The Golden Period


The Golden Period is that period when all is wonderful between us and our victims. This is the illusory mask that is donned in order to draw you in, bind you to us, embed you and then continue to savour the positive fuel that you pump out. Of course most people recognise that this is relevant with regards to the romantic relationship between the narcissist and the Intimate Partner Primary Source (“IPPS”). Certainly, this is the most intense, most intoxicating and most addictive of the golden periods, but the golden period applies to all appliances that we interact with. How does that manifest and how long are these golden periods?
Let us commence with the tertiary source. There are essentially two types of tertiary source. There is the Sporadic Tertiary Source (“STS”) and the Frequent Tertiary Source (“FTS”). The STS is somebody that we interact with just the once or perhaps more than once but not very often. So that could be somebody who we get in a lift with or who occasionally serves us when we go to a particular restaurant every few months. We do not know one another and therefore this person is a Tertiary Source however our engagement with them is always benign. They smile at us, do something helpful for us, compliment us, speak to us in an interested way and so forth. In that instant, the interaction may only be for thirty seconds or so, but that is a golden period. It is brief, very brief but nevertheless because we have engaged with that person in a benign way and drawn positive fuel from them they have had a golden period. We may not have charmed them but we have certainly been pleasant to them, we have impressed them, engaged with them in a way which has caused them to provide us with positive fuel. This means that they have not suffered in any way and we have drawn positive fuel.
The FTS is someone we may see several times a week but they remain a stranger to us. This might be somebody who we buy a daily newspaper from, or a ticket inspector on the train. We engage with the individual repeatedly and always do so in pleasant terms and thus we gain positive fuel from this person who greets us with a smile and compliments our choice of tie or fragrance, but there is no more to the relationship. We see them repeatedly and this positive engagement means there is a protracted Golden Period but the manner of the engagement remains brief, seconds or minutes at most.
A golden period for the STS or FTS will be brought to an abrupt end if they criticise us in some way and wound us or we see that drawing a reaction from them by way provocation and the provision of negative fuel would serve our purposes in another way, for instance in terms of triangulating them with someone who is a higher ranked source who we wish to impress or appear authoritative in front of.
With regard to the secondary sources, there are those who are Non Intimate Secondary Sources (friends, family and colleagues) and then Intimate Partner Secondary Sources (someone we are seducing who is likely to become the IPPS, someone who is a booty call or a friend with benefits).
Those who are NISSs nearly always have golden periods and those golden periods last for a long time. This is because we exhibit our attractive qualities, we charm, we are polite, good-natured, interesting and so on in order to attract this person to us and once designated as a NISS we keep them in place for a considerable period of time. The golden period for a NISS can last a long time because we only draw on their positive fuel now and again. Thus we may see a friend once a week or once a month and therefore there is no extensive reliance in terms of frequency and quantity from this person which threatens the potency. We may meet for an hour for a coffee or an evening out together and we draw positive fuel (plus other benefits) from them. Unless they challenge us, criticise us, stop fuel provision and such like, this golden period will continue unabated. We will not suddenly find their fuel stale (as happens with the IPPS) and therefore the golden period lasts.
With the IPSS the golden period is similarly extensive. There are three types of IPSS:-
The Candidate IPSS. This is someone who is likely to become the IPPS and is on that trajectory towards being crowned;
The Shelf IPSS. This person is not an immediate candidate for becoming IPPS (but that might change in the future) but they are used for fuel on an intermittent basis. Whilst the IPPS is devalued we will spend time with the Shelf IPSS even though we know they are not going to be the new IPPS, but their fuel etc remains of considerable use and interest to us, they may be used to triangulate with the IPPS (or other IPSSs);
The Dirty Little Secret IPSS. See more here  Dirty Little Secret

If the person is a clear prospect for IPPS then this candidate will experience the full effect of the illusory seduction as they are drawn into our world and treated like a king or queen. The various seductive manipulations will be deployed to create this magical wonderland where the most perfect love resides. This is the intoxicating, whirlwind seduction where the love-bombing abounds. Once this candidate IPSS is embedded as the IPPS the golden period continues.
Sometimes the IPSS does not secure the promotion but as I have written elsewhere there is no need to devalue this person. This person is a Shelf IPSS. Their fuel remains excellent but they are not quite right. This may  change and they are promoted in the future, or it may not and they remain an IPSS for a long time, picked up and put down when we decide. Thus if an IPSS accepts this role they will experience a long golden period. Yes, there will be periods when they will not hear from us and they have been placed on the shelf but this is not devaluation.
The fuel from an IPSS similarly does not become stale because they are engaged with intermittently by us. The pattern of engagement may be a weekend together and then nothing for a fortnight. It might be a week away together and then nothing for a month.
With the Dirty Little Secret IPSS the engagement is likely to be an hour in the evening or the occasional afternoon but usually once a week, sometimes more. The time together is not long but there is a greater frequency than that of the Shelf IPSS.
With all three of these IPSSs they experience significant golden periods.
The Candidate IPSS has an intense golden period which may be a number of weeks before they then become an IPPS and the golden period for that appliance is applicable;
The Shelf IPSS can have a golden period for years and years;
The Dirty Little Secret IPSS can have a golden period for years and years.
The Golden Periods for the Shelf and Dirty Little Secret IPSS is not as intense as that for the Candidate (nor the IPPS see below) but it remains addictive. The victim is treated well, future-faked a lot, given comfort crumbs, taken places, confided in, bought gifts and so forth.The narcissist recognises the value of these type of IPSSs and wishes to maintain them. If the IPSS challenges the narcissist, for instance wants the narcissist to spend more time with them, or threatens to expose their affair to the IPPS, the narcissist will devalue but does so in order to bring that person back into line. If they respond then the golden period is restored immediately. If not, the malfunctioning IPSS will be dis-engaged with and somebody else sought for the role.
The Golden Period for the IPPS is that which most people are familiar with. The Golden Period for the IPPS commences when they are a Candidates IPSS and once they have been embedded they continue to enjoy the fruits of the narcissist’s largesse. The golden period for the IPPS is the one which creates the truly magical connections, the dizzying delight and wondrous magnificence which becomes addictive. The Golden Period for the IPPS will last from months to years dependent on how long their positive fuel is potent enough, frequent enough and supplied in the desired quantities. A typical golden period will be 6-24 months.
The Golden Period for an IPPS ends because the appliance fails us. This is because the appliance has reduced the potency, frequency and/or quantity of the fuel so that it is no longer sufficient for us and thus devaluation must commence by way of altering the fuel provided and punishing the malfunctioning IPPS. Or the positive fuel no longer is regarded as potent by us because it feels stale. Again, devaluation follows for the reasons just explained. This determination is entirely down to us and there is nothing you can do about it. Devaluation always occurs with the IPPS because this person is who we rely on the most for our fuel provision and is the most important supplier. We thus engage with this person frequently, often live with this person, certainly see them almost every day, talk every day, do much together so we can draw on the positive fuel. The fuel is extremely potent to us and of critical consequence. However, this frequent reliance means that the risk of it becoming stale is very high and therefore devaluation follows. Unlike a NISS or IPSS, devaluation is not a foregone conclusion because of the lower demand placed on these secondary sources for their fuel provision.
Some people who are the IPPS do not experience the fireworks and magic of the Golden Period. Instead, they experience the Bronze Period. This is when the narcissist (usually a Lower or Middle Lesser or  a Lower Mid-Ranger) does not treat them especially magnificently but what they do do is keep the beast in check so that what is seen is not going to cause the newly targeted victim to retreat. The Golden Period and the Bronze Period both serve the function of hiding the true nature of the narcissist from the victim. The full horror is kept from them. The Golden Period goes further and binds the victim especially to the narcissist, it heightens the addiction of the victim, it creates a place which the victim strives to return to (and which the narcissist will reinstate if he or she sees fit) during devaluation. The Bronze Period merely keeps the horror under wraps and there will be some favourable treatment but nothing amazing.
The Golden Period for all appliances is an artifice which is designed to enable us to secure our Prime Aims (see The Prime Aims ) chief of which is the provision of fuel. Whether this illusion  is used for 30 seconds or years, it is still that; an illusion.

422 thoughts on “The Golden Period

  1. Alexissmsith2016 says:

    HG, why would someone who is attempting to seduce you, likely a mid who believes he’s a greater arrange a business meeting then leave abruptly?

    A problem with their IPpS or just trying to make you want them more?

    1. HG Tudor says:

      The runs.

      1. alexissmith2016 says:

        hahaha yes probably. I hadn’t thought of that

        1. Violetta says:

          Business meeting over curry?

        2. Lorelei says:

          Hi Alexis!

          1. Alexissmith2016 says:

            Hey Lorelei,

            How are you doing? I’ve been much less active at the moment. I have a fair bit on my plate at the moment. (Non N related – phew!) how are you?

          2. Lorelei says:

            Thanks Alexis—doing ok. Trying to navigate life again after sitting in a dissociative fugue for a few weeks after losing my mother. I hilariously have four cats now. My two plus her two. I’m not sure how I feel about having four cats because I’m a neat freak and can’t stand hair or dust! Hope you are back more often soon!

          3. njfilly says:


            I’m actually a bit of a neat freak also. At one time here at my farm we had 16 cats at once, which included 10 kittens (two 5 kitten litters). We were having problems rounding up strays living in the barn and having them fixed in time.

            I brought all the kittens in the house at once to tame them. It was like living in a jungle. The kittens were very active at night and they were literally climbing the furniture and bouncing off the walls. I have to admit it was fun. I enjoyed it very much.

            I sleep in a king size bed and every evening multiple kittens would run back and forth across the bed over my legs, or there would be two connected together in a play-fight and they tumbled across my legs on the bed. It was a very happy time in my life. I remember it fondly and never regretted bringing the kittens inside. Besides, they then all became tame and were easy to handle and fix so the litters stopped. They all went back outside after being fixed.

            I just thought I would share this story since you made me remember it.

          4. Lorelei says:

            I love kittens. I fostered a litter a few years ago. The bad thing was their claws ruined a chair. My mom’s cats and mine are declawed. I know people say it is mean but they were already done. Kittens are nice as they are different than puppies because they don’t pee everywhere. I guarantee HG has lived with an animal. He pretends he is so posh—there is no way he hasn’t avoided a dog jumping on the couch with all those girlfriends!

          5. HG Tudor says:

            The only animal in my house, is me.

          6. Lorelei says:

            HG—are you truly unable to recognize the cuteness of kittens?!

          7. HG Tudor says:


          8. Lorelei says:

            Damn HG. I didn’t see your response in time. I’ve been to the post office and put together a huge box of kittens, bows and adornments.. I labeled the box, “Shieldmaiden and HG” and they said they knew you were the guy smelling of Creed and in the black cloak that always peaks from behind the door. They said they know where you are and it’s top secret but the kittens are on an overnight flight. Be there by noon tomorrow.

          9. HG Tudor says:

            Peeks, Lorelei. What you wrote meant something else altogether and I am not that man!

          10. Lorelei says:

            Maybe you were standing on a peak as you peeked. I am tired.

          11. HG Tudor says:

            Quite possibly.

          12. Lorelei says:

            I just realized you are not thinking outside the box HG. You say you are unable to recognize the cuteness of kittens. I guarantee you could tell me which of the kittens in a litter is the cutest. There is always a prettier one! You have skills you aren’t taking credit for—they may not be cute in the way they are for me-but you can recognize aesthetics most people would concur as ideal. See?!!

          13. HG Tudor says:

            I’d watch you as you watched them and take my cues that way

          14. Lorelei says:

            Lord.. You know. I live next to a field and I had to replace the stripping thing on my garage door because a little gang of mice getting in last winter—there was a bare spot. Anyway—inevitably living near fields I had to become a mouse murderer. My cats are worthless, refined, lazy. And cute. And no mice were in my actual house, just the garage. They are almost cute but not rats.

          15. njfilly says:

            Yes, he had the one dog that he “accidentally” lost.

          16. njfilly says:


            Yes, kittens are much easier than puppies, but I enjoy puppies too. They did actually tear up some upholstered furniture by using it like it where a tree trunk, but I didn’t care. Collateral damage. I like to buy inexpensive antique and second hand upholstered furniture, and I replace it as often as necessary. Nothing lasts forever. (Particularly in my house).

            I neglected to mention that I also had two parrots in my house at the time and I would often bring small trees inside for the birds to climb and destroy. My ceilings are a bit high, and the kittens enjoyed it too. I often had to rake the leaves in my living room, so it was truly like living in a jungle. I prefer the outdoors so I like to bring the outdoors inside when I can.

          17. WhoCares says:


            Thanks for sharing.

            Images of kittens running amok in your clean house and over your bed is a happy thought.

          18. njfilly says:


            It was a very happy time. Thank you.

          19. alexissmith2016 says:

            I’m really sorry to hear about your mum Lorelei. That must be really tough for you.

            I know what you mean re cats. I love all kinds of animals really just not their mess!

          20. alexissmith2016 says:

            I’m so sorry Lorelei. Were you close to your mum?

          21. Lorelei says:

            Close somewhat—not growing up. She was not capable of much parenting as I grew up. I was mostly ignored, truly. I now know she was exhausted and had nothing to give. My father was a life sucking drain. I recognize why now. So, I’ve been quite pensive on the matter but grateful for her (somewhat) softening since she had gotten older. She has always been aloof but had empathic qualities. Not a narcissist but not touchy feely. Close—depends on how it’s defined..

          22. alexissmith2016 says:

            Ah Lorelei, it’s so tough when a parent dies. It truly does make us reflect on everything that has gone before us. I’m so incredibly grateful to have this knowledge from HG so that our reflections can be accurate. Hard as it is we can at least see some clarity eventually.
            Being able to understand why each parent is as they are/were is massively helpful in understanding oneself. dissecting what has happened and why is immensely important in recovery. Both my grandmothers were empaths, one I would guess at contagion, the other likely a super. I wanted to spend all my younger years with both of them. Beautiful, beautiful people. Love could not be more real.
            I’m sorry about your dad and that your mum’s ability to give you attention was limited. You’re a beautiful person too x

          23. Lorelei says:

            Thank you. It makes me emotional and I hate that. I hate that she was miserable and tired for so long. It’s generational. Her dad (my grandfather) was a narcissist and sadistic I believe. My dad’s mom a garden variety mid-ranger. I can’t even be angry at any of them or at least not now. Your comment re, the reflection being accurate is essential and correct. The toughest moments are when I can’t pick up the phone. Same for my oldest brother. My other brother is somewhere off the coast of Mexico, and I think he needs to decompress because the weight of much of this has rested on him as he was closest in proximity. He posted a really nice photo deep sea fishing the other day on Facebook. I think we are all coping in our own way.

          24. alexissmith2016 says:

            It’s a tough time for you all. You’re much stronger than you think you are Lorelei. You’ve totally got this xxx

          25. Violetta says:


            People think cats aren’t affectionate, but it’s not always true. I was a counselor at a camp one summer, and couldn’t go on a rafting trip at the end thanks to getting a nasty rash. It had not been a great summer anyhow, and I was sitting in the infirmary, crying like a baby, since there was no one to hear except the kitten. She, however, came over and kept touching my knee with an anxious paw, clearly wanting to help. I cuddled her, and she must have thought there was a monsoon with all that water falling on her head.

            She made up for it later. When I wanted to sleep that night, she kept trying to get me to play. I guess she thought I owed her one

          26. Lorelei says:

            They are affectionate Violetta! I enjoy all of my pets. I’m not sure what to do with so many. The cleaning is not bad if I do it daily. The only one thing I won’t ever have again is a dog that sheds. I just can’t. The cats stay in the basement mostly.

          27. Violetta says:


            I thought of sending him some teeny-tiny Great Pyr puppies to cuddle and love, but if I could afford them, I wouldn’t be willing to give them up.

      2. alexissmith2016 says:

        I had a think about it and it was so obvious what happened.

        He said he had some vacancies working in his organisation. I suggested pantman (He doesn’t know him). I was joking. But he didn’t see it that way. Some Ns just don’t have humour! They can feel critisiced by the slightest thing. He just kept referring back to it. Quite irate. “I can’t believe you were going to palm pantman off on me”.

  2. Renarde says:

    The Golden Period. I call it Golden Time but whatever. Its absolutely as HG says, between 6 and 24 months. Depending on where you sit in the matrix.

    Reaching back to 96, yes, I’d say, it was about 6 months with my exH. But I was the IPPS.

    I was a DLS for another. Lasted a good nine months. But I caught him, with the hand in the till. Became a complete and utter snivelling wreck as the threat of exposure loomed. I was incandescent with anger. Even more so when he called me by the woman he had been having relations with. But until it dropped off a cliff, I was treated like a princess.

