Where’s My Hoover?

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The hoover. The useful word that is utilised to describe the classic move of our kind to bring you back under our control, our spell and into our world once again. Of course we apply several different hoovers during the course of your entanglement with us, but let’s focus on the hoover which takes place following the cessation of the formal relationship between you and our kind. When I make reference to the formal relationship, I mean the concept (in your world) of you and us being together as intimate partners. Of course in our world, the relationship will last forever because of the unwritten contract you unwittingly entered into when you became entangled with us. This means we are entitled to draw fuel from you until such time as one of us draws our last breath and in that sense there is this Narcissistic Relationship and then there is the Formal Relationship, the latter being the conventional perception of when two people are involved with one another. Accordingly, once the Formal Relationship has come to an end, either through your escape or more frequently through the discard, there are then three potential hoovers which can occur.


  1. The Initial Grand Hoover;
  2. The Benign Follow-up Hoover; and
  3. The Malign Follow-up Hoover

You find yourself in the situation that the Formal Relationship has ended but where is the hoover? You have perhaps realised what you have been involved with and undertaken some reading and there is repeated mention of this hoover which is meant to happen but so far there has been nothing? Why is that? How come you have not been hoovered by your narcissist? Many of you would be delighted to find yourself in such a position, able to focus on yourself rather than worrying about being confronted by our kind and subjected to a hoover. The apparent failure of our kind to hoover however does cause victims to, in accordance with their nature, to then wonder why this has not happened and in turn blame themselves.

“He hasn’t hoovered me. He obviously doesn’t think I am worth wanting back.”

“I haven’t heard anything from him. I feel cheated that he hasn’t tried to hoover me.”

“I want him to hoover me. There are things I want to say to him now I know better what has happened.”

“There hasn’t been a hoover. That makes me feel invalidated.”

“He has been silent. I want him to win me back.”

Accordingly, if no hoover has been forthcoming you are still left feeling bewildered and miserable. The effects of our behaviour are far-reaching indeed. It may appear odd to the external observer that you would want to have interaction again with someone who has abused you, but there are several reasons why victims want that hoover to happen.

  1. You want the Formal Relationship to begin again. You are still caught up in the emotional sea of believing that things can be put right, that somehow the problems that occurred can be overcome and fixed. If we hoover you, you will willingly submit so we are together again.
  2. An opportunity to resist the hoover in order to let our kind know that you are not to be messed with anymore. A statement of intent, if you will.
  3. A chance to get things off your chest. You want to say your piece to us. It is often a case of asking “why” but you may also want to lash out at us as a consequence of the way you have been treated.
  4. An opportunity to let us know that you know what we are. That occasion to look us in the eye and tell us you know precisely what we are in order to gauge our reaction to this revelation and empowerment on your part.
  5. To tie up loose ends. There may be financial matters outstanding, there might be possessions to hand over, post and so on.
  6. The chance to be validated. Surely if we meant all those things we said during the golden period then we must want you again. That has to be right hasn’t it?

Subject to the school of narcissist you are dealing with, we have varying degrees of awareness about these factors which means we know that you are susceptible to our potential hoover and that it may well meet with success, leaving aside other factors such as the type of narcissist we are and the effort we will expend on the hoover.

You want the hoover to happen, but it does not appear to have taken place. Why is that?

  1. You may have been hoovered but not realised. The post escape/discard hoovers are not just there to bring you back to us. Sometimes we do not want that to happen but we would rather obtain fuel from you.
  2. The Initial Grand Hoover is always deployed to win you back and resume the Formal Relationship;
  3. The Benign Follow-Up Hoover (which comes after the IGH) may seek the resumption of the Formal Relationship but is also deployed purely to draw positive fuel from you and/or to fact find;
  4. The Malign Hoover seeks only to draw negative fuel

Accordingly, two out of the three post escape/discard hoovers may purely be about drawing fuel from you or fact-finding. Thus, if you think that a hoover is only about starting the relationship again you may have not thought that the telephone call which came from our number but we did not speak when you answered was not a hoover. It was. Fuel would have been drawn from the manner in which you answered (a nervous hello, an angry answer or a hopeful salutation) but it was also done to fact find. Would you answer? How would you answer? This is then used to formulate the nature of further hoovers. The sending of an invitation to sign up to a particular application does not cause the resumption of the Formal Relationship but it may draw Thought Fuel and is certainly a fact finding step designed to see how you will respond. Accordingly, you may well have been hoovered but not realised it.

