Shoot You Down

SHOOT YOU

A plaintive wail which I often hear is along the lines of,

“Why do you always have to shoot me down? I give you everything you could ever want. Why can’t you just be happy with that?”

As usual you delude yourself with such a statement. You do not give me everything I could ever want. You think that you do, but that is the self-centredness that you often exhibit creeping in once again. You certainly care, I will grant you that, but you make the mistake of assuming what you do is what we want. What we want is fuel. I know what comes next.

“I always told you how much I loved you, I admired and complimented you often and frequently. How much more could I make you feel good about yourself?”

Therein lies the problem. No matter how good your intentions and how frequent your worship of me, my kind and me will always grow tired of it. We have heard your kind words and seen your appreciative gestures too many times and it, well, it just does not do it for us anymore. I am sure that you emotionally in touch people would be the first to complain if a long established partner engages in the same routine in the bedroom. It does not hit the spot anymore does it? Well, it is just the same for us. You may ultimately accept that things cool somewhat in the bedroom and I know from what I have seen and heard that you trade this passion off (although not always, there are some sexual thrill seekers amongst your kind) for other qualities that you find attractive – humour, companionship, security, warmth, good parental skills, intelligence and such like. There is no hope for any such trade with us. We only want one thing from our relationship. Fuel. We do not care (ultimately) how good-looking you are, how much of a whore you are between the sheets, how wonderful a mother you may be, what a raconteur you are or how much you earn. We will never accept those things or anything else as a substitute for fuel. True enough, the more aged of our kind sometimes accept these things when their need for fuel diminishes but that need never goes away. They may decide to accept these attributes alongside largely positive fuel, but they will still need to stir things up from time to time.

That is not going to happen with me. I am at the peak of my powers and therefore my need for fuel remains substantial. There can be no substitute for it at all and nor can there be any co-existence between the provision of fuel and other attributes. It is fuel or nothing. In order to achieve this I have to shoot you down because once that is done you start to flow with the potent negative fuel and my cravings start to be addressed. You can beg and plead with me, you can point out how you will always only ever have eyes for me, you can express your love, desire, adoration and admiration on an hourly basis but there comes a point when it just does not have that sweetness anymore. It is then that I pull the handgun from my jacket, attach the silencer and fire several vitriolic bullets into you. Your pain from these wounding bullets gives me the fuel that I need and therefore your shooting is necessary. Moreover, it is your punishment for letting me down. You really ought to be capable of pleasing me the whole time but so far, all that I have chosen have failed. That is why I now expect you to fail and have that gun to hand at all times.

When I shoot you down, I become more powerful as the fuel flows from you. Moreover, it is easy to get someone to admire and adore. Those reactions come naturally to your kind. It is far harder to extract tears, anger, frustration and regret from the empath. Managing to do so imbues your emotional reaction with greater potency, your fuel becomes supercharged and this is what we want. We cannot shoot you down from the beginning, we need you stood on a pedestal first, after all, you present as such an inviting target then and your toppling as the bullets slam into you becomes all the more satisfying.

I sense your dismay as you read this. You had hoped that by keeping me sweet and onside through a dazzling and tireless display of love, affection and admiration you had hoped to avoid such an attack. Your concerns should not be absolute. There is an upside you know. Firstly, when we find someone else after we have shot you down, keep in mind they will eventually be riddled with bullet holes no matter how happy we both appear at first. It is coming to them as it came to you. I am sure that makes you feel a little better doesn’t it? Secondly, there is a huge saving grace.

We never shoot you dead.

We need you alive so we can raise you up again as we re-load.

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290 thoughts on “Shoot You Down”

  1. Clarece,

    I cannot find the Reply Box to comment about your thoughts on meeting HG.

    I just wanted to say, “Oh, that’s cool.”

  2. Note: You can’t diagnose ASPD until 18 even though it could be pretty damn evident the individual is a budding sociopath or psychopath.

    Research talks about a trajectory….

    Oppositional Defiant Disorder (ODD)–> Conduct Disorder (CD) –> Antisocial Personality Disorder (ASPD) – and if you are extra special you are a psychopath lol so you get the psychopaths specifier.

    Not all people who have ODD progress to CD and not all people with CD progress to ASPD.

    So like…if the Conduct Disorder person has an early onset (which is before the age of 10) and has Callous and Unemotional Traits – those are the people you typically see progressing to Antisocial Personality Disorder.

  3. Just to clarify….yes, sociopathy and psychopathy are different even though people have a tendency to use them interchangeably.

    There is no diagnosis in the DSM for psychopathy.

    The DSM only has Antisocial Personality Disorder and there is a psychopathy SPECIFIER.

    HG is a narcissistic psychopath. There are different flavors of psychopaths. He clearly fits the criteria for ASPD and is psychopathic.

    Psychopaths are wired differently and there is an affective component missing. I could go into the research and neurobiology and all the differences between sociopathy and psychopathy but it would take a long time lol so unless asked I’m sticking to my short response.

    1. Just so that I do not get into trouble for my last comment, I just wanted to add that it is totally fine about the wiring issue because I think I was born with a few missing components, myself! So, I did not mean anything negative about you, HG! I mean…

      I mean, look how helpful you are to us all! In a sense, if you were not born with your mixed up wiring, then you would not be helping so many to learn about Narcissism! So, ya. That is great!

  4. Kathy,

    It sounds like you were with a narcissistic psychopath. What did you find out about the girl or girls pictures, diary entries…..and all that stuff in the box?

    Are they alive? Are they missing people?

    How did you meet this person? What does he do for a living? My mind is blown right now. I have so many questions. I’m about to read your posts more carefully now – I’ve been multitasking.

      1. Since you are “Emotion Detective”, you definitely should be wearing a gas mask due to all those toxic fumes escaping from all the B.S. that’s inside of you.

    1. Agreed, some definitely pack more of a punch than others, though lately there have been a number of brutal ones.

    2. Evoking Dahlias, this means that you have absolutely no nausea from reading any of this, whatsoever… eh, ED?

    1. Ha!

      I could never really care about such a thing myself. I consider myself a sub, just can’t really get all disappointed over a guy who doesn’t tell me something’s happening anyway. It’s the narc’s delusion that they’re the only hot mess on earth, not mine.

      1. Nunya,

        I keep thinking about that rubber doll called Stretch Armstrong. My nephew had one. You can stretch the arms and legs clear across the room, and it will still return to normal. It’s like a Tug-a-War toy, too. I was thinking of Stretch HG Tudor in a suit and tie, with patent leather shoes, and dress socks.

        Or, HG Paper Dolls! There would be many outfits in which to suit him, different shoes, various ties, and a multitude of masks, most especially.

        Or, a jigsaw puzzle that is impossible to put together, or one that is in the shape of a triangle.

        I mean no harm, HG, or anyone. I am simply playing and using my imagination. Please, take no offense.

        I am not sure what is okay, and what is not okay. I am socially inept. But, I like to share my ideas and thoughts. But, no harm intended.

      2. My point stands, bears the intended meaning to me, is not meant to insult anyone and belongs to myself. My general (most often, though including many exceptions) approach to men is as I stated, probably developed out of perceived necessity- so after becoming attached I care a great deal, prior to that…not so much. In other words I’m introverted in that way, I don’t pursue engagement beyond the initial effort. I certainly am not claiming invincibility, and I’ve indeed cried over mild slights from various personas in my lifetime, both male and female. Not sure why it requires nuanicing, it wasn’t that deep of a remark and I don’t frequently express a lack of humility, quite the opposite.
        I already explained in comments below that I think sexual attraction for any particular reason is normal and an odd thing to abuse, sort of like believing owning air makes one “popular”. I am also harboring some anger at narcissists, not hg, who i’ve no idea about. I don’t say attention and connection never means anything, it can mean a lot or I wouldn’t be here.
        I can view a person sexually without requiring a response. I only say so because it bothers me when people feel pain over things like that. I lean toward “let it go” where I can. Unless I’m about to get my period.
        Yeah?

      3. Oh god, dhq came into my email. Shut my face, was about the jigsaw puzzle. Was genuinely confused.

    2. Showed as response to my particular comment and I should know better than not to check.
      So nika, yeah social skills, this may explain my introversion.
      Anyway, was explaining my bent toward mediating and sometimes altruism I guess.
      Unless I’m about to get my period. Then it’s crying, anxiety or unadulterated rage.
      Not that anyone asked.

      : P

      1. It would be scary to see a Sociopath or Psychopath have PMS or PMDD. They would probably just go around eating people alive!

      2. Ha, nika, eating people alive. PMS psychopath, yikes! I wonder if there’s anything to that.

  5. Tigerchelle78

    It was a comment that was misleading, it also shows how one can twist truth. Seeing right from wrong is easy, discerning right from almost right can be tricky. Once emotion is triggered one can over look and miss seeing an “almost right” and see it as a right completely missing the part that actually made it into a lie.

    You stated
    “He probably had no thought at all to it.
He does not have feelings like ours.
But like I said, if there was any kind of worry, you can be sure HG would have taken care of it.
He is the teacher is he not?”

    I will repeat myself, the teacher is not here to tell one what to think, yet to teach one how to think in these situations.

    Henceforth why comments come through, only excessive ad hominem comments do not.

  6. Twilight,

    Thank you for helping me to understand the difference between Codependents and SE.

    I wonder, then, the reason why I’ve been ensnared by so many.

    I wonder about the Codependent who also happens to have BPD thrown into the mix. I would gather there to be a challenge, there, unlike a normal Codependent.

    I hope you receive this reply as this was the only place I could comment; maybe something to do with my application of WP.

    Thank you for your previous response.

    1. Nika-Survival

      I don’t know. They are on a spectrum just like all of us.

      I believe one needs to figure out what they want. If you want love, then you must love yourself till your cup runs over then you have more then enough for not just yourself yet another. Expecting it from another will never bring the love you desire, it will only keep your cup empty.

      I do hope you find your peace.

  7. Tigerchelle,

    PS:
    “Do you know, I don’t think anyone has ever asked me that in here.”

    I think people would do this more often, if not for the time it takes to attend to all the people here and all of their comments.
    My head just spins going through all the comments. It takes me a long time to read (also because my English is poor, or there is a difference in expression because of different countries/cultures.
    I often feel bad for the people I do not address or personal stories I can’t recall because my memory, like yours,is damaged due to PTSS.
    Most people mean well and do care xx

  8. Hi Tiger! I’m glad to see you comment again. Is that picture you? Wow, you are a very pretty woman. I had a picture of a brunette in my mind 🙂
    I was worried about you, but I understand you needed time. It’s good to see you. Have you talked to someone or did you perhaps lock yourself in your room?

    I was doing quite well thank you Tigerchelle, there are new worries on my mind that involve my eldest son. He is not doing well and I have no idea how I can help him, because he refuses everything I suggest.
    He is game-addicted, lives in his bedroom, doesn’t get out (accept for a drink with friends once a week or once every two weeks). He has not finished any of the 3 studies he started. He has no job either. There is no initiative whatsoever. He will not listen. I’m in a split, should I just leave him alone and let him figure it all out himself of should I ‘force’ help on him (if that is possible at all), like a therapist or social worker?
    I am so scared he is like his dad, meaning a narc. He starts blaming me, as he probably needs a scapegoat, but his accusations my way (involving his lack of interest in studies) do not make sense.
    ……

    Unbelievable :). While I’m writing this my son just came out of his room, telling me he has a job interview in a few days. OMG, he looked happy, telling me this. I applied for this job for him yesterday and told him about it. It’s a low paid job at a fastfood store close by, but at least it will get him out of his room. He did not respond either angry or happy that I did, as if he didn’t care.
    As a mother you always have doubts wether you do the right thing. Are your children really as mature and independent as they think they are or should you intervene, especially when an addiction is involved?

    Sorry Tiger, I made this all about myself, but you asked how I was doing and I can’t just say ‘fine’.
    I hope you are feeling better than you did a few days ago. I read about Borderline again and the fear of abandonment.
    Is it truly a disorder you think or is it a result of narcissictic abuse, I always wonder. I mean is a person born with BPD? When I think about how f*cked up I often felt and responded when N-ex provoked and gaslighted me and how at ease I am now (except for the worries about my son).. it makes such a difference. I never had this kind of Borderline behaviour with friends.
    How is that for you? Is it something you deal with all of the time, regardless of who you are dealing with? Can you tell me about moments that you feel at ease, when that is?

    I hope surviving will become existing without anxiety, will become feeling at ease, will become enjoying daily life for you Tigerchelle.
    There has rarely been a moment in all of my life that I felt at ease. Hardly ever. I am passed 50 now and these days there are only moments that I feel not at ease. That is a huge difference for me. I hope you’ll get there too. Take care Tiger, big hug! xx

    1. Are you saying you exhibited Borderline behavior? I did as well. I was convinced I had it. I do not. The therapist said it’s called lying down with dogs and getting up with fleas. If the narc has secondary Borderline tendencies of the victims will start to exhibit them too. It’s is temporary in nature though

      1. Hi Lori, I recognized my behaviour as kind of Borderlinish, but it wasn’t of real great concern to me because I knew I had this behaviour only when involved with the narcs (although I had no clue they were narcs at the time). I have been looking what disorder I could have though, like perhaps ADD or Avoidant PD, but nothing really fitted, except for HSP.
        This was confirmed by my therapist last year.
        And right now I am convinced that all this behaviour and my confusion, avoidance, mindfuck, depression and suicide wishes were all due to life long narcissistic abuse (in combination with HSP).

        “The therapist said it’s called lying down with dogs and getting up with fleas.” Haha, I like that expression Lori. xx

    2. Blank

      Hey, yes that is a latest pic of me! My hair is highlighted!

      Thank you for your concern and kindness!

      I talk to my husband a LOT. He is a good man, and let’s me spill whatever is on my mind. He is my best friend and confidant and my carer.

      I’m sorry to hear of all these worries on your mind, but glad you could talk them out here.
      I do not have children, so maybe others could help more with this and advice….

      All I can suggest is to keep lines of communication open. Be patient with them. Sometimes young men, find it difficult to communicate their feelings. The games help them to not think, and just to focus on that, rather than any worries/feelings they may have.
      Reassurance and encouragement is needed in this harsh world, but especially for children.
      I hope the job interview goes well.

      Take care my lovely, and hugs to you too xx

      1. Tigerchelle, I am very happy for you to have such a fine husband who will hear you.

        I guess you don’t like to get in to my questions, that’s fine, perhaps you discussed it elsewhere here.

        “Reassurance and encouragement is needed in this harsh world, but especially for children.”

        Absolutely!
        With an addiction though an intervention is necessary, because an addict can’t always get out of the vicious circle him/herself. I couldn’t get my husband out, but I sure hope it’s not too late for my son.
        It appears I did the right thing, because he looks all happy now. So I sure hope he’ll get the job.

        I was going to ask Windstorm for information, since I read somewhere she has a child (or children) with NPD.

        Thank you Tigerchelle. Best wishes to you and take care! xx

      2. Blank

        Yes, I am grateful very much to have a good husband. I just wish he had a better and more healthier wife.

        Addiction is very difficult, and I do understand those vicious cycles, as I have dealt with addictions. It is a very painful process too. Sometimes if I’m addicted to something, there can be the tendency to want to intervene and bring about the desired solution. This must be even stronger when its your child. Obviously you know best being his mother as you know him.

        I’m now going to just mention my experience with addiction, as it may be useful, or it may not, and that’s fine either way.

        I had a certain addiction, where I spent hours and hours on my phone every day, all day, to the detriment of literally everything else. I would get so focused and into it, that nothing else around me mattered. It became my new world which I had created, and kept me engaged to such an extent, so that I didn’t have to deal with the reality of my feelings and the pain/turmoil I felt inside.
        There was a tendency for my husband to just take my phone away from me, and then the addiction would have to end. However, when I asked him why he would not do that, he said that he did not want to take away my free will away and then I end up hating him for that. He would obviously help me with that addiction, and do all he could, but he didn’t want to force me, otherwise what is often the case is, someone like myself will just find another way.

        I realise each situation is unique though and different. So what may be beneficial with one, may not work with another.

        Yes, there are other ladies here with children, who would be more able to help. Maybe HG could help also with a consultation.

        Let me have a think more about the questions and I will get back to you.

        I remember you’ve said English is not your first language? May I reassure you that although that may be the case, your English is as good as any English person, and probably better than some English speaking people certainly I’ve met. (Not talking about anyone in here).

        Please let us know how your son gets on and I hope things turn out well.

        Best wishes to you also x

      3. Blank
        I have 2 sons with NPD. I thought about responding earlier, but our family is very “tough-love.” I sense you may feel differently. I am always willing to answer any questions, though.

      4. Tigerchelle, hi!

        I’m happy to come across a lot of your comments that tells me you really are a sensible intelligent woman and it never crossed my mind you could be a narc. Just satying because of what you said last week.

        Please whenever next time you feel like getting your frustrations out, address it to me, I can handle it. Personally, I think it is a good thing to get emotions out. Respressed emotions cause long term problems.
        Try not to be depedent on other people’s validation. You are good the way you are and you can only work on your own issues the best you can. You did not cause BPD yourself.

        “I had a certain addiction”

        I’m glad it says you had and not have. You don’t tell what eventually caused you to quit the addiction. Would you mind telling?
        It’s not really a phone addiction I guess, it’s probably whatever there was to look at that caused the addiction.
        I am not addicted to my desktop PC, but I certainly was addicted to Musician Narc for 3 to 4 years, which caused me to sit in front of my PC hour after hour, especially once the mindfuck started.

        “It became my new world which I had created, and kept me engaged to such an extent, so that I didn’t have to deal with the reality of my feelings and the pain/turmoil I felt inside”

        Tiger, I guess that is what all addictions are about. An escape.

        “Let me have a think more about the questions and I will get back to you.”

        If these questions cause you to have to think too much, or you just don’t feel like answering, don’t bother Tiger. It’s okay. I was just wondering, but you do not need to come back to them if you don’t feel like it.

        About English, I know my English isn’t to bad, but I feel it is poor, because I can not express myself the way I’d like to. I learned English being an aupair in the UK and feel like I never really got beyond the ‘diaper/ironing/snotty noses-level’. You see a comment but it doesn’t tell you about the time it took me to write it, nor the time it took to read other people’s comments. I go back and forth to Google. From your comment this time I had to look up “turmoil”, “detriment” and “tendency”. Even when I read a sentence and can sort of guess what a particular word must mean, I’ll still look it up to be sure.

        I want to write 2 more comments to other people and than stop commenting for a while. I feel like I am a bit too much, so I’ll quit for a while and just read. I hope you will be okay Tiger, I like you. Take care, love Blank xx

      5. Windstorm,

        How come whenever I think of you I kind of feel a relaxed vibe?
        That’s probably why I wanted to ask you a few questions about my son. Also because I feel your situation is a bit comparable to mine, being with a Cerebral greater.
        Thank you for responding to my comment.
        I had to look up tough-love 🙂 I mean I know tough and I know love, but I guessed there must be a special meaning in English.

        How one feels about it depends on the interpretation of tough-love I guess. My mother’s interpretation would be a lot different from mine.

        I really appreciate you are willing to answer my questions and I would value your insight. But I want to wait a bit how things are developing the next weeks. I’m not sure if discussing my children on a public blog like this is the right thing to do. If we could discuss it privately it would feel more appropriate. Here I might feel like I’m ‘smearing’ my children. I know I have ‘smeared’ my other narcs, but with children it feels more vulnerable.
        Also I want to have a break commenting on this blog.
        I think I am a bit too much lately. This blog takes a lot of my time as well and there are things that need to be done that need my priority now. I know that once I start to get into this with you, I’m hooked for another couple of weeks :). But I might in the future. Thank you very much Windstorm, you are very kind. Take care! xx

      6. My dear HG, where did my comment to Tigerchelle go? I wrote it just before I wrote my comment to Windstorm. Are you gaslighting me again sweetheart? 😘

      7. HG,

        “No. There are comments sat in moderation as you well know.”

        Yes sir!
        I am well aware of that. It’s just that I’m really curious what the criteria are you operate with.
        There was nothing in this comment to Tigerchelle that needed ‘extra’ thought. You say elsewhere that you follow the time line in which the comments come to you. I can imagine some comments need extra consideration. I even understand why some of my comments don’t make it at all to this blog. That’s fine. But you must not think that I am an idiot. I’ve had 50 years of gaslighting and narcish manipulation and I know damn well why you did not allow this comment through, but you did the other one to Windstorm.

        You do manipulate, you are a narc after all and now don’t tell me you would not do this here, because you are professional and it wouldn’t make sense, blah blah blah, like you told me before.

        I know saying this will have no effect whatsoever, on the contrary it will make me look stupid again and all your stormtroopers (I liked Tigerchelle to be so brave to mention this, it’s the damn truth) will come to your defence, as if you are not mature enough to speak for yourself. Still sometimes the truth just need to be told.

        Have a nice evening Mr. Tudor. Don’t forget to say your prayers before you go to bed, because up there they don’t like lying and gaslighting.

        PS: I do not care what you do with this comment, whatever gives you the most fuel darling, I am in a generous mood tonight.

      8. I have explained the criteria previously and it is also mentioned in the rules. No, there is no manipulation – what happens is that those who demand their comments appear or lack patience when they are in moderation bandy the M word around without any actual evidence of it. I have seen it happen a number of occasions and it speaks volumes about the accuser. Others either wait for the comment to appear or politely e-mail and ask if they have offended me or a rule – their alternative approach also speaks volumes as to what they are.

      9. My god, are you seriously commenting on something I said almost a month ago?

        WhY? Not enough fuel Tudor? Am I too quiet lately?
        This really makes me mad.
        Fuck you HG!!

        FUCK YOUI!!!!!

      10. It has been in moderation awaiting a time when I have had opportunity to address it. Other readers will tell you they have had comments remain in moderation for longer and they have not raised an issue about it.

        First you complain that the comment is held in moderation (the reason being it is held is because I wish to read, consider and reply) and then you complain that I have commented on it after it has been in moderation. Nothing to do with fuel, everything to do with the process of moderation as I have repeatedly told you.

      11. HG,

        “their alternative approach also speaks volumes as to what they are.”

        Are you seriously suggesting here that I am a narc??

        You know, yhis is not about me feeling entitled to see my comments here. It is about the person I am addressing.

        T was suicidal. I talk with her and try to comfort her. If you do not allow my comment through, after she wrote a comment to me, she will think that I ignore her. That is why I was upset.

      12. I allow the comments through once they have been moderated as I have made clear repeatedly.

      13. “… as I have made clear repeatedly.. ”
        “… as I have made clear repeatedly..”

        Yes, you’re like a parrot on xtc.

  9. Thank you, Windstorm… I see about the “odd one”. It confused me, at first, but now I see. 😘 I hope you get my reply!

  10. HG
    No offense but this made me nauseous. Sometimes your posts are very difficult to read. Thank you for the education on narcissism. Knowledge does mean power.

      1. True. I prefer the medicine you dispense (on the blog) instead of communicating and staying in contact with my ex.

      2. Glug, glug, glug! ….swallow painfully…, choking cough, …glug, glug, glug! And repeat.

      3. HG, this was the only reply box for You. Thank you for liking the Jigsaw Puzzle idea.

  11. I wondered why me always being there for him and declaring my love for him didn’t seem to keep him sweet…thank you, HG! A third party (lieutenant?) confided in me that he had told her that I left my husband for him and chastised me for that action. Apparently the narc stated “if she will do that to him, then what’s to stop her doing that to me.” My jaw dropped. I explained that I had been married for 28 years and therefore my track record spoke for itself…I was not in the habit of dropping one man for another. I fell in love with the narc. I don’t know if it was a smear campaign as there was some truth in the statement (I did leave my husband for the narc)…I looked at it as a poor excuse that he used to explain to the third party why we were not seeing each other anymore. The narc did say one thing very truthful: “I couldn’t give her what she wanted: LOVE”. Well that certainly was a truthful statement. He can never love anyone. HG, was it a smear or a deflection on his part?

      1. Thank you so much, HG. I have read your excellent article on the Smear Campaign and I choose #8, to ignore it. I am not mentioning it to him and the third party involved said the narc was an asshole and the result of bad parenting, so she didn’t take much stock in his remarks. For clarification (and the fact I didn’t explain things well), his remark was not about me leaving him, but about why we were not still seeing each other due to him being afraid that if I would do that to my husband, then I would do it to him (the narc).

  12. I love that you write, ‘We only want…Fuel…we don’t care how good-looking you are, how much a “whore”..between the sheets’. When you get criticized no matter how good-looking or sexy you are, and they go after any slutty thing complimenting them no matter how they look, it’s just nice to hear you say that.

    1. Narc makes women slutty, encourages it in them, and gets away with it. Their minds are all on him, not their husbands or their children. I’ve seen one young girl go nuts, she ended up looking anorexic, one eventually ended up divorced, one who lost her job because he used her on his climb to the top. #metoo

      1. HG,
        Please Write a Boss at the Office Narc so I can share it on FB. Everyone thinks he’s so nice. Women bend over chairs when he walks by, wear ridiculously short skirts for their age, wear low cut tops when they fill in at the front desk. He’s got everyone trained to perform and under his spell, while he looks angelic. They degrade themselves, everyone all smiles, the devil and his victims.

      2. Oh, and I have seen men disappear because of him. I was always like some possession on his back burner, and while he was chasing someone else, men at the office weren’t allowed to talk to me. He sent one of the guys out once to tell a man I was chatting with to get up and go to another area. A salesman at an office party gave me, like longing ‘love eyes’, and the boss saw it, was standing right there, staring at the man very seriously. The guy disappeared the next day, no goodbyes, didn’t pack up anything, no forwarding address.

  13. Reminds me of the first time Jack is horrible to Wendy in The Shining.
    She asks him how he is doing..
    Also says she will later make some sandwiches for him…he is just horrible to her..Horrible.

    Jack N is so entertaining granted and its just a horror movie but the bits where he launches into a strop with her…I always end up saying…awww…and feeling so, so awful for her..she is so sweet natured.

    That stuff in real life…that switch..And when someone is so good natured on the receiving end…
    makes my blood boil.

    Never mind their eyes allegedly turning black…lol…check out these red globes!!

    Grrrrr

    Anyway..probably better to flash ’em briefly and walk off.
    (Always with the walking off..it really is something that I honestly do)
    Though to be fair it never failed to rile whoever. Just an unfortunate side effect often escalating things and that isnt desirable…but tough.

    I never stand sit or stay in that bs enviro!
    “If you can fill the unforgiving minute with 60 seconds worth of distance run…”
    (Good old Rudyard K…me, him and that poem “if” ..we’re like this 🤞) Haha.

  14. Hi HG. I’ve been reading you for years. The narc/sociopath I know is upper low grade or lower midgrade. I have tons of proof of his crimes since most were used to hurt us. Now he has a lawsuit for malpractice I’d like advice on collecting as compensation for my daughter. Suddenly the journals I wrote through 22 years of abusive, horrible co-parenting seem more valuable than just for my therapy. I would like to consult with you privately but am not sure you still do that.

  15. So…the million dollar question is…when the new victim is bullet ridden do you attempt to help he or she understand what has happened (if applicable) or do you chain them to fate and maybe he or she discovers the truth as we have or maybe they do not?

      1. Sorry HG, I should have been more clear. I was putting it out there for those who might have the new victim reach out to them for answers after he or she is disengaged from.

    1. Pale Horse
      That is a tough one. If the individual reaches out to you, then I think it is ok to help, however, it may backfire so be careful and expect to be smeared by your ex. I would go on instinct with that one, as long as you don’t mind the potential consequences.

      1. Hi K,
        Thank you for your response. Fortunately, I have not encountered such a situation but thought that it did merit some deliberation. For me, I believe much heartbreak would have been alleviated post disengagement had I known what was actually happening. It was a few months before I stumbled upon this blog and it all made sense.

      2. Pale Horse
        I completely agree with you. Once I found out about NPD (Groundhog Day 2017), it was a huge relief! Then I found HG on YouTube by the end of February. Then you can focus on repairing your broken heart and moving forward.

      3. Yes, I was thinking today how fast I’ve moved on relative to breakups with normal. It is quite astounding.

      4. I’m so proud of you Dr. PH! You really have come a long way. I’ve halfway expected you to drop off the blog. I’m glad you’re still here. Cancers have very tender hearts and are quite sensitive. One of my sons is a Cancer. The first girl that breaks his heart is going to have to deal with me!

      5. Thanks MB. Yes, I am definitely the stereotypical Cancer (as in the astrological sign lol). I do not foresee dropping off the blog for a variety of reasons. I think I’ll be a long-timer here not only to learn but to be there for others as well.

      6. Dr. PH, Yes, I meant Cancer the crab 🦀. Fewer things are more painful to me than a weeping man. The pain a man must feel to be brought to tears is immense and it hurts to watch. I feel joy that you’ve moved forward from that place of despair. Even more joyful is that you are compelled to stay and help others. My wish for you is to have the opportunity to give your kind, sensitive heart to a woman that will treasure it and keep it safe. I’ve got a song dedication for you. I heard this and thought of you. (Your ex)

        https://youtu.be/wEj6lRWDYEs

      7. MB, not many things make me cry. Those things that do are extremely painful. Not that I am not in great pain beforehand but I have a high threshold before the tears flow. When it does occur, I do see the beauty in it all…the capacity to love and feel that deeply. Despair is not a place I would like to visit again…those were painful, anguishing days….pre HG…pre- all of you on the blog. Still healing though and rebuilding. So…I stay…because I owe all of you…because there is something special happening here. There are too many people suffering because they do not know what they are up against…because they do not know about HG (yet)…because they do not know we exist…that help resides here…REAL help. Born out of HG’s master plan (whatever that may turn out to be)….nurtured by an army of weaponized yet still compassionate people. As for me, I often think my window to find the person you described has closed. But time will tell.

      8. PH, “I often think my window to find the person you described has closed.” Nonsense! Unless you’re dead, which obviously you are not! Do you mind sharing your age? I understand if you don’t.

        There IS something special happening here. I feel fortunate to be a part of it.

        The high threshold before the tears flow is what is so painful to see. I hope it didn’t appear that I find fault with a man crying or that I consider it weak. Quite the opposite. It takes a strong man to show that kind of vulnerability. I’m glad those darkest days are behind you. It’s ironic that the person shining the light for you is a narcissist.

      9. MB, I am 44. And no I did not take your statement to mean that you consider it a fault or weak. I think we are on the same page.

      10. PH, I imagined you younger considering you recently finished school. That’s neither here nor there. Gen Xers are the best! I’m 45.

      11. Thanks for the song MB. The sentence you wrote about a woman treasuring my heart and keeping in safe cut me deep. In a good way. That’s all I ever wanted from nex. She could not step up to the plate.

      12. I didn’t mean for it to hurt you Dr. There are women out there like that. Women that wouldn’t hurt you for the world. Everybody deserves to give and receive that kind of love and I wish that for you.

        Unfortunately, there will be some that are just after your resources. (Residual benefits) That’s the last thing you need in your life! I suggest you drive a beater car when you go out on the town. Keep the BMW in the garage 😉

      13. Dr. P H
        I believe this is a fairly recent accomplishment? I hope you enjoy seeing that preceding your name as much I do writing it. A hard fought for new beginning for you in many ways, and I’m glad to hear that you intend to remain on the blog. We are happy to have you here, and can only benefit from any opinions and viewpoints you have to offer as a male, a doctor, a fellow empath, and survivor of narcissistic abuse.
        NA

      14. Thanks NA. It is a recent accomplishment and a hard fought one at that. Outside of this blog, it is difficult to be a male and share my experience with others. I do not speak about it much.

  16. HG~ I read your blog daily, maybe a bit obsessive about reading it as I heal from a 6 year relationship with a N. A yo-yo and I go back every single time. But this time is different. I caught him in his own games of the “dirty little secret” cheating. I found the truth confronted and informed the husband of the woman (my ex boyfriend). My head is still spinning. HG~ is it safe to say that I have caused such a NARC injury that it’s possible there is never going to be a hoover to suck me back in? I can deal with the SMEAR campaign, or negative fuel he tries to get out of me. But is it possible to cause such a injury that they wont ever try coming back?

    Thank you

    1. No, the effect of wounding fades over time, plus even if there is wounding other factors may overrule its impact so a hoover still occurs.

      1. Thank you HG Tudor. Not that you need to hear this but your voice is valued on many levels. Ha ha there’s some fuel for this morning. 🙂

      2. This is not encouraging. It is never pleasant to wound someone- especially someone you care about (his worthiness of such emotional investment is another matter)….but in an effort to escape the clutches, the idea that no action will deter him is disheartening.

    2. Harvard, every time you arm yourself with knowledge and begin to heal yourself is another brick in the wall, another plait in your suit of armour, which in and of itself is a deterrent.

  17. I would not be the least bit surprised that rage is directed at the new prize being paraded about. Why is this person better than I? She’s not half as good as I am, how could he leave me for her? He loved me more. I believe, however, that as the understanding of narcissism grows the rage is redirected where it belongs, at the perpetrator of the abuse.

    When the affair came to light, my friend told me “I’m not stupid, I saw what was going on. I saw you dressing up for him. He does this to everyone who pays attention to him. He has a roster of people in the company he’s slept with. Sorry honeybunches, you aren’t the only one.”

    The biggest blow was when I found out that my name had been brought up in regards to a threesome. She knew all these things, saw what was going on, and said nothing. Even when I was willing to cut ties with him as a friend she told me he and I could absolutely stay friends. Why didn’t she warn me? When I asked her, she said:

    I never thought he would do it to you.

    For a long time I was incredibly angry at her – I was being scapegoated and held to task while he waltzed away on to do whatever he pleased. My life was a shambles. I’m not angry at her anymore. I understood then that she had been abused, but after being on here for a while now, the devastation is achingly clear. She was trying to reinstate the golden period; she turned a blind eye, forgave, continuing the cycle, in denial to the full extent of what he was subjecting her too.

    Anger is a very real stage of grief, and often it can be misdirected. Her anger at me, my anger at her. We cannot control what we feel, we can however, control what we do with it. I took a long hard look at mine, and put it at the feet of the person who truly deserved it.

    Healing is a very messy process.

    1. Wounded,
      This threesome bid is a re-ocurring theme I think.
      HG, is there a reason for this threesome desire beyond what I have absorbed from your work (anything else you can add)?

      – Triangulation
      – Humiliation
      – Devaluation
      – Test of desperation/willingness for one or both appliances
      – Power of the Narc and show of ‘I own them’

      Cockwaffle tried that with me and his triangulation target. I’m still not sure which of us was the IPPS or IPSS. At any rate, he’d brought her in as the second with a previous appliance triangulation- and then re-arranged the players with me involved. He even mentioned a mother/daughter aspect (someone asked me what my final eff-this moment was- there it is)

      Cockwaffle’s female colleagues know. His female staff knows. His housekeeper knows. His ex wife knows. Now I know.

      It’s mind-boggling that this abuse of women (primarily) just continues. I realize to them we are ‘appliances’ but does it stand to reason if we bond together and just collectively say ‘no’ that it will do anything to deter it? I doubt it, but I would not want anyone to go through what I am going through— and what some of his other targets are going through, right now.

      A scene from “Girl With The Dragon Tattoo” comes to mind. A marked indicator of a man’s behaviors.

      The best line in the movie:
      “Hold still. I’ve never done this before, and there will be blood.”

      1. I agree with the reoccurring theme of threes. I wonder – the triangle that is formed between parents and a child. Just idle musing.

        A) Cockwaffle? I love that.

        B) I am literally reading Girl with a Dragon Tattoo series right now. I keep hearing Lisbeth Salander in my head.

      2. Harvard, from my point of view:

        Narcissists need to stay above you. That’s why they triangulate.

        Humiliation and devaluation of the victim are mere profitable side-effects to their all-absorbing need for power.

        To us it presents as a toxic mix, to them it all contributes to their need to be above you.

        They have done it before, they know there will be blood – but they can not do otherwise. They only feel safe within this limited repertoire of conduct (plus they lack empathy).

      3. Love that movie…..”Girl with the dragon tatoo”….. That line is awesome!!!

    2. Wounded,
      I know that feeling on both sides. The revenge mixed with feelings of powerlessness and just god knows what else. She keeps forgiving him hoping that he will always come back to her even though there are no guarantees that he will stay.
      She neglects her own life, her own future.
      Who is to say that 20 years down the road he won’t dump her when he upgrades for a newer model? She spent her youth, the best years of her life stuck in an abusive relationship with no future…. hoping. Hope is a dangerous feeling. People are stuck in horrible relationships hoping that the abuser will change, that an epiphany will come about and he will realize it. I hate hope right now.

      Do you think he will be there for her when she begins to develop some serious condition?

      Unless he has something to gain from it, the answer is no.
      My ex narc stayed by his ex wife’s side during her terminal illness because he wanted to prove to his daughters that he was not the nasty man the ex wife accused him of. He wanted to show them that in spite of everything, he is a good father. Yeah right. He doesn’t care if what he’s doing is damaging them. Nope. He will give you a long list of explanations. He can care less about anyone else but his image and he will do whatever it takes to preserve that. And that’s where you see the issue. He will hurt, devalue people in front of his daughters. It is very important to him to make sure that they see that they are his number 1. So expect to be dumped, left behind, not invited to family events and etc…the family “cliquish” bullshit.

      There is no future with a man like that and whoever stays with him, will experience all forms of devaluation and isolation from him and his daughters. Triangulation 24/7, 365.

      So, each situation is different but the end result is the exactly the same.

      Yesterday, I was finally able to put all his stuff away, including my black diamond collar. His shirts, tees, underwear, belt and all the jewelry were put away. I will sell what can be sold and throw in the trash or donate the rest. I am erasing him completely from my life. Every time I see something that is of him, the thing is gone.
      I already got rid of some songs that used to remind me of him, nail polishes, perfume, pillows… everything going to Craig’s list, goodwill, trash or for resale (the jewelry). I am fucking done.

      He is out of all my social media. All of it. I unfriended him, his idiotic family as well. I unfriended friends we have in common. I blocked phone numbers. He can keep them. I can make new friends.

      Currently, no one can see my Facebook page. My timeline is blocked from everyone’s view. My profile picture removed and deleted. I don’t want him to see my face. If I could I would put a middle finger there, but it would be fuel so never mind. Twitter account is private. No pictures there either.

      His mistake is allowing the distance and the passage of time weakened his influence over me. Not that I tho k he cares, I just think he expects that he will recover this lost ground.

      But his busy with his new primary source right now so I have the upper hand.
      The only thing that I know for sure is that it won’t last because as soon as the relationship begins to move forward, as soon as the woman puts pressure, he will begin to disintegrate. she won’t have to deal with his issues of cheating and whoring but also with his daughters, particularly the older one who is also a narcissist. So it is like a “knife fight” in the dark.

      I know he will be coming back when hew relationship begins to fall apart… in the typical mid range style: victim.

      1. She finally dumped him when she found out he flew his crazy ex out and lied about it. She is DONE.

        I try to be careful and discuss it with her. It is only usually vaguely referred to. Everything from restaurants to songs are “tainted”. We have a very strong friendship now that narc is gone.

        I looked up his ex on ffaFacebook out of curiosity. She had a strength quote posted and was selling rugs and couches. More than likely purging too.

      2. I also heard about his threesome fantasies. It never happened with me but there is more to it than just sex.

        The thing about the ex was the fact that he wanted to hurt and humiliate the other girl. Things like making her eat his feces and then beat her was often mentioned. Humiliation and violence.

        One time he said that he wanted to whip her until she was bleeding. The other time he talked about stabbing her. The other time about beating her.

        I mentioned to him that it was a bit alarming to hear those thoughts and that he needed some help with those “feelings”. He said that if a woman agrees to a threesome then she is a whore and he hates whores. I said, well, if you are one of the participants then what are you?
        He said… I would just punish her and put her in her place. She is just a toy. Nothing else.

        I would get quiet.

        I didn’t know what to do with that information. You can’t call the police on that. I would have to involve his family and he would manipulate everything, deny everything and I would be the target of his rage but this guy lives in two simultaneous worlds. The reality and the thoughts in his mind.

        I am indeed lucky that I am no longer with him, because if he plays out those fantasies….

        He would react really strange when, for instance, in a movie someone was stabbed, cut. It was almost as if he could feel the cut in himself. He would move in the chair, restless, as if he felt the pain. You could tell it was hard for him to watch it. It was almost as if he was feeling an orgasm. It was that latent in him.
        I watched him with the corner of my eye. I watched his every reaction. everything. And it was always the same. Cuts, stabbings are his thing.

      3. Kathy that has elements of sadism and psychopathy. That is terrifying. I didn’t go for the three some bit (he caught on and switched up his tune. He was subtle about it.) but in this case was more about the idea of control and entitlement.

        It gives me the heebie newbies reading that. Definatley gone now right?

      4. Yes. Gone.

        Yes he is a sadist. He does like inflicting pain. I have considered the psychopath aspect but pushed it aside when I was with him. People usually mistake the terms psychopath with sociopath. They aren’t the same. I see people calling HG a psychopath, when HG said his diagnosis is a sociopath. The are closely related by psychopaths are a step forward in the process.

        I didn’t want to accept the fact that my ex narc has strong
        psychopath traits until I noticed how quickly he could turn off his “feelings”, even for the people he had close relationships with. Also when I remember the things he said, the willingness to inflict pain, and the things that he wanted to do, I can now consider the possibility. What will be the trigger that will get him in the court system? I don’t know. But I think that if he finds a woman who agrees to play his fantasies along with him, I would not be surprised if he doesn’t begin doing something criminal.

        The beginning of the end of our relationship happened when I found a shoe box hidden deep in his closet. It had blood saved in silver containers, papers smeared with blood, underwear, cotton pieces dirty with blood, cards, letters… diaries… blood everywhere.
        I felt my stomach crunching. My heart was pounding in my chest.

        I took pictures of everything. I made a video of the closet, the box in the closet, the things in the box, all the information I could get about the woman, her cards to him, letters, pictures of her body, her name, address, everything. EVERYTHING.

        I remember my whole body shaking almost uncontrollably afterwards.
        I put everything back in place and I got very quiet. I never mentioned it to him.
        I have everything saved in a very safe place.

      5. Wow Kathy… my heart jumped into my throat

        I hope you are far away from THAT. It sounds no good not at all
        No
        In my experience, the violent ones were the ones that had addiction problems. Once they would imbibe , they couldn’t stop. Of course alcohol only added to the problem. Drugs too.

        So so sorry xx

      6. It is just so bizarre. I can understand attracting narcissists due to my personality traits and etc… but why do I attract the psychopath/sociopath in the mix?
        Omfg.
        My ex-husband is in jail due to alcohol/drugs and violence. He shot someone, after beating another guy nearly dead in a “moment” of anger.

        Now this last narc having these tendencies as well.

        I can get over the narc fact but what is freaking me out is the psychopath element added to the mix.

      7. Kathy M,

        We must give off similar signs. The “paths” (malignant narcs) tend to veer my direction too. I’d be curious to learn what attracts them, but more importantly – what is it about them, that attracts ME??

        Stay safe, stay sane, stay single 😂

      8. It seems to be heading on that direction right now:single. I am not really looking for a relationship but rather learning about these guys out there. Observation. I can say that at least 4 guys who have contacted me are narcissists. One was so obvious that it was actually funny. So, that one was given. Love-bombing was an understatement. I posted some of his first messages in my blog. Then I got bored with the sexual innuendos, and “his assertive tone” as it felt he had my life planned already, so I just dropped him altogether. He still sends messages but I obviously don’t answer any. I ignore them. I just observe his reactions, the contained fury hidden behind the sarcasm. One time I sent him a “hi” with a smile and holy shit. The guy bombarded me with everything he could. I could feel his focus 100% on me, like a shark coming to feast. Hehehe… This is a greater for sure because he is very contained, very polite, very controlled but you can “smell” those vibes.

        The other 3 were more subtle but as the conversations progressed I could pinpoint some red flags. For instance, one would stop texting me after 7pm. I could text an answer to a question he had made and he would answer me the following day around 9am. When I asked him why he disappeared after 7pm, he denied he did it and then tried to answer every so often. His answers would come all crumbled, letters missing, words typed wrong… Oooooppps! Are we in a hurry or what?
        After I tortured him sending MOST of my messages after 7pm, I simply stopped communication, which is also driving him nuts. I think I received at least 8 messages asking me what happened.
        Goodbye married, attached … whatever narc.

        The other two turned out to be very self absorbed. After the first messages, the dialogue was about me, me, and , me. “Ok go ahead. Let’s talk about you. Tell me what you think about me” type of guys. So boring. I could sleep through it. One of them kept asking my opinion about certain “family” situations, sorta like: oh how would you react if someone did this or that or said this or that. The first time he asked me, I thought it was ok. Maybe he’s trying to get a feeling for my personality. But when he kept coming to me with more and more of those questions, a red flag went up. He’s with someone else and he has no clue how to react to her because it sounded to me that she was a narcissist herself. So of course at that point I began misleading him. I know I am bad but he used of my time, didn’t he? Now it is payback time. Strangely, on his last message he said that this “family member” went enraged when he did as I suggested and broke his TV…. ouch!

        So, if these guys are not narcissists, they definitely had strong narc traits which for me, by the end of the day, won’t keep me warm in a cold winter night. So… narc if not, if the guy is a dick head, self serving little boy and I catch on that, trust me, there will be a payback.

        And no. They don’t have my phone number. We talk via kik. I REFUSE to give them my new phone number.

        Living and learning.

      9. Kathy, holy shit. I hope you have a good support network in place. Friends/family you absolutely trust, maybe even a co worker or two. Also, narcissism seems to overlap quite a bit with psycho/sociopathy. More than likely the traits that attract narcissism also attract these as well.

      10. I am trying to rebuild a different support network. I don’t want “share” friends with him and my family is mostly narc so forget about it. That’s why I come here very often. It keeps my head straight and my anxiety level low. I still feel sick inside but I am getting better with each day that goes by. I just have felt very tired lately. I have been sleeping a lot. Any available time I have, I spend sleeping… my energy level is very low. It is not depression. It is just exhaustion. I was with him for 06 years and I am now “decompressing”…

      11. Kathy,

        I know you probably aren’t a fan of me – which is totally okay but I have to say something about a few of the posts on this thread (haven’t read it all yet). HOLY FUCKING SHIT….

        That sadist guy….that is some sick shit. I RARELY ever get the chills that guy….THAT GUY….I hope you have no contact at all with him and he can’t find you. That is some straight up serial killer shit.

        Ted Bunny….when he was helping the police catch the green river killer….he was talking about how this type of guy would like slasher films and how it was arouse him and he went into this whole profile…LOOK UP TED BUNDY ON THE GREEN RIVER KILLER….

        I will read the rest of this thread carefully now but I had to shoot you a message ASAP – i impulsively had to respond and now I am gonna like i said read more and process all the information because i like was jolted by something i read….

        I’ll be back in a few to process and write…

      12. Dr. Q,
        I saw your postings but I am on my iPhone and I can’t find them right now. I saw the videos you shared.
        To answer some of your questions. I don’t know the women so I cannot assure that they are well. The one he saw concurrently with me, lives in Maine and I believe she is still alive. As I have been “disengaged” he may be back with her. I don’t know. I know he used to travel to several different places in the US and overseas, including England, so he preferred to have his primary sources spread and away from each other. Since we were together for 6 years and just now he seemed to fully disengage from me, it is very safe to assume that his current victim is in town. Lucky me…. temporarily at least because he will come back to me for healing and… more… and that is when the problems will really happen….

        I am his safe haven. I have been with him for 6 years. I know A LOT.
        I stayed when others left and in his mind this will prove even more true when she leaves him.
        He has not cancelled the line on my old iPhone. It is in his name. For someone who hates spending money, he is surely paying a small price to keep the line active.
        I have my own line now of which he doesn’t know of yet. So by him keeping the old line active, it tells me he is not cutting the connection with me on his end.

        The battle will happen. The stalemate will end. It just remains to be seen if I will be the one nailing the last punch… which I am ready to do.

        I was in a M/s relationship with him and as far as most people think that it is just bs… trust me. He didn’t buy me a diamond collar to let me go that easy. He believes I am his and jealousy is not something I want to cause in him, unless my next boyfriend is a psychotic police officer… if you know what I mean.

        He is a computer programmer/software designer.

        I met him via a dating web site. Since we were both local things seemed “safe”.
        He hides behind the title of “Dominant” to find specific type of women who will submit to his wishes but he will take what he can get given that he likes the woman. He will go to one night stands and do whatever she allows and if he likes her, she will receive a second phone call. He was different with me because I didn’t sleep with him right away so to his eyes I was “worth” while the others were just “whores”. No It didn’t make me feel any special.

        I did a google search with his nickname and I saw he had accounts in many obscure dating web sites like adult finder, passion.com, and two others including a profile on fetlife. That is where he found some of these women. If they survived him, I honestly don’t know.
        What I can say is that he fantasizes about beating people, whipping them until they bleed, cutting people and drink their blood, and he has mentioned about killing someone and then having sex on top of her dead body, then just leave them there, like they are nothing.

        He also has cross-dressing fantasies. He would repeat it over and over again about applying eye-liners, coloring his nails black, wearing specific underwear. For me, as far as it didn’t become true, I was not so concerned.

        But I noticed that he was getting more and more restless as if looking for means to make some of these things come true. The thing about him is that he wants someone else to create the environment while he just walks in and enjoys it. He doesn’t want to do the work. So nothing ever happened with me. But I have the feeling that this will eventually leak out to the wrong person, especially if he is engaging with someone “vanilla” or worse, someone with similar traits and she will weaponize his fantasies against him. I would not be surprise the least if he didn’t show up on the news as a killer. The hate he has inside, the fantasies to hurt, to dominate, to control others and then dispose of them are overwhelming to him.

        However, there is the element of fear and fear is what holds him back. He is passive aggressive. He would rather enjoy the feast that someone else prepared. He knows he doesn’t have all the skills, especially the self control necessary to go undetected. His inconsistencies, lack of attention to detail, “careless” nature. He knows he can’t live up to that. Yet, give him the right opportunity to do so and I promise you, he won’t miss it.

        Many, many times he said He was the last man I would sleep with. I hope he has changed his mind about that or we are gonna have serious, serious problems.

      13. Kathy,

        I just read what you wrote me and that is terrifying. I personally would search and find information on the girls in the box. I wouldn’t do it from my own computer though I would do it from someone else’s because he’s a tech person. Do you know if you have a keylogger or any spyware on your phone or computers? Cameras? That’s the first thing my mind would go to. Note that This guy clearly kept little souvenirs of his dealings with these girls….

        Did you ever find strange things in his car or around the house? The bloodletting thing caught my attention because my recent ex brought that up a few times and said he wanted to drink my blood. I think I recall him saying something about you use a scalpel or something. Mine also said he wanted to partake in it and never did.

        I know this sounds nuts but maybe a week and a half before I disappeared on him I noticed marks near my upper thigh like underneath and like almost on my lower regions. He was marking me up – huge bruises some were faded but some were really purple – I do rmemeebr during sexual activity sometimes he would bite and suck but I mean I looked like I had all these bruises and like someone was branding me.

        Has anyone here shed light on bloodletting – there isn’t much shit out there because I’ve tried to look into it. I knownwe have a dominatrix or two here so can someone tell me what they know on this practice?

      14. There are no identifiers. Think for how long he has had these trophies. Only he can say. The only one I saw some sort of identification I know she’s married. The others? Just god can tell…
        He always left bruises all over my body. His marks….
        In this case it is not about BDSM. It is about the trophies he gets from his victims….

  18. Oh trust me, I felt that and for a long time I wish she was dead. I honestly still have some leftover of that feeling but is not like it was before. It is getting less and less. I deflected to her the anger that I feel for him. “She deserves it”, because she was his secondary source and she is married. He was “pinging ponging” between the two of us until I caught him. So, I was happy that she got it because in my mind she was the “whore”, the cheater. Of course, I had no clue what he is and also I was wounded. It was ugly and it turned out to be a HUGE mess because she lied to him that trap him. I think she paid a PI to find out if he was cheating on her (geeezzz really?). Then she contacted him saying that someone who lives in my area had posted things about her on Internet. By IP address the web site said it was coming from my area. He was stuck in this situation where he couldn’t talk to me about it and she was telling him all these lies. Long story short, he was treating me bad and I told him I had noticed his anger and I wanted to know what was going on because I was not going to take it.
    That’s why he told me to stop posting things only about the “other girl”. I was like what? So by my reaction he could tell I had not done it. He can smell a lie miles away and he could tell I had no clue. Yet he was furious and that anger was going somewhere. It was not me. But it was a mess because at that point both of us were had a foot out of the door and he knew it. He could feel it.
    When I look back now, I began disengagement then. I had no clue he was a narcissist but I could sense something was very wrong with him.
    At that point, I felt I was “enough” so I began pulling away and away and focusing on myself, giving him less and less. And he was grabbing onto whatever he had for me because I was the primary source and I did a damn good job at it. Remember, I was raised by narcissists. I know the dance. That’s why he was always amazed at how “accommodating” I was….
    He felt we were “One”.

    Once he cheated, that was it. He had other sources to patch up for the lack caused by my distance but his eyes were on me, on my reactions to him. From time to time I would feed him a good dose of everything he wanted and I could almost see tears in his eyes. But then I would again pull away emotionally and he would run to others.

    I had to do something for myself. Anything. So, I applied for my Master’s degree and got accepted in the program. He supported me but you could tell he was wounded. After that is his story as he finally discarded me.

    These days, I don’t feel so much that way about that lady because if it was not her, it could have been any other woman. But as I remember things I still feel that tug of hate in my stomach… so yes, I am honest. I did feel that way because I saw both as selfish cheaters and the worst that life could throw at them, it would probably not satisfy my hate. I would throw more until the were completely destroyed. Probably it would still not be enough. I would destroy them more and more until total annihilation. Then I would not feel a shit remorse. I would lick my fingers and to taste their destruction and move forward.

    That is my dark side for you. Empathy? Zero. Non-existing. At that point I am a enraged psychopath and I will cause a calculated havoc that will make Sharon Stone look like a kindergartner in her game.

    But hate hides pain and it is gradually going away now that I understand that HE is not normal… So maybe I will save the woman’s soul after all. I don’t know yet. Maybe she needs her lesson as I needed mine.
    But that’s it ladies. I know some of you are married and I don’t mean to criticize or judge. I understand things better now. I was on the receiving end so I hope that explains reactions that you may see from time to time….
    Thank you guys for letting me vent…

    1. Kathy Mor,
      I’m pleased that you feel free to share whatever you need to. We who are here understand, as not many others do in our daily lives. You are amongst friends, and we are all the walking wounded.
      The realisation of how perfectly suited we are for a N-lover is profound, and the new perspective we gain of our childhood, family dynamics, and all previous love-interests is intense, painful, and needs time to process fully. Recovery is time-consuming, isn’t it?

      1. Hi Caroline,
        Thank you.
        Yes it is. But it is fascinating too.
        It is not also recovery but also discovery and reprogramming the mind.
        Just like the narcissist has all these layers of protection so do we because honestly, if we were not getting something back from our narcs, we wouldn’t be doing and putting up with all the crap we do. Lies, cheating and all the immature childish crap that just makes me want to beat the narcissism out of him, until he cracks open.

        And so as I walk through this lengthy process and learn what happened to me, I am also forced to come to terms with things that I have learned to keep hidden below the surface. Aka: denial.

        It was a split and a symbiosis inside of myself between being an empath and a co-dependent. So s co-dependent empath? Well so you know, I HATE admitting the co-dependent weird twist of my personality but it is there and it is what made me crave his approval. What made me the super pleaser, the non-demanding and accommodating girlfriend. The one who couldn’t live without him. The thought of him dying was enough to throw me into despair.

        Now my super empath aspect has a different make up and it is what refused to allow me to go down and crash. So, when the crap broke loose and I felt my whole self being dismantled and I felt that I was going to get sick and die to the point of hospitalization … like falling into this emptiness, the super empath said: fuck no! We aren’t going there sister! We aren’t going down and crash. We will leverage and pull ourselves up and fight back. And I did. Automatic pilot. I had no clue what I was doing.

        It has been the strangest self-preservation mechanism I ever experienced in my life.

        So yes. I just have to face it.
        I am rather impressed that my anger is still fully alive though, churning quietly inside. I am aware of the dangers. So I am just watching it.

        So yes, I can see how one can get snared by a narcissist, particularly a willing victim…. like we are… were(?)

        Every normal guy I have been talking to makes me feel odd. I look at them as if we don’t belong to this same species. Their reactions throws me off and sometimes I don’t know how to react to them. I have only dated narcissists my entire life. I am not used to people say and do, call when they say they will call, leave their phones face up or alone and unlocked in front of me. I am not used to have every kiss and hug corresponded. I am not used to be able to choose what and where I want to eat. I am not used to speak my mind without walking on egg shells. There are no silent treatments!

        If they get upset they just let out all of their feelings! They want to talk about it!!!!

        What do I do???

        The way some of these guys are just transparent, nice, relaxed, caring. Normal people. Sometimes I feel that I am so far from being normal.

        Why am I scared to feel their feelings?

        With my narc was so much easier. There was nothing to feel. Just that usual coldness. Predictable behavior, usual routines. But with a normal male is a whole different ball game! They come strong and full of genuine emotions that make me feel overwhelmed sometimes. Unpredictable.

        I am not complaining. I am just stating my difficulty. I feel so odd like I am an alien. Maybe I will get used to it. I feel drained of energy right now like someone is sucking the life out of me. I am going to take a nap… my mind is confusing today

  19. “It is coming to them as it came to you. I am sure that makes you feel a little better doesn’t it? ”

    This is very narcish and far from the truth. Perhaps some victims will feel this way, but I’m sure there are others that are very worried for the next victims. The thought of other lives being ruined makes me sick to my stomach and if I knew how to prevent it, I would. I can honestly say that I wish my N-exes would be in a happy relationship now, and I would be able to relax.
    The world is so full of narcs and people that are being abused, just read any forum, read the news, it’s horrible.
    It looks like there are two kind of people in this world
    -narcs
    -empaths that are being abused by narcs, so they stop being empathic at one point.

    Yes, this is very black & white and I know it’s not true, because the people that are doing well, they don’t make it to the news, but still, the world is a cruel place for many people.

    1. Hi Blank,
      how are you, lovely?
      the point you made about there seemingly only being two types of people in the world has recently occurred to me too. This came as a surprise to me at first, but now I see it is a normal dynamic in relationships, and it has certainly been so in my family, for at least since records began.
      I listened today to Alain de Botton talking about sex and love, and had to laugh when he described how we say we want someone who will make us happy; we don’t however. What we really want — and who we choose — is someone who makes us suffer in a way that is recognisable to us as ‘love’. We unconsciously reference the feelings we grew up with, and feel no chemistry or excitement without something that approximates them.
      He also talked about how most of us are addicted, and exist on the edge of insanity, trying to keep it together. This is the normal human condition. Perfection is unattainable for us as humans.
      It’s like he’s read all of our posts here.

      1. Hi Caroline, I’m alright thank you dear, how are you? Don’t you just love The School of Life and Alain, I follow them on Twitter. Wisdom all over the place. Yes, I think childhood has so much influence on people. Especially feelings of ‘fear’ ‘guilt’ and ‘unsafety’ I think.

        “We unconsciously reference the feelings we grew up with, and feel no chemistry or excitement without something that approximates them.”

        That Caroline!
        I have often wondered how someone who is abused as a child and knows the pain and suffering, how that person can abuse a child him/herself.
        It is all complicated. My mind spins like 20 hours a day about literally everything.
        Tonight I’ll start my first Filosofy class, I’m scared to death.

        We’ll keep on learning Caroline, once we are aware we can make changes. Take care xx

  20. I would be most surprised if any empaths felt better knowing that their successor was destined for the same fate that befell them.

  21. “It is coming to them as it came to you. I am sure that makes you feel a little better doesn’t it?”

    No. It’s worse. But you wouldn’t be able to understand that.

    In any case, as usual, way over the top. You don’t understand long-term relationships either, and this is interesting. Most people can understand something of other people’s feelings even when they’re very different from ours. You keep acting like you understand, but failing badly.

  22. What I don’t really understand is that these articles you write, which are honest and help victims to heal, detail the horrible things you do, and the way you think and feel. You’re able to be honest with us without manipulation or abuse. You essentially wean us off of our narc, your fan club. You’re a devout narcissist, but you understand intellectually how unfair and undeserved it is to others. If you hate the creature, you seem to also enjoy appeasing it by keeping up your facade, instead of facing it and defeating it. If you were just self centered would be one thing, but it’s not, we’re the sacrifices for your godly pretense. Convenient not having a conscience, but you’re intelligent, you know right from wrong.

    Do narc ever have a wake up moment, when they just stop and think, this isn’t cool?

    Why do narc’s require less fuel when they get older?

    1. 1. No, the self-defence mechanism that is narcissism will not allow that to happen.
      2. It is often a trade off for the residual benefits that aging requires.

      1. HG,

        When you say “trade off” do you mean that the narc somehow accepts residual benefits in place of *some* fuel? Meaning that they can function with fuel – if required? (It’s not like it is a conscious trade off.)

      2. Indeed but it is not a conscious trade-off, hence you have a degree of irritability (caused by a lower fuel level) but more fuel is not sought elsewhere because of the potential to lose the residual benefit of a carer.

      3. Thank-you for your answer.

        But if they have no awareness how do they make this cost-benefit ‘analysis’ …does it just happen gradually because – and I’m guessing here – their continued lack of success of securing a sufficient primary source wears on them? They would have awareness of being irritable…that would express itself in being a complainer, overly-critical or belligerent and that in itself would garner fuel…do they just feel too tired to be charming, manipulative etc..and the act of a carer at least provides low-grade but consistent fuel?

  23. Pingback: Shoot You Down ⋆
    1. LM, same. Mind blown. Don’t hold your breath for an in person meeting, though! Maybe one day he’ll do a public talk.

      1. And there will be at minimum 500 thousand women standing there going nuts!!!!!!
        There will also be 500 thousand narcs wondering wtf just happened????
        Wooohoo!!! 🤣 (ooopsss emoji)

    2. Knowing that he is a Sociopath/Psychopath, would you be okay meeting HG in a dark alleyway with absolutely no one else around, no one knew where you were at, and you did not have your cell phone with you? Just curious! 😊 In fact, I’m curious if anyone, here, would do this?

      Would any of you grab him and start humping his leg? Sorry if that sounds weird, but I just mean out of sexual urgency? Would you hope he would let you hump his leg, or would you hope for him to wrestle you to the ground, and while his hands enclose themselves around your throat, he kisses you deeply, and passionately, as you feel his hot metal rod of steel iron up against your leg? Just curious!

      1. Hahaha it blows my mind that some seem to have some sort of attraction to someone they have never seen and actually know little about who has told them repeatedly he’s a narcissist fully knowing what that entails

      2. Hi Lori,

        It is nice to “see” you, again! I think that sometimes we transfer our feelings we had for our past Narcissist onto him. I’m not saying this is a fact, just a thought.

        Also, HG Tudor remains a mystery. And a mystery can be intriguing. Still, perhaps others dote on him simply because they know some of the things in which he is capable (maybe from watching Lifetime movies, too), and they are grateful to him for not bashing their brains in, and skinning them alive… very slowly. Others might be grateful that he is providing information to us that we cannot easily find elsewhere, if anywhere at all.

        Despite some of these possible explanations, I would not wish to meet him in a dark alleyway, without my cell phone, even though the “wrestling kiss” does sound so tempting.

        But, I would not mind a lock of his hair, or sexting with him, or … if I continue, my comment will be way too long, of course.

        But, I would not desire to be his real life victim. Maybe we could just do the passionate, physical connection, then afterwards, I could run away really fast! I am a fast runner.

      3. Nika

        HG remains a mystery, and for good reason.

        Would I be afraid to meet him down a dark alley? No why should I be? You probably would not know it was him anyway. If you did know it was him, unless you’ve really ignited his fury, I would not think there is anything to worry about. I may be somewhat apprehensive…..

        I would definately not start humping his leg like some dog… That just sounded really weirdly strange lol!
        I would not want a lock of his hair….
        To sext him? No thanks!
        Physical passion and intimacy or a kiss? None of that thank you!

        I just don’t have those type of feelings for HG. I see him more as maybe a big brother/uncle or friend if that was even possible. Anything closer and you risk being used and abused.

        Would I watch the latest James Bond movie at cinema with him? Maybe! Would I have a few drinks or coffee and chat? I don’t see why not. But I would only want to be platonic. Friendly but non intimate.
        I’m not his type, nor relevant cadre, and school of empath. (Though i don’t actually know what I am). But I doubt I would have to worry.

        Maybe it wouldn’t be the case with other ladies in here. He would catch your scent, and know what you are, and smile knowing he has a Super empath in his sites!

        I think it would be both fascinating and interesting to sit back and watch him do as he does. To see him in action as it were. To see him work his magic!

      4. I would hope not, since you are married. If I was married, I wouldn’t even go out with another man to have a few drinks. But, that’s just me.

        And, in my question, I said that “Knowing he is a Sociologist or Psychopath, would you… “

        I was kidding, of course, about “humping his leg”… I did not think anyone would take that seriously…

      5. Nika
        I have quite a few male friends with whom they are like brothers to me, and its platonic. They are friends with my husband too, and my husband and I are secure enough in our relationship and trust each other, to not worry over things like that. There are no secrets between us.

        You would be a lovely wife Nika to a husband I just know it.

        I wouldn’t want to meet up with HG, as he is not a friend, nor do I trust him.

        Sorry for the misunderstanding….

      6. Nika

        I agree with you, I would not like seeing him harm others either.
        I meant seeing him charm someone.
        Yes you are right…..

      7. Tigerchelle,

        Thank you for your kind reply. My apologies for misunderstanding. Yes, “charm”, not “harm”.

      8. Alexissmith,

        Intensely erotic, deviantly mad, animalistic …. what intimacy?

        I would immediately run away afterwards so he could not catch me and suck my brains out through a straw… but, only afterwards would I run away.

        Could he catch me? I would bolt.

      9. This is not a subject I should stick to. I will get out of line, and then I will get into trouble. I will stop, now… it is fascinating…

      10. We could also just talk… about intelligent things… such as him, and his books, and everything about him.

        He could do all the talking and I would just listen, unless he wants my opinion.

        Or, we could just talk through our eyes… because these kind can read other people, he would know what I was talking about without even the need for me to speak a word.

      11. Even in Consultation, if he just sees our facial expressions, and eye movements, HG Tudor will probably already know what we want to ask about, and what is on our minds.

        But, for our own benefit, it helps to hear ourselves ask the questions so we are on route as to which direction we, ourselves, are headed with regard to our inquiries.

        It’s just that his kind know how to do this, I have heard.

      12. NIkia

        Right ? lol my ass would be scared of him lol. I know and fully understand what they are capable and since he is a stranger to me holy crap yeah I’d be afraid lol.

        It both interesting and amusing to see the jntrifye I see here. I like him quite well but attracted ? Hell he could be 500 pounds for all I know. Sometimes I want to scream at people WtF he’s told you HES A NARCISSIST! Just funny to watch is all. To each their own but me ? Id be plenty scared

      13. Is it time for a new boyfriend by any chance? Lol. Maybe try a good guy out, and I’m sure he won’t mind you teaching him some wild narc sex skills you learned. ‘Lay Lady Lay’, Bob Dylan- His clothes are dirty, but his hands are clean, and you’re the best thing that he’s ever seen, Lay lady lay across my big brass bed, until the break of day.. You can have your cake and eat it too. Why wait any longer for the one you love, when he’s standing in front of you “

      14. Interesting. I would have sworn my brilliant exnarc could read my mind. It was freakish what he “read” from my eyes.

      15. I think part of the issue is that the “good guys” who are thrilling, connected and comfortable sexually AND have some handle on how to manage a healthy relationship and sex life do exist, but are rare. I have a consistent pattern of repeatedly going for exciting, occasionally successfully : P.
        But they do exist, the good ones. I still tear up regularly about the loss of one I consider an unusual male super empath. And narcs with their superiority… I will forever compare them unfavorably and they will forever be blissfully, self-congratulatorily, blind to that fact.
        Anyone can prop themselves up on their good qualities and call it “enough” (or in some cases “god’s gift”). Especially if they are quite careful about how to define the measures.
        Men in particular often seem to very much rely on and enjoy definitions.

        A narcissist mistakes need in others for confirmation of power. And perception as reality.

      16. Nunya Biz, ha haha… yaa. Maybe… You’re funny.

        He reminds me of a Furby Doll. Those Electronic Dolls that come in all sorts of rainbow colors. They learn to talk by listening to what we say. They are cute. And they open and close their eyes. When they are hungry, they say, “Ah! Ah!”

      17. I think they can have a way of making you feel like a zoo animal, whether by being observed or being caged. I sometimes wouldn’t mind or at least I could just let so many things pass if there was any love offered there.

      18. Nunya Biz,

        Many things could be overlooked if only there was that love, there.

        This is why so many things were tolerated during the Love Bombing Phase (Golden Phase). Not only did such a great love exist (I thought), but there was also wonderful anticipation, through this magical love, that the potential for even greater things were still ahead, via their future-faking.

        Growing dependent on a love, that in reality is entirely nonexistent, is devastating. 💔

  24. I’m glad you addressed this, HG. I had actually wondered if I’d known all along about his need for fuel if I could have just supplied enough of it.

      1. This is the first Reply Box I can find… here, beneath HG.

        Ya, Lori… scary! To have no conscience can leave one open to committing the most terrorizing acts upon others.

        Kelly, I love this song. A boyfriend would be a welcomed gift. First, I need to learn how to tell the difference between a Narcissist, and a Good Guy. I will listen to this song on YouTube after I finish this comment!

        Wiish, I have heard that they read us very well, even picking up on the finest of our most minute micro-expressions. It would seem like a highly sought after trait to find in a lover- one who could possess such a heightened state of sensitivity and awareness of us, so as to better understand, and love us that much more.

        Yet, these skills seem to be managed only by those who seek to harm, and not to love.

      2. Nika,

        ‘This is the first Reply Box I can find… here, beneath HG. ‘

        I read your comments on FB before you joined the blog.
        I think you are hilarious.

      3. aBrokenWing,

        Thank you. Sometimes, I can be really silly. Ha haha. 🤣

        I did the same when I was on Twitter, and Amazon, too…😊

        But, the times people think I am most funny is when I do not mean to be… then it makes me laugh, too. Ha haha.

        Thank you, aBrokenWing, for your comment. It made me laugh, too.

      4. I am much better behaved, now. Sometimes I lose scope of my boundaries since I had none growing up.

        Mr. Tudor understands. This is why I like conversing with him… because he understands.

        I have a Consultation coming up!

        For a Narcissistic Sociopathic Psychopath, he has forgiven me a lot. He is kinder than most Non-Narcissistic people. I think this is because he understands.

        Herein lies the reason why I adore him: he is kind, understanding, personable, sweet, insightful, gentle, cute, and not fickle. He is like a brick that one can lean on. This is rare for me to have in my life. I wish I had a friend such as this.

      5. Nika,

        Awe, that’s so sweet 💞 I’m happy for you! I’ve had a few consultations and it’s worth every penny! He still scares me a bit (because of my own personal history) but he’s extremely polite on the phone.

      6. Some Chick 🐥,

        Thank you. I am excited about it! Yes, nervous, too.

        I have so many questions that I do not know that I will get them all included.

        I will need to prioritize.

        Thank you for letting me know you had Consultation, too, and that it went well.

      7. Nika,
        I agree, wish that any of the “normal” guys I’ve had relationships with had been so astutely observant. When we were in bed, exnarc would always want me to make direct eye contact with him and sometimes merely a thought would cross my mind, with no expression change at all, but he seemed to see it in my eyes and ask, “what are you thinking right now?”

      8. HG Tudor
        OCTOBER 6, 2018 AT 14:11
        “It is not a case of want, you cannot.”

        This reply to TM makes me inquisitive. I know that “curiosity killed the cat”, but I cannot help my curiosity. Maybe I am reading too much in-between the lines, but it makes me wonder what it all means.

        It causes me to consider that there is more to this reply than “meets the eye”. I wish I could understand it. Maybe it is just my wandering imagination.

        It makes me entertain thoughts as to why we “cannot”…

        What lies within the “cannot”?

        Is it because you would not be able to stop yourself from hurling us into the shark-infested ocean?

        I suppose I will never know.

        This is a blessing!

        I still keep wondering, though.

        I think I will stop wondering and just be glad for the “cannot”.

      9. It is very straight forward. TM cannot meet me, therefore any desire to do so or otherwise is entirely irrelevant.

      10. HG,

        Thank you for your informative reply. I see that I was reading too much into it, and allowing my imagination to wander into faraway lands.

        It helps me to understand that your meaning is straightforward.

        Thank you, kindly!

      11. OKAY, but then… can I meet you?? No… I am just kidding. I know better. I am just playing.

      12. Nika

        It was Lakyn Martens (LM) that said she wanted to meet him. Not TM….I think? Hope you didn’t mind me saying…

        If I’m correct, (I may not be) ….he cannot and is not allowed to meet any of his readers. They are one of his laws that he has to stick to with having this blog. And its for our protection as well as the benefit and safeguard of his legacy.

        There are way too many potential vulnerable targets on here, but he is not allowed to exploit or take advantage of or seek to get to know in any way. Except through consultation, and by professional means, that is strictly confidential.

        This blog is completely separate from his personal life. Its part of his work, and he would not use this forum for fuel in any way. If he happens to get a dollop every now and then, then he will take it of course, but its one way.
        His fuel supply is fully covered within his personal life from what I’ve read.

        The blog is simply a means to an end, his business that he has built up, to help reach more people, and help them through his work, and to secure his legacy. He provides a service to the public.

    1. wissh,
      my most recent ex-N used to comment on my mood/emotional response every time we’d speak. If we were on the phone he’d ask “is that because of me?”. No one who is a non-N does that, do they? In normal life interactions, we subconsciously recognise an emotional response towards us and proceed with the interaction, but it doesn’t have the same significance that it does to a N.
      My N-Mother always needed a heightened response to everything. You could never just say “thank you”, it needed to be a song and dance. My grandma was the same in that regard (she wasn’t a N but was warped by being married to one, and having one for a mother and mother-in-law). She would ask you three separate times for an answer to a question about your feelings on an issue, and three times you’d answer emphatically the same way. It was my normal, growing up.
      My N-sister loves any display of sadness or frustration caused by her. Any display of confusion or fear? She revels in it. Plans it. Looks forward to it. A show of pain is even better, and her smugness and spiteful glee in response is vomit-inducing.

      1. Caroline
        My exnarc could also tell on the phone if my mood was “off” even as I pretended all was well.

      2. Wissh

        Anyone can learn how to “read” another. The emotional contagion strain actually can give the Empath/empathetic person an advantage over HGs kind if they learned how.

        HGs kind are so adaptive to this because they have been observing our behaviors all their lives and mimicking them. Greaters take this knowledge to an entire different level due to their awareness which is one reason why they are so dangerous.

        We all say more with body language and verbally the way we speak actually has subtle cues on which side of the fence one is.

        The first “language” we all learn is body language then verball. We are told repeatedly not to be so sensitive so our focus has now been shifted inward to fit in and not be so sensitive while their focus is still outward,because they are not sensitive, and observing our behaviors and learning how to fit in. We miss learning the subtlety at a young age because of where our focus is.

        I wonder what things would be like if we didn’t have to “fit” in and we could just develop as who we are.

  25. Today I cried for the first time in months. I was missing him. I wanted to email him so bad. I snapped the rubber band on my wrist and it reminds me of the the pain and torture I went through. I thought if I had only listened to him about not wanting a relationship with me then he did. Then he didn’t. The cold, hard fact is he never loved me. What a mind fuck. But I put myself through it. Where do I place fault? We are both guilty in our own ways.
    Great article usual, HG.

    1. Tammy, crying is good for you, it gives relief. doesn’t it? Try to think you miss the fantasy of this relationship that was in your mind rather than him. I give you a big hug. Take care Tammy, it’s no ones fault, nothing is perfect in this world, just try and make the best of it, try to distract yourself by doing fun things and stay away from narcs in the future xx

    2. Tammy

      You are doing amazing. You have come far in a short time frame.
      I do think of you and always happy to see a comment of yours here, your strength is growing keep watering it. It is ok to step back, when you step forward again you will go farther then where you were when you stepped back.

      1. Twilight
        There’s no reply link under mine, sorry.
        Anyway, thanks for your comment and for the empathy links, appreciated. There goes my afternoon!

      2. Wissh

        Your welcome. One way of finding things is you were searching for the empaths, go to google and type narcsite.com empaths google will pull many of HGs articles dealing with the empath schools and other articles with empath in the title. Like “The three strains of empathy”
        The other is using the search bar. I do think I am repeating what was mention in a comment to you already, if so I apologise.

        The only school he has not written an article on, or maybe he has not published is The Contagion Empath. This school is mentioned in the Saviour Empath article.

  26. Mr. Tudor,
    I’m very curious— is there a specific cadre and/or school of empath you typically prefer as your IPPS?

    Please, do tell 🙂

      1. I think I’ve finally gotten the schools and cadres of narcs straight in my head. Would you please direct me to your readings about empaths? I have no idea what I am. Thank you.

      2. I understand that you might not answer this question of mine, but I was just curious as to how is it that you sometimes throw in an “odd” Codependent, as opposed to a regular Codependent? What is the difference? How come you like Super Empaths better than Codependents? I am just curious. This is good because it makes me less of a target to Narissists, I presume (since I believe I am Codependent).

      3. Nika
        That is just a saying. To “throw the odd one in” means you occasionally add one of them. It has nothing to do with whatever you are adding being “odd” as in abnormal.

      4. HG, I’ve tried searching and found The Empaths, but when I click on it it’s empty, the body of the post seems to be missing, there’s only the heading and two ads.

      5. Ya, so I am glad I am probably a Codependent, and not a Super Empath. I will not get as much attention from him, but at least he will not rip me to shreds. YAY. He finds all of you yummy and delicious, but not me. YAY.

      6. Nika-Survival

        Co dependents are not as much of a challenge for a narcissist, HG like a challenge. An SE brings this challenge. Why his preference is an SE.

  27. I would rather you shoot me dead!

    Hope that gun has bullets in it….

    One of the many reasons I even came and found you other than to learn, was because I saw how dangerous you were Tudor, and thought he would have no trouble whatsoever taking an appliance like me out.
    He is a psychopath. No feeling whatsoever….

    I win because I don’t get to be in this turmoil and pain anymore, and you win, because you get a feeling of what it would be like to be like Ted Bundy, and take life itself, something that no doubt would give you so much power!

    You ever had a willing victim HG? You ever had someone ask you to kill them?

    You would give me peace, and I would give you power!

    1. Tigerchelle, please take it easy. There are people out there and here that love you. Please go and see someone to talk to privately, someone who can be of help in real life, a therapist, a social worker, a friend, anyone who will listen. Don’t go away from this blog, unless it makes you really uncomfortable, but make sure you talk to someone and get help.
      This situation you are in now and these feelings.. they will change. It takes time and if you feel you have to make hard decisions. listen very carefully to your inner voice. Write down the pro’s and contra’s of either decision. Do whatever makes you happy and not what society or relatives expect you to do. But think long term. not short dope.
      Take care, go for a walk in nature, it helps to get a clear mindset.
      xx

      1. Tigerchelle you have to get a strong hold on what you let your brain think. Dont let anyone control your thoughts. That’s what will save you. Please do more research on C-PTSD.and take your brain back.

      2. peaches36936

        Yes, you are right, my brain goes off and spirals out of control at times. Then as in true borderline fashion judge ourselves and are our worst enemy, therefore beating ourselves down even harder. The abuser within us.

        I have looked into CPTSD, and I do have PTSD, but it may well be complex to be honest. Trauma still surfaces from time to time, fragments of memories, and the associated feelings and flashbacks.
        The thing is, I can’t trust my own thoughts and feelings when in such turmoil, therefore I have to check with my husband or other family, friends, is this what I’m thinking correct or is it perceived. Because to me it will feel real.
        And with flashbacks, you often revert back to when you were a child, and relive the trauma, and so then you have to do grounding techniques, and my husband has certain things he says to me, like safe type phrases I guess, to bring me back to the here and now in the present.
        Its often a case of me fighting my own self. Then I have the dissociation episodes along with it all.
        It is indeed exhausting and confusing and bewildering living like this. Borderline is one of the most painful mental illnesses there is, and that’s without any CPTSD added.
        But thank you for your comment….

      3. Blank

        Thanks for your response….

        I have thought this through, and if I talk to any therapist or family member, people become uncomfortable (for obvious reasons) and will only try and persuade you to live. Not die.

        Suicide is and has often been in my mind, and I have tried 3 different ways. But I’ve seen documentaries on suicide and it hurts the close family and friends more than say if they were murdered or it happened some other way.

        I want to cause as less hurt to my husband, his family and close friends as possible, and therefore getting HG to kill me would be a good option.

        Someone like HG, as the psychopath he is, can take somebody’s life, without feeling, emotion, nor any guilt, remorse or accountability. He can do that.

        I feel too much, of everything. Its overpowering. Its like torture. I am like his opposite.
        What he wants more than anything is fuel and power.

        The ultimate power is killing someone is it not? I am not sure how this could/would happen, but people die every day, and my life is not important. I feel strongly everyone would be better off without me there.

        He could even write about the experience…. What do you think HG? Would you take my life? Has anyone asked you before to do this?

        I’ve asked other people to take my life, even other narcs, but they won’t. My husband cares too much but I have asked him. The only other option is someone like HG.

        HG talks all the time about taking certain people out, or removing them, so why is it any different here?

      4. Hi Tigerchelle,

        I have been considering if I should post something or not. For all that it is worth, here goes my two scents.

        I have first hand experience with suicide. My father who was a narcissist, killed himself. I don’t think it was exactly intentional. I think he wanted to call attention due to the fact that I was ignoring his attempts to contact me. He miscalculated the situation and by the time they found him, it was too late.

        With that said, yes. The emptiness that it is created in those who stay behind is difficult to explain, and to cure, because as you know, the thing about death is that it cannot be undone.

        Just like any other wound, death caused by suicide and homicide are those specific types of death that wound deeply those left behind because more than simply losing the loved one to a horrible death, a piece of their soul is snatched from those who stay. The damage is significant. It is the bullet you asked for, hitting not only you, but hitting all those who love and care about you.

        Once you cross over, there is no turning around, not matter what you find on the other side.

        I repeat this: Once you cross over, there is no turning around, not matter what you find on the other side.

        There isn’t such thing as ooppps! Darn it, I don’t like here. It is not what I expected it to be so let me step over and go back to the “living side”.

        Nope. Once you do it, it is done and you will be forced to face whatever is there…. and I say “whatever” because there are other forces at play that aren’t necessarily human and that hold a significant power.

        I am not going to extend into great details here, but you can say that I have the ability to sense “the other side”. For the good and for the bad. For the light and for the darkness it houses.

        While a lot depends on what a type of person you are, your life plan, your history, very often those who commit suicide, at the very best, find themselves in the same emotional turmoil they were here, add to that, the pain they can perceive that is being felt by those left behind.

        We don’t cease to exist because we crossed over. We are still the same “person” we were while here in this plane, same personality, same disposition.

        Just add to this your ability to see the bigger picture behind this existence.

        It can be painful, and “over there”, you can’t kill yourself further. You are already dead and moreover you can’t kill energy. So, you may find yourself stuck where you currently are in terms of “feeling too much”, just feeling more. When you think you already have the ocean, the existence adds another river.

        Have I felt that I wanted to die? Yes.
        Did I think about suicide?
        No because I knew I would find myself in the same emotional situation.

        Remember: you can run away but don’t be surprised if you find yourself “over there”.

        Suicide is a damn cheater. It gives you the impression that it will be over. No. It won’t. It is the beginning of a whole new level…
        My two scents with my experience with the “other side”.

        I am here if you need me…

      5. Hi Tigerchelle 78
        I have not been on here much lately as I am dealing with my own mental health struggles. I came on here briefly this morning and saw your comment. I know you are down and I know you do not know me as well as other readers here. I have read a few of your posts and you mention you have BPD.
        Have you ever tried DBT (Dialectal Behavioural Therapy)? If you have not and if it is available near you, please get on a waiting list for it. I also have BPD and I am currently enrolled in DBT therapy. This therapy consists of one hour therapy session a week as well as a skills group each week. I have completed one module (there are five) and it is making a huge difference in my life. I am learning different ways to approach the way I view life and the way I view myself. I urge you to look into it. I understand the struggles with emotions, impulses and wanting to give up. I understand the feeling of wanting to die by suicide. Suicide thoughts (whether passive or acute) are extremely prevalent in people who suffer from BPD. I want to convey to you that I recognize your emotional struggles as we both have this disorder. Please listen to what everyone here is saying. They are all trying to help you. If you ever want to chat, I am here for you. xo

      6. Broken rainbow

        Thank you, yes I have heard of DBT. There is not the therapists here in the UK to do it, as I’ve asked. So I’ve got the green book, “The Dialectical Behaviour Therapy Skills Workbook” and have gone through a third or so of it. I also find Dr Daniel Fox videos on YouTube helpful too.
        Suicidal ideation is a symptom in only borderlines.
        Thank you for recognising my emotional struggles.
        Yes there is much stigma out there for borderlines. Its tough! I have PTSD too, so I’m in turmoil a lot of the time.
        Thank you for understanding….
        X

      7. Hi tigerchelle, I was not intending to respond to any of this thread but This comment did jump out at me. Purely to say this – I Am an occupational therapist in a community mental health team, and I am a trained DBT therapist- I live and work in the uk.

        To my knowledge suicidal ideation does not only fall within the predisposition of someone with a EUPD/BPD diagnosis. It can be prevelant within many mental health problems- as relating to hopelessness.

        I disclose this information as i do not want-

        1 – someone who experiences suicidal ideation to think that they must have BPD as you state that it “ is a symptom in only borderlines”
        2- that people who read this blog based in the uk think that there is no DBT carepathways available as treatment for them.

        I spend at least 7 hours of my week providing DBT in groups and 1-1, so to say this is not available in the uk is an inaccurate generalisation. As far as I Am aware it is available across the country. It may be that services where yo live are limited I would not know.

        Your perception of this comment is your own, my intention is to highlight a different understanding of these issues, it is not to “have a go”. I only engage with a challenge shall we call it, when I feel it is constructive or beneficial for others.

        Saying that maybe HG has rubbed off on me, but I’m not a fan of inaccuracies also.

        I do not intend to contribute further to the blog but clearly could not let this on slide for the reasons I have given.

      8. Quasi

        Thank you for clarification.

        I live in Norfolk, I’m between Norwich and Great Yarmouth. My psychiatrist was in Lowestoft. But I’ve seen therapists in Norwich too. I have asked about DBT therapy, and was told there were not mental health therapists to do it as much funding was cut. So like you say, it could be the area where I live. This was within the NHS. But I guess some can go private or try to do their own therapy. I went private, which was helpful to some degree, but he was not a DBT therapist.

        I guess for me personally, and this is no judgement on you at all, but I like to feel like I am seeing a professional, an expert… one that understands me, but also the effects of BPD within the brain. I like them to know their stuff, and if they don’t I would soon lose my confidence in them. I’ve seen many a therapist, and many of them have not been qualified enough in my opinion. Some have even admitted it to me themselves.

        Anyone can learn DBT skills, but to know BPD well, as well as managing a persons thinking and behavioural patterns, having empathy, compassion, and an overall understanding of mental and emotional health, to know how these disorders manifest and why,…. this takes much more skill and understanding.

        I do not like to feel like I can probably do a better job than the one who has to give me therapy, yet that was often the case, therefore, I decided to do my own therapy.

        If I could I would chose a therapist, I would chose, Dr D Fox as my therapist as he is an expert in personality disorders and you can really tell. I need expertise. I emailed and asked him if he would be my therapist but he is not allowed to be, as he can only take clients in the state where he lives. But that’s the kind of person and only type of person I would see and go to.

        I’m glad you mentioned you were “not having a go”….thank you.

        Keep up the good work you do!

      9. Hi tigerchelle,

        I actually really do understand what you are trying to say here. It is natural to want to have support from an expert in a field of knowledge and understanding.

        However this may block you from experiencing a shared knowledge and understanding with a professional who is open to learning about you from you also.
        Sometimes experts can be less flexible for individual adaptations and learning themselves, as they know all there is to know! ( that is a generalisation I know, it is probably best to say some I have met are not flexible)

        However at the end of the day you need to do what feels right for you, and If this is self directed therapy and study, as the services or expertise are not available in your area then that is all good.

        I have worked in mental health services for 2.5 years, I have learnt a massive amount in that time. I was only in this team for 8 months when I met the narcissist, and had not worked with many people with a PD diagnosis, so I have cut myself some slack with not knowing the signs or what I was entering into with that “friendship “.

        I only trained in DBT this year and feel like every module I teach, I am learning and reinforcing at the same time. It will be many years before I would say I am an expert in this therapy, if I ever do.
        I am open and honest with the people I work with, and I also tell them if I do not know the answer to a question I will not pretend to. I will tell them I do not know but I will either find out or work with them in that session to find out together.
        One thing I would say is that everyone needs to start somewhere, experience and being open to learning on a daily basis brings knowledge and understanding.

        I feel that I have the empathy and compassion, you speak of, I am human and relate to the people I work with in a way which develops a trusting and open professional relationship.
        In my view I learn as much from them as they do from me. I value everything I learn from the amazing people I work with and support, they humble me on a daily basis as some of the bravest people I know, and have the privilege to help guide and support.

        I am an occupational therapist first and foremost- now in this profession yes I can say I know what I am doing! And I am good at what I do. OT in mental health is about empowering a person to do all they can, to achieve goals they set and to take responsibility for their own recovery and progress. I do not do for people, but I am by their side.

        I have never spoken of my profession fully or that I am “technically” a DBT therapist on the blog before, as I have been here to learn myself and in relation to my personal life only. I have not promoted DBT or particular therapies for people. I only really responded to this comment for the reasons I gave.

        I work for the NHS, it may be worth checking regularly what is available in your area as there are new initiatives to address the rise in need across the country, for care pathways for personality disorders, so more pressure to put the money back into services like this. We are lucky in my area, with established DBT teams, I trained with 4 others this year to join a team of psychologists already providing the service, so we can offer to more people now.

        I mentioned that I was not having a go as I am aware that you have felt this to be the case at different times on the blog.
        To be honest I also had a can’t be arsed to sugar coat head on!

        If I can give one last bit of advise based on many of your recent comments to the blog, it would be this- To draw the focus away from HG and the narcissists in your life, and return it to you.
        You have many answers already inside, it is more about asking yourself the right questions to hear what you already know. That would also support you in learning self validation as much as possible.
        I wish you well tigerchelle, all the best in getting to the place you hope to be, for you.

      10. Quasi,

        Thank you so much, and I will try my best to take on board all you’ve said regarding therapy, also with regards the blog and myself. I’m glad you have mentioned what you do and how you help individuals, and it seems to me you are good at what you do. I really appreciate the time you’ve took and also the way you’ve addressed me.
        I wish you well too…. Take care.

      11. tigerchelle78

        “HG talks all the time about taking certain people out, or removing them, so why is it any different here? “

        Direct me to where you have seen HG say this? I would like to see this proof.

      12. Twilight

        I was incorrect, in saying “HG talks all the time about taking people out”, he doesn’t.
        I just remember reading that when he is looking into a persons social media, he likes to see who is who and perhaps their relationship to the target. And he would see if they were with someone or close, I think the term was “they would have to be removed”.

        Maybe Index K can better find what I’m looking for, if she sees this. (Its a shame you can’t tag people in here!)

        So I apologise, the fault was mine.

      13. Tigerchelle78

        I know what he said. I actually have read the entire blog and his books. FYI I read anywhere from 400-450 words a minute, assuming something is always a person first mistake.

        Yes when he is targeting someone he has stated “they would have to be removed” which is to either break a relationship up or created dependency and isolation of target.

        When you stated HG talks of taking people out all the time changed the context of what was said to go along with you comment of him shooting you. You were painting him in a different light. This is manipulating, you caught people emotions with the talk of desiring to be dead and HG can do this because he is a psychopath, has no feelings and it would bring him “fuel” to do such.

        I am not the one you should apologise to, it is not my work you are changing context to.

      14. Wow, that’s a lot of words.

        Yes, its called being suicidal, in turmoil and very upset at the time, not being able to clearly see. But I understand your points. At the time I did not realise it came across as manipulating. I am glad you brought this to my attention. As I do not like manipulation. I do want to do this.

        I am sure I cannot change the context of any of his reading though, because I’m just a reader, and us readers often come out with different ideas, based on our own perceptions and views at the time.

        I no longer engage or ask questions of HG within this blog. (I may mention his name, but that is it, as I do not want anyone to think I have some infatuation with him).

        I am apologising to you Twilight, because its you who brought it up. Tudor didn’t. It was only you.

        My husbands opinion is most important, remember?!

      15. Tigerchelle78

        Yes it is, it was expected and I excelled. I compete with only myself and made a game of it when I was younger.

        I am aware of what being and feeling suicidal is.

        You changed the context by writing what you did then adding HG talks all the time about taking people out, then adding the entire asking if he would shoot you. Add to the fact you are always stressing he is a psychopath. You changed the context from its original meaning.

        I may have brought this up to make you aware, it was HGs work you changed not mine henceforth why I said he is the one you should apologise to not I you have not wrong me in any way with that comment.

        HG didn’t bring this up because there is always a lesson to learn, if the teacher points it out how is the student ever to learn.
        He sure as hell is not teaching us what to think but how to think in these situations. It is the only way we grow.

        Asking or engaging with HG in matters you do not understand is one reason why he is here, to keep things accurate and not let things spin off into a merry go round of inconsistencies and inaccuracies keeping so many in The dark. Many are infatuated with HG, you are not the only one.

        You are entitled to your opinion and your perspective of things, Bringing it to the table and discussing things is how we grow.

        You are the only one that decides your path, it isn’t going to be easy. If you truly mean you do not like manipulating your actions will show this.

      16. HG – I am sorry if somehow I changed the context of your writing in some way. That was not what I was trying to do.

        I just saw, a gun, on the pic of the thread and it said “shoot you down” and at the time it felt perfect for what I was wanting. At that time I was in suicidal ideation, and not in my wise mind. I was feeling really desperate.

        I can see that no matter what I say or even how I try to explain something in here, it will be misjudged, or misunderstood in some way.

        It’s not fair on everyone who is trying to learn and get support here. I don’t want to encumber that in any way.

        There is no point to me being on this blog, as many still feel I’m a narc, and whatever god knows else.

        I do not want to upset or get angry with anyone in here, or get triggered and suffer myself too. I don’t want to make people feel uncomfortable in any way. And if that means me leaving, than I’m happy to do that.

        So, I’m out!

        I wish you all well….

        Thanks for any that have supported me in here, it means a lot.

      17. Twilight

        Speaking of inaccuracies….I am not in any way nor could ever be infatuated with HG. I do not even consider him to be a friend.
        You seem to keep bringing that up of your own volition which I think speaks more about your feelings than mine.

      18. If loving HG is wrong, I don’t want to be right. I’m smitten and not ashamed. I’d eat him with a spoon if he’d let me. All of his teachings would be forgotten when exposed to his magnificent charm. I’d become dumber than “a box of rocks”, as Lori said, lending myself to the research of a relationship with him as an enlightened participant of what he is. I suppose it is a good thing I “cannot” meet him IRL.

      19. This is someone who DOES have feelings, “infatuation” with HG. She has plainly and willingly said it. (No judgement at all MB , I’m just making a point). I am glad you commented here as then maybe people will see the difference.

        Maybe people can quit with insinuating me having some thing for him, when I’ve only ever said the opposite… that would be nice!

        So MB loves HG, as many other women I’ve seen on here do too.
        Dr HQ has said she wouldn’t mind a relationship with him or someone like him
        Harvard has said she is his type.
        Many want to meet him, fantasize of him or whatever….

        Yet do they get all this trouble? No!

        All I’ve ever said is I feel nothing for him and never will, I’m definitely not his type, I do not want to meet him, nor trust him and glad I never will, I don’t like him, am not infatuated with him, nor fantasize of him, and at times I’ve hated him…

        Yet I get all the trouble?!

        That just does not make ANY sense!

      20. You are unable to see the reason why you get “all the trouble” it is nothing to do with your engagement with me.

      21. That’s why I posted it here tigerchelle. I’ll take the heat. I’ve never made it a secret that I’m crazy about him. Nothing to be ashamed of. Some are repulsed (like you), some are drawn to him (like me), some are neutral. He explains the empath’s weakness to the narc. Because of the dynamic here, I’m in no danger. Besides, he’s used to the attention here and most likely in his private life as well. Just another day in the life of HG Tudor. (It must be difficult being so brilliant.) He turns the narc meter up to 11. Resistance is futile so I enjoy him from across the pond.

      22. MB
        There is nothing to be ashamed of and it quite normal to be drawn to HG. I am drawn to his intelligence and I don’t think that is a bad thing.

      23. It’s not a bad thing, K and something tells me he doesn’t mind at all! The center of attention is his comfort zone.

      24. Agreed, K – I’m attracted to the products of his mind…the rest; all good fodder to joke and tease about!

      25. WhoCares
        As long as we are not filling up his in-box with silly love notes, songs and marriage proposals, then I think it is harmless.

      26. K, I’m not supposed to be filling his inbox with silly love notes? Dammit you’ve ruined my fun. I’ll consider my hand slapped by the librarian!

      27. MB
        Ha ha ha…none of that nonsense will be tolerated at the HGU library, besides you don’t want to end up on the naughty step.

      28. MB
        Girl! Where is your sense of self-preservation?!? If I met HG and knew who he was, I’d hide in the shadows and never make eye contact! (no offense HG. I’m sure you’d understand). I don’t think I’d even have to know who he is. I’d sense his level of danger and hide instinctively.

      29. WS, spoken like a good mom! My sense of self-preservation gets squashed by my sense of adventure.

      30. You aren’t alone MB!
        Mine gets me into trouble all the time 🙃 I have to take steps to preempt my own wants & desires.

      31. Some Chick, I’ve suppressed my own wants & desires for too long. They are bubbling up to the surface at middle age. It’s adventure time!

      32. Good for you MB! I’m in the same boat, though I think I’ll fly solo from here on out… maybe a harmless fling here and there (hey! I’m human) Maybe I’ll try one night stands haha Surely I’ll be safe then??!..But I’m done with the relationship debacle. I’ve learned my lesson! I cannot trust myself to see the red flags.

        Good on you for admitting your HG infatuation. He is intriguing, and that voice!….. (thank goodness for large oceans, eh?) 😉

      33. Sometime ago I said that all of us should have at least 3 narc “relationships” going AT THE SAME TIME. No one is primary though. They have to work their narc muscles to be the primary.
        Everyone is secondary narcs. As soon as the shitty devaluation starts, you jump to the next narc. Devaluation starts and you go to the third. Then back to the first. This way you get your filling while the “devals” start, you can let the narcs thinking you are suffering for them (please fake tears, suicide attempts, pure despair) while you are enjoying a delicious golden period with the second or third narc or even a 4th! He goes into deval mode too? Who cares?! There comes the first narc again. By then the first narc will Hoover you back in anyways. Fall prey! Awesome! Make it quick and sweet. Hot and sexy. Use him then dump him. Then go back to the third who will be pissed off at you from disappearing. Hmmmm! Yummy! Adds “fire” to his temper hehehe… And there goes the insane cycle. Wouldn’t be fun? Then you get tired and dump all three. Nah you are all boring. Nah, fuck off all you losers. I don’t like your penises. Get the fuck off or I call the police.

        Get three new narcs while you Hoover the three you just dumped. Send them crazy ass messages with malignant Hoovers.

        They may fall in love. I promise you. A different type of Love: narc “love”. 😉

      34. MB – probably safer to be enamored with HG, at a distance, than your own narc…

      35. I’d meet HG. He knows though and knows why.
        That’s why I was open to a “reader interview”. I never got nervous when I consulted with him.

      36. I was pretty comfortable myself. The funny thing was to notice his narc characteristics doing the consultation. Made me smile.

      37. I guess it is the “vibes” that they put out.

        There is a certain restlessness in narcs that you can sense internally. It has always puzzled me, like somebody always in a hurry to go somewhere, anywhere. They are constantly looking for “comfort”. Now we know … fuel. I sensed this restlessness…. a kind of restlessness that gives out a particular feeling to me.

        HG has it.
        It transpired in his speech, the breathes he took between phases, the way he seemed to “taste” some of the words before speaking them out, the way he said my name, the tone of his voice going up at certain parts of his explanation and then lowering down, the pauses, the speed of his speech.

        I paid attention to everything, even the little background noises.

      38. Kathy Mor

        I understand, completely aware of his mannerisms. Narcissist are not the only ones to do this with speech, thou. A person that is aware understands this “power” of not only the usage of words, yet how tone can affect another person. I suspect he is keeping things at a dull roar vs exposing another to the full effect his voice can have, for the reason the blog is to learn and not a hunting ground. Very few would catch this if they didn’t know what he is.

        I agree with you on the “restlessness” feeling, for myself it actually feels like power, decrease-increase within them. My ex was probably more open with me then anyone else, he explained his perspective in detail and in a way I could understand thing. He never told me he actual diagnosis, it was confirmed after I put what he told me with the label of NPD he had a slight sadistic streak compared to some of the men I have known through out my life.

        Would you mind if I asked some questions of you? We may have some things in common and I am curious if this is the case.

      39. Twilight

        I will say this one time. And one time only.

        Please do not engage with me, unless you have something pleasant or constructive to say.

        Thank you.

      40. Twilight

        May I also point out, that I have apologised to Tudor many times through email, as I prefer to do it that way. And I had lately apologised in last email for any drama I’ve caused on here lately too.

        So this has been dealt with. We are all continuing to grow as you say, and at different speeds, but I do not wish to engage with HG at all within the blog or ask questions in here – thats my personal choice. I can get the answers many other ways.

        We do not need a “second” HG to point out inaccuracies either. One HG is plenty I assure you! Are you like the HG police in here or something? Lol!

        So anyway, yes I will stay on my path over here (with my husband), and you please stay over there on your path (with HG).

      41. Tigerchelle78

        I never stated a public apology was needed, only explained why you were apologising to the wrong person.

        I have never denied I was loyal to HG and his work HERE. Inaccuracies led to misinformation and/or misinterpretation which causes confusion. I do believe the majority here have had enough of this with their entanglement with their narcissist.

        Would you have volunteered to correct your inaccuracies on how you painted HG to be on your own or would you just have let it ride?

      42. Twilight

        I do not genuinely understand how I have managed to paint HG to be my own. And even if so, I would correct inaccuracies, or he would if that were the case.

        What proof is there that I have even painted him as my own in any way? I cannot believe we are even having this conversation or debating such a thing to be honest! Its totally crazy.

        There are people on here, who could benefit from your wisdom and experience with narcs on here, they are generally suffering, and yet here you are wasting your time somehow trying to prove a point (to be honest I have no clue) over some petty things between allegedly something to do HG and myself? I mean can you not see the sillyness of it all?

        If you are referring to the comment I made about the cocktail, then you’ve completely took it out of proportion. I simply said it, out of curiosity thinking: “I wonder what cocktail he would choose, I bet he will choose something horrible, but then I thought it might be funny who knows?” and because he would likely know more cocktails than I do. It was a fun, cheeky gesture, that meant absolutely nothing, like MANY do on here.

        But in the big scheme of things, it really does not matter does it? Why does any of what I think about HG, (or not as the case may be), or what he thinks about me even actually matter to YOU? Why?

        I apologise Twilight, but I honestly do not get you or your thinking or where you are coming from, or why you seem to have it in for me. So you’ll have to think whatever you think.

        You have your opinions, and your views, and that’s fair enough. I do think we should leave this all be now. It’s not worth it. At best its simply petty misunderstandings.

      43. Twilight,

        I’ve just misread that….. So forget that last comment.

        If HG did not want to be painted in such a way, he would not have even put the comment through would he? He has that decision.
        He could have just stated, that he would not do such a thing. But he didn’t, choosing not to comment at all, leaving anyone else to come to their own conclusions.
        I don’t think it really bothered him.
        I think you are putting more onto this than is necessary. Giving him feelings, when it was just another comment to him.
        He probably had no thought at all to it.
        He does not have feelings like ours.
        But like I said, if there was any kind of worry, you can be sure HG would have taken care of it.
        He is the teacher is he not?

      44. Tigerchelle78

        I never said nor insinuated you painted HG as your own. The proof to show is on you that I did such.

        My point has been made, you are correct people can benefit from my experience with narcissists.

      45. Should have read sorry:

        I do not like manipulation. I do *not* want to do this.

      46. Tigerchelle you do not want to die. You want to get rid of the pain you are in, because you can’t take it anymore. I’ve been there.
        And honestly, believe me, I was convinced 100% that I would never be happy again, or at least without the pain and wish to die.
        But here I am, perhaps not over the top happy, but at ease and enjoying myself. I have made changes that were necessary to get out of my depression.
        Make a change in your life, if you feel that is what you have to do. Get a good professional to help you to make the right decisions.
        And if there is no one out there to help you, come over here and stay with me and I’ll try to help you.
        I don’t know how old you are Tigerchelle, but if you are in midlife, trust me, this awfull state of mind will pass. There are loads and loads of women that go insane during this period in their lives. It does get better.
        Please, promise you don’t do anything to hurt yourself. Just keep talking here. I’ll think of you and I give you a major hug xxxx

      47. True empathy, even though you don’t know me, still offering me to come stay with you. Wow! I’m shocked. That’s such a lovely and compassionate thing to say.
        Yes mid life is horrible, and I think I may be getting toward menopausal. Like I need anything else in there making things difficult ey!
        I promise I have not hurt myself. I got very close. I do make myself ill but that’s more emotional damage I guess. Its not damage others can see.
        I will try to keep talking here.
        I had to send an email checking HG does not hate/despise me. He said he didn’t despise me. Not that it proves he likes me, but I think he accommodates me and puts up with me. With many of us, he probably knows us better than we know ourselves perhaps……

      48. Tigerchelle78, I’m so sorry you feel this way! Your life matters; you matter! I know a stranger saying it won’t have much impact but please know that you have positive impact in your life by being you. I assume you have gone through therapy as you have stated you have borderline. I don’t know much about it with regards to medicine or anything.
        I know what it is like to wait for death as I did when I was married to my narcissistic ex, but not what it is like to try to plan death. I am sorry you have gone, and continue to go, through these feelings, thoughts, and pain that are driving this desire!
        I have seen you comment to others to help them; maybe you can look at your comment as if someone else wrote it and think about how you would reply to that person; write it down and post it where you can see it. I understand you don’t want someone to convince you to want to live but you matter and no one wants you gone, so please talk to someone!

      49. Getting There

        Thank you for your support.
        That’s interesting what you wrote as looking at my comment as if someone else wrote it, and I know if someone else wrote it, I would be trying to help them and acknowledge how they were feeling because I know what its like.
        At the time, no you don’t want someone to convince you to live, because living is too painful. That’s basically what you want an end to. I have been trying to talk it out and picking myself up again from the splurge on the floor.
        Thank you x

      50. Blank

        I do not think there are any in here that love me lol, I think I have many who dislike me. But some are supportive and friendly, and compassionate so I am happy to engage with these ones.

      51. Tigerchelle,
        Your response to your post as if it were someone else’s sounds like you would be a good support for that “person.” When we are better at helping others but have a hard time getting ourselves through, sometimes it may just take stepping back and thinking “what if this were someone else.” Sorry if I am not making sense.
        It sounds like your husband is a good support for you. Don’t give up trying to find a good treatment available in UK that will help; you are worth it!

      52. Getting There

        Thank you….

        If anyone of my friends, family, acquaintances even are feeling suicidal, or thinking maybe of self-harm, I instinctively know how to be and what to be for them.
        When someone is in total darkness like that, total and utter despair, they cannot see forward.

        Often if you imagine someone in total darkness, if then a friend comes to them, and shines a bright light (a torch) of shall we say “positivity and happiness” in there eyes, the person (although meaning well) will most likely just get told to go away! Because that kind of light is just too bright, for their eyes as it were. It would actually hurt their eyes.

        A person in this situation, needs a very soft candlelight, that their eyes can adjust to in that darkness they feel in. It needs to feel warm and safe. You have to be able to sit with that person in the dark. To be able to see what they are seeing. I can do this very easily as I’ve been here so often. I’ve helped many a parent deal with their sons/daughters who either have self-harmed, tried to, or they have tried or are feeling suicidal.

        I could probably work for Samaritans lol!

        But then they say, it takes ones to know one…..its true!

        Yes I need to get back on track with my own DBT therapy which I ask my hubby to help me with, because I just can’t seem to do it on my own.

      53. Kathy Mor

        I drink up what you share about your Sixth Sense. I know you mentioned it under another article too. I find your insight inspiring for how to live presently, and for me, how important it is to stop procrastinating. I’ve seen and experienced enough odd things in life to know there’s another world going on besides ours – nothing like what you’ve written about. I just shrug it off because what else are you going to do, I have no interest in developing it into your degree of gift, but I do heed it more as time goes on.

        Thank you for sharing as another of your posts said you need to fulfill the gifts you’ve been given- your talents- because you can’t do it on the other side, this is your only chance. Growing up in a narc family where everyone is jealous, it made me holdback from accomplishing those things or from just being myself. That not only becomes a habit, but it puts a psychological block on me that stops me and tells me I’m not supposed to do or be those things. I have to say this website has been a life changer for me!

        Thank you so much for telling us about your experiences, it’s very helpful!

      54. You are welcome Kelly
        I am glad to give you and others a glimpse of what it is. As narcissism is difficult to explain to those who have not experienced it, so it is the spiritual world in a material state.

      55. I wrote this after visiting an old farm house that an acquaintance purchased….

        “I am haunted by spaces that are never empty. Emptiness that is ever present between interconnected worlds that don’t communicate.
        Sometimes distant memories flow like water streaming into my conscience. Delicate sounds that want to be accepted but that are not good for me. Or Am I not good for it?
        Am I haunted by the waters of the past?

        Who is the child standing behind this grand piano?

        I tell my friend: “Don’t push me by my hand. I don’t want to rush. I have no interest in passing quickly through this living room.
        No, I don’t care about the party and the guests outside.
        This place right here, right now has shadows blending into shadows that remain still and come alive when.no one.is.around. My thoughts become paused as my energy level begins to adjust to this place.

        I see the boy with big brown eyes staring at me. His shy demeanor surprised that I CAN see him?
        I turn to him and look straight into his eyes.
        “Hi”, I think. “Yes, I can see you. Who are you?”
        His eyes sadden. He stares at me quiet. In my mind the very beginning of what seems to be a horrible death begins to take shape like dark clouds forming in a big storm. My heart begins to race. I feel the air getting colder.

        Do I want to see what he wants to show me?
        I step forward. Yes the air is chilling. He is pulling from me to manifest it.

        “Who is the big giant sleeping upstairs?” I think.

        “My daddy”. He thinks back.

        The boy looks upstairs as if this big giant sleeping were about to wake up. “We must be quiet or he will wake up”, he thinks.

        “What do you want from me?” I think.

        He thinks back: “ just that you see me. I feel lonely.”

        “Do you play the piano?” I think
        He thinks back “yes”.

        His hands caress the keys without touching them.

        “What is the problem?” I think.

        He answers: “I would have to suck your energy to be able to play this piano. And he would wake up.”

        I kneel and I close my eyes. “Come and feel me” I think.

        I sense the little boy quietly moving towards me. I feel his arms around my neck. His face rests on my shoulder. He misses his mom.
        The pain hits me like a knife cutting through.
        I looked at the child. I thought “do you want to go with mommy?”

        He nodded. I closed my eyes again and in the center of my mind I saw the light coming forward as a flame. Immediately we became surrounded by white light like a white thick electrical cord. The air warmed up. On my left side I saw the light sucking him into it as waves of energy pulsing in the air.

        He crossed over.

        The giant still sleeps and so I must go quickly. There should be no cues left behind. I walked away.

        Sometimes distant memories echo like the sounds of a flute lost into space. An echo that doesn’t answer back. An echo that doesn’t repeat itself. An echo empty of ego.

        Spirits crossing the great divide. K”

      56. Tigerchelle, the visualization and further understanding your description gave me with the lights and needing to sit in the dark…. wow! Thank you!
        I’m glad you have been able to help others! I’m also so glad you are going to use the support of your husband and resources around you to help you with the darkness and being able to accept more light!

      57. “If loving HG is wrong, I don’t want to be right. I’m smitten and not ashamed. I’d eat him with a spoon if he’d let me.”

        He has undeniable great qualities. I think it is very healthy and normal to be attracted to those qualities. Completely.
        As we are learning here that is not where the problem with the narcissist lies. It is within the meaning of that.
        I can easily be attracted to a narcissist. I just don’t respect the negative traits (AT ALL) and I think the narcissist tends to glorify their negatives along with their positives. Or is altogether blind in the cases of MR’s and L’s.

      58. Nunya biz,
        Positive and negative traits is empath thinking. To a narc, anything that produces fuel is positive because it was successful.

      59. Windstorm, I 100% agree!
        And it is futile. Just pointing out that I really shouldn’t -though of course I have suffered the damage and this is my idealism speaking-
        I really shouldn’t feel bad about feeling something normal just as a con victim tends to feel bad for being conned.
        The odd thing about being attracted to a narcissist is that frequently the narcissist doesn’t exactly even know what they are exactly up to or what the difference is. Cue maternal instincts.
        There is just something particularly disturbing to me about someone using the normal human desire for love and sex, even subconsciously.
        It does explain a lot.
        I find it depressing. The truth is I already found it depressing before narcsite. I always have, I just didn’t maybe grasp how unchangeable. There’s something especially wrong about turning my ability to love against me. These paradoxes are mind boggling to me and I don’t know how to accept them.
        My main point in saying that being drawn to the good qualities is normal, is that I think you have to understand that in order to logically comprehend what exactly you are facing. It is a different set of rules and you don’t have to wonder why it is a problem.

      60. Ha, MB, I have done the “take the heat” maneuver in my life many times. Once had a narc go full nuclear on me when I played diversion for a woman who was clearly at a loss. Fucker. It stuck too- when they are the uncontrolled, remorseless sort they can really take you by surprise. I find most N’s to be at least somewhat publicly controlled, but I can think of a couple of occasions I nearly regretted my challenge (but still, I did not, too stubborn and too right). Live and learn.

        Sometimes my anger gets the best of me and my hate feels black.

      61. Ah wait everyone hold up! I just caught something Tiger said and I want to clarify. Tiger let me start by saying I in no way am like about to attack you just trying to clear a few things up.

        “Dr HQ has said she wouldn’t mind a relationship with him or someone like him.”

        I said that theoretically me or someone like me (because this has to do with a configuration of certain traits, temperament, and mindset) would be in my opinion his best shot at finding his person.

        One might think a woman similar to Vaknin’s wife would fit well with HG but I don’t think so because this type of woman doesn’t really do it or hit the spot for him.

        I have no idea whether I would mind being in a relationship with him or someone like him because there are factors I would have to consider. There are some things that would need to be really well thought out and assessed. I don’t know him in day to day interactions – in real life – off the blog – so I wouldn’t be able to definitively say that. I essentially cannot confirm or reject the idea due to lack of face to face interaction and certain information.

      62. Kathy Mor

        Wow! That is beautiful. Glad that you’re so comfortable with your calling, it must make you feel good to do something like that. I’ve seen things and had things happen that aren’t worldly, but more heavenly not human, and I’ve had signs, and some sort of psychic connection to my siblings.

        You’re not too shabby with the living either! You have a useful message with us too.

      63. Kelly
        Thank you 🙂

        I don’t know if I am comfortable. I don’t think I am. I don’t think one can be comfortable seeing both worlds simultaneously. sometimes find myself in strange situations, stuck between two, three worlds… sometimes more. This isn’t a choice for me. I didn’t develop this. I was rather born this way. I had two “invisible “ friends growing up…

        I have had some pretty traumatic experiences. Some have been witnessed but others were mine alone. I have seen “things” that humans can’t conceive in their minds as our senses are very limited in this material world….

        There are places I won’t go in.

        I am good a giving advice but I am horrible at following my own. Hence why I am here… and why I say I am a white rose with a dark shadow…

        “Psychic” connections are common and sometimes natural among siblings, family members who have a symbiotic connection. 🙂

      64. Kathy Mor!

        I don’t know if this is outside of your realm or not, but I saw something once that was like something out of a ‘50’s sci fi movie. It was so weird, but it happened. I saw something inside a person I was talking to once, sitting across from them, she was talking the whole time. I saw a creature through her, like it came to focus and was just sitting there inside her looking at me like it was normal. It was black, really looked like a sci fi thing, I would describe it as kind of like a big insect’s face, and then she resumed being herself, human face again. I could see it from her core up, it lasted 2-3 minutes, and of course I didn’t say anything about it. Is this anything you can shed light on?

      65. Spiritual entities can show up in any form they want to. Dark ones choose horrendous presentations because they feed off your fear and domination through imposition. Insects and reptiles are their favorite choices.
        Sometimes what you see “in” someone is a representation of what they have hidden in there (consciously or not).

        Demons choose different presentations as well. They can appear in their original form which is usually horrendous as there is a mixture of human characteristics with animals, like horns, scales, strange eyes and the hate that’s intrinsic of their nature. Hate that cuts deep within. It is offensive and violent. It is harmful just by existing.

        Sometimes it is more what you get from it then what it looks like but very often, negative entities and negative human spirits thrive on human’s terror. They feed off your fears.

        Or as sex demons like incubus/succubus can present themselves temporarily in a seductive form. It is not the sex itself they are after. It is the sexual energy that they feed off and the “possession” of the victim. They are very seductive and in spite of the physical pain some people want to summon sex demons because the strong and lasting climax they can provide.
        So, even though it looks sci-fi, it is not.
        Be it from outside sources or that person’s psychological manifestation, these energies are real. They exist.

        I have seen things in people and around them like a black shadow finely attached to the person’s body. At a times it “smears” the air and you can see it moving along.

      66. Kathy Mor- not sure if my reply will make it underneath your post- it’s in moderation right now and sitting at the bottom of the stack. This is the longest chain of replies! Just in case it doesn’t- Thank you for the explanation!!

    2. TC,

      I understand 💞
      You aren’t alone honey. It’s a bad day here too. XO here’s hoping tomorrow will be a better one xxx

      1. Some chick

        Thanks, I’m sorry it has/was a bad day or time for you too. X

      1. Blank

        Do you know, I don’t think anyone has ever asked me that in here. It was so nice to see it. Truly it was. Thank you for even caring!

        Sorry for delay, but needed to get my head back into a reasonable degree of sanity again, before I come here.

        So I’m surviving…. I think we shall leave it there.

        How are you Blank? Are you doing OK?

    3. Tigerchelle,

      In my above comment, my spellwrecker changed Sociopath to Sociologist. I just noticed.

      Also, I said what I said about the marriage thing because… it’s a long story. But, sometimes I forget that my marriage was not …well, there was a lot of brainwashing, and I forget that it was not normal.

      Sorry, I get mixed up, sometimes, in what is normal behavior, and what was part of the brainwashing.

      In fact, I do not think any of this comment is making much sense. I just didn’t mean to come off as judgmental, and when I reread my comment, it sounded that way.

      1. Nika

        Do not worry yourself, and I understand.

        Thank you for saying though, and I’m sorry if my comments ever come across weird or judgemental. Please let me take this opportunity to reassure you I would never want to judge you.

        xx

    4. Kathy Mor

      I’m so relieved that you know what I saw, and for the explanation of it. So many masks walking around! She’s my sister. She portrays sweetness and kindness and wears her church on her sleeve, but I know her, and I remember when she began donning her mask, I know the jealousy and temper she hides fairly successfully. We get along with each other, and this won’t change that, not that we ever see each other much. I saw that entity in her years ago, and it’s not the only strange experience I’ve had with her.

      My mother and brother were narcissists, but I’m not sure what my sister is. She’s different from them, but I wasn’t so much affected by her growing up. It’s on my todo list to put together the pieces to her puzzle.

      1. I just wanted to add that I think a lot of damage was done in my family before I was born- 5 years after my sister. In an old home movie, I’m age 1 walking on over to the Christmas tree pulling a doll out of its crib, while my brother and sister, side by side, were slowly walking, cautiously, like they needed permission, they weren’t racing toward what Santa brought. Very telling now. As bad as it was for me, it must have been much worse for them.

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