    A Lesser.. Truly Tinsel Week as NA would say. Couldnt cope. Bugged out very quickly after promising me the moon and the stars. Ran away to the Middle East.

    My recent ex. 21 months. Again, treated like royalty. Nothing too much trouble. Money is not really important to me but I found a lot of solace in kind gestures. Again, like the other, he accidentally called me by another woman’s name. So, I think the other woman had been raging at him too.

    They get mixed up do the Middles. As they act in the moment, they do not triple track. I know there must have been serious rows between them because he called me by her name. For that to be happening so early on is a sure sign that she had become MASSIVELY pissed at him.

    I do not do massively pissed. Aggression or screaming anger. Because I’ve been taught not too. That’s probably a singular factor in why its carried on with my recent ex for so long.

    I cannot overlook being called by someone else’s name

  3. alexissmith2016 says:

    3. Mr Mid Range Salary Man (narcissist) “All the women in the office want to fuck me.” He is unremarkable in position, charisma and looks yet not only is it unlikely that all the women would want Brad Pitt if he worked there (some may not be attracted to him, some are married and would not cheat) it is even less likely that all the women would want to fuck Mr Mid Range Salary Man, that is his magical thinking.

    a)Interesting HG,, is there anything we can do to rock their world? e.g. pantman genuinely believes he looks like George Clooney when he more closely resembles Jack Nicholson in ‘The Shining’ I would dearly love to be able to make him see he is not what his magical thinking allows him to believe.

    b)And what of the ones who say they’re ugly. I appreciate they are seeking pity and reassurnace from us, but do they also genuinely believe they’re hot stuff??

    1. HG Tudor says:

      a. No. You are trying to break the self-delusion, his narcissism will not allow it. Also, you are breaching the first golden rule of freedom.

      b. No, they do not.

      1. alexissmith2016 says:

        Thank you so much for your reply HG.

        a) I don’t care about the rules this little twat is worth breaking them for. He is not someone I have been an IP with, he is so deluded that he’s amazing with the women despite his incredibly low success rate. I want to break through the narcissism and make him see it like never before. He’s a twat!

        b)That’s really interesting. Well at least some of them recognise what they are.

        1. HG Tudor says:

          A. That is emotional thinking AS2016.

        2. alexissmith2016 says:

          hahah It is. I can’t deny that at all. I’d still like to make him see it though. That is probably the only bit of ET I have left in me now!

  4. Dabo says:

    HG tutor is there anything specific that makes them stay with someone for a long. Of time versus staying with others for very short periods? Is it just because the fuel was just that much in that good that they decided to actually stick around for a long period?

    1. HG Tudor says:

      It all relates to the provision of the Prime Aims and the ability to control.

  5. Brooke says:


    If the narcissist complains about having low energy and wishes that he was with somebody who understood his low energy levels, is this an example of the fuel that he receives is going stale and devaluation is on the way?

    1. HG Tudor says:

      Not necessarily, it may be a Pity Play. Depends on the school of narcissist and surrounding circumstances. Use this

      1. Lorelei says:

        You said pity plays were a form of exercising control—I’ve thought of this as I’d never made the connection. It’s pathetic really. Is it the attention that allows for fuel, that is the control derived?1

        1. HG Tudor says:

          The attention provides fuel which sustains the narcissist and signals that the control is effective.

          1. Lorelei says:

            Did I really allow that in my life? It’s pretty pathetic HG. It’s a good deterrent.

          2. HG Tudor says:

            That’s the way to harness it Lorelei.

      2. Brooke says:

        Okay. Thank you.

    2. NarcAngel says:

      It sounds like a thinly veiled way of telling you he’s a lazy fuck and you’re going to be doing all the work in the relationship, to see if you’ll rise to, and accept the challenge.

      1. Brooke says:

        lol. I’m a IPSS and he picked her over me and now he complains about being with her. Since then, I don’t want to be with him either. So, it’s fine. I am just looking at his pattern for narcissist educational purposes. You learn a lot as a IPSS and if you’re okay with not being with the narcissist, then it’s okay most of the time. The narc confides in the IPSS. It’s been helpful for when I screen out narcissists when I meet new guys.

  6. ohmysassyass says:

    Is that “you” wearing that mask in the pic? Those eyes are horribly creepy.

    1. HG Tudor says:

      Not guilty. (For once).

    2. Chihuahuamum says:

      That mask reminds me of the mask and costume my narc showed me from the movie eyes wide shut. He loved that movie. The mask was custom made. Its ironic what that same mask now symbolizes.

      1. T ‘mra says:

        I never saw that movie.

    3. Chihuahuamum says:

      This costume

  7. Believer says:

    I hope the Golden Phase for SM lasts forever!

    1. empath007 says:

      Believer, your sentiment is very sweet and I love FM1T hugs (adorable I love hugs too) but ladies… no golden period in ANY relationship, with a normal, empath or narc…
      Could ever last forever. That’s impossible.

      What IS possible is for two people to love and respect each other and build a life together. But for the long term… that takes commitment and hard work.

      There are a lot of “normal” couples who have facade to the world as well.

      They fall into a rut not communicating with one another anymore which is a lot different then abuse.. but my point is to say for most couples to be happy long term, they have to actively work at that (or feel completely comfortable with complacency)

      Don’t wish for the GP to last forever for SM. Wish her the strength to love herself enough to not put up with abuse. Wish her the strength to care for herself when the time comes. Wish for her to not forget about all the amazing qualities HG has told us she has and to use them when she needs them.

      1. T’mara says:


        Your comment is beautiful. ♥️ I thought the Golden Phase could last forever if it lasts for years and years, and then SM dies for some reason and she dies in the Golden Phase.

        1. empath007 says:


          I can’t say for myself personally that being in the “golden phase” with my narc was the best thing in my life. I also would have had no desire to die having thought it was real. As much as this process has hurt… I’d much rather know the truth and live through it because I have a life full of lots of wonderful things the narc could never measure up too if he tried.

          As for SM I think she can likely do better then being abused. I’m
          Not envious of anyone’s GP with an abuser … but that’s just me.

          I hope she can eventually GOSO… that’s what I hope for her.

          1. T’mara says:


          2. T’mara says:

            I have a lot to figure out from past trauma. I guess I’m a bit confused, still. I never went to therapy, yet. It was difficult finding someone who could understand this type of abuse. Though I didn’t know the name of the abuse, I knew the therapist didn’t get it.

          3. empath007 says:

            That’s usually the case T’mara. Which is why a lot of us end up here. It’s a clear description of the abuse and why it happens. I also had a therapist that re traumatized me… she suggested I forgive the narc and that he meant what he said, even tried to make it seem I was too hard on him.

            So I went to do my own research and it lead me down this path.

            I’m sorry about your past traumas. I hope you can heal from whatever that person did to you.

          4. T ‘mra says:

            Thank you, Empath007. ♥️ I wish to heal, too, with HG’s help because there is no one else to guide or assist me even though I am blessed with very good insurance.

            I wish I could get a TAR for my insurance company to pay HG for monthly, or weekly Consultations. I was under the coverage of Victim’s Witness, for a long time, and there is simply no one who is educated on NPD Abuse in my area, or even the other states I visit.

            So, maybe I could get a referral from my doctor to have Mr. Tudor help me. I will have to figure out how to ask my doctor, without mentioning that HG is a Sociopath because I don’t think doctor would understand, and might say, “No.” But, if I can word it right, then maybe…

        2. Renarde says:

          Well that’s not a disturbing comment at all!

          1. Tamara Yancosky says:

            Renarde, I am unsure as to which comment you are referring to as I cannot see the particular comment from my end. I am not even sure if this comment is to me, or not; but, it arrived in my notifications. So, thank you! Have a lovely day. ❤️

          2. Renarde says:

            Was obviously aimed at you. Knock it off with your Ultra Passive Agressive conments to boot.

            Wishing a woman that you have never met, that she would DIE in the middle of a GP is beyond reprehensible. Its vile.

            So here you go Ms Have Lovely Day. Take your miserly words and stick them up your fucking MRN arse!

            Never wish death on another. Never.

            Tangle with me if you wish but do it on my blog and not HGs.

            I promise you, you wont get anywhere my politeness of my response on here. So you will scuttle away. Like the coward you are.

            Sorry, HG. Had to be said.

          3. HG Tudor says:

            No need to apologise, Renarde.

          4. Renarde says:


            Thanks Boss. Means a lot x

          5. Tamara says:

            Of course…

          6. Tamara says:

            I wasn’t saying I wanted her dead; I was saying that if she, or any other victim died in the GP, then they’d never know they were dealing with a Narcissist because they’d miss the Devaluation Phase. But, it doesn’t surprise me that you didn’t get my point.

          7. Renarde says:


            How SPECTACULARLY brain dead are you? I know PRECISELY what you said and why you said it.

            Morbid? Much? Your logic is utterly nonsensical as surely as Empaths, we would wish for the best option, that they are never entangled in the first place not the semi worst. The worst being that you are disengaged from then you die. I just thought I’d point that out for the hard of understanding here

            You’re bonkers. Utterly bonkers. And the only point you are making, madam, is an extremely obvious one. Pro tip. It does not involve Death and the Shieldmaiden.

          8. Tamara Yancosky says:

            BTW, just because I don’t feel like dealing with “your kind” doesn’t make me a coward, it just makes me smart. On the other hand, you stalk my comments constantly, from sometimes months, to even years ago. Maybe you should find someone else to rouse your obsessions.

          9. Renarde says:


            You are deluded. You know, I don´t even know you. If I’ve commented before then it’s because you probably said something idiotic or hurtful then. People stalk me, you know?

            As people will attest, I almost died last year in the middle of a GP. Not, I will hasten to add because of him but because of another. I´ll wager I’m not the only person who has experienced this, will have seen your comment and said, ouch!

            Again, you are completing failing to grasp why your comment was hurtful. All Empaths deserve to know the truth for their own dignity. Dying would rob us if that. This is the big empathic trait of ‘the truth seeker’. It is also a trait which can be exploited.

            Funny you havnt referenced it?

    2. Witch says:

      This isn’t personal but it really annoys me when people on here say that they hope the GP lasts forever for SM when they know it won’t. I don’t think you’ve been the first person to say something like that, but it makes me think “have you not been paying attention to the very basic principles of narcissism?”
      Yes HG gives us valuable information but he’s still and narcissist and still an abuser. Time and time again he writes about devaluation being inevitable and people still comment that they hope he doesn’t abuse SM. He will. Let that sink in. Digest it. Accept it.

      1. Dorion says:

        Witch, I agree. I am sometimes surprised how and why some see the SM story as glamorous.

        1. Witch says:

          Sorry I’m a female and so I can say this…
          These are females through and through!
          The way a lot of us think is stupid, we chose fluffy short term shallow gestures of affection over respect!
          Most men want respect over being liked, most women want to be liked over being respected. It’s sad af

          1. Dorion says:

            I am female, too, but am often told my thinking and behavior is not very feminine. I definitely identify with wanting to be respected for what I do rather than wanting to be liked. But I can understand this and would not call it stupid per se. Most people like what appears to embody traditional social expectations and rewards – wealth, status, beauty, fancy activities etc. I know this from personal experience as well because I have been around the so-called high achiever type, high status people in my whole life – perhaps why I don’t feel it is special. What I meant more is knowing full well what HG is and what he tends to do to women… it is different from engaging in it unaware. But it only demonstrates that these are some basic instincts – part of what we call it ET here.

            As far as the information provided by HG, definitely true, even though I personally have ambivalent feelings about secretly exposing a significant other this way, as learning material. It is valuable for readers, but still… I know I would be extremely upset if something like that happened to me and I found out, I definitely would not just move on quietly and could not forgive it.

          2. Witch says:

            Why did I think you were a guy? I think cause of your name.
            My outburst is out of built up frustration because I’m exposed to this way of thinking all the time.
            And I come here and women who have been here for ages (and should know better) still say they hope HG does not behave like a narcissist… hello! He is a narcissist!

          3. HG Tudor says:

            Proves a point doesn’t it, Witch?

          4. Witch says:

            Only because we are able to have a symbiotic relationship over a website doesn’t mean you’re a safe to be around in person. I think reading fuel makes that very clear

          5. HG Tudor says:

            Correct. I make it very clear from the very beginning what I am to people who come here. The vast majority see that, recognise it and use this place to gain information, understanding and freedom, with some entertainment along the way. A very small number think they can challenge me – they cannot. A very small number throw themselves at me in order to seduce and then whinge about it when they were ignored – what did you expect when you act in such a manner with a narcissistic psychopath ? Come here and learn and engage constructively and you will be richly rewarded with freedom.

          6. Witch says:

            Hg do you get offended when women assume that you have community penis?

          7. HG Tudor says:

            Ha ha, that description entertained me. They tend not to make their assumption, it is portrayed to them as exclusive, the luxury gated stately home.

          8. Witch says:

            So basically they want to be the special one that you will bend the rules for.

            I do think it’s kinda gross a) knowing that you are with SM and b) knowing that you have countless victims before her and also if they know what happened to one of your victims in the 3 that got away, that’s even worse.

            Even if there are feelings there due to narc addiction, I would expect people to reason with themselves and not act on it in this case. It just freaks me out to think that you could probably push SM off a cliff and some women would still be fawning over her Tiffany bracelet and send you nudes like “sorry for your loss I hope this cheers you up.”

          9. HG Tudor says:

            Says more about them than me, I am consistent and have been all through this site. I made it clear from the very first time what I am. That is why this place is unique – it is honest and effective.

          10. Witch says:

            HG I think it says a lot about different things including you. You are well aware your abusive history disgusts me. Simultaneously, I am disturbed by the behaviour of some of your female followers, including believing that SM is lucky to be with a narcissist because she is receiving designer gifts or the fact that they come on to you sexually as soon as they are informed that your current GF has been devalued. Also that they take their delusional fantasies that you will replace your GF with them seriously. And that they have no sense of loyalty or sisterhood with your victims.
            But I guess this is why generally get on better with lesbians.

          11. HG Tudor says:

            1. My behaviour. Understandable.
            2. SM being lucky. A matter of perspective. Being lucky purely down to designer gifts, shallow yet understandable with regard to some people.
            3. Those that come on to me when they knew the then IPPS (Kim) was in devaluation – narcissists.
            4. I do not see sexual orientation as relevant.

          12. Witch says:

            ahh they are all narcissists, makes more sense now

          13. HG Tudor says:

            Indeed, empaths do not behave in that manner.

          14. Witch says:

            What about a normal?

          15. HG Tudor says:

            In what context, Witch?

          16. Witch says:

            I think I was referring to when the narc women came on to you when one of your girlfriends were in devaluation. And you said empaths wouldn’t behave that way and I’m asking if normals might behave that way?

          17. HG Tudor says:

            It is a possibility, but the relevant individuals I have referred to are narcissists. It was confirmed through the content of the material and the repeated pattern of behaviours.

          18. Witch says:


          19. MommyPino says:

            Hi Witch and Dorion,

            I think that this is such a complicated situation where whatever we say could trigger someone negatively anyway. Most people here feel gratitude towards HG and recognize that they cannot do anything to affect the relationship so the only option that they have is to hope that the GP will last forever. I can’t remember for sure but I may have been one of those people. HG has told us that he is altering his behaviors and aiming for the best outcome for both of them. Currently I think that hoping for the GP to last forever is totally unrealistic. I just currently hope that the devaluation will be controlled where SM wouldn’t feel or notice anything out of the norm of how normal relationships also tend to be less golden after the infatuation wanes. I honestly don’t really know what to hope for or what is possible to hope for. Is it possible to hope that none of them gets hurt? It’s such a weird situation.

          20. Witch says:

            I hope she does notice something out of the norm and leaves. That is the best outcome for her. It’s not settling for a narcissist.

          21. Dorion says:

            Absolutely, Witch. Dorion is just a fantasy name, I got it using a fantasy name creating program before I started posting here. I don’t mind being thought of as a guy for any reason because I’m quite gender fluid and, psychologically, do not identify as female very much. To be more precise, my gender does not matter much to me except in contexts where the physical elements of biological sex are important. But I definitely do acknowledge the obvious sex/gender differences, both coming from biology and from culture/social conditioning.

            Maybe I see it wrong but kinda have the feeling the hoping that HG will behave differently, that this current relationship will be different etc is part of the idealistic nature of empaths. I am not an empath, so perhaps don’t see things that way as often. But it is highly relevant to the narc-empath dynamic – both are prone to idealizing (at some stages at least, definitely in Golden Periods). It is actually quite a likable feature in my eyes, social ideals definitely serve important roles and I, by default, tend to be rather cynical at times with all the realism. Rationality is advocated highly here as a means to recovery from narc abuse but it also has downsides… I have screwed up some relationships with my tendency for wanting to break illusions and romantic ideals, people often feel that as dismissive. Of course, as we see in the way it plays out in these relationships, the idealizing also has an obvious dark side and creates potential for abuse.

          22. Witch says:

            I agree that it is part of the idealistic nature of empaths but it’s wrong and will only endanger themselves and others to encourage that way of thinking. If they can think that about HG then they can think that about any narcissist.
            Reading no contact and fuel scared the shit out of me when I found out HG puts tracking devices in his GF’s electronics or pretends to me a delivery man to get inside their place of work. I was stressed. When I read the 3 that got way I wanted to beat HG arse (no offence HG)
            And even reading about his interactions with his psychotherapists are a headache. To think he can have a healthy relationship is like believing Jesus will return when we’ve been waiting for thousands of years, let it go.

          23. HG Tudor says:

            None taken, you would fail.

          24. Witch says:

            I know, I have tiny hands 😭
            I could as least slap you on the back of your head and run

          25. HG Tudor says:

            You wouldn’t get past my black wings.

          26. Witch says:

            Don’t underestimate my voodoo magic

          27. HG Tudor says:

            You had better change your name to Ray, then.

          28. Witch says:

            Or Marie Laveau

          29. Violetta says:


            Because some readers think, “Well, he may be lying to Se Scyldmægd, but he tells the truth to me.

            Does he? Maybe he’s secretly a nerdy little estate agent or insurance underwriter, not a Daniel Craig shag-alike. Maybe he secretly pretends to like Depeche Mode because it will impress chicks with his New Wave/Alt cred. Maybe he luuuuurves Celine Dion and this is all a cruel trick, like when the MeanGirls of Middle School pretend to like a non-existent band or hideous fashion just to see if they can get you to claim you like same in an effort to fit in. Maybe he can’t afford Creed, and drenches himself in so much Axe that people on the Tube wonder what he did with the other half of the bottle.

            All we’ve got are the words. Which are brilliant and poetic, but who knows who’s actually writing them?

          30. HG Tudor says:

            I am.

          31. Witch says:


            I believe HG is telling the truth about himself and that’s what makes me so baffled as to how anyone can believe he is a good catch for an empath?
            because he has a posh accent and money? …well everyone has different standards I guess

          32. Dorion says:

            Yes, painted white does not seem to suit HG well, despite (I recall reading somewhere) it’s being his favorite color. If the words in this article are true, at least readers and HG’s customers here (as tertiary sources) are much less likely to be devalued. Unless they are perceived as MRNs.

          33. njfilly says:


            If Mr. HG Tudor is pretending to like Depeche Mode in order to impress chicks I would say he is seriously misguided and not using his logical thinking.

          34. HG Tudor says:

            Mr Tudor is not pretending. In the next Q&A you can ask me anything you like about DM and I will blow you away with my knowledge.

          35. njfilly says:

            So it’s a fact that you like Depeche Mode. I think that might be worse than a misguided pretense, and is possibly your biggest fault.

            However, due to my high admiration for you, I will listen again to Depeche Mode and try to understand their appeal.

            My only question to you about Depeche Mode would be “why?”

          36. HG Tudor says:

            To which I reply, why not?

          37. njfilly says:

            Because they suck.

            I will listen again and reassess.

          38. HG Tudor says:

            Tens of millions of record sales is evidence to the contrary

          39. njfilly says:

            I love when you correct me.

          40. HG Tudor says:

            Keep criticising DM and you’ll have much to love!

          41. njfilly says:

            I will again, soon.

            So we have found another beneficiary of your loyalty.

          42. Dorion says:

            Ooooh, is it hard to understand why people like DM? One of my favorites ever, too. I was quite a fanatic for a few years in my teens and it’s one of the rare bands I’ve followed through decades. My why: musical talent, uniqueness, interesting and compatible style/world views. Surely subjective as I remember my parents hated having to listen to them all the time in our home but they put up with it.

          43. Violetta says:

            His accent isn’t that posh. I can hear the North Country vowels underneath the RP: the “u” in “up” and “understand” are like the vowel in the American “put.” I happen to like that, but then I think Londoners Talk Funny.

            My first visit to the UK (a research trip), I was staying in a B&B in St. Pancras. I was jetlagged and spacy, and found that I had to ask locals for directions three times before they understood where I wanted to go. Then they had to answer three times before I understood how to get there. I was relieved when I encountered French or Spanish tourists, because even though I’m not a fluent speaker in either, I could at least communicate.

            One night I was sitting in my B&B watching the news. A sportscaster came on, and I suddenly realized I had no idea what he was describing: cricket? rugby? dwarf-tossing?

            Tears rolled down my cheeks. I was stranded in a foreign country and I didn’t know the language.

            Then a news story had interviews with some people affected by the railway strike in Leeds. I understood every word, and didn’t even perceive much of an accent.

            I could have kissed every one of them.

          44. Witch says:

            I’m a chav so to me he is posh. I say “arks” instead of “ask” 😆

          45. Violetta says:


            Do you really dislike DM that much, or are you just trying to get attention? “Yes, Professor Snape, I was saucy in Potions Class. Wut you gonna do abaht it?”

            I was more into punk, grunge, and some metal than synth, so my liking doesn’t even approach HG’s. Their first big hit here, “People Are People,” seemed to have a stronger verse than chorus; if you can’t balance them, I think the chorus needs to be stronger (i.e., the B-52’s “Good Stuff”). Where they blew me away was “Personal Jesus”; that was an instant classic.

            The stuff on Violator got the biggest airplay here, but HG could undoubtedly advise you on the songs that were hits elsewhere or “deep cuts” that only hardcore fans would be familiar with.

          46. Dorion says:


            Perhaps because half of the Londoners are foreign immigrants, or just people with all sorts of origins living there? I was one of them for a while in the past. A few French and Spanish tourists may have a better British accent than some of those locals.

          47. njfilly says:


            In answer to your question, both.

            My initial assessment of DM was that the music had that new wave computer generated sound that is not my style, but I didn’t listen for long. I intend to listen more and reassess as I said.

            I enjoy being corrected by Mr. HG Tudor.

          48. Dorion says:

            On DM – I have had the impression HG sometimes borrows DM song or album titles for articles. I can’t imagine anyone but a true fan would do that. And some are not songs most of the general population, who only skimmed through their work, would know. Some of these were the first indications making me think HG might be a DM fan, before even reading any of his confirmations (one of the confirmations was his answer to I question I asked on the blog). Am I delusional, HG? I am also absolutely not surprised at liking of DM – the whole style, including images posted with the articles, fit someone inclined to be fond of that sort of music. Maybe just for me, because I relate to the style and style preferences.

          49. Violetta says:


            We didn’t speak English. I saw a couple carrying a guidebook with “Londres” on the cover, figured they were French, and said, “Mon carte n’est pas bien. Savez-vois ou est—?”

            They answered me in Spanish, so I said, “Mi carta no esta buen. Donde esta–?”

            Their map showed the small side street I was looking for, which didn’t appear on mine.

            I mangled noun genders and “mapa” fit the context better than “carta,” but we were able to talk.

          50. HG Tudor says:

            This must have been a long time ago

          51. Violetta says:

            First visit was in ’02. Now I could do it all on a cell phone.

          52. Violetta says:

            Lesbians can be just as bad. Most lesbians in theatre are techies, particularly stage managers, while het women and gay men tend to be actors, but I’ve worked with at least two lesbian directors and one bi female director. The first lesbian director was awesome, but the second and the bi were both pay-to-play types. You want access to parts? They get access to your parts. They don’t spell it out like that, but you can see who gets all the leads.

            If you won’t go along with it, they will not only not give you decent roles, but they everything they can to destroy your confidence. I did one summer season with a director like that, and by fall I was frantically auditioning for every production I could, even grad school one-off scene nights, just to get the taste out of my mouth. By that time, I had a pretty solid resume for a non-Equity performer, but she still managed to make me doubt myself. God only knows what she could do to an actress just starting some credits and some confidence.

            Narciness knows neither gender nor orientation.

          53. Witch says:

            Oh yeah I know them ones! I would feel no way snitching on them to police and I have a mousey face and look younger than what I am so once I start crying everyone feels sorry for me as I look like a poor orphan child

          54. njfilly says:


            Due to the context of your comment it’s probably not a good idea to explain what you were forced to do with the phrase “just to get the taste out of my mouth”. (Just kidding).

      2. Lorelei says:

        The other thing too—it’s not really any of my business who HG is involved with or how he conducts himself. His information is essential and correct. That’s what matters.

        1. Sweetest Perfection says:

          Njfilly, ironically, HG’s devotion to DM is actually what I would consider a redeeming quality in him. We have discussed a little DM during a consultation, though I won’t reveal the content because it’s confidential of course -not that it was anything secret anyway, but those are the rules- but I can confirm he’s not faking it, and I can also attest to HG’s words that he knows a lot about the band and the music. And so do I. We couldn’t have a contest though because there can only be a winner, and we all know who that is already.

          1. njfilly says:

            Sweet Pea:

            I agree that loyalty is a good quality.

            If I have a consultation with Mr. HG Tudor, DM will be the last thing I will want to discuss.

            Yes, we know who would win that contest. I believe him that he know a lot about the band and music.

          2. Sweetest Perfection says:

            Njfilly, it actually was the last thing we discussed. You can’t talk about an UL for a whole hour, you need to fill in the gap with something as there’s not much substance to discuss hahaha!

          3. njfilly says:

            Sweet Pea:

            Very funny.

            Yes, I assume there would not be much depth to an UL. I think that’s what my father is, but I don’t quite remember. Discussing the depth to his personality would take about ten minutes.

          4. Sweetest Perfection says:

            I could discuss my narc’s personality depending on who he is mirroring at the moment as he has none himself.

          5. njfilly says:

            My father doesn’t mirror. He’s not very smart. My father sucks.

          6. Witch says:

            I believe one of my ex’s was an upper lesser and he definitely mirrored me and then used that to control me by insisting that I don’t change and stay exactly the same as I was when we first met, age 16

          7. Renarde says:


            Oh FFS! Dont do that to me! I thought you meant The Daily Mail!

          8. njfilly says:


            I also thought that at first.

          9. Lorelei says:

            HG—I have to ask. I read Witch’s comment about you pretending to be a delivery man. Where is that story please?

        2. Sweetest Perfection says:

          Witch, I wouldn’t be surprised. That’s exactly the age my narc is stuck to. Maybe there’s an alternative dimension for high schoolers where all ULs reside! Back to the Narc Future.

          1. Lorelei says:

            Sweetest—I’m telling you, I’m starting to feel disgust more readily. It’s a type of aversion therapy. Self-induced cognitive reprogramming! I was briefly taken aback by the most beautiful specimen ever earlier in the evening—but only for a second. He is a tough one, but I keep thinking of the ridiculous behavior. Fired from a job, pity plays, triangulation, sexually inappropriate.. To be honest—I don’t like people talking in the manner he will say things. (Sexually—he crosses the line) It is high school-like. He’s kinda polished with it but not enough to really pull it off. He’s essentially an idiot. There is no way I can go out with him at this point—I would be thinking of how silly it is. It would be like repeating 7th grade.

          2. njfilly says:


            I love your line that he says sexually inappropriate things and that “He’s kinda polished with it but not enough to really pull it off.” I think that’s hysterical.

            Like you, any man I deem to be “essentially an idiot” does not meet my standards for dating. That is standard #1; Cannot be an idiot. That excludes many.

            To insist that they also be free of “dirt, disease, and infection” excludes the remainder.

          3. Lorelei says:

            Yes njfilly. Just five minutes ago he whispered in my ear during a work related matter. Funny the notification dinged on my watch for this comment as he was whispering sweet nothings in my ear. I am glad I’m not the only person that is attracted to and attractive to douche bags. It’s the weirdest thing like ever. I feel like I have a mental condition!

          4. njfilly says:

            I might have a mental condition myself. I’m still trying to decide.

          5. Lorelei says:

            Maybe we need hospitalized and given a straight jacket! Actually I ignored him—I was very busy. He needs to stop bathing!

          6. njfilly says:

            Sometimes, a person can have too much freedom, and too much choice.

            I agree that keeping busy helps. I don’t understand why you say he needs to stop bathing.

          7. Lorelei says:

            So he’s gross.

          8. njfilly says:

            My previous comment was just a generalized observation. Not directed to you or me.

          9. Lorelei says:

            It’s too late because I went to sleep with the straight jacket on.

          10. njfilly says:

            Yes, I usually wear mine to bed too. It makes me feel cozy, or like somebody is hugging me.

          11. Lorelei says:

            My dear—like a weighted blanket! You know. True story. I went to a party last year, it was a hand crochet & wine party. We used large chunky wool to make a blanket and I didn’t finish mine. No one did. We discussed research mainly—it was a professionally aligned mix of women so the conversation was not giggling over penis size or such nonsense (Also a fun time for another day..) which would allow completion of the blankets. Anyway—for nearly a year this half undone blanket sat and my dear friend offered to finish it. I ordered twice the yarn I had in order to make it tighter. I nearly have to put forth effort to lift it! It’s amazing. It’s not the correct color for my bedroom but it lives on my bed.

          12. njfilly says:


            It does sound like a beautiful blanket. Although I appreciate the value of such crafts like knitting and crocheting, and many beautiful things can be made, I never had any interest in that myself. That’s way too boring for me. My mother would often try to get me interested in crafts and such things. The closest I ever came to using knitting needles was when I stabbed somebody with a knitting needle once. I’m not sure if that counts, though. It was through a pair of jeans, which softened the blow a bit.

            I believe I would enjoy a crochet and wine party. Wine can make many things enjoyable. I also enjoy wine and conversation, or even good conversation without the wine.

          13. Lorelei says:

            I can crochet—by memory really from being a kid. YouTube is a good refresher. I’m not creative though!

          14. njfilly says:

            I love YouTube videos. Although you have to be careful whose video you watch, I have learned multiple things from YouTube videos by watching knowledgeable people. I learned how to trim a hoof that foundered by watching multiple YouTube videos from various professionals. I had previous trimming experience, however, and trimmed all my own horses hooves, but I never had one founder in this way before, and I couldn’t quite understand the angle. I watched multiple videos and trimmed the hoof and months later the pony recovered.

          15. Lorelei says:

            Haha—I won’t be trimming any horse hooves! Horses hate me. I did brush my shih-tzu today though. He likes me. I am excited. I have had a dinosaur television on the wall for over ten years and I ordered a successor. I don’t know what we will do, maybe stand with mouths agape in awe. But it means we can watch YouTube or whatever on it! This is so exciting.

          16. Witch says:

            The UL I was with actually became more and more like a boring old man… he even tried to cause an argument with me over drinking alcohol and getting tipsy.

            We got invited to a wedding and he complained to the bride and groom that we had to spend money to get to their wedding because it was in Wales.
            Then he proceeded to get shit faced on vodka because he thought I fancied someone at the wedding and he threw up all over the bathroom.
            I had to clean it up. Make him have a shower and put him to bed.
            It was the most embarrassing day of my life. Everyone probably thought he was a cunt. I didn’t deserve this

          17. Sweetest Perfection says:

            Renarde! Hahaha. See HG? I told you a while ago DM should be included in the list of essential acronyms for this blog.

          18. Violetta says:

            Sweet P:

            But it could also stand for Daily Mail.

        3. Sweetest Perfection says:

          Depeche Mode rules, people! Stop this nonsense! HG, send them all to the dungeon!

          1. Violetta says:

            Sweet P:

            No good, njfilly wants to go.

          2. njfilly says:

            That’s true, I do.

          3. Sweetest Perfection says:

            Violetta you’re right! HG, send them all but Njfilly to the dungeon!

          4. njfilly says:


            I’ll find another way, though. I’m very resourceful.

          5. njfilly says:

            Yes! It worked again!

          6. Sweetest Perfection says:

            But Njfilly, you know what the soundtrack in the dungeon consists mostly of, right?

          7. njfilly says:

            The HG Tudor audio, “Spanked”. Yes, that’s why I want to be there.

          8. Violetta says:


            No, dear, you’ll be listening to Celine. Lots and LOTS o’ Celine.

      3. Dorion says:

        Speaking of music: HG, I would be very interested in what you think of the band Tool. I discovered them only after moving to the US (they have been around for much longer), but have been an even more die hard fan of Tool than of DM since. They are definitely my top 2 favorites. In case you are not familiar, check out tracks/music videos such as Schism, Vicarious, Parabola, Sober… I can’t imagine your not liking some of those. Or their recent album, their concerts… but I won’t say more.

        1. HG Tudor says:

          I do not know that band, Dorion, I shall look into them.

  8. foolme1time says:

    The golden period for the Ipps can last for months and even years.

    This article you should post on Instagram HG, you have some on there that have been waiting since the first week of the start of your golden period with SM, for you to start devaluation. I have never seen such a thing, I think it’s horrible of them!

    1. HG Tudor says:

      Let them wait.

      1. foolme1time says:

        I know you don’t like these HG, but after an answer like, I can’t help myself! Come here big boy! 🤗 🤗 🤗 haha!

      2. Caroline R says:

        I want you to succeed, and then to have to write a new chapter at the end of ‘Fuel’.
        It’ll be entitled:
        “I’m the first one to ever succeed in this endeavour, and here’s how I did it”….or words to that effect.

        FM1T and I have the champagne on chill as we speak…

        1. foolme1time says:

          Caroline, plus a paragraph at the end of the book from SM.
          I am the Shield Maiden! I am the one that brought HG to his knees!
          Bwahahahaha! Just teasing HG! 🙃

          1. Caroline R says:

            It would be good to see SM write her thoughts about the relationship too, and about herself.
            That might take a couple of chapters.
            It’d be a best-seller!

          2. foolme1time says:

            We must remember it cannot come out before HGs book, we must also make sure her book does not sell more then his! 🙃🤣

      3. Bob says:

        Hi HG,
        If you were SM, would you have a relationship with HG?
        Hypothetical question obviously but I’ll add to it so you’re clearer what I’m asking. It would be interesting to know as I feel many of your commenters view your relationship unrealistically and too romantically, and this interpretation conflicts with the advice you give generally. On the one hand you say that your readers shouldn’t be in relationships with people who are abusive (solid advice!), and that are incapable of changing their abusive behaviours, because they have personality disorders. On the other hand, you yourself are someone with a history of malicious and sadistic behaviour, abusing your partners, and have a personality disorder that cannot be changed. No conflict there. Where the “false hope/real hope” conundrum arises I suspect is that you are in (?) a long term therapy programme, have stated that you are experimenting seriously with changing to more “pro-social” ways of regulating your self-esteem, and appear to enjoy a mutually nurturing relationship with your current partner. Hence I’d be very interested in how you’d apply logical thinking in the SM/HG scenario- do the same rules of your advice to readers apply for SM, or not?

        Imagine yourself transported into SM’s life. You are SM, but you have had all of HG’s mind downloaded into your consciousness. You know exactly who HG is – how he thinks, his habits, pattern of behaviours, worldview, history of abusive behaviour, inability to empathise, experience with therapy, willingness to cause hurt to her person (emotional,psychological or even physical violence if that was the most effective thing to do to maintain his self-esteem) if he felt like it. He (correct me if I’m wrong here – I’m unclear on your diagnosis) has a genetic/hereditary condition related to atypical developments in parts of the brain regulating emotions and impulse control; this cannot be changed.

        You’re still SM in this scenario – I am presuming she does not have a personality disorder, weak self-esteem, etc- but SM with full knowledge of HG’s mind and true character, all of HG’s work on this site and elsewhere , and HG’s ability to use cold, dispassionate logic.

        What would you do?

        1. HG Tudor says:

          If SM was aware at the commencement of the relationship that I was a narcissistic psychopath and knew everything about what that means and how I function then she would apply GOSO.

    2. njfilly says:

      FM1T: There are followers on instagram that want SM to be devalued? For what reason? I don’t understand that.

      1. HG Tudor says:

        Because they think they stand a chance to replace her. They are similar to the ones who thought it entirely appropriate to throw themselves at me when Kim was in devaluation and then threw their rattles out of the pram when SM came along.

        1. njfilly says:

          I see. Interesting. Would that be the time appropriate to “put a stick about”? (I admit I had to google the phrase “threw their rattle out of the pram”.)

          I assume Kim was IPPS prior to SM? I wasn’t on the blog at that time.

          If I may ask several questions related to this, Mr. Tudor:

          1) You advised your readers when Kim was in devaluation?
          2) Will your readers be advised when SM is in devaluation? I don’t wish for this to happen and I hope that it does not; for both your sake and hers.
          3) Is it possible there will be no devaluation for SM?

          Thank you for your response.

          1. HG Tudor says:

            1. Yes.
            2. Yes.
            3. We shall have to see won’t we?

          2. njfilly says:

            Thank you for responding.

          3. HG Tudor says:

            You are welcome.

          4. K says:

            Is there any way we can incentivize you to refrain from devaluing your girlfriend, if it happens?

            Like a volunteer sign up sheet in the Tudor Library. We can take turns being devalued to spear SM.

          5. HG Tudor says:

            As you know K, such action would be deemed by my narcissism as an attempt to control me and would invite a form of manipulation to quash such acts of rebellion!

          6. K says:

            Hahahaha…true! I figured if MB volunteered first and survived a Tudor thrashing, then I could man up and take it, too, that way we could spare your girlfriend from devaluation.

          7. HG Tudor says:

            Ha ha, nearly all my readers have nothing to fear here. It is only the odd clown (and we know what they are) who will be dealt with.

          8. K says:

            Hahaha…should you decide to write about the clowns, it would interesting to see examples of their behavior based on the behind the scenes action. N v N is just as compelling as N v E.

          9. HG Tudor says:

            Indeed K. There is a small stable of such individuals who would form interesting case studies for people. None of my sensible readers have anything to be concerned about. The studies would only utilise the behaviour of certain individuals, who many of you are actually acquainted with through their behaviour on the blog, the additional material adds further scope and insight.

          10. K says:

            After your comment on Secrets 19/12/03, I refer to them as “The Six That Regularly Hoover”.

          11. njfilly says:


            What was the comment you are referring to?

          12. Lorelei says:

            Njfilly—K will find it in a minute.

          13. K says:

            Damn skippy, Lorelei!

            Google: narcsite secrets december 2019.

            Keywords: hoover regularly.

          14. njfilly says:

            I volunteer.

          15. Lorelei says:

            Haha—are we challenging HG not to be an asshole? Just catching up!

          16. njfilly says:

            Ha ha!

            “Incentivized to refrain from devaluing” not “challenged not to be an asshole”.

          17. Lorelei says:

            He knows what an asshole is! Haha

          18. njfilly says:

            I’m sure he knows what an asshole is. I would never refer to him as an asshole even if his behavior could be viewed as such. But if I have learned anything from this blog, it’s all a matter of perspective.

          19. Lorelei says:

            He knows I meant it humorously!

          20. njfilly says:

            I understand. You are just being you. You are very funny.

          21. Lorelei says:

            Njfilly—yes and I wouldn’t say such a thing my first week, etc. I just had lunch and I’m gleeful. I was starving to death.

          22. njfilly says:

            I understand that you didn’t mean any disrespect. You are just on familiar terms. I need to show Mr. HG Tudor ultimate respect. That is just me being me.

            Don’t starve yourself to death. Gleeful is good. Are you tipsy? I plan to be later tonight!

          23. Lorelei says:

            No I’m cleaning my house and playing on my phone! I’m not drinking a drop till Italy next month.

          24. njfilly says:

            Next month?! I don’t think I could wait that long! Going to Italy sounds exciting though. I hope you have a wonderful trip.

          25. Lorelei says:

            HA! Yes I leave the third week of March.

          26. njfilly says:

            Well, I hope you have a good time. I’m sure you need a vacation about now.

          27. Lorelei says:

            I do need it njfilly. I like traveling alone on occasion.

          28. NarcAngel says:

            Travelling alone on occasion is one of the best things you can do for yourself. It reminds and reinforces who you are when others are not around to influence you. I highly recommend it.

          29. Lorelei says:

            Correct. I’m also traveling to Ontario when the weather breaks to visit a friend. It’s an easy drive. I have fond memories of some time in Kingston and want to re-visit. I will probably go alone.

          30. njfilly says:


            I don’t really know about your situation completely. I think I have read that you have children. Are you divorced and going without your children? I apologize if you feel this is a personal question and you don’t have to answer it. I’m just interested in your situation. In any event your trip will be an exciting adventure.

          31. Lorelei says:

            I am divorced. I have a friend staying with the children. She is a long standing friend and used to babysit for my oldest daughter. She stays for most of what I get into or travel emergencies etc. I can kennel my dogs as needed but during the school year she stays as the kids don’t have a disruption that way. They stay at their fathers 3 evenings a week. He will (unfortunately) have them for 2 1/2 weeks at one time this summer while my niece and I travel. I do take them sometimes—but kids tend to appreciate different types of excursions and I gear some for me, some for them.

          32. njfilly says:


            It sounds like you have a very busy life. I hope it’s a happy one.

          33. Lorelei says:

            Thanks njfilly. I am busy. I am already thinking 2021 events! This year is booked mostly!

          34. Lorelei says:

            Oh and njfilly—my ex never asks for them more and he’s been “missing” for nearly two weeks since I’ve been off work. He has basically the capacity to act much like a disinterested lesser which suits me fine. He hasn’t called or texted the kids in two weeks. AND the girls want to be here anyway with no triangulation from me. My son likes it there because he is left alone more which aligns with his slight Asperger’ish stuff, but I know this will change. Basically my son likes either place equally well.

          35. njfilly says:


            I am sorry for whatever you are going through. I feel for people who have children involved in situations like this. I’m sure it is very difficult. I hope this blog is providing some help to you. By next month you will really need that vacation!

          36. Lorelei says:

            Njfilly—I’m also totally solo in Italy. I can’t drink too much!

          37. njfilly says:


            Good for you. Sounds like an adventure.

          38. K says:

            You better watch out! You might end up in the Tudor Dungeon.

          39. K says:

            hahahaha…thanks for the laugh!

          40. njfilly says:

            Why are you laughing?

          41. K says:

            I thought you were volunteering for Tudor Thrashing and, if that is indeed the case, then you are a ballsy mofo, hence the laughter. If I am mistaken then I sincerely apologize.

          42. njfilly says:

            I’m sorry, K. I was being sarcastic which I guess you didn’t realize.

            Yes, I was volunteering for the Tudor Thrashing. I might enjoy it.

            Yes, I am a very ballsy mofo, indeed, as well as being badass.

          43. K says:

            Hahahaha…no need to apologize. I just wanted to make sure I didn’t upset you. Devaluation is serious topic and it is upsetting to contemplate.

          44. njfilly says:


            No problem. I’m not easily upset. I will be upset if a devaluation occurs. I don’t want to read about it or know about it. I guess we wait.

          45. K says:

            Ditto. I don’t even want to think about the possibility of it.

          46. njfilly says:


            It’s the most upsetting thing to me on this entire blog. Even more so than some of the articles related to Mr. Tudor’s life, which I find very sad, and what some of his previous girlfriends experienced. I guess because it’s happening now – or so it appears.

          47. K says:

            Correct, we have gotten to “know” her so we feel a connection; it’s an empath thing and it ‘s the most upsetting thing on the blog for me, too. Lesley was horrible to Lennox so we understand why she was treated the way she was.

          48. NarcAngel says:

            I had reservation for about a minute and a half about the inclusion of information about SM on the blog or IG. More about it being a matter of ethic for some and therefore harmful to the reputation of the blog. I think a lot of people are projecting their empathic constitution on her when she may not be that type at all or react in the way that they expect. Perhaps that is why this dynamic is subject to the possibility of a different outcome. Or not, and it will be the same old story. Either way it will be a lesson for everyone. Only time will tell. If HG does.

          49. theletterafterj says:

            I am projecting and I am hoping for a positive outcome. I do not want to see either SM of HG hurt or wounded. It is a wait and see situation and I am apprehensive. A broken heart is a terrible thing to contemplate.

          50. K says:

            Here it is! If you have some time read a few of the comments, HG writes about Hoover by Proxy in a response to Violetta.

            HG Tudor says:
            December 3, 2019 at 15:25
            Remember, most will believe they are a victim of a narcissist and they will look for information about it. This brings them to my work. They want to court the Ultra, gain my fuel, the fuel of readers because they are narcissists and I and the readers cause hoover triggers. The deficiencies in their fuel matrices also mean that they are likely to return. When some are ignored, this wounds and causes them to stay away for a period of time. They may latch on to other forums and this reduces the prospect of return. Of course they often fall out elsewhere so that forum becomes black and this place becomes white again so they return.

            You do not get to see this because either they email me (thus you do not see) and/or they try to comment and the comments are not moderated through. There are 6 of them that regularly hoover. One day I might create a representation of their patterns of hoover linked to their schools so you can see how frequently and in what manner they hoover.


          51. Lorelei says:

            K—we can send an email to HG and it’ll be a hoover. You go first! Actually though—when I read the book on hoovering it made more sense which was quite recent.

          52. K says:

            Hahahaha…you narc wannabe! When we contact HG, it is a Hoover Trigger, the HEC is usually met and HG is always pleasant/polite (benign control).

            But, in order to understand the Narcissistic Perspective, I found pretending to be a narcissist very helpful, so we could “hoover” him.

          53. Lorelei says:

            K—did HG say if MM’s dad was a narcissist? I looked and don’t see it..

          54. K says:

            HG has not stated what Miss Markle’s father is to my knowledge. If I dig something up, I will post it.


          55. njfilly says:

            Thank you, K.

            I will read more of the comments when I get time.

            Very interesting. So they treat this blog like a person in their fuel matrix. I don’t understand the hoover references in this comment. What are they hoovering? The blog readers? I also don’t understand hoover by proxy yet.

          56. HG Tudor says:

            They hoover me or readers, usually me.

          57. K says:

            Correct, when they e-mail HG, it is a direct electronic hoover (the fifth sphere of influence) and the blog is part of their Fuel Matrices. Narcsite/HG or The Reader could be painted either white or black and they will hoover for fuel.

            Occasionally, ED (Emotion Detective) malign hoovers NarcAngel which is a Hoover by Proxy. NA is a tertiary source and she belongs to HG; she is an extension of him so, when ED attacks NA (HG’s appliance), the goal is to provoke HG to respond (fuel), If HG responds then ED has asserted control and superiority. N v N.

            And HG’s or NA’s responses are usually Challenge Fuel.

            K says:
            December 4, 2019 at 22:47
            Absolutely, lots of empath fuel to be had.

            HG Tudor says:
            December 5, 2019 at 09:42
            The quantity would be low – written material and from around 6-12 sources.
            Potency would be low – tertiary sources.
            Frequency – intermittent and sporadic.

            Expectation would be for more.


          58. Lorelei says:

            K—where are the five spheres? HG references them in packages but I never remember what is what.

          59. njfilly says:

            Well, somebody has been studying!

            ED (Emotion Detective); this refers to this person’s name on the blog? This person targets NarcAngel specifically? Very interesting. How long has this been going on?

          60. K says:

            A couple of years now. Here’s a malign hoover from ED.

            elated dahlia says:
            July 14, 2019 at 22:53
            Like, how would you know what happened?
            Unless there’s some heavy behind the scenes goings on.
            I told her you called me Emotional D**k, which you did.
            Everybody knows what you are, NA


          61. njfilly says:


            Thanks. I don’t understand this being a malign hoover. I don’t doubt you, I just don’t understand all this yet.

            So “ED” changes names but keeps their initials?

          62. K says:

            Character assassination by proxy is a malign manipulation and ED is insinuating that NA is a narcissist: “Everybody knows what you are, NA.”

            1. Everybody says…


            Correct; the name change is indicative of the fluid self, if the individual is a narcissist.

          63. njfilly says:


            Boy, you really know your stuff! I guess I could learn more if I ever get around to listening to all those AP’s I purchased! I’m a little behind in matters. I have some other “things” I prioritize.

          64. K says:

            Thank you njfilly!
            There’s no rush, take your time and enjoy the listening/reading.

            Learning is incremental and takes time. Once my ET was reduced, I focused on the enemy without (the Narcissist) and now I am working on the enemy within (my ET), so I have learned quite a bit while I have been here and, eventually, you will, too. It’s been a very positive experience.

          65. Violetta says:


            “Emotion Detective”? Have encountered Pamela, the Ted Bundy avatar-guy, and a few others. I don’t remember this one.

          66. HG Tudor says:

            You really do not need to.

          67. Lorelei says:

            If I recall correctly wasn’t emotion detective the one saying really graphic sexual things on old threads? Like just way out there stuff to you (?).. I know someone did and it was disgusting.

          68. HG Tudor says:

            No. That was a different one but you are correct about the content.

          69. Lorelei says:

            HG—I can’t even repeat what I read. It was so foul.

          70. HG Tudor says:

            Agreed. Then think about what has ended up in my inbox.

          71. Lorelei says:

            I’m really sorry. I know things impact you differently but I know disgust is universal.

          72. HG Tudor says:

            No need to apologise, it was not your fault. I was unsurprised.

          73. Lorelei says:

            A really hot looking guy from last Christmas (2018) sent me a picture nude. He’s the one who could not tip 20% in his head, and I knew it was a “no go!” Pretty but dumb. Definitely a correlation between intelligence and vulgarity. Met him at a sports bar style place. I was so stressed out—funny measure of progress.

          74. K says:

            Was this the thread?

            Lorelei says:
            July 31, 2019 at 11:14
            I was going to keep my mouth shut but holy fuck why would someone ask another person this on here—HG or anyone.


          75. Lorelei says:

            It wasn’t that thread—it was really old and I can’t even repeat what this person said they wanted in a sexual manner from our host. I was physically disgusted. I randomly found it. It was uncouth.

          76. K says:

            If you remember the thread, please let me know. Thank you.

          77. Lorelei says:

            It was composed by Bloody Elemental. Under “I cannot love you more” and the entry was posted on 2/1/17 at 17:44. Starts with “Anyone..” The post, when I read it stuck with me as way out there and one phrase in particular which I won’t quote was particularly over-stepping how most people would talk about sexual activity in reference to someone on their own blog. Granted though—I say some out-there things..

          78. K says:

            Found it. Well, she’s not shy. I am not sure if she is being very honest/bold or displaying poor boundary recognition. Some of my family narcissists were very vulgar.

          79. Lorelei says:

            Not shy at all K! Lordy.

          80. K says:

            Hahaha…to be honest, I have quite the potty mouth!

          81. Lorelei says:

            It was one phrase used that made my stomach turn. Ugh.

          82. Lorelei says:

            K—I’m cracking up. I had coffee with my friend and she is gone now. So, I decided to read through some of the porn supremacy and some woman on there was just nailing me with how awful of a rude bitch I was. I never saw it before! She also got onto Renarde and said she was one of my brigade. Renarde and I rarely even converse as she is not here often! It is hilarious reading really. I didn’t go through it all as I have studying to do.. Anyway—I hated to miss the insults. Yet, they are somehow refreshing this fine snowy morning. Just enough snow to be pretty, coffee with my friend. Kids sleeping in and dog at my feet. My friend offered a very good idea for my research upcoming and she then chastised me with her psychologist banter over something she thinks is a vulnerability. Yet, in the back of my mind I’ll never forget her husband proposing we have sex twenty years ago. How un-filthy are they really? Are they unfettered by the filth that she perceives deluges my life? He wanted me and my friend (his wife) to have sex with him. I said no. It’s never been discussed again. Like it never happened. But.. But.. I mention having a recent liaison with someone and she is asking me about the psychological drive behind it. Is it ok just to have a good fucking time K? Jesus. I’m not aiming for sainthood in this place!

          83. K says:

            Yeah, I caught the hostility right away. Big Red Flag there.

            Sometimes a good time is just a good time and I don’t understand why people think there is a psychological drive behind it. Life is short; indulge your hedonistic side.

          84. Lorelei says:

            I know K! Why is it pathological to want a good time? Jesus. She asked if I felt a need to be affirmed as desirable. Uh no, I know I am not ugly. What the holy F. Stupid questions. If I were ugly I wouldn’t have bothered seducing the poor man! God I hope no one says I’m a narcissist again for saying this. It’s true. I don’t need told I’m anything special—but dammit that no human contact crap
            for several years was beyond enough!!

          85. K says:

            Affirmations or psycho babble is senseless; get laid, get high or get tanked or all of the above. It’s all good!

          86. Lorelei says:

            K—I was so annoyed. Not one person (no fault of their own) was much help as my life crumbled. Right in front of them, albeit slowly and it was bewildering. But.. I was always clear that the marriage wasn’t right, that I was miserable. People just don’t know to ask the right questions—it’s not normal
            to be so miserable in a marriage. If it were why are people doing it? Right?! So, unfortunately explaining anything is useless because you get all the platitudes of “ it takes two to tango..” (and it does—but not a tango like they think) Useless.

          87. K says:

            I am sorry that you had no one/no support when your marriage/life was crumbling, that’s unacceptable and that needs to change. You will get all your support here; most of the people here understand what you have gone through.

            You are correct:

            1. People don’t ask the right questions, some of it is probably due to ignorance.
            2. It isn’t normal (it’s the norm but it shouldn’t be).
            3. People deny the abuse/miserableness in their marriages and stay, that is what we are conditioned to do.

            If you have Danger: 50 Things You Should Not Do With a Narcissist read chapter 39. Deny What is in Front of

          88. Lorelei says:

            K—I’ll read this. And the problem is that people were there, in a way, they too didn’t understand.. Plus my evolution into a horrible state was so slow. I have interestingly, a before and after photo. It struck me as profound. HG has seen it—it was sent to thank him for the work at one time. (A long’ish while ago—he may not recall) The before was an engagement photo. I looked happy/normal. The after was profound. I had gained weight from drinking and my eyes looked absolutely sad and vacant. It was absolutely an emotional moment when I first compared them side to side. But that didn’t occur overnight K. It took years. I’m just glad I worked out why “it was taking so long.” I truly didn’t think I could pull off “no contact” and kept subjecting myself to rude & demeaning behavior.

          89. K says:

            Sadly, many people truly don’t understand, unless they have been through it. NPD abuse is like an episode of The Twilight Zone or American Horror Story. Unbelievable! People need help and education is paramount.

            The before and the after is striking. That’s the effect of the Salami Slicing approach and many victims become shells of their former selves. The Aftermath is very emotional; how could we have let this happen. Keep up the NC and things will just keep getting better from here on.


          90. Lorelei says:

            Yes and yes.

          91. Lorelei says:

            I like your mention of blunt discussions with your daughter—but how blunt is the key I struggle with..

          92. K says:

            Children are smarter than we give them credit for so, if they ask a question, just be honest and age appropriate. They are entitled to the truth.

            We aren’t narcissists so we don’t have an overriding need to control information, keep secrets or twist the truth.

          93. Lorelei says:

            No they aren’t dumb, but where does the line in the sand between certain considerations get drawn. For instance, my oldest does not wish to hear about my ex—she’s interested in less blame-shifting onto him and hearing me take responsibility. The younger kids.. I have to be careful. I can’t say, “Your dad was miserable and made me exhausted and therefore..” Maybe, “The environment was not healthy because the two adults in it were incapable of creating a healthy collaboration.” (In terms appropriate to their age)
            I don’t know. It’s just not going to be me taking a throttle for being intertwined with a Total dick. He’s taking them to an idiotic destination for summer vacation and it cracks me up. He has descended to the lower lesser caliber of destinations his lady friend prefers, and I can’t wait till the kids are like “WTF.” Hilarious.

          94. theletterafterj says:

            My children know all about the dynamic and I was very neutral and logical about it. As I learned here, I transferred the knowledge to them using cognitive empathy. These are some of the things I told them.

            1. He is disordered and it’s not his fault.
            2. He doesn’t know he’s a narcissist and never will.
            3. He manipulates for fuel and he has no choice.
            6. His personality is how he survives his reality.

            HG Tudor says:
            September 2, 2019 at 13:16
            Your Cognitive Empathy is your safeguarding empathy.

            Vent here but try to remove the emotion when talking to your children.

          95. Lorelei says:

            I like this K. I’ve saved it. I forgot briefly how there is a lot of mileage to be gained when some form of compassionate declaration encompasses the mention of the disorder. (The compassion in the statement of “its not his fault”)

          96. K says:

            Good to read. It’s all about perspective. KISS: Keep It Simple Sweetheart.

            It’s a disorder, learn to recognize the signs and protect yourself and your children.

            Everyone is faultless in this dynamic so be compassionate with yourself, too.

          97. WhoCares says:

            K, if you don’t mind me asking, what age were your kids when you discussed the dynamic with them? And did you explicitly use the ‘N’ word?
            I am planning for the future but dare not use the ‘N’ word at this time with my son.

          98. K says:

            I don’t mind at all. My oldest daughter was 25, my son was 18 and my youngest, a daughter, was 6 and I used the word narcissist or disordered.

            Now, my 9-year-old uses the words fuel, facade, blame shifting and narcissist as part of her everyday vernacular, she understands black and white thinking and she teaches her friends. She’s good at ferreting out narcissists, too.

          99. WhoCares says:

            Thank-you K!

            “She’s good at ferreting out narcissists, too.”

            That’s certainly a good life skill for your 9 year old to have.

            My situation is still under much scrutiny so I haven’t broached any of these discussions…but I do use opportunities in movies, and such, to point out manipulations and when there are discrepancies between a character’s words and their actions. Also, my son recognizes there are differences between my behaviour and his father’s behaviour – especially with regard to his dad’s lack of boundary recognition.

          100. Lorelei says:

            I have to be very careful using the word narcissist. It’s even more a licensure issue—and then when/if I actually have a license to diagnose axis II disorders and apply a diagnostic term, it’s a whole host of other problems. I do like the use of black white thinking, blame shifting etc.

          101. WhoCares says:

            Understood and agreed. This is problematic in talking with various professionals who do not have it within their capacity to diagnose or – even use diagnostic language – so you, sort of, have to talk around this issue or describe the behaviours themselves. I have found that some will use the term ‘narcissistic’ to avoid this problem – but here we grasp that there can be a huge difference between “narcissist” and “narcissistic”.

          102. Lorelei says:

            Exactly Whocares—and not a lot of people are qualified to diagnose from the DSM, and if you are you have to have a patient record and then still can’t say it due confidentiality! I can be sued for saying it because I have a license and it’s practicing outside of my scope.. I can’t say it really. The behavior I can describe though. HG is not licensed as a medical doctor because (for one) it would have impeded his ability to function in this way—if his identity were known he’d be open to endless law suits. He would never be able to touch people either!

          103. K says:

            My oldest daughter uses gas lighting, lack of accountability and deflection at work. She avoids the N-word, too.

          104. K says:

            My pleasure WhoCares!
            I do the same thing when I read to my 9-year-old. In the book Wish by Barbara O’Connor, Charlie’s (the main character) parents are bother lessers and I point out the disordered behaviour and abuse.

            Keep pointing out the manipulations so he can learn to recognize them. Children are very smart and it’s our job to protect them and to teach them how to protect themselves.

          105. WhoCares says:

            Thanks for the book example, K!

          106. K says:

            My pleasure WhoCares!

          107. Lorelei says:

            K—did I reply to this? I agree. It is not pathological to want sex or to wish to get intoxicated. It is pathological to want sex with narcissists which is a pathology I seem to identify with! I can’t be the only person here that still finds the lure appealing—a certain comfort in false charm and pompous men. It’s like narcotics anonymous for women who love bad men! I am not sleeping with a narcissist again unless we draw up a contract first.

          108. K says:

            Yes, you did and I will respond to that one, as well.

            You and I are both addicts so of course we want to have sex with narcissists; it is a symbiotic relationship. We are simply different sides of the same coin feeding off of each other (Parasite).

            Fatal Beauty (narc Heroin) is dangerous and exciting and who doesn’t want a hit of that.

          109. Lorelei says:

            K—I have a doi reference for an article I’d love you to look up but have to do from my laptop.. It’s good, found it in my research today for school.. I’ll post soon enough.

          110. NarcAngel says:

            She’s not worthy of knowing or remembering. I hate to even have her name come up here because I’m sure she still reads and her forehead might bulge more than is usually caused by the delusional encephalitis that usually resides there.

          111. HG Tudor says:

            Correct. They all still read. They cannot let go.

          112. K says:

            Sorry NarcAngel!
            This thread is a Hoover Trigger. Perhaps I should have used Aunt Clara as an example.

          113. NarcAngel says:

            No need to be sorry – they don’t bother me a bit. They are as a new piece of tinsel is to a cat: Shiny and fun for a minute but then exposed as dull, boring, and left mangled on the rug destined for the bin.

          114. K says:

            Hahahaha…you are a Narc Magnet.

            When I started posting, I wondered what the hell was going on with certain individual’s malign behaviour directed towards you. Now that I understand the dynamic/signs, it comes as no surprise. You are the competition and a threat to their control so their pathological envy and jealousy manifests through malign hoovers directed at you.

            An attack on HG’s Readers is an attack on HG so there’s your Hoover by Proxy.

          115. K says:

            Keyword: emotion. Good luck!


          116. Violetta says:

            NJ: didn’t you have enough Tudor Thrashing in the dungeon over the weekend?

          117. njfilly says:


            I’m hardcore. What can I say.

            Am I correct that you are involved in some type of reenactment group? I think I read a comment you made somewhere but I’m not sure it was you.

          118. Violetta says:

            HG: I’ll take your word for it. Sometimes they are enlightening, the grammar-manglers can be highly entertaining, but a few have been rather distressing.

            I suppose a lot of them just bore you when they keep running the same games that failed on previous occasions.

          119. HG Tudor says:

            They bored me at a very early stage. They continue to bore me. Their obsession continues.

          120. njfilly says:


            The only one I am aware of was a bit entertaining when he made a comment about coming behind Mr. Tudor then was complaining his comments were not being posted and his emails were not being answered. Maybe that was Ted Bundy avatar guy, I’m not sure.

            Never mind. It was more pathetic than entertaining.

          121. K says:

            evilmuskhat is the Ted Bundy Avatar guy and DARKEST CUPIDO a.k.a. NARCISSUS is the author of the entertaining comment.

            evilmuskhat says:
            December 21, 2019 at 20:59
            What is DARKEST CUPIDO an example of?


            NARCISSUS says:
            December 26, 2019 at 19:40
            I want you to picture yourself having a conversation like this with any other person in a public place, then me approaching your back cautiously and you don’t getting to hear me approaching your back, next, me getting close enough to smell your hair, and suddenly my strong and young hands grabbing your old and weak shoulders bruptly… I want you to picture the end of such successful approaching XD.


          122. njfilly says:


            Yes, thank you. This is the comment I remembered reading. It is written poorly and I find that very annoying and reflective of the writer.

            Do you know if evilmuskhat and narcissus are males? Are they here to gain the attention of and challenge Mr. Tudor rather than learn anything?

            You are great, by the way K!

          123. HG Tudor says:

            They are both male.

          124. njfilly says:

            They are seeking your attention and challenging you?

          125. HG Tudor says:

            Some of it is Pure Fuel and some of it is Challenge Fuel. It is neither needed or wanted and invariably they are ignored. Previously I might entertain myself a little but they bore me very quickly. They of course, because of their need to try to control me (which they cannot recognise) keep hoovering even though they never get any response from me. They do continue to read the blog and often, owing to magical thinking, perceive something which is not there which sets them off again. One in particular repeatedly believes she has been not shown favour like others. It is entirely without merit and I am not going to waste my time explaining the evidence which shows that. However, notwithstanding that (1) There is no evidence to support the allegation (2) I never respond to the repeated provocations, this individual intermittently keeps hoovering trying to gain my attention.

          126. njfilly says:

            I’m sure you must get some very interesting emails.

          127. njfilly says:

            Mr. Tudor,

            Can you explain to me what exactly is magical thinking? Also, what causes it?

          128. HG Tudor says:

            It is caused by the narcissism, it is part of the self-defence mechanism and a manifestation of grandiosity. It is part of the narcissists perspective but towards the far end of the spectrum far that particular narcissist.

            For instance –
            1. Brad Pitt (not a narcissist) “Many women find me attractive.” They do, how do we know this, because he is a film star, he would not be described as physically unpleasant and many women express their desire etc for him. Not magical thinking.
            2. Angelina Jolie (narcissist) “Many men find me attractive.” They do, how do we know this, she is a film star and would not be described as physically unpleasant and many men have expressed their desire for her. Not magical thinking.
            3. Mr Mid Range Salary Man (narcissist) “All the women in the office want to fuck me.” He is unremarkable in position, charisma and looks yet not only is it unlikely that all the women would want Brad Pitt if he worked there (some may not be attracted to him, some are married and would not cheat) it is even less likely that all the women would want to fuck Mr Mid Range Salary Man, that is his magical thinking.

          129. njfilly says:

            Can an empath have magical thinking? What causes it? Is this the same thing as a delusion? Are they the same as a hallucination?

            Thank you.

          130. HG Tudor says:

            No. You have emotional thinking. It is not the same as a hallucination.

          131. Lorelei says:

            I’ll happily take one for the team with Brad. Pitt or Cooper. Is that magical thinking?

          132. HG Tudor says:

            No. That ms just failing to read the comment accurately!

          133. Lorelei says:

            Yes and Cooper is more alluring. And it’s because there is something wrong with him! Go figure.

          134. HG Tudor says:

            It is called the Addiction, Lorelei!

          135. Lorelei says:

            I know, and I clearly suck at the alcohol addiction too, because I drank mojito’s to the point of suffering. They salami sliced me. One minute I was the life of the bar, the next I woke up with “How did I get in my bed?” I never sleep till noon. Narcissists and alcohol are bad. To anyone reading—no I didn’t have my car. My friend drove, she said I was great fun. I’m not doing this again.

          136. theletterafterj says:

            Thank you HG
            That sums it up quite nicely and I think an article is necessary. Every once in a while, I toot my own horn and I was worried about it being magical thinking.

          137. theletterafterj says:

            Oops…I don’t think an article is necessary!

          138. theletterafterj says:

            The emails are a good example of a Hoover Trigger (HT) and the Hoover Execution Criteria (HEC) being easily met, however, no hoover (a hoover is control) was deployed, a Silent Treatment (ST) was deployed instead (exertion of control).

            It’s all about the control, fuel and supremacy and the provision of an explanation would have been fuel and evidence of control (by the sender) over the receiver (HG), in HER world.

            However, if HG responds, either on the blog on in private, it’s a manipulation; he is the puppet master; he is THE controller, not the controlled.

          139. K says:

            My pleasure njfilly
            And thank you for your kind words!

            DC is a Midranger and, based on the typos in his comments, I suspect he may be a LMRN somatic. DC is here to fulfill the Prime Aims and, although evilmuskhat can be provocative, I am not really sure what he is.

          140. njfilly says:

            I hate typos and victims.

          141. WokeAF says:

            K: holeeee sheepshit. It has not occurred to me that a narc views OTHER PPL’s relationships as that person’s extensions. 🤦‍♀️ wow.
            So ..since HG “belongs” to the narc that malign Hoovers NA…how is it this narc view HG as having an extension himself- if HG isn’t registered as an independent entity ?

          142. K says:

            Holy sheepshit is correct.

            In this instance, HG is the target (for the Prime Aims) and NA is the competition.

            These MMRNs (let’s assume that’s what they are) don’t consciously realize that people/appliances are extensions. It is more likely that they view HG, NA and all the Readers as an extension of themselves and part of their Fuel Matrices (NITS).

            Essentially, it is a Narc Off and what makes this all the more compelling is that HG knows exactly what is going on and so do we.

          143. Violetta says:

            Yes, I’ve played with both Civil War and Renaissance folks.

          144. njfilly says:


            Very interesting. I was also involved in Renaissance fairs years ago as well as being in a Revolutionary War reenactment group belonging to a fife and drum corp. when I was a child. I love anything involving costumes.

          145. Violetta says:


            Costumes and dancing. Preferably combined.

            I blame it on Gone With the Wind and the Zeffirelli Romeo and Juliet. Many girls fantasize about having Rhett Butler carry them up the stairs or having their very own Balcony Scene. I wanted to lead a reel while wearing a hoopskirt and dance to “Salterello la Regina” in a gammura.

          146. njfilly says:


            Yes I agree with the combined costumes and dancing.

          147. Violetta says:


            ‘So “ED” changes names but keeps their initials?’

            I thought E.D. stood for “Erectile Dysfunction.”

            Maybe it does.

          148. njfilly says:


            Funny! Is the “ED” on this blog male or female? Is it known?

          149. HG Tudor says:

            Female. And irrelevant.

          150. njfilly says:

            Does that affect their behavior and how they try to get your attention?

          151. HG Tudor says:

            Does “what” affect their behaviour NJF?

          152. njfilly says:

            Whether they are male or female. Do they behave differently due to that in trying to get fuel or hoover you or other commenters here.

          153. HG Tudor says:

            Yes they do. The males tend to be “I want to be like you HG/I am like you HG/posturing.” The females aim for seduction/pity play.

          154. njfilly says:

            I see. Yes that makes sense.

          155. Violetta says:

            Njfilly and K:

            We can tell ourselves that Lesley “deserved it.” (Haven’t read that book yet, but it seems to be the consensus.) Hannah seems considerably less culpable (she’s the actress HG provoked into screwing herself out of a voice), but I do fault her for insufficient devotion to her craft: what’s to stop her from finding someone else to read lines with, after a few instances of HG sabotaging her, even if she wasn’t sure it was deliberate?

            I also fault her for insufficient sense of duty to cast and crew: I stayed out of moshpits whenever I was doing a show, particularly a dance show, not just because I didn’t want to be replaced, but because I knew that the farther along a production was, the more of a pain in the posterior replacing me would be: they might already have costumes, the other actors might have to change their interpretations depending on the new cast member’s line readings. I got my first non-school credit when a woman walked out of a production a week and a half before opening. Before that, I had racked up numerous callbacks, but not been cast; after that, I started getting one show after another. I suspect the woman I replaced never worked in theatre again.

            That said, Lesley and Hannah were painted black. (Is that a Stones reference, HG?) SM is currently painted white, but we don’t know what HG might say about her in devaluation. In addition, we only have his word about how awful any girlfriend was or how wonderful the current girlfriend is. None of these women might be as ideal as she initially seemed, nor as heinous as HG eventually depicted her. We might say, “All right, this one or that one wasn’t asking for it the way Lesley did, but why was she such a doormat? I wouldn’t put up with that!”

            Except we did. That’s why we’re here.

          156. njfilly says:

            Yes it’s all a matter of perspective.

          157. K says:

            Staying out of the moshpits is an excellent display of emotional empathy for the cast and crew. Narcissists don’t do responsibility or accountability. They would be taking selfies in the moshpit and posting them on Facebook. Look at me (in the moshpit with duck lips)!

            I see an empath and I want to paint her black. Lesley is the only IPPS that I didn’t feel bad for and I (we) put up with it because I was juiced-up on the narc skag a.k.a. The Golden Period.

            Evan711 says:
            May 18, 2016 at 23:44
            Ouch… I take it Leslie was not an empath…?

            malignnarc says:
            May 19, 2016 at 09:31
            She had some empathic traits but not was not an empath.


          158. Violetta says:


            “One in particular repeatedly believes she has been not shown favour like others.”

            You stood up Sweetest Perfection, and you didn’t stand up meeeeee….

          159. HG Tudor says:

            That is exactly the kind of nonsense that would be written Violetta, well noted.

          160. Renarde says:


            No. Rattle throwing and stick prodding are two entirely different concepts.

          161. njfilly says:

            Thank you, Renarde. I’m not familiar with those phrases.

        2. Violetta says:


          Aside from the fact that you’re not going to engage in a conflict of interest with the Tudorites, do the rattle-throwers honestly not believe that eventually they would be in devaluation while you lined up the next victim? Have they read what you’ve actually written? What’s to stop them from being the next Hannah or (forgive the expression) Lesley?

          1. HG Tudor says:

            Magical thinking. Tells you all you need to know about the rattle throwers.

          2. K says:

            I suspected as much regarding the rattle throwers and it displays a lack of emotional empathy.

          3. HG Tudor says:


          4. NarcAngel says:

            Lack of emotional empathy…

            Not to mention immaturity.

          5. K says:

            I referred to my ULN’s father (a lesser) as Baby Huey because he behaved like a big fat baby. His waist size was 52 inches US, he was a size 4XL.

          6. NarcAngel says:

            K aka Violator (couldn’t resist)

            That’s a big baby. I want to clarify the comment regarding lack of maturity was in relation to the rattle throwers.

          7. K says:

            Hahahaha…my ULN’s father was a big-fat-immature-rattle-thrower! Violator! haha…oh, the shame of it!

          8. Lorelei says:

            K—I think HG has a 52 inch waist as well!

          9. K says:

            Hahahaha…you are just begging for it!

          10. Lorelei says:

            Like how big is a 52” waist?! Jesus. You wouldn’t know what’s under it.

          11. HG Tudor says:

            I would hazard a guess that it is 52 inches.

          12. Lorelei says:

            Omg HG. Stop.

          13. Lorelei says:

            And HG—I know you don’t look like Baby Huey. I imagine you wear a large size shirt, and 34” x 32” trousers. I bet I’m spot on.

          14. HG Tudor says:

            No, I just wear a cloak, a cloak of mystery…..

          15. Lorelei says:

            I’m right or nearly correct based on the legs in the photo and stated height. Unless you are a slob and it’s the pool boy. I know men’s clothing sizes and I know them well. Your legs (or the pool boys) are not those typically associated with a 32” waist which gets kinda thin really. 34” is perfect. 32” length is standard for reasonable height.

          16. HG Tudor says:

            They are my legs. You are pretty much on the money.

          17. Lorelei says:

            You are very persistent that they are your legs. I’ll give you that. Overly thin men are not appealing. My ex lost weight and looked horrible when he lost the biggest bulk of his money. It’s a shame he didn’t starve himself to death. Stupid Fuck. What a complete and totally useless fucking moron.

          18. HG Tudor says:

            That is because they are.

          19. Lorelei says:

            Jesus ok—I’ll accept it as fact. I’m glad you have two legs. Mine are never tan because the sun is damaging. I only tanned a little for a wedding. I found it hot, sweaty, and gross. I don’t like the poolside all that much. Not for long. I don’t do cruises. (Although Antarctica is of interest) I don’t like it Sam I am.

          20. K says:

            Oh, yes I did! His ginormous underwear had very long and large skid marks.

          21. Lorelei says:

            Really? I had a
            little hole in the hippy portion of my underwear just last week and threw them out. I can’t be seen dead in my bed in such an atrocity. Like what if I suddenly die and have stitching in disarray? No way.

          22. Dorion says:

            I think magical thinking is a good term, but also idealism (which is a form of magical thinking after all) or ambition. The way some here wish for SM to be different and somehow start a new period of history is also something I personally would describe as idealism because it implies elements of good will. Magical thinking sounds more like delusion.

            I am making a comment on this thread now because I think I am currently experiencing devaluation from one of my narc colleagues. I wrote about him a bit elsewhere, I brought him up as an example for someone I cannot imagine anything else but a Greater. We work for the same organization that he very significantly expanded and revamped in the last ~15 years, so he is one of the top leaders there. When I brought him up as an example, I mentioned how I was very puzzled at the beginning about what, to me, felt like his excessive and very visible interest expressed in me. This never had romantic/sexual elements (not that I know of) but purely professional, his wanting me to fit nicely into his empire and serve its purposes, his demands, his vision etc. To become one of his primary lieutenants, as HG likes to say. Well, that did not happen but it wasn’t so obvious as I was self-aware enough to see I’m better to integrate to a certain extent and show (sometimes fake) being his fan, so that I can benefit from my time at the place. That actually lasted pretty nicely for almost 10 years, until sometimes last year, when I started to notice changes in his behavior towards me. That was also part of the reason I became interested in HG and this blog, to see what it is about in more depth. It doesn’t bother me too much because it is clear as day that, just like I didn’t specifically do anything to deserve the excessive attention at the beginning, I also didn’t do much to lose it (except not becoming a blind follower which, I guess, is significant trigger for a narc like him).

            The other factor I can identify now is that he has a lot of new prospects for the same position now, several new people who started working for the company last year. It is very interesting to observe. Kinda annoying at times because, based on who he is, he easily forms and directs cliques at the place and I very clearly see them casting me out now. Luckily, I played it well enough from start that I am not directly dependent on him because my primary affiliation is another department and this guy’s is secondary for me. But I still run into them all the time because we work on the same field.

            Anyhow, I am just ignoring all of it. There is no way in hell I would want to go to him asking what’s wrong now or appeal to him in any way. I am still fascinated by how the guy operates and what he has achieved with it, the scale of it etc, and I admire the skill, how it can influence masses. I don’t see him in black-and-white. But there is no point in wishing it to be different or to wonder what the heck happened, because I know what happened. I am looking to leave the organization anyway within a year for other reasons. What I do see though, all over the place, is how the countless people he has ensnared professionally get desperate at even a dismissive glance of his and endlessly try to suck up to him. I don’t even see how that could be broken once these people have obviously enmeshed with him and his empire. It is also clear the guy wouldn’t give a fuck if any of them left – there are always lots of new ones coming in. I do think that my indifference irritates him some but I don’t see what else would be a good strategy on my end.

            As for the magical thinking – I must say that I had a little bit of that in the beginning. Probably in part because I felt confident that I would be immune to be manipulated in harmful ways. But I am absolutely not immune, the only thing that has kept me from being affected much is that I haven’t enmeshed from start. I must admit I considered it at times, and can’t even say I as so wise to predict future in precise detail, it was more just my personality, not being and enmeshing/follower/conforming type. But once that happens, anyone can wish any amount of change and new era of history to this guy and his world… I see it very clearly it’ll never happen. I think I would be in a very difficult position now professionally, even if I left the company, because his influence reaches everywhere within our field, internationally. But he can enjoy his devaluation all he wants, I bet it won’t last long, it would be weird if someone like him spent too much energy on manipulation that is mostly sterile. I do think he benefited from me in the beginning and I have also benefited from him, we can let it go.

          23. njfilly says:


            I guess I am experiencing some magical thinking myself as I also hope Mr. Tudor’s relationship with The Shield Maiden will continue; that she is somehow different. But I guess the reality is that the difference must come from Mr. Tudor.

            Maybe the “new dynamic” will work. I don’t actually know what that is. I’m not sure if it has been explained in detail on the blog.

            I have only been on this blog for approx. 6 months so this is the only experience I have with knowing any information about Mr. Tudor’s relationships, other than as written about in articles. Perhaps I need to reread Asylum of the Grotesque to bring myself back to reality.

            I can already feel in myself the heartbreak that The Shield Maiden might experience when her dream turns into a nightmare. I sometimes have to step away from the blog because of it.

          24. Lorelei says:

            Njfilly—I want HG to have triplets and get a mini van! Wouldn’t it be a nice change?!

          25. njfilly says:

            Funny! Identical triplets. Tudor clones. But they would never be as good as the original.

          26. Lorelei says:

            I have a mini van he can use that just sits. I spent a fortune in repairs and I’m bitter to sell it. Waste of money. The kids and their friends like the space but I rarely drive it. I finally bought an all wheel drive or 4 wheel drive capable vehicle. Is an all wheel drive a 4 wheel drive? Who knows. Anyway—it’s snowy and slippery today. HG can use the van.

          27. njfilly says:

            I believe all wheel drive and 4 wheel drive are different.

          28. Lorelei says:

            I have no flipping idea what I am driving!

          29. njfilly says:

            I drive an SUV which I believe is all wheel drive. I think this might have to do with fuel efficiency?

            I think 4 wheel drive requires locking of the wheels and is for off-road, deep snow, or other difficult driving conditions. Or something similar.

            I usually have a man available for all “car related” or “mechanical” errands or issues. Men are so handy. I love them. (Well, some of them anyway).

          30. Lorelei says:

            HG—I have a button to push to put the SUV into 4-wheel drive. Is it an all wheel drive or what?

          31. K says:

            don’t hold your breath!

            HG Tudor says:
            June 7, 2016 at 09:16
            I can categorically state there will be no HG offspring unless I decide to adopt and that is not going to happen. Accordingly the question is moot as I don’t and wont have any children.


          32. Lorelei says:

            I imagine HG isn’t mean to children. In fact, I imagine his nieces and nephews have a positive view. I understand he is clear on not wanting them—but to be honest K—I bet he’s more appropriate with them than many due to an awareness of what is not ok that other narcissists can’t see. I imagine interactions are not often though.

          33. K says:

            Based on what I have read, I think he treats them well. He is an elite so he will use benign control (somatic gesture of generosity, gifts) which accords with his facade.

          34. Lorelei says:

            I sent the link to myself to archive.

          35. K says:

            Good, focus on reading and learning so you reduce your ET.

          36. Lorelei says:

            Will do K. If I get to it I’ll find the link to what I found ridiculous. I know it’s accessible but requires a bit of sifting. It’s a good example of nonsense.

          37. Sweetest Perfection says:

            He didn’t stand up Sweetest Perfection. SP has enough future faking experience. Not that I was looking forward to having a stranger show up in my house to pick me up last week btw. About magical thinking, I also have some experience with that. My narc saying “I am attractive to most women” is not magical thinking, because “ he would not be described as physically unpleasant and many women express interest” quoting HG. My narc also stating “I feel really invigorated by my ample intellectual skills, my natural charisma, and my innate charm”
            is magical thinking and also worth spitting in his eye.

        3. Dorion says:

          HG, here is another vote for writing about those “hidden” wannabes and case studies, including some from behind the scenes (Instagram, your inbox of whatever). I think it was already mentioned on another thread before. I would even love to have a detailed version with analysis in a book format and am sure many people would be interested.

          1. HG Tudor says:

            Vote duly recorded, Dorion.

        4. Lorelei says:

          That’s unfortunate HG. That anyone would wish for anyone to be devalued. Would it be the magical thinking of a narcissist or a very fragile empath to throw themselves at you or send nude photos? I get the concept of idolizing or transference, but wouldn’t sending nudes exceed this? I wonder what your thoughts are. Also, I think it’s ok if a relationship becomes stale for it to be said. They get stale for everyone in a way—eventually. Just different than a narcissist type of stale. Mundane perhaps. I just hate to think of a less than kind devaluation after the work here with us. I think that is fair. Devaluation triggering a disengagement is not “abuse” per se.

          1. HG Tudor says:

            Those that do it from the beginning, do so in order to seek to seduce me. There is no boundary recognition, magical thinking, a sense of entitlement. A fragile empath with heightened emotional thinking may idolise me or hero worship me but would not start off by sending me nude pictures or videos. Rather they would be appreciative and may (not always) develop a fantasy and an infatuation with regard to me, driven by heightened ET. There are significant differences between the two groups (which I should add are a very small percentage of my readers – most readers do not interact with me) and the two groups are treated differently. No empath or normal who is need of my assistance will have any adverse response from me.

          2. Lorelei says:

            Well I think it’s acceptable to disengage from relationships and to share what you want—but it’s unacceptable for anyone to wish for someone to be hurt by actions other than the act of simple disengagement. Actually, a disengagement, per se-happens in all sorts of relationships and doesn’t have to be preceded by overt & unpleasant behavior. I don’t like certain people but don’t wish for unpleasantness to encompass their days. Even my ex—truly. If he’s unsettled it impacts others. He may lash out at an employee for instance.
            I also think when it comes to a really broken empath that develops a transference (lending to a romantic notion) that it is kind of you to be aware by stating just what you recognize. I think many regular commenters may have some form of “transference” based on gratitude for the work or other attributes that make it fun here. It’s a projection really (transference is a projection of sorts) and for a long while I had no semblance of achieving anything positive, so there is a projection of positivity based on evidence of nice changes and the promise of more. My mother was able to see something she had not in a long time—there is no way to determine the value on this fact. Is this clear as mud? I assume this is a more typical endearment.
            A mid-range narcissist running a narcissist recovery type of site could easily take advantage of someone. No one is being taken advantage of here, and if I were to take a guess you would know who requires the utmost caution for boundaries based on suspected “romantic” transference, AND act appropriately and accordingly. So, let the naysayers state “He is (insert any comment) and I can’t read his work..” Let them go babble online with some victim narcissists and get fucked over again and again. Also, saying a broken empath is not to denigrate anyone. I’m very broken. It would be a different type of transference and not related to someone’s innate worth. Maybe a culmination of individual factors rendering a romantic consideration as the brand of transference perhaps.
            HG—my true prediction is that any romantic relationship you have will grow stale. It’s what you do when that occurs that is where any real work rests. No, I don’t think you are a nice psychologist with five kids and dogs running a narcissist business with a nice wife. I do believe the narcissism is real and I don’t believe with the nomadic nature you describe that any relationship will avoid being stale. Stale happens to us all in a way, and the narcissism will have to be fed. Re-channeling it would be the challenge. And would anyone’s fulfillment of the prime aims suffice the re-channeling as worth it?

          3. K says:

            Wow! Nude pictures or videos. Well, there’s your seduction hoover(s). Your inbox must be time-consuming and tedious.

          4. Dorion says:


            I hope this post will end in the right place. I just want to say that I like your comment very much about transference and the responsibility of someone who claims to be very knowledgeable and self-aware, to see it for what it is and handle it with fairness. Where true improvement could start. The cliche problem is that if there is no desire for modification, there won’t be change. Taking my favorite comparison with addiction: one can tell an addict in any way they want, till they drop down dry, that the addict’s life would be better if they put down the drug and remodeled their life dramatically. Most already know it but it will never happen unless they want the change so badly that it overrides every other desire, or when everything around them collapses and no other choice is left. It really is a dark reality, sadly.

            Thanks again, Lorelei, I very much enjoyed reading your note and agree completely!

          5. Lorelei says:

            Thanks Dorian—transference is an interesting concept. And being self aware allows HG to know of the vulnerability here, and to be cautious where needed so people can benefit from the work and not stay stuck.
            I am aware of psychiatrists who are inevitably mid rangers having sexual or other liaisons with patients. **And this is a plural observation. It is inappropriate and a flagrant disregard for another’s wellness —and almost inevitably inflicted by NON self aware narcissists. If someone improves and time moves into a different direction maybe a friendship evolves.. That would be the only non-damaging scenario.

      2. K says:

        That’s upsetting to read. I am not always on instagram; I don’t wish that on SM or anyone else. It’s heartbreaking to even think about.

        1. njfilly says:

          I don’t look forward to it. I hope it doesn’t happen. It is heartbreaking.

      3. Dorion says:


        I’m also quite new here, found this blog sometime November last year, so that makes ~3 months at best. I also don’t read here daily on a regular basis and miss many posts and answers to my posts. Plus, I am also fairly selective in my reading and engagement, for the same reasons I cited in my story about my colleague. I want to keep it focused on things that I really benefit from (including in practical, tangible ways) and resist merely feeding my curiosity. My curiosity tends to be sort of endless, so I would easily and quickly get lost and distracted if I gave in to all of its pulls… ask me how I know this. Learned the hard way in the past, over many years.

        Yes, I know it can feel sad and even provoking when we realize or hear that these narc patterns just won’t change, and it is very, very, very unlikely that any of us will be exceptions in relation to or truly influence the narc to change behavior. I think HG’s recommendation to take it as zero chance is the best bet indeed. Because, you know… with the idealism and seeking/wanting to implement changes that align better with our vision for a subjectively perceived better world, what is the chance to succeed really? Based on all the precedents, data from years, decades, history even? Very little, sadly. We can make reforms and revolutions in society but they are better not go through an obvious narc channel, or attempting the narc channel to transform as we wish. You see, this is why my strategy is: see what is really there, understand why you are interested and what you can possibly take away from it, pursue the latter (your goals basically) and leave the rest. I know this is hard for Empaths, easier for me as I am more just a Normal in this classification.

        1. njfilly says:


          I also don’t read here daily or make as many comments as other readers. I try to be selective as well due to limited time.

          The blog is very funny at times and the commenters make very interesting, funny and clever comments. It’s a fun distraction from work as well as sometimes a release of my own thoughts. Also, I thoroughly enjoy Mr. Tudor’s work and he is a very gifted writer.

      4. Dorion says:

        One reason I like Greaters and will not refuse to work with them in the future even: I know they like good ideas and will strive to integrate them into their own Grand Design. I have plenty of those ideas, but not the same level of ambition, at least as far as visibility and execution goes. So am not reluctant to share them because I know which ideas I want to expand and own for myself (so those will be carefully isolated and managed) and which ones are just… ideas to spread out there, for people who will more likely make them happen. I am often the kind of person who is satisfied with just developing ideas and leave the implementation to others. Little desire to control anyone apart from myself. I honestly don’t even care if sometimes the implementers don’t credit me, again, because I know what projects are my primary interests of ownership and I definitely do not recklessly/generously share those. But all the hundreds of other thoughts, ideas, suggestions… that is what consulting is for.

        I actually look forward to working with more Greaters in the future. I am not a bad combo with them at all. I think I am a bad combo with Mids and Lessers.

        1. njfilly says:


          I have only recently learned about narcissism so I don’t know if I have encountered any greaters. I definitely respect and admire ambitious driven people, and have worked with quite a few over the years in different fields. I have been quite ambitious and driven myself.

          Contrarily, I also admire a certain segment of society that lives an unencumbered, free lifestyle; i.e. hippie surfer dude that lives in CA under the boardwalk, owning few possessions and working daily only for food to eat. I respect that as well. Such a free lifestyle with little responsibility except to live each day, having no attachment to material things or even a home. This lifestyle provides a new and different perspective on life and other matters and completely re-prioritizes one’s values, needs, and experiences . If this is done by choice, rather than laziness or inability to hold a job, I see the value in it and I respect it and almost envy it at times.

          I am similar in that I don’t require recognition in certain areas. I sometimes actually prefer anonymity. I know I’m great and other people recognize it even if they don’t outwardly acknowledge it. (Just being sarcastic).

          Although I have dealt with both lessers and mid rangers, I might prefer lessers. I would prefer outward aggression to passive aggression, fake compassion, or victim hood. I prefer to know immediately who my enemies are rather than having to guess or being fooled. I prefer to live bluntly and honestly and often can’t hide my feelings or hold back my thoughts.

        2. kel says:

          I worked with a Greater. They are great workers, you can go to them with a complaint and they will get it fixed for you, they have a dynamic energy. But they are narcissists, and they are very powerful and nothing to mess with. You may not realize it, but they are not loyal to you, you can know them for years and you’re still like a stranger in their eyes because you’re not a person, you’re a thing-an appliance. Your ideas will get used because the narcissist will use them to make himself look good. But don’t be fooled by their masks. Greaters are the best at mirroring us, at manipulating us, but they chuckle behind people’s backs who don’t realize they’re being used by them to get where he wants to be and get what he wants. I never want to know or associate with any more narcs. They take your time away, your thoughts, and everything from you.

      5. Dorion says:


        Thanks for your thoughts. I have been interested in narcissism for a long time but mostly approached it via more academic literature and the mental health profession. What HG is doing is definitely unique and much more accessible, plus has the practical elements that most other “studies” are lacking.

        I am pretty convinced that the guy I was talking about is a Greater, sort of if he is not one, then no one is. Some other people I’ve met are more a suspicion, but I have not seen them from enough angles to be similarly confident. Most of them have been in my professional circles, which doesn’t only attract many high achievers but also good strategists who can use the system to their advantage, at least on the more senior levels. One person that probably also fits that bill I met in my personal life, in an online community, we were buddies for a while but never met in person. After it became 100% clear that I had no interest in him romantically/sexually, he was surprisingly open with me and told me about how he maneuvered his professional life and the women he hooked up with – HGs stories (especially about women) often remind me of him. I think I’ve also met quite a few Mid-Rangers and never got along well with them. Most of those were very passive and, like you, I can’t stand that behavior. I think I’ have not encountered many Lessers but those that I suspect had very little in common with me so never developed relationships of any kind.

        You are bringing up something that is very important to me, regarding freedom. I am not a hippy type per se but value freedom and autonomy over most things in life. It is not like the narcs’ desire for control and self-centeredness, that’s not freedom for me but slavery. I have never been interested in accumulating material possessions like property, objects and the so-called traditional status symbols – I see them as clutter and boring things to maintain. For me, status is related to ability and competency, not position, and this is why I sometimes tend to clash with authority…people who exert power using position but lack the competency. I surely like money because it can buy me things I like to do, but it is a tool not a goal. I am following some of those people in the US who live in mobile homes and in vehicles they refurbished to be their homes and really admire many of them. Narcs think that they are superior and others envy them and their things, but they can never truly understand the value of freedom because they maintain a complicated, high-maintenance web of dependencies and have no desire/ability to live differently. I think one can be ambitious, driven, accomplish great things, and still be quite free – not in a sense that they are not controlled by others but in mind and lifestyle. Have balance and mental peace. If someone is constantly preoccupied with their maneuvers and how to manipulate, those things are impossible to achieve, in my opinion.

        1. njfilly says:


          Interesting comment. You actually touched on quite a few things I could write a lot about, particularly the control/freedom dichotomy that is another prevalent theme in my life. Instead I will comment about clutter. I mentioned on another comment that I am “somewhat” of a minimalist. I can’t be a true minimalist for various reasons but I hate clutter and collections of any kind and I have always been this way. Even in my youth when teenagers were collecting albums and cassette tapes of music I couldn’t understand the reason to collect such things, or anything for that matter. I don’t want to have attachments to material things. Also I like to simplify my life as much as possible and I am very neat and organized and having less possessions helps in these areas. Although I would prefer not to live in a “tiny home” or mobile home. I do enjoy big houses, I must say. I like to have many rooms and large rooms
          if possible because I like a lot of space, I just don’t like those rooms filled with useless crap or furniture!

          I agree Mr. HG Tudor’s blog is unique. May I ask what field you are in?

      6. Dorion says:


        I am a scientist in academia, in the last decade or so focusing on mental health-related medical research. I’ve always worked for top notch organizations. That’s where I meet those narcs I was talking about, they are typically in some higher leadership position such as department chair, dean, director etc and tend to have wide-ranging networks and influence. I also have a private consulting business where I sometimes work with clients who are obviously highly narcissistic, but they don’t do anything bad to me because they want the benefit of the service and I can easily dump them if they try to maneuver in ways I don’t like.

        I am similar regarding minimalism, it is just my nature when it comes to things and property. I am absolutely not a minimalist about mental/intellectual “wealth” – in part I like to limit material surplus so that I don’t need to waste my time maintaining those, it is very boring to me. But, at the same time, I care a lot about aesthetics, quality of everything and like to have a harmonious, organized, tasteful, highly function-oriented environment, I am not as purely cerebral as some people I have met. I became highly aware of my intrinsic minimalism during a time in the past when I was struggling with mental health myself, how my go-to approach is reducing things around me to unhealthy levels (unhealthily minimalistic) when I am not well and feel that I cannot handle everything. I would still always keep my intellectual pursuits but live as though my material existence was irrelevant. I learned this and am now aware that I should not be overly minimalistic, to the extent that I am neglecting my physical needs and comfort. I also like space but don’t care about large houses for the reason mentioned above, because it takes a lot of maintenance if I want to keep it in a condition that is satisfying. I can pay others to do it for me but then need to deal with the services too much and they disrupt my life, need to adapt to them etc. In general, I prefer to invest in stuff that does not require care in that way.

        I must say that partly all this is driven by avoidant elements in my personality. I think that is behind the ingrained minimalism in significant ways; it extends into many relationships as well but I still do like to maintain 1-2 close friendships at a given time, without those I feel my life is lacking. Usually it is with people we have any similarities, especially similar personal values.

        1. njfilly says:


          Interesting comment. Thank you for sharing.

          I agree about the maintenance on large homes. I fantasize about downsizing my home as well as my possessions but I enjoy having many rooms to choose from where I might spend some time.

      7. Dorion says:

        Hi kel,

        Thanks for sharing your experience. I know they are not loyal, but I don’t expect/need them to be, I also wouldn’t describe myself as a very loyal employee. I most frequently work with those people transiently, on particular projects, and the reason I like it is because they are very driven, productive and are usually much more skilled at promoting and pushing ideas and projects. I know that they steal ideas and make them their own but I honestly often don’t mind at all, even if they never credit me, my reward is seeing the idea at work and not the recognition. I can see very clearly when they do this with my ideas and can be happy that someone uses them because I myself often wouldn’t, at least not in the same way. I like my ideas but am attached to only a very few of them (usually new ones), and those I don’t share and work the same way with others.

        The best place I see how mischievous these individuals can be is when it comes to anonymous, indirect exertion of power, e.g. in my field reviewing other people’s work, grants, tasks that involve a lot of political maneuvers and room for manipulation without much accountability. They are never supportive just for the sake of it, without own self-interest in helping someone, even if it only includes gathering followers and admirers. I’ve been stabbed in the back before and it was very clear how and why but I’ve built my professional world in such a way that I am never very highly dependent upon anyone or when I am, I only integrate loosely. The one I was talking about in the earlier post has been by far the longest, but I think only because we never collaborated very directly. He has a ton of money, connections, social skills, whatever resources, also the ambition and power to do things with ideas and suggestions I would never take beyond the intellectual level. It can be fun for me to see what comes of them and I don’t need to be involved or acknowledged to enjoy that. The guy I was talking about, for example, even supported me in some pretty serious critical endeavors, I could use his name and power to succeed. Another reason I like interacting with some of them is because I often feel we are intellectual equals, including they understand other people and behavior from the outside, not from the inside. That cognitive empathy HG often mentions – I like that feature.

        The mirroring is interesting. I think it can also work because many people want to be associated with high achievers, so if there is the sense that one is understood and accepted in their league, it feels like validation and feeds into self-esteem. I completely agree, this is very important to be aware of and not go blind. For example, I often find myself latching onto certain things HG says on this blog, especially his thinking style, ways of structuring and sharing information, logic – I sense similarities. Even some of the emotional patterns and parts of the detachment. But I am sure a lot of this is projection – I pick up certain things, stories etc and infuse them with my own whatever, then feel attracted because usually these are things I value. I think sometimes we create the illusion of the mirror for ourselves with selective focus. I am sure this phenomenon plays a role in the Golden Period with a narc, when that feeling of merging is so strong. It is actually a very interesting method of introspection to observe these patterns. Best from a safe distance of course and when the real roles and motives are clear. Getting involved with narcs in a way where boundaries are blurred is absolutely a terrible idea.

        1. kel says:

          Hi Dorion,

          It sounds like you’re keeping your distance and know how to handle it.

          But the part where you say you like interacting with them because you feel like you’re intellectual equals – is the part that concerns me. That’s the mirroring thing. It was a big reason why I enjoyed talking to him, because he got me, he was sharp, he was quick and understood my sense of humor and could give it back. I enjoyed it. But that’s not who he is with other people. He’s a chameleon, he matches whoever he’s with. It’s like a sport, he’s good at it.

          Like everyone says, Run, Don’t Walk from a narcissist- but especially a greater. They are so good at being convincing and they enjoy the whole game they’re playing.

          I don’t know if you’re saying the guy is a greater because he’s self-aware, but if he is, then he knows what he’s doing and he enjoys fooling others.

          Anyway, you sound very strong, just keep in mind you’re playing with fire. 😊

      8. Dorion says:


        Thanks for you concern and advice, very appreciated. It is useful for me to remember that a lot of the sense of intellectual equal grounds may be an illusion. In fact, the guy I mentioned for example – I know he is not some sort of super creative genius, especially when it comes to abstract things. His intellect manifests the most in his strategies and how he understands and uses the system to succeed and to make his grander projects and vision succeed. But on paper, he comes across as a pioneer in many ways because he has good eyes for timely things that will be very relevant and will attract great attention in the near and far future, and acts on them quickly. He is also very good at attracting allies and managing his community. I believe he is a Greater because it is obvious to me that he knows what he is doing, what drives him and he fits the descriptions of Greaters HG shares very well. I haven’t used the Narc Detector on him, he is not that important for me. How do you know your coworker was a Greater?

        I doubt that I could completely avoid narcissists unless I avoid some of my own interests. But I don’t think it is specific to me – considering how common narcs are in the world, how could we avoid them really? I think we should absolutely avoid too much, close, vulnerable and especially personal engagement with them, that is for sure. A bit like being on this blog. But it is always good to be vigilant and I do have some tendency to take too high risks, to feel invincible etc. I have been burned due to my own risk taking before and quite seriously, just not with narcs. But it is always useful to be more aware of contingencies, so thanks again.

        1. kel says:


          True, narcissists are excellent at just about everything they do. They’re quite impressive, and they seem to do things so quickly and easily with precision.

          And no, you can’t avoid them because they’re everywhere. We just have to avoid getting ensnared and caught up with them. That’s easy with lessers because they’re so obvious, a little harder with mid’s because they’re so clingy, but I gotta say, it’s probably impossible with greater’s. My boss for nine years had some marital problem years ago that brought his wife’s brothers into town and I believe there was an intervention where he learned of his narcissism. It’s something he would skirt around, but not openly discuss. And he’s a malicious narcissist too, but most people don’t know that side of him, they’re only swept up by his charm. He doesn’t even have to open his mouth to melt a woman he just met, he just looks at her like she’s the best thing he’s ever seen, and she’s his, lol. But I knew him for nine years, and kind of felt like family with him, and I was always getting after him about things he did. He was very composed and easy going, and he used people to get what he wanted without them realizing until it was too late. He became president of the region in the company, creating a new title, by romancing another manager, and then taking over her job out from under her, combining it with his. She didn’t even mind at first until he dropped her all of a sudden. He also gets vengeance if it’s worth it to him, slowly and patiently, years later. He’s just very charming though, helps everyone who asks him to, just a great guy. That’s his image, and it makes you overlook all the abuse he tears you down with- jokingly of course- but damaging mentally and emotionally never the less – it’s how they keep you ensnared and engaged.

          I’m surprised that you found your way to the blog without being a narcissist’s victim. Interesting that a relationship with a ‘normal’ would bring you here, and perhaps we’ll hear more about it from you. I’m pretty sure I’ve only ever been in relationships with narcs, and I’m looking forward to an empath or normal the next time.

      9. Dorion says:


        “True, narcissists are excellent at just about everything they do. They’re quite impressive, and they seem to do things so quickly and easily with precision.”

        I think some are excellent and impressive, absolutely not all. I have personally also found some of the sloppiest, least competent people among narcs. Lots of hypocrisy. One of them was a psychotherapist I was seeing for a while several years ago, I think a typical Mid-Ranger (see more below). I think most want to be excellent, unique and effective because they create their identity around these things. Sometimes it happens to mix with true talent, skill, and a very appropriate domain they find for themselves to operate and then they truly excel/stand out but, in my opinion, that is the minority. We may notice those more and often use as examples especially when it comes to public figures because they are known for something, but I think the majority is very mediocre.

        Your boss does sound like he has some talent and the charm does help. I am personally not very receptive/reactive to charm in general if it is empty, but I value competency, efficiency, creativity etc. It still does not mean I will fall for anyone easily – may notice them, but it takes a lot to really engage me on a personal level, or even convince me to collaborate professionally. I can easily say ‘no’ to people, in part because I am rather selfish myself. Will do things when they interest me and as long as that interest lasts.

        Just to clarify a misunderstanding, my post didn’t go into my history. It is true that I’ve never had a significant relationship with a narcissist. The closest I’ve had to being a “victim” was with a therapist I saw for a few months – it was one of the oddest interpersonal experiences I’d ever had, absolutely one of a kind in my life, very frustrating and annoying in the end but also intriguing as I had never been that close to such behavior. The other narcs I’ve encountered via my work or just see existing around. My father had some strong narc traits but definitely not NPD, he was a good, fair man overall. Once I had a very brief affair with a narc colleague but I got out almost as soon as it started as his behavior became highly repulsive very quickly and my interest in him was rather misguided to start with.

        The more significant factors that brought me to this blog:
        (1) I work in the mental health field and am interested in many different conditions. I get a lot of my information from academic perspectives, but I really like to sometimes “make my hands dirty” and step into the reality of it for a while. One of my favorite ways of doing this is reading and participating in mental health-related online forums – I have a long history, Narcsite is just one of them, the most recent one.
        (2) What I was referring to as “being burned” wasn’t about a relationship, it was a serious substance addiction. One of the elements that intrigues me about the narc-empath dynamic is its resemblance to other addictions and I am pleased to see on this blog that HG shares that view. It is hard to miss but many people won’t make this parallel.
        (3) I’ve also been analyzing my own narcissistic traits and this blog is very useful for that – simply just reading and comparing what I see (because HG makes it so explicit and practical) with my history and patterns. One way this interest started was about 10 years ago, when I was doing professional personality tests. One of them told me that I was moderately high on psychopathic traits and that got my interest because I had never looked at myself that way before. But then dug into it more and I understand why. I also have a history about people being dissatisfied with my level of empathy, more from my youth as, like HG, I’ve learned from observation and experience what it is about and how to use it, how to actually find and bring it out of myself, not merely fake it. But it is definitely limited. Being on a blog so packed with Empaths is interesting and a good lesson. I admire the strength displayed because it is a very different kind of strength from the ones I have. From all I know currently, I think I am a “normal”, but probably tending a bit to the narc side more than the empath side, at least sometimes. I am convinced I don’t have a personality disorder just traits, some stronger than others. But there are many aspects of narcissism I do not relate to at all.

        I think pretty much all of my significant romantic relationships were with other normals. The prospective of empath-normal is interesting and something that came up in my life in recent years because my best friend of the past ~5 years is an Empath, and a pretty hardcore one. He had a level of romantic interest in me in the beginning, transiently because I didn’t share it, so we focused what was shared. But we discussed the possibility of such connection between us (and in general, between people with our personality traits) extensively. Briefly, it would definitely take a lot of work and patience on both ends to make that sort of relationship work because we have very different values and needs in many domains pertaining to romantic relationships. I think it is not impossible and I may consider it with someone else in the future, but with this guy friendship is very satisfying. If you had so many relationships with narcs, I imagine a normal would be a breeze in comparison in terms of problem areas, but perhaps not as attractive at start.

        1. kel says:

          Maybe I’ve been around different types of narcs than you, but I’m floored often times by how well they do things and how quickly. Some are perfectionists. They like nice things and they have an image, they have high standards.

          I used to think dating normals or empaths wouldn’t be as exciting after narcs. But I see it just the opposite now, because I see all the problems constantly whirling around inside and outside narcissists, and it’s not attractive at all. Relationships with narcs means you live well, but there’s always something missing, and uncertainty, and things you’re going to keep hidden and not share with family or friends. Normals are just people, like everyone else, but without a host of issues like narcissists have. My narcissists seemed to choose me, so I look forward to weeding past them, to find real people.

          I can see that in you, as you’ve described yourself, because you have a very strong personality that I think seems like you’re a normal edging toward something else.

        2. njfilly says:


          Very interesting comment. Please explain:
          1) Why is it interesting and a good lesson being on a blog with so many empaths?
          2) What is the difference here to other blogs you are on? Also relative to empaths.
          3) What is your definition of hard core empath?


          1. Dorion says:


            1) Because I am not usually around many empaths in my life, historically I tend to both work and socialize with people who share my interests, and those interests are not the most typical empath catches. Of course there are some, like everywhere, but I also more typically tend to gravitate toward people who are in my range of the spectrum, when it comes to closer association. My best friend now is an empath, but he is really the only one of that kind I interact with frequently and deeply outside of this blog. It’s been a very interesting experience for both of us, how positively we affect each-other and learn very valuable things through the friendship and as we dissect and analyze everything (he’s also very introspective but in a much less detached way than I am). I met him one one of the forums several years ago. Good lesson, because I have a goal to improve my own empathy and communication skills involving that and it is very helpful to see the naturals.
            2) The difference is primarily the topic – all of the groups I have engaged in have different main themes. This is my first more intense participation in one about narcissism. Also the format – the other sites are more typical forum formats, which is definitely easier to navigate for commenters.
            3) It just meant to emphasize how strong his empathic characteristics are, nothing else meaningful.

          2. njfilly says:


            Thank you for your response. Very interesting. I have only just learned about narcissists and empaths so this is all new to me, and I have no idea who I have encountered or interacted with most; either empaths or narcissists. Either in the past or currently.

      10. Dorion says:


        I more just think that I have very high standards myself and have been around many people with similar values ~my whole life, that’s how I probably see more diversity and many less than excellent narcs. My own standards and perfectionism are things I’ve been trying to work on because they often slow me down, make me feel insecure and second guess myself, and hard to stand up to it on a consistent basis. I also don’t tend to idealize people (at least at this point of my life), so pretty much never see anyone as super special, phenomenal and what have you – for me, we are all people with both lots of strengths and weaknesses and one individual’s performance also usually varies a lot over time. Some are better at hiding their issues and show less vulnerability for sure but that has its own costs.

        I think if you are past that phase when you were primarily excited by intensity and romantic ideals, you would probably indeed find a non-narc more satisfying, not only because of the lack of manipulation and abuse but also because of a different type of realistic maturity and sense of security. There are many intense, engaging people among normals and empaths as well, it is perhaps just more augmented with reality and would give you less of the illusion of that Golden Period.

        I am strong and quite resilient in some ways but not so much in other ways, definitely have my insecurities and issues, not even just a few. I think we all do. I often chuckle at the term “normal” we use here to describe someone who is neither a narc nor an empath because I have so many highly unconventional features and issues with fitting into majority that it feels everything but normal. I definitely would not assume that a person who identifies as a normal on HG’s narc-empath spectrum has necessarily less issues, including interpersonal ones. We may have less around the characteristics of those two poles but the psyche and human nature is immensely complex… seemingly endless room for challenges.

        I think I’m going to step away from Narcsite for a while because I’ve been here too much in the past two days and am not getting things done 🙂

  9. NarcDiscarder says:

    I don’t post on here much and apologies in advance for the long post, and did have a consultation with HG at the beginnig of the year, which was really useful. I don’t care what school of narc he is, but if there was one he would graduate with a masters from the school of the bat shit crazies.

    I did armed with knowledge stop seeing him at the beginning of the year, and stupidly went back a couple of months later – hell hath no fury like a narcissist you have dropped and then gone back to – it was horrendous. He enlightned me about his other friends, I got spat on during one encounter, not too mention he looked like a complete fruitcake during the act.

    I was always kept away from friends and family, but strangely him being a restaurant owner, had no problem with me going there to start with, but when he became even more manipulative I was told to text first.
    I was always told to text (not call), which someimes I did ignore, and he did fail to control me, I did not see him when he demanded, I orchestrated it so that it was conveninent for me, I told him about my past relationships (not many), told him of the amazing weekends and holidays that I go on, and how successful business was.

    I knew from day one he was after my money / assets and my inheritance from the moment I met him. He never asked for money, but conversations were always aimed that I should go and enjoy it with someone else. He never future faked, said that he did not want a relation ship yet was separated / working with his much older wife.

    Yet after all of this the ‘Golden Period’ was short but then I suspected his BS from the beginning, yet this went on and off for about a year. I saw him for the evening and night about every 2 or 3 weeks, yet at the beginning of the year when he was short of money this was about 2 times a week, I never spent a penny on him to this day.

    The narc was an acquaintance / family friend for years, and tried to hook up with me a couple of years ago, but I was not interested perhaps this is why the golden period was so short.

    We are now no contact after a huge falling out a couple of months ago, yet I dont want to see him, I just feel sorry for him – I received a malign text hoover last week, and did not respond, he is now blocked.

    My question is HG if I may would the narc hide a ‘candidate IPSS’, and would he spend the whole night if just a DSL just every few weeks?

    1. HG Tudor says:

      1. Yes.
      2. Yes.

      1. NarcDiscarder says:

        A massive thanks HG, your site no only offers clarity to the extent of what we are dealing with, it give an honest outlook to the way we are treated and perceived by these individuals. I can honestly say the fog is lifting, I have not reacted to the nasty message, just blocked and am truly the happiest I have been in a year, not to mention this blog / consultation has stopped me becoming manipulated even more but I was too savvy to get ripped off by this idiot, it is now job done!

        1. HG Tudor says:

          You are welcome, ND.

  10. Believer says:


  11. Omj says:

    Mine lasted 12 months – last time he said that he was really hooked for a year and he added that I have been lucky they rarely make it more than 3 months …
    I was thinking to myself – because they saw through way before me …

  12. V. says:

    Great idea for a site. And thanks for the nice read.

  13. MB says:

    “it creates a place which the victim strives to return to (and which the narcissist will reinstate if he or she sees fit)”

    You can flip a switch and bring it back in an instant if you want to. So frustrating!

    1. Jennifer says:

      Mine lasted a very long….16 months. The current supply I guess was his side supply the whole time we were together. I just found out all the truth this last september. I wasn’t discarded. I broke it off with him….about 10 breakups. I am an empath..recently revealed in therapy. .and I am educated…I was an ICU RN…I almost lost my career, home, family over my Narc. He drained me physically, emotionally, mentally, and financially. I had to go to rehab for alcohol…twice, I am being monitored in my practice, I am back with my ex husband now, and I am healing and very blessed. I exposed my narc to his current supply…he blocked me on facebook and did the silent treatment. My closure came from his girlfriend. We fought via text, “triangulation” but she is a nasty trashy girl with no education, felon herself, and honestly someone I would not compete with for him and I shouldn’t have to or had to. She don’t care….and knows who he is and stays. He discarded her to come back to me and she went back to him after I had enough. This guy is toxic and a low spectrum narc. She had no job, money, or home. He is a felon too. The red flags were there. My intuition…I am grateful for got me out finally. He recHe was highly charming, and I tried to see the good in him but he had a lot of chaos in his life, baby mama drama…etc. I found you because I read your article on the supernova empath. That’s what I did, I would blast that false ego and block him, call him on his bullshit and lies, and he would rage. Then play the victim. He recently unblocked me on facebook and left his messenger open so I verbally attacked him about his trashy whore, and acted like him. Then he deactivated his account. He makes me sick.

Vent Your Spleen! (Please see the Rules in Formal Info)

This site uses Akismet to reduce spam. Learn how your comment data is processed.