  1. The hoover may not actually come from us. You may be hoovered by proxy through one of our lieutenants or a member of our coterie asking you questions about what you are up to, whether you have thought about us, how you are getting on and so forth. This information along with your reaction will be relayed to us and we gather fuel and a fact find from it.
  2. We may have contacted you directly and been charming but not encouraged you to come back to us or we may have been nasty. Either way, these are hoovers and are designed to draw fuel from you even though there was no attempt to start the Formal Relationship again.
  3. You may not actually be giving us any opportunity to hoover you. There are two instances when this arises: –
  4. You are contacting us so often and repeatedly in order to get answers and/or start the relationship again that we do not need to hoover you. You won’t leave us alone.
  5. You have placed yourself in a position whereby we are not able to contact you at all.
  6. It is too early. When you have been discarded we are infatuated and pre-occupied with your replacement as primary source of fuel. Therefore, we have no need to hoover you. We are focused on this person and they are meeting our fuel needs. You have been deleted from our mind and therefore there is no need for us to hoover you. This could last for a number of months before you even pop into our heads again. Many victims expect the hoover to happen within a week or so of discard. This might happen but it is more often the case that a longer time period will elapse between discard and hoover.
  7. You remain out of the spheres of influence. You do not do anything to come up on our radar. You either have not appeared in our sixth sphere of influence (our thoughts) yet or if you have we may have decided against instigating a hoover because it is less feasible, the energy involved is not something we wish to expend or we may have an alternative person to hoover who is a better prospect than you (for example the ex before you who lives nearer to us).

Thus there are many reasons why that hoover has not yet happened. Can you make a hoover happen? Yes, you can. If you want it to happen, you are best designing a way to enter one of our spheres of influence but understand, for the reasons outlined above, it may not happen when you want it to, but it will at some point. After all, in accordance with our total desire for control, we want the hoover to be when we decide, not you.



  1. Hi – I recently started educating myself about NPD. I used to date one, and after a horrible breakup, I reached out to one of his exes who told me that she considered him to have NPD and other personality disorders. Now I see it clearly, and he did discard me, and hoover me for some cycles – always giving me the least logical reasons about why we couldn’t be together, that of course had to do with me and my personality. It was horrible. This last time, he involved his mother, and gave me the silent treatment in front of her, while humiliating me (we had to meet for him to return my house keys). It was the worse experience of my life when they both treated me horribly – after all what I did for him, help him personally, professionally, that very same day he told me he loved me etc.
    He remains friends with ALL of his exes, and that was a huge issue in our relationship, and other issues typical of NPD.
    My question is as follows to any of you who may have an opinion or have gone through the same:
    He reached out sending an email explaining “his reasons” for the breakup. Of course mostly blaming me, but not without sweet talking about how I had taught him what was a “real loving relationship” and offering to be friends and any additional explanation about what he wrote. It has been 8 days, and I haven’t replied and I don’t plan to – my question to you is, why is he offering to be friends? (if he discarded me so viciously and even onboarded his mom’s help), why is he “welcoming the opportunity” to be my friend?

    And if I don’t reply, would he try again? Thank you for your help.

    1. To exert control over you by :-

      1. Maintaining a façade of being a ‘good guy’
      2. To gain fuel from you
      3. To keep you onside so you do not interfere in his new relationship
      4. To tenderise you for a return (if required) at a later date.

  2. Today I wax talking with mutual friend who said you are not gonna believe who. I talked to today of course it was Narcy Narc. This person doesn’t normally speak to narcy narc via phone only thru text or social media but somehow there was some need to speak by phone in which case details about what he’s been up to were shared. Of course this upset but I tried hard to hide it Why do I feel like this was a proxy Hoover ?

    Is this a proxy Hoover ?

      1. Oh boy all this time I’ve been think I’m on the shelf and he pays me no mind but he has been keeping up through her.

        I do not know what to do. The friend is not someone I can go no contact with right away. I have begun to distance myself and now that I know she is a portal to him, I will no longer tell her anything about my personal life. I can’t just cut her off without causing many questions and commentary. I’m just trying to slip away. I have a terrible feeling I’m never going to be rid of him. Even when I’ve thought he’s gone he hasn’t been gone. He doesn’t speak to me but he hasn’t been gone

        Is this just an attempt to let me know he’s around ? Or is it attempt to get me to contact ?

      2. HG, can one assume that when a mutual friend shares details of narcy’s doings (who it was with and that it was visiting close to where I live) that narcy shared with them that it is probably a proxy Hoover, i.e. the narc knows it will get back to you via them? Also, why would a narc even want you to know this? It’s now with an IPPS and I’m long gone. Thks.

        1. 1. Yes it is usually (but not always) a Hoover by Proxy.
          2. The IPPS may be in devaluation so you are back in play. If they are not, it is a Relationship Bulletin and is being done to triangulate.

          1. By relationship bulletin and triangulate, you mean they are getting thought fuel by imagining it will upset you? Then again, it was told to a previous ex (lol, so many of them) so it may have been a Hoover/triangulation aimed at her!

          2. 1. Thought Fuel – yes.
            2. They may gain Proximate Fuel dependent on how you react to this provocation.

          3. Kelly,
            This happened to me too. A proxy Hoover. When my MMRN (known as Piano Boy here) had his 2nd baby he blocked me from seeing the pics on FB while he silented me. One of his friends texted me. “Hey did you hear Piano Boy’s wife had a baby?” I was all “umm no”.
            Friend: “it’s on Facebook!”
            Me: “I don’t see it on his Facebook” (I saw other posts but not that)
            Friend: “oh wow, really? I’m sorry to hear that. Why would be not include you?”
            Me: “who knows who cares!”
            Friend: “well I know he’s cheated on his wife before so maybe it was to keep the peace with her…”

            This friend does not know (from me anyway) about my intimate relationship with Piano Boy. But after that I’m willing to bet the friend knows somehow (I was DLS). Why text me unless it was to communicate to me by proxy of the birth of his son?

            This is the shit they do after all isn’t it?

          4. Thanks, HG. They’ll have to stick to thought fuel. No other reaction from me whatsoever. I’m healing slowly but surely.

          5. But in my case HG it was my friend that initiated the call with him but he has been been very cozy with her despite my vague warnings to her. I feel like he’s trying to get to me or get a reaction from me thru her would you still consider this a proxy Hoover even though he didn’t initiate the phone call?

            I am a shelved ipss and have been ignored and blocked on and off for a year.

          6. Ok HG so I don’t respond to the hoover. And guess what? In the wee hours of the morning a receive another fake friend request. Now to be honest there are no obvious clues it’s him but is this likely to be him?

            Is this what narcs do when you fail to contact them?

          7. Odd, I received a couple of fake friend requests. I investigated and found their pages looked fake. Assumed they were scammers – I did not imagine they were hoovers! Why a fake FB request anyway, unless they are blocked? Never bothered to block the narcex on FB, just unfriended, as I don’t fear it seeing my life if it wants too – nothing to declare. Would that ever be a problem?

          8. Oh my god ladies and gentlemen never ever doubt your suspicions. I have wondered if I have been being proxy hoovered thru a friend and sure enough it was confirmed today. When I first made this post I couldn’t tell if it was because I thought maybe he’s just seeking fuel from her and she happens to be my friend too but oh no more has come out since and she told me something he said don’t tell anyone (which means make sure and tell Lori) knowing it would upset me and after my friend told she said I’m not sure why he told me any of this stuff and all I could think was I know why.

            I will not contact him. I will not. My question is HG if I stay quiet no reaction does he stop or does it get worse ?

          9. It depends on a variety of factors and I do not have enough information from you to establish the factual matrix. I recommend you organise a consultation so you can provide me with more information and I can provide you with more detailed answers.

    1. Lori you should make sure your friend know to never discuss any details about you, your live, or anything about you in any way with your Narc ex. This is something I learned the hard way. And if you cannot trust your friends to do that you might want to consider severing contact with any of those mutual contacts as the Narc will attempt to either use them against you in the future often by putting out subtle slanderous remarks or use them to keep tabs on you or to relay info to you to keep you attacked. It is like cancer sometimes the best approach is to completely cut it out. That is just some unsolicted advice.

    2. I though I posted this question but now I can’t remember so here it is; I did not respond to what appears to be a proxy hoover. A few days ago I had the passing thought : I wonder how long till I get a fake friend request ? And voila a few days later I get one. There are no clues it’s him on this one. Just a bunch of relationship memes about finding the right relationship blah blah blah eye roll. Are the odds high this is him ?

  3. Hi guys,
    I just want to say first of all we are all victims. Victims of lies, victims of falseness, victims of our own inability to see our worth, and perhaps our own falseness. Not out of stupidity, or blindness…maybe just out of Naivety, and Ignorance about our own selves. We also have something I truly believe narcissist’s lack: HOPE. We have HOPE and with that LOVE, belief and vulnerability come with those two big words. We are brave….
    Let’s remember to be kind to each other on this message board….We all our suffering and we all want to heal…..we were the brave ones…anyone who steps into the arena of LOVE will inevitably get their ass kicked a few times.

  4. HG, after all this time, knowing who I was entangled with, and the dangers associated with a hoover (I’m recovering slowly but surely), the lack of a hoover continues to make me feel worthless, irrelevant and discarded. Even tho I left!!! Some have said if they don’t hoover, you win! Can you articulate this for me, please? I long to be free.

      1. Kelly

        A hoover is not a compliment or a sign they care etc.
        Not getting one is more significant.
        At least they are aware you are not a fool waiting around for them to grace your life again.
        You are no longer easy fuel you are getting stronger and they know it.


        1. I agree with Kiki, being hoovered is an insult. Hoovers are not only romantic, they are done by N family members and past N platonic relationships. It means they believe they can do what they want and when they are hoovering it is an application of control and manipulation, there is no love in that, it s an awful thing to hoover someone in one’s matrix.
          The difference between a hoover and an act of consideration, care and curiosity is that you are dealing with a narcissist. Therefore it is a hoover and not an inquiry or a consideration like with a normal person.

          1. My head knows what you’re saying is 100% right. But I can’t get my heart around it yet. My heart cries: a Hoover means you were thought about! A Hoover means you are completely totally forgotten! A Hoover means you still exist to them!

          2. Oh, me too, Kelly. At least partly. The reminder is as much for me, but I do believe what I said!

          3. If you are thought about and hovered, it’s bevause they think you’re stupid. That sounds harsh but it’s true and when they do it they are laughing at you on the inside. They truly think you are stupid when you fall for it will lead to your devaluation and even faster with each round of this because after all how can they have an ounce of respect for you when you allowed them to treat you so bad then you take them back. The ones they sort of pine for are the ones that will have nothing to do with them. I think it triggers those feelings of wanting that attention and love from someone who ignored them in childhood. It’s familiar to them. That’s the whole irony of this.

          4. I hear you, Lori. And it makes sense. Except that, is it not rather that they don’t hoover you because they never think of you in the first place? And, how can they know you’ll have nothing to do with them if they don’t hoover and you don’t get that (amazing) opportunity to turn them down?

            It would be great to think there was someway you could get some sort of respect from a narc – either for walking away, or refusing a hoover. I suppose that’s because you once loved them. But sadly, that respect will never happen. I’d settle for it, even begrudgingly: you figured me out, got the hell out and stayed out! But I doubt that is possible in NeverNarcyland.

          5. It is possible. Its not respect per se but you become “elevated “ so to speak in their minds a goal to take down again in essence you become “worthy” of their time. If you eventually fall for and a codependent eventually does the cycle wlll start all over again only this time it’s faster. This is where a codependent really gets sucked in the the repeated Hoover cycle because they struggle with worthiness this taps a primal wound in them too

          6. This kind of the dance between the codependent and the narc. Both individual have similar wound and they feel familiar to each other. The Codeoendent will have great difficulty leaving the narcissist and they really struggle with the Hoovers returning to the Narc repeatedly in an attempt to make it right one more time. Codependents inherently believe they can fix the damaged. We define our worth in fixing others .i know this because I am one and have 2 relationships with Narcissists

            If you aren’t being hoovered it’s because you fuel got less portent or they got sick of a flavor they once loved

          7. Which makes it sound like we’re not being hoovered because we’re not good enough anymore. Like we’re stale, boring.

          8. Well yes that’s true. That is the essence of narcissism your supply becomes stale and less potent no matter how much or how good it is they will tire of it which is often why other people look around and say he dumped you for her ?????

            They have to have that new victim. It makes them feel alive. They only know that they feel alive with this new prospect and hope that she will be the one and that you make them feel empty and bored

          9. Yet, now that I think of it, narcex has come back three times – across many years tho. The first couple of times I was far too young and naive to even begin to understand, which is likely why I got caught again so many years later. So perhaps in this case, Narcit forgets that you were boring, lol! Either way, this time I dumped it’s miserable ass, and I ain’t ever goin’ back. It’s getting old before its time, an all out drunk who’s either three sheets to the wind, high or both! Once intelligent but now with a two-bit job and little money. A mooch. Its looks are gone – within the past year. It looks like hell. Last time I ran into it, there were, like these sores all over its face – possibly drugs? I was trying to figure out what that could be. I’ve heard crystal meth can do that do you? Either way, not my problem any more.

      2. HG, I guess I’m asking if its true that I “win” if I’m not hoovered? For all its attendant horrors, being hoovered often feels like we at least still exist. We are not forgotten! Its ridiculous, our logical thinking knows. Btw, I left. I was not about to be part of anyone’s harem.

          1. Yes, we escape. But can we call it a win? Not sure we could ever win because the narc can never lose. It scars the soul.

    1. Narcs always return. It can take sometimes years. But they always come back. It helped me to understand that the narc wants to destroy you. They want to kill you. Use the hoover time to escape and find people who support you.

    2. So I haven’t been here for a while but I received all these responses in my inbox today so I was curious. @Kelly Just because you don’t know they are hoovering doesn’t mean they aren’t. Mine did for years and I had no idea until later, and it was pretty damn scary to find out the psycho was keeping tabs on me for decades. I myself have not heard from him in a very long time and don’t expect to. I have basically erased my presence off the internet as I believe mine is actually crazy. But regardless this is my advice to you, read up on Narcissism, if you can start seeing a therapist, and NO CONTACT. Takes time but after awhile the thought of the POS will disgust you. Life is better on the other side sweetie, keep your head up and repeat after me- “I know my value!”

        1. OH he contacted me and tried to get back together with me. Turned out he had been stalking me on social media once I moved overseas all those years back. Anyway that is why I have no online presence now. Dude is crazy and had not changed at all in over 20 years, it was weird. But you know looking back on it all I’m glad I didn’t know what he was doing, bc if I had it prob would have drove me crazy. It was scary finding out how much he knew about my life, we take for granted how much information we put out there. It also didn’t help we were both in the military and he was able to track me with military official email services and people finders.
          I’m not in the Military anymore so that is no longer an issue though. But yeah just talking to him and being like wow this guy is a joke and had not changed at all, that was real eye opening. He was pathetic. I did blast his stalking all over SM before I went offline, which I think is good bc that way everyone who knows me knows not to give out any info to this guy and to safe guard information about me.
          People were actually very supportive. I mean it was embarrassing, but I was really shocked at how many people had had similar experiences and how kind they were. So now noone asks why I don’t have facebook or twitter bc they know. It just makes it easier when everyone knows what the deal is. Bc at the end of the day the most important thing is my safety and the safety of my loved ones. So dont’ be afraid to tell people what is going on and if they react bad, screw them, bc keeping secrets is what allows bad people the ability to get to you and to do bad things. It allows them to the ability to create the narrative. God Bless and remember YOUR VALUE- it is limitless!

          1. Love your strength, Sandy! Thanks for the encouragement. It’s crazy when we’re still in a phase that we would prefer some sort of hoover to being ignored! But we’ll get there. Keep in touch?

  5. Dear HG
    I was discarded for the 2nd time in 3years 5 weeks ago very fast after i stopped reacting negatively to her abuse, instead i just sat silent and did not react, and i could see how much that frustrated her.
    I have spoken to her a few times and seen her a few times after the discard and she tells me she still love me.
    Not sure if she has a new primary source, if so she’s keeping it a secret.
    A few days ago she texted me about an event that takes place in 2weeks and startet hinting about going with me to this event.
    I agreed and told her we could go, so she have now booked a hotelroom for us that weekend.
    Im curious learn what to expect, if it is a hoover to try to get back or could it be her trying to use me in a triangulation to get a potencial new primarysource jealous?
    Can i also expect her to cancel the trip right before we gi, just to try to hurt me?
    Thank you in advance for an reply

    1. Hello Geir,

      1. You may not have been disengaged from since a hoover just 5 weeks after the apparent disengagement suggests that you were not disengaged from as it would be too soon for her to do so, if there had been disengagement for the purposes of her being with a new IPPS. Thus, you may have had a silent treatment instead and this is a hoover following that; or
      2. You were not the IPPS and you are a Shelf IPSS and she put you on the shelf and has taken you off.

      I need more information about your dynamic with this individual to establish where you are in the fuel matrix, to understand what has been happening recently and then I can give you an accurate response. I recommend you organise a consultation in that regard.

  6. The reason why I hope hoover is that it would help me to get rid of the doubts that maybe she was not a narc after all and maybe it was me who acted wrong. Hoover attempt would prove that she is what she seems to be. Of course my therapist, another therapist and HG have said that she is a narc, but at the same time I know that their opinion is based on the information I have shared + couple of emails between me and this woman. This is annoying. But, one of those therapist gave a good advice that I should use these emails we shared as evidence.

    1. Anon, the fact that you are doubting yourself is an important sign itself. Most people who were involved with a narcissist do question their own perceptions a lot (as a consequence of having been subjected to intense gaslighting).

  7. HG – I dated a narcissist for 5 months. He discarded me out of the blue. Yet he texted me periodically to tell me about his mother who was ill. He began his digs and degrading about 2 weeks after the breakup and tried stupid tactics like “I never knew I would kill being an asshole,” and “I saw an accident this morning – looked like your car,” etc. We eventually hooked up about 6 weeks after the discard – he was sweet and loving, but he said he didn’t no if we could have a relationship. He said he really is okay with being alone. Needless to say, we tried friends with benefits, but I was too emotionally involved. Yet…every time I contacted him – he responded immediately and each time we hooked up. This last weekend I texted him and low and behold we hooked up again. This time he said all he wants to do is have sex with me. He said the sex is really good and he doesn’t want to give it up. Of course I said,”Yeah okay.” I should have said, “No way.” We ended up in a fight, because I’m too emotional. I asked him if he still loved me and he said, “No.” I kicked him out – told him to FO and said I hated him. The next morning I texted and said I don’t hate you…his response in short was, “you need to move on – forget you ever met me and lose my number.” I didn’t respond. It’s been 7 days and I haven’t heard a thing. Can I assume toxic cycle is done?

    1. No, you cannot make such an assumption. If you wish to learn more and understand what you can do to reduce the risk of being hovered, I recommend that you book a consultation.

      1. Hg when they say this shit about “you need to move on and forget me “ they ding mean a word of that do they?

        1. Yes they do at the point of saying it. One second later, dependent on various factors, it may all change.

      1. Erin,

        Sounds like M.R.H. (just ended a year and a half relationship with him 3 weeks ago). We were boyfriend and girlfriend back in college and we reconnected online April 4th, 2017 while his mother was still sick with uterine cancer (she died August 10th,2017). He said that he had been trying to find me online for years, and said that he never should have let me go, that I was the most amazing woman he has ever known, