why would I enjoy that? Your other response makes sense though so thank you. I am not sure if it was guilt or shame (perhaps underlying) but it was mainly shock like “WHY THE F WOULD I NOW ENJOY THAT?” Know what I mean?

        For some reason my mother never overstepped in my sex life so I cannot relate in that regard. As I said I do not think she is truly a narc, just mentally ill with some of the same boxes ticked. My father on the other hand would never leave her (despite knowing how unhealthy she was) however the rest of my family were pretty sure that my father was getting some on the side from the random flavor of the week girlfriend. For him I think it was more about the sex though. My father is definitely not a narc.

        “It is possible that there is repressed stuff in there.”

        I am sure there is. I have a feeling that the dynamic of my relationship with Piano boy probably relates more to all of this than I originally thought but that is enough dredging up for the time being.

      1. “Everything is a game.”

        This made me laugh! Very true! My Pretzel would certainly agree with that!

        But do you think midrangers feel this way? Sometimes I sense them having fun playing with people and circumstances, but often they seem too serious and uptight. I wonder if it’s the dichotomy of their false self-image and their narcissism or their lack of confidence that they are in control that keeps them from seeing everything as a game?

      2. They won’t see it as a game because they will not see much of what they do as manipulative, but rather as a response to the unnecessary provocations of the victim. You will get some MRs who would like to think that they are some manipulative mastermind but they are actually not, a consequence of the gap between what they imagine themselves to be and what they actually are.

      3. Midrangers do often think they’re much smarter than they are. There’s no doubt of that. It’s one of those mixed blessings. Good because you can often see thru them and avoid their BS. Bad because they can really be irritating to work and deal with.

      4. Windstorm…..your comment of “MRNs think they are smarter than they are” struck an opposite chord with me. They may think it but my MRN used to always say “I am not as smart as you think I am”. Maybe it was said for pity? He does exaggerate a lot. I liked 2 pics on FB once and within seconds I got a text “Please stop stalking my FB please”.

      5. “Please stop stalking my FB please”??

        Hold me back, Gabrielle!

        It’s so hard to explain how ticked off that makes me… yes, oh- tortured-one — who keeps Gabrielle tied to you through all form of manipulation — let’s pretend it’s all so beyond you, you sanctimonious faker/pity-player.

        That’s a prime example of what I mean by he annoys me (and the “please” is even more irritating)…

        I really wish I could think of something to get you to dump this guy.

      6. Sorry Caroline, I did not mean to throw a rock at the hornet’s nest of Piano boy tales. I was only sharing since this has just been on my mind as it was the last convo we had (over text) just about a week ago after a rather emotionally and sexually intense visit when I saw him.

        After the “stalking” comment he said I was “getting too close again” and he was feeling “uncomfortable again”. He then said I was obsessed with him and that he is “narrowly clinging to his sanity and was being pushed to the edge of comfort and patience” with me. And lastly “something has to change here before I lose my mind”.

        My reply was “It seems like you want some space again”.

        Him: “I am not abandoning you okay?” (he always says that when we have these discussions) and then “We just need to take a few steps back okay?”

        Dump him? You make it sound like we are BF/GF. I am a DLS. I do not think he would give a flying shit if I dumped him. Last year I went 5 months of no contact (at HIS request) and he did not give one iota of a shit. Then suddenly he started liking my pics and I reached out and….here we are.

        I have not reached out since this conversation and I do not plan to. And with his new baby arriving any day now, I will soon be the last thing on his mind anyway.

        Yeah the “please” irked me too. That is his moniker though. Always Mr. Nice Guy. Polite. Calm. Good mannered. With undertones of woe is me I am so tortured.

      7. Don’t be sorry, Gabrielle~you’re just being honest… it’s just hard to hear (see) his crap!

        I know you’re a “DLS,” but you absolutely can dump him, in that you decide it is not okay and make a bold standing-up-for-yourself statement… I’d love you to do that, for YOU. Not him.

        I do like hearing you “do not plan” to reach out to him… and maybe you can get that to a definitive “will not” reach out to him…and how many steps are we away from “won’t reply back” to him, eh?…you know where I’m going with this, girl.;-)

        But for now, I seriously need to get off this blog…I actually had an errant random thought: “My (former) narcissist would be so much better for her,” — LOL — yeah, I’m getting off here! (No, I’m not serious…but that I even thought that he’s a better deal is ridiculous… all narcissists are a bad deal!…I think the mid-rangers trigger so much annoyance in me that I can’t think straight!).

      8. Caroline,
        “Won’t reply back to him”….? I doubt he is going to reach out to me for the time being. There was one time I did not reply to his text for 9 hours once. Maybe next time I can double that. I know where you are going with it.

        If I can just get through another few weeks I think I will be in a better spot. I was last intimate with him about a week ago and I am still feeling a little crazy in the head from it.

        Hey is your narc really better? If I know he is a narc in advance then he can just be a distraction right? Hmmmm.

        (I am just kidding!!!!!!)

        All kidding aside though, distractions would be good right now though….yes they would also likely be bad too. If one more person tells me “the best way to get over someone is to get under someone else” I may scream. LOL.

      9. Woohoo, 9 hours — I’ll take it! LOL… but it’s something – go you. We all get where we need to go in life one step at a time.

        That three-letter word is messing you up!… so maybe you can have some breathing space and clear your head. I like it.

        Yeah, my former is really better, lol… well, it’s all relative, but I say so because of certain aspects. I just gave KimE an update on that, on some new thread (Jealous of Your Contentment, I think?), but she actually pinged me a reply on way back on the March date of that article, if you’re curious.

        But no, you don’t need another narcissist! Maybe a good guy friend or two, but I say new hobbies instead, lol … I think you need more of you, in that you need to start feeling good about who you are.

        Yes, that’s what I say. More you, less men. XO!

      10. Ah, but Gabs, you are forgetting they lie like they breathe. What he says is not what he really thinks. Maybe that’s why he keeps you confused so much. You’re trying to make since of what he says and does, not remembering that you can never trust either one as truthful.

      11. Windstorm….continuing my thought on “not as smart as you think I am…” … One time he told me “I sometimes forget how smart you are!” Gee, how nice. I am smart yet you forget. LOL.

      12. FOTS
        “I sometimes forget how smart you are!”

        Well that was a backhanded complement. I’d have probably said something like, “Really? Dangerous thing to forget.” That would make my Pretzel laugh, but might spook your Piano Man.

      13. I will save it for next time. I think my sarcastic reply at the time to that was “Ummm….okay, well I am glad you did not actually forget!”

        Of course I had no idea at the time it was backhanded.

      14. FOTS
        “Of course I had no idea at the time it was backhanded.”

        I have a hard time understanding this. That comment from a cerebral narc seems so obviously backhanded to me. I automatically distrust everything narcs say to me and screen it for possible sarcasm and double meaning. Maybe somewhat paranoid, but safest with narcs.

      15. Windstorm,
        Of course he never forgets. Only when he pretends to. Also he always means what he says. Until he doesn’t.

        Like the time he told me to call him and then he forgot I was going to call and never answered the phone.

        And yeah I should have known it was backhanded. I would say “now I know for next time” but I have not heard much lately in the way of backhanded comments.

  5. HG – you acknowledge your abuse. That’s a positive and revealing step. Well done.
    Now to unravel the what and the why. Are you scared Or do you just relish the control of not going any further?

    1. Such an intriguing comment Em! I do not wish that to come across as patronising (though it may) or derogatory. Far from it. It’s a natural, E reaction to, let’s face it, pretty extreme stuff. But, again at the risk being patronising, it’s emotional thinking. Without wishing also to put words into HG’s mouth; this is how I perceive it.

      1 – HG is not mentally ill
      2 – HG is not acknowledging his abuse. He is documenting it. There is a difference
      3 – He is not scared in the common sense meaning of the word
      4 – He is absolutely capable of taking it beyond any of us could wildly imagine, if he so chose
      5 – The Good Drs pose a problem in so much as they are not truly empathic.(i.e. posses affective empathy) One or both of them believe it to be so, though. This slants the bias in questions and possibly puts him on edge. It’s either that or he detests them for their mediocre/middling of the road questions which seem to be ultra repetitive in nature.

      Look. If you are to read the interactions between them and him and if HG is to be believed and is writing verbatim, then to my mind, they both come across as a set of idiots.

      The female is cunning though. She senses rather than sees the Matralinial issue here. She prods at this, worrying like a terrier at a bone. Looking for the ER which, HG, occasionally gives.

      However, ‘worrying at a bone’ is not really a very classy way of doing it.

      It’s all pretty hopeless and simultaneously pretty funny. HG has expressed many times that he as no wish to be cured. The Drs will chip, chip away at this until they think (they hope) they get the Damascene moment where they have their breakthrough. Academic papers will be written, flowers thrown, champagne corks popped. Babies named ‘Tudor’ will be baptised. etc….

      It will never happen,

      The fact that neither of them can see it suggests an extremely narrow thinking and results’ orientated goals on their parts. It’s either that or a great love of the folding stuff.

      Possibly both.

      My advice? Enjoy what is being freely given and take from that which you will.

      1. Ahh now, I didn’t know that as fact. it was just a speculation on my part. Cheers Twilight!

      2. Hi Renard,
        “Academic papers will be written, flowers thrown, champagne corks popped.”
        I agree. From what I have read until now, it seems to me that at least one of the good doctors, if not both of them, is more interested in his/her own academic/professional success than in helping HG.

      3. Looks like I have! I dunno. I have a problem with so-called professionals who are in it for the cash.
        Actually, in this case, the bigger picture is the inception of this blog and of course the books. So I’m grateful for that alone.

  6. So, your mother is the wicked witch of the East. Mine too. (We could compare notes here if you wish, my mother slept with my boyfriend while I was pregnant with his child…sound like your Mum?) But we took such different paths….I avoid confrontation and couldn’t hurt anyone…. you choose to continue the abuse to everyone you are intimate with. You may deny your accountability to your good Doctor….you can live in denial to all of your internet followers, but Karma will have her way with you. You are not immune. Are you ready for that Mr. Tudor? My brother just passed away. We had his memorial service last weekend. He was visited by the spirits of all of the people that he ever harmed – he was heard begging for their forgiveness. My mother, the super narc, is being hammered by Karma right now. Her entire life she has been a beautiful woman…she now looks like Sheamgal (Lord of the Rings). And has just buried her second child. Karma will know where to hurt you….you will have to face that which you avoid….eventually. You don’t get points for having interment followers that provide you with fuel. You can handle it on your own terms, or karma will have her way. I know it. You know it.

      1. This won’t be popular but I’m being honest.

        I dont believe in Karma. I’ve said it before – that seems like a catch-all for hoping someone is addressed in another time or life for things that you feel are beyond your control or have no inclination to do anything about now or in this life. It even seems dangerous to believe in it in a way, in that you can turn your back on the behaviours and not address them because something (Karma) will “get” them for you later. In my view, it allows bad things to continue while you turn away and absolve yourself from any action, and is in that sense cowardly.

      2. NarcAngel
        I understand your views on Karma. Of course no one here in Kentucky ever mentions Karma because it’s “heathen.” The only time I’ve ever heard it used like you’re talking about is here on the blog. I’ve only ever read karma discussed in relation to the self – not like a curse on others.

        I have a great dread that Karma is real because I fear negative karma I’ve amassed and not burned thru in this life. lol! I sure hope I’m not building up a big pile of negative karma that I’ll have to slog thru in my next life! My personal thought is that if we really believe in Karma, we should be focused on our own.

      3. Windstorm
        Good morning!
        Haha. Rest easy – nothing is coming for you. If Karma DID exist wouldn’t will all be getting a visit for wishing it on others?

      4. NarcAngel
        Good morning to you as well! Yes, we would be building up our own bad Karma from wishing it on others. All the more reason to only be thinking about cleaning up our own Karma!

        It’s a sneaky thing, Karma. If the reincarnation people are right (and I pray they are NOT), we may not get hit by the negative Karma we’ve generated now until our next lifetime. It’s accumulated Karma that keeps us tied to the cycle of death and rebirth. That’s why I want to burn mine up now before I die. The last thing I want is to have to go thru life all over again! I’ve had enough, thank you very much! 😝

      5. Mercy
        Part of it, I’m sure. But now I’ve got the bad Karma from killing the snake!

        I’m still hoping to burn up all my bad Karma before I die, but odds aren’t good. But then, hope springs eternal! 😄

      6. Windstorm I have this mental image of you as a mystical hero fighting to save the world from karma. Next you’ll be slaying dragons (although you’ll feel horrible about killing the dragon). The final epic battle will be Windstorm vs Karma. My money is on the hero. 

      7. Narc Angel

        I don’t believe in Karma either, to me it is nothing but the outcome of choices one has made through out ones life. An Empath can even be left alone at the end of their life because they were afraid to venture out from within the walls they put up and chose not to socialize just as one of HGs kind can end up alone due to the choice of being mean tempered towards everyone.
        The effects of how one sees and feels innerwardly and outwardly.

      8. NA, I see karma a different way. For myself it’s just lable for lack of better words. If you treat people badly, abuse, destroy and surround yourself with destruction you will live a miserable life…Karma. We create our own karma. If I say that karma will take care of my ex Narc, it is not that I believe that a force of nature will give him what he deserves. Its that I believe that his actions will create his own misery. Also, turning my back to let karma take care of him is not me turning my back on the situation at hand. It’s simply that I can not help him or change him so I must help myself. Create my own karma. 

      9. And just to clarify, I do not see the death of 2 children, as in Margaret’s mother’s situation, as Karma. I see that as an unfortunate tragedy and to say that some unknown force created these deaths as a payback for her mother’s actions is a little twisted.

      10. I can’t believe how much the karma concept is separated worldwide. And each society call it differently.

        I just done a tiny research, and I didn’t find any scientific resource that prove it. It is just a philosophy.

        However, I do believe that God want us to be good. And he rewards the good in this life and the afterlife.

    1. Margaret
      Is it your belief that Karma is now serving your Supernarc mother with aging badly due to the grief of losing two of her children? My understanding is that they would only be annoyed at losing an appliance (as children are considered as such, and merely a source of fuel). Not grief as experienced by others.

      1. I think karma may be a concept adopted by some to comfort themselves. And adopted by societies to pacify human interactions.

    2. Margaret Robertson
      You didn’t choose to have empathy or be an empath; it was hardwired into you with a combination of environmental factors and genetics when you were a young child.

      HG didn’t choose to be a narcissist; he was hardwired to be one due to a combination of environmental factors and genetics when he was a child.

      Narcissists and empaths are exactly alike; the only difference: we have empathy and a true self and they don’t.

      Our paths were chosen for us.

      1. K, Free will. HG knows what he’s doing is wrong, it’s just that he can’t bring himself to face his fears inside. He’d rather hurt other people than hurt himself. Empaths have the same gene pool and environment, we choose right or wrong, truth or deceit.

      2. Children decide whether to manipulate to get their own way or to understand and respect the rules.

      3. kelfairly
        Wrong. I have been following ten narcissistic children for three years and they are hardwired to be manipulative and anti-social because they need fuel and they are behaving exactly as they should. That is their normal and they are completely unaware of it.

        Disorders are not a mental illness, a phase or temporary state that can be altered; they are permanent and woven throughout an individuals personality.

      4. NPD didn’t use to be, but is now recognized by the American Psychiatric Association as a form of mental illness.

      5. kelfairly
        Could you please post the link to the APA stating that personality disorders are now classified as mental illness. Thank you.

      6. K
        What I meant about having a choice is when the child first becomes a narcissist. HG said if he could go back he would avoid the abuse that happened that November day, which would have possibly resulted in him not being narcissistic. Whether you become a narcissist automatically with an abuse or you choose it as a coping mechanism may be up for debate (not with me please), but from what I’ve read, it’s a choice.

        What I meant about HG having a choice now is that he knows intellectually the harm he causes others, and writes how sick and twisted it is, he also writes about the creature that torments him. He is seriously doing more than anyone to expose narcissism, explain why we’re victims, and spread it to everyone, but he still chooses to treat therapy as a game. He believes in the benefits of narcissism and doesn’t want to lose the drive he has, the lack of emotional holdback, and would rather keep his demons than face them.

        I know you’ve been on this site from its beginning, but this is how I feel.

      7. kelfairly
        I understand how you feel, however, if you look at it logically, when did you choose to become an empath? Age 4, 8 or 15?

        My twin didn’t choose to be a narcissist, that was done to him. At no point did he declare: I am choosing to be a narcissist. His narcissism presented at age five.

        Until I found narcsite, I had no idea that I was an empath and I never heard of the term and I never chose to be one. I was wired to be one and it controls me; I do NOT control my empathy.

        Lori cannot stop being a co-dependent.
        Tigerchelle cannot stop being a BPD.
        A psychopath cannot stop being a psychopath.
        And all the empaths on narcsite cannot stop being empaths.

        Why? Because we were ALL programmed/hardwired to be whatever it is that we are and we cannot change that.

        I cannot remove my empathy. And HG cannot remove his narcissism.

      8. This is not a combative question, just seeking to understand. If you were involved romantically with a narcissist would you believe with enough understanding of themselves that they would make the choice to change? Would the realization of the error of their ways cause them to make a different “choice” in regards to relational destruction? Do you believe that enough voluntary therapy can help them make the choice to become empathic?

      9. 12345, Regarding your thoughts on a narcissist changing himself or a cure; I think a lot of progress is being made recently on narcissism, especially as the number of narcissists increases in the world.MRI scans reveal a lack of gray cells in the empathic area of the brain of narcissists, and I do believe they will develop something medically other than just therapy. I attached links to websites to this chain, but it’s still in moderation. Narcissism is too damaging to be an acceptable thing, there needs to be something done about it. I do not think a narcissist has the insight or point of view to change on his own.

      10. K, How interesting that you have a twin that’s a narcissist! I started to google that once. It would be neat to hear about that.

    3. Personally, I don’t think losing a child is a punishment by karma for a narcissist. I am sure my mother would not be really sad if I died tomorrow. I think she would feel a mix of relief and power because she outlived me. She would like it deep inside but would just pretend to be sad.
      I really do not see any sign of karma working in her life.

    4. Margaret

      Thank you for your post, it’s interesting because maybe karma explains the same about my mother. I didn’t see her cry about my brother, but I live out of state, but his death was very hard on her, she couldn’t stop talking about it for the longest time and was definitely in remorse. She was beautiful and sexy too, now she’s has a spot on her face where skin cancer was removed, and she is bowed with osteoporosis. She’s lost control of so many things, but she keeps her facade. I’ve always thought it’s a great injustice to see this beautiful woman end up this way, it’s just not right. Your idea of karma actually sheds a new light to it.

      HG is a narcissist, he’s in constant denial, and it doesn’t help when his fans agree with everything he does.

      1. It could be said that empaths spend a fair bit of time in denial also. That is a large part in why the narc/empath dance is able to endure. In some cases for lengthy periods. Being able to see both sides does not make one a fan. It makes them just that – able to see.

      2. In utter and total agreement NA. I have this friend, a GEN who is very open about how he operates. What he says to me is that once you become aware of who you are then you become fully accountable for your actions. This goes for the Ns and the Es alike.

        In fact, you could go further and the Es constantly moaning that they are being targeted does not suit their own purpose in the long run. At some point we have to stand up and take responsibility for our actions. If not just so that we can effectively heal.

        There will be many, as I’m sure you have gathered, that will read these comments and go, why are all of these women having a ‘fangirl moment’ over HG? Yes, it is true that it could be perceived we have ‘got into bed’ with the enemy. That cannot be denied.

        I personally do not see it in quite that way. I see it as a truce. A temporary break in hostilities. A football game at Christmas for example. At some point, we will go back to our trenches and shell the fuck out of each other.

        But until then, I am determined to learn all I can.

        Always wise words NA.

      3. Kelly
        Is your mother a narcissist? Because, if she is, then she can’t feel remorse, regret or sadness. Her grief is manipulation, a classic pity play, and she uses it to get fuel.

        The cancer, loss of looks and osteoporosis are the natural effects of aging, not karma.

        HG knows exactly what he is and he is not in constant denial. Before I came to narcsite, I never believed in Karma and I still don’t.

      4. K, I think you’re upset because I questioned or had a different opinion with you above. Yes, my mother is a narc. Use whatever word for remorse. She lost a companion and negative fuel- that’s too ugly for me, as I love them both despite what they are. My brother looked after me like HG with his brother, I gave back with my adoration. I’ve never bothered with karma, but it is an interesting light to shine on my mother’s situation, whether you agree or not. Margaret should be allowed to believe and express her observations about karma, without having the whole site not support her. I’m open to her idea, and can see it as a possibility.

      5. Kelfairly

        Margaret is absolutely entitled to share her views on Karma as are you and everyone else who put theirs forth. Isn’t that part of the purpose of the blog? to share different views and not necessarily adapt to majority rules or whomever gets theirs in first? I can (and do) respect Margarets right to opinion (and yours, to extract something from it in her sharing of it). Is that how you see it? That giving a differing opinion is somehow taking away anothers?

      6. kelfairly
        Just to be clear, are you also Kelly?

        I am not upset. Margaret made a comment about how HG “chooses” to continue to abuse the people he is intimate with.

        He did not choose to be a narcissist that was done to him. Borderlines, histrionics and anti-socials do NOT choose to be disordered.

        Again, loss of looks, cancer and osteoporosis are all the effects of aging and have nothing to do with karma.

        Other people, whether you agree or not, are just sharing their views on karma as well and they, too, should be supported and allowed to express their observations without being referred to as “fans”. There is no reason for your defensiveness. It is just two different perspectives.

      7. Kelly, the whole site isn’t against Margaret’s observation. It a couple of readers expressing their opinion on an interesting topic. The debate is constructive not hostile.

      8. Actually you’re flat out stating karma doesn’t exist, how do you know this? Because that’s what HG said, answering how a narcissist thinks? I’m willing to consider it as a possibility because it speaks to me for something I’ve wondered regarding my mother. Of course I realize science and medical ailments and life happen.

      9. Yes, I’m Kelly. WordPress said someone already had that name so I had to use another.

      10. Kelly

        It’s probably you – the Kelly already on WP. I went thru about a year of having to be “Windstorm2” because WP said there already was a “Windstorm” even though I was that other Windstorm. Then when I came back after being away a few months, “violà!” I could be plain old Windstorm again.

        WP is just quirky. I guess we should be glad it hasn’t crashed.

      11. Mercy

        I do like your comment regarding Margaret’s post. I’ve never thought about karma, but it did light a bulb to answer something I was wondering. Not regarding my brothers death as karma, that was just something that had also happened with us. I agree with you that if there is karma, then it’s something we’ve brought on ourselves. Negativity can cause medical issues, (as can being a narcissists victim). Strangest thing about her skin cancer is she always wore a sun bonnet, and kept her face covered to keep the sun from wrinkling her, so I don’t know how it ever touched her face.

        I don’t mind in the least constructive differences. It’s just sometimes when HG says something as he did on this one, from a narcissists view, that other people jump on his bandwagon. I have great respect for HG and his opinions, but I’m not a yes man. I just don’t like seeing someone post something, and it becoming a ganged up-on negativity. I’m sure I asked for my gang up, but it’s because I was making a point, maybe to be sensitive to posts people put out and to be open minded.

      12. Kelfairly, I believe the term Karma, used as it’s true meaning, is a religious term referencing a person’s fate in future lives due to previous actions. This not my religious belief so therefore I can state without a doubt that I do not believe in karma. Others have adopted this term, as I have, meaning “the consequences of ones actions”. Even though I don’t believe in karma I do find it ironic about your mother’s skin cancer. In that case id say karma’s a bitch haha.

        I tend to disagree with the point you make about ganging up. First, Karma is a religious term and many will have solid views on the subject without HGs influence. Second those that have commented are intelligent enough to have their own thoughts without having to jump on the bandwagon.

        A subject that is based on religion is going to get many view points but I’m glad you have found another way to look at your situation with you mother and brothers death. That is what I love about this site. Not only do I learn from the teacher but I learn from the readers as well. I’m always finding different ways to look at a situation when I can’t seem to work past something.

      13. I didn’t really hear anything about religion in the posts, and I thought the original karma comment was based on the modern definition of it as reaping the bad that you sow. I felt bad someone had posted a thought, that got stomped on is all. I won’t in the future.

  7. Maybe you will cry ? And you want to avoid showing that emotion with the doctors . The good doctors have empathic skills to ask deep introspective questions ….you don’t want to cry in front of them ?

      1. That’s the same with my husband. That makes me real mad at his mom and dad . He says he older sisters did too .

      2. His mother was overly sexual …with him also . I don’t mean she raped him but she would comment in front of me about what a nice ass her son had ! He told me he was afraid she wanted him to sleep with her ….but then later he changed that comment to …more neutral comment whenever I would bring up topic.

      3. When I visit Narc Vegas, I am not allowed to cry because it is against the rules.

        I can only cry when I am in empath world.

        That is what I learned to do as a very young child. Crying is too dangerous.

      4. K,

        “Crying is too dangerous.”

        I’m sorry, K. No child should feel like it is dangerous to cry.

        I don’t recall feeling that way as a child…Fast forward to my last relationship – I also don’t remember my ex’s exact words (and I’m glad that I have forgotten)- but I do recall being made to feel weak if I cried around him. I attributed that to his cultural background and that men often are taught it is weak to cry.
        I would fight the lump in my throat, because I hated to feel weak, but I couldn’t control the tears that would well up in my eyes…I remember working very hard to stare upward at the sky so the tears would slowly evaporate before they even fell down my face…it didn’t solve anything anyway. I would wait and cry alone or at night.

        Towards the end, I recall with extreme clarity the day he turned to me and said: “You don’t cry anymore.” I turned and walked away. He was right.

      5. Thank you for your kind words WhoCares
        That was all instinct and then I learned to hide from my parents so they couldn’t hurt me like they hurt my other siblings.

        Crying is a sign of weakness in their world and it is too dangerous to show that emotion and, when they see it, they zero in on it and learn how to use it to their advantage. And you learned how to hide it, too, by crying alone or at night. That is a protective instinct.

        And he noticed that you stopped crying and he even told you (they watch your every move) and that was instinctive on his part.

        I am glad that you walked away, that was self-preservation.

      6. Yes, K – thank-you for elaborating on what crying meant in your world. You are absolutely right;

      7. Crying is healing. Npd is so messed up. I cant imagine witholding emotion like that. I have become apathetic in certain situations in regards to my mother. I guess it becomes a coping mechanism to a narcissist altho an extreme one. I think no crying is a result of deep compartmentalization. Again an engrained survival mechanism.
        I compartmentalize a lot but i find if i start thinking a lot about certain things in my life it can tap into deep hurt and i will feel like crying. For the most part i keep those tucked away. I try to focus on the things that make me happy and in return healthy.

      8. Thats so wrong your mother slapped you HG. We havent even spanked our children. Its physical abuse. Theres something about slapping a child that is so deeply demeaning psychologically. It creates terrible shame and takes away self worth. Shame on your mother!

  8. HG,

    ‘I would avoid the abuse I suffered.’
    I would have wanted this too, if there is a choice.

    When it is the adult abuser that is in power, the abuse is inescapable.
    You can only defend yourself as best you can.
    Thus we become what we are now………….

    1. i may be running against the popular opinion here. Whilst I would not say that I wanted the abuse that was meted out to me as a child, i simply would NOT be the person I am now. I would be a less well rounded, more shallow, not seeing the bigger picture, kind of person. Certainly less effective as a mother myself.

      As karma is being thrown into the mix, I will throw in the concept of the ‘wounded healer’.

      These are my wounds. I seek to heal them. If others can gain some benefit, then so be it.

      Yes, I absolutely believe in karma even if not in a ‘woo way’ Treat enough people badly and eventually they will turn their backs. Cause and effect. PN is reaping the results of his behaviour. Little PA MN will be able to cling on in there longer. But she too; will tumble. Given enough time.

      I used to be so scared of her when very little. She used to wind herself up into such a ‘fugue’ state that she used to bark like a dog. I kid you not.

  9. I cannot even imagine having a mother who doesn’t love her child. Despite the lack of nurturing love from the only human you should have received it, it didn’t keep you from becoming the man who saves so many lives with your creativity, and information that no one else could provide. And many try.
    The knowledge I’ve received from your mighty effort has healed me.
    So if I never said it, here’s my thank you..

  10. HG
    My heart breaks for you. Your life would be incredibly different if you had not suffered abuse from Matrinarc.

  11. HG,

    What would be your mother’s reaction if she read your blog? And especially the things that you wrote about her?

    If she already did, how did she react?

    1. She hasn’t.

      It would ignite her fury, naturally and she would respond through denial as her first line of defence and then apply alternative manipulations to remove any accountability and attempt to draw fuel to address the wounding that has been caused.

      1. I don’t know what to say. May God reward your patience on your mother.

        Didn’t want to mention that, but usually men cling to their mothers. Until an old age. I have my brother who is a narcissist, until now he fights for my mother’s attention and affection (He is married, thou). And he gets jealous if her attention shifted to someone else.

        HG. You have awareness, intelligence, respect and place in people’s heart; instead. And am sure that there is more and more in you.

      2. HG, I thought your mother did read your blog and even commented sometimes. It was then not her after all?

      3. So she doesn’t know you have a blog? Hmmm. I totally misunderstood then. I thought she knew about it.

      4. “HG was always a problem child. Naturally precocious. Astonishing intellectual capability. He could read by the age of three. Many a time we tried to ‘reign him in’ but there was no reasoning.with him. What HG wanted, HG got.

        He was a bright lad at school but intellectually lazy. He could have excelled in many fields if he had applied himself. Unfortunately, he didn’t. He then turned this around on us – much to my husband and I’s great, great pity. I cannot begin to speak of how he hurt us both through the years.

        We have supported him endlessly. We love him both very much indeed and always will.

        We both want him to get better. To this end we are willing to do whatever it takes.”

        How close did I get?

  12. How do narcs, in general, feel about their mothers? ESP if the mother was a narc? And if they don’t feel anything good, why are they nice to her? At least the one I married. Seemed her hated her deep down yet didn’t exactly stand up to her either. It’s odd really.

    Did you have a relationship with your mother in your adult life HG?

    1. Narcissists view them as appliances, same as anybody else in the fuel matrix and therefore they are treated in accordance with what we need, thus if the facade requires harmonious relationships between narcissist son and mother then this will largely occur.

      I have as little to do with her as possible.

  13. Hi HG, well I have figured out after all this time that I was “raised” by a matrinarc.Also a lower midranger for a “father”. It was with great interest I clicked on this. It has finally come to a sad realization of what has to happen. Your writings are spot on and were a huge help.Sickening and liberating at the same time. I wish you the best on this one, been there.

  14. I relate. I was happy when I turned 18 and moved out. I started making a decent living at 19, where I could even help my siblings out. I found it so odd that people are obsessed with asking questions like, “where did you grow up?” “What highschool did you attend?” All the way up until i turned 30. I didnt want to talk about all of that. Ask me anything else, like where I went to college, what career I have, where is my favorite restaurant, etc. Please don’t ask about the years when my parents dictated my life and made aweful decisions

    1. Hi HG, anything we do in a session is for ourselves. Not for the Dr. you are the only one playing … not the Dr. she tries to help you find ways to communicate with your inner you. The shrinks are all replaceable. We need the best diplomats to come into contact with our core. Once found though it doesn’t mean it has to change rather than to acknowledge and to accept. sometimes accepting the truth accepting who you truly are already levels down the fury and the insecurity because a more adult version of you comes and see your younger self. It needs to see how strong you are now and how much more you are able to protect yourself. Nothing can harm you anymore. YOU are master of your destiny. And YOU have the choice. Or ruin the rest of your days here on earth addicted to the control what is a false control because nothing can’t be control for ever or liberate yourself from this monster that holds you down for eternity. At the end YOU are the only one who is controlled by your fear and anger/devastation. Choose! Lay down so vultures of the past will continue to pick you soul out or stand up and say fuck you i don’t have the luxury to be traumatized I only have one life and I want to live it fully. You are smart enough to understand that what you lived through is NOT Reality for most of us. Good luck!

  15. Dear Mr Tudor,
    Do you have anything to do with your mother at all …ie speak to, see, family gatherings, special occasions, funerals, weddings, or is it purely strictly legal and medical?
    Thank you
    Luv Bubbles xx

  16. Sadness, anger, frustration. Why do people expect a child to understand adult emotions (not all adults are created equal)? Why do some people get annoyed when an infant cries?; this is their only way of communicating something is wrong (ill, pain, wind, hunger, thirst, too hot or cold, wet, lonely, etc). For a young mind to try and navigate a dysfunctional home, to make sense of events, own feelings and relationships, and survive To watch every nuance for clues on how to act or respond, only for the nuances to be contradictory. Do as I say, not as I act. Do as I say and act, but tell no one. Now I see you, now I don’t. One facade after another. The ground constantly shifting. Eagerness to please to maintain some semblance of status quo, or anger and shame at oneself for getting things ‘wrong’. Aiming for perfection only to fail. Looking for love, loyalty and a haven of peace, safety and understanding; constantly pushing and punishing others’ boundaries to test their validity and steadfastness, but resolutely rejecting them when they ‘fail’. The child is not at fault, but how does that child arrive at adulthood with their own sense of self and emotional integrity, and not with the shattered multifaceted illusions of mirroring behaviour shown in childhood? Do you become a hypervigilant codependent people pleasing empath, or a hypervigilant mirroring angry narcissist? Does the empath survive by taking an unchallenging route, and the narcissist a challenging one? Empath = do no harm. Narcissist = destroy. If an empath can recover and rebalance their emotional boundaries, can a narcissist also recover? Are empaths and narcissists two sides of the same coin? Wishing everyone a good outcome xxx.

  17. She asked if there was anybody in your immediate family you would like to discuss with her and you said No. She asked why and you did not want to answer that question. She insisted you should talk about a family member and then again (!) she insisted you should talk about your mother.

    IMO, she does not seem to care about your boundaries.

    1. She is doing her job.
      Her job is to get inside where the pain is.
      Without that, he won’t get better. The infection. He is infected.
      What he is doing by getting up and leaving is avoiding the pain. He is showing how painful it is. He is not playing that damn game. But the doc won’t give up. She can’t give up. If she does, then she fails. If she fails, HG fails. And if HG fails, then his mother wins, again.

  18. I’m sorry HG, I can’t go there either. I read a book and it said to respond to these things in the third person. It was helpful for me to remove myself (abet still painful) in this way. Take care.

    1. I also didn’t want to go there.

      I am a daughter, scapegoat, of 2 narcs, a lesser (father) and a mid-range (mother). 15 years ago I went no contact. I knew I needed to do that just to survive. I also broke contact with the rest of the family.

      During therapy I didn’t want to speak about my family. Just about my present issues. After 3 years and lot of thrust in my therapists, during an experiential of BODY-psychology I released long held trauma shaking the body. Immediately after that I started to speak non stop about my family and all that had happened. That was a breaking point in my life.

      Now HG has given me a deeper understanding, the truth that my mother never say. And the sad realization that they never saw me as a person, never being loved.

      Thank you so much.

      I realize how I was conditioned to find again and again narcs in my life through partners, colleagues, neighbors… I kept repeating the past while not wanting to see it.

      It was not easy going there.

      And when ready it is really worth trying going there, with a trusted person, a loving presence, a witness. To show them what has happened. To hear that that was not ok. Life if bigger that our first imprint.

  19. This article reminds me so much about the session I had with my therapist two weeks ago.
    She is trying to access and heal my inner child.
    She was asking me about my needs and what is most important to me.
    ‘To feel safe ‘ I replied.
    She then wanted to know about the events when I did not feel safe.
    By using some techniques I am not familiar with ( visualization?) she put me in some kind of state of hypnosis and took me back when I could see myself as a child.
    I just followed her instructions and I wasn’t prepared for that…. And I always have to be prepared because it gives me a sense of control.
    She asked me to describe where I am , what am I wearing, how do I look… etc. She wanted me to talk to my younger self , promise to protect her ask her to give me a hand and take her to a safer place ( this is so fucked up ).
    When she finally let me slowly open my eyes the tears were running down my face.
    ‘ What did she say when you ask her to follow you? Was she happy?’
    ‘ No , she was very hesitant. She wanted to but she wasn’t sure if she can trust me’ i replied.
    ‘ This little girl is still trapped inside you and she doesn’t feel safe. You will rescue her.She needs your love , care and compassion to make peace with the past ‘ my therapist said.

    The whole exercise was so instense and horrifying…It brought all trauma, fear and some repressed memories back. I don’t even remember how I got home afterwards.

    I said to her I will not do this again.

    1. Sorry to hear that it was so difficult for you. I would encourage you to realise that what came up in that session was what had been stored deep deep inside of you in your subconscious mind for so long affecting you all that time since it happened. It may take a while to settle with the released memories but a good therapist should advise you and help you also deal with the feelings that arose as a result of this session. As humans we are unique in having the ability to have thoughts about our thoughts and feelings about feelings… so if there is a lot in you happening after that session please consider getting more help to settle it all… releasing trauma is a process but one that leads to many improvements in life and now you understand a bit more about yourself you are in control when you decide you are ready for more liberation as when led properly this kind of work allows dropping all that piled up stuff. Perhaps you may want to find a therapist who works also with techniques that do not involve direct regression (that’s the technique you described) and just work with feeling states to release from the subconscious to make it easier for you. Some of this stuff you can learn and start taking control when to use them on your own. Good luck.

    2. Abrokenwing
      How overwhelming for you.
      How painful.
      Little wonder you can’t remember how you got home.
      Thanks for sharing your experience with us. Feeling safe is an ongoing theme of my life.

    3. Abrokenwing – to feel safe was all I ever asked of my greater narc. He put me in a very small box and played on that insecurity as a major part of his control of me. Triangulation, lies, snide remarks. I see it all now.

    4. abrokenwing,

      I really feel for you. I had (to endure) those sessions, too, and whereas I clearly enjoyed the more analytical part of the sessions where I was given opportunity to share my own thoughts and conclusions and relate to the counsellor’s instructions and Information provided, I felt extremely uncomfortable and unsettled to the point of panic when my therapist used a similar technique where she wanted me to visualize and guide ‘my inner child’ and find a safe haven for her. As your experience seems similar, I can relate to what you have written. I felt completely out of control which I normally avoid at all costs and was close to a severe panic attack when we were in the midst of the session.

      We had to end this session as I did not want to follow through with the task. As weird as it may sound, I had to resist the impulse to laugh when she started to ask me what I, the adult, would tell my inner child though I know and understand why she found it important and did not want to ridicule her expertise, but getting to the core of the traumatic experience seems to be too much and too painful and I am not sure whether I want to release what has been bottled up for so long.


    5. Oh lordy lordy – where does one begin?

      Firstly [hugs]. Utterly unprofessional of that so called ‘therapist’ to do this to you without first COMPLETELY underlying what the process entailed and then seeking your positive, unqualified, consent as well outlining any side effects of the process. Utterly wrong and utterly unprofessional.

      One of the matters that I have never seen HG address (although he may have done and I simply haven’t accessed it) is a very very special superpower some of the Es have. It is the ability to access ‘altered states’.without taking an external drug. It’s usually NOT alcohol which acts as a depressant. It can be through narcotics. There are other ways which I’m not going to go into here. Hypnosis is one of those ways though.

      This part

      This little girl is still trapped inside you and she doesn’t feel safe. You will rescue her.She needs your love , care and compassion to make peace with the past ‘ my therapist said.

      Was very probably true but she transgressed so far on your own boundaries. it is ghastly. Setting back the own work you needed to do. I do hope you are feeling better?

      Do you have RL suipport?

  20. HG, if you could go back in time when you were little, knowing what you know now, what would you change? And would you choose not to be a narcissist?

      1. Hmmm… and *if* you believe avoiding abuse would mean you wouldn’t evolve into a narcissist… this seems the most significant answer you’ve ever given. I’d go one step more, but best not.

      2. I take his answer to mean if he was able to avoid the abuse, he wouldn’t be fragmented and could see what Little HG could have become if properly nurtured and encouraged. He would feel whole rather than feeling there is a creature full of fury at his core driving his every move.

      3. Childhood trauma certainly is a key ingredient in the making of many a disordered individual.

      4. HG
        In what meaningful and specific ways do you think your life would be different today had you not suffered her abuse?

      5. There is a distinct possibility I would not be what I am and that would have both positive and negative effects.

      6. HG
        If you could go back, what steps would you take to avoid the abuse? Would you tell someone? Adopt her behaviours and manipulations earlier to counter hers? What do you feel could be changed?

      7. I thought you were referring to the episode where Matrinarc left you outside the house in the cold and wouldn’t let you in until you learned a poem by heart. But I am not sure you had snow already in November.
        Where you referring to this HG?

        I should stay at home this coming November but it seems I will have to deal with my narc relatives 😒

      8. We all would do that eh? From time before time, would be so sweet to grow and evolve, unfettered by the malicious violence we all are wounded deeply and profoundly by. Important question: Would you go back and unabuse the extensive abuses you have acted out on others to suffer at your very hands, mind, soul, and heart?

  21. FEAR. It’s the root of them all. Fear of that black hole, fear that what your mother said and did to you was justified. The strongest one isn’t the one in control (because control is an illusion.) And let’s face it, narcs are not strong. That’s why they do what they do. I challenge you to venture where no narc has gone before.

  22. Would it be much easier for you to answer that if someone other than a qualified doctor asked you it? That question seems to put a great deal of control in your lap, so you could do anything with it, so I wonder why you didn’t look at it like a challenge you could flick away.

      1. Tx, Mercy… you’re right~I sometimes forget that part. Heck, they can even refuse to answer everyday, friendly questions just because of the “how-dare-you-hold-me-to-account” thing, and that one actually makes me laugh (“What’d you have for lunch?” is, apparently, a matter of national security).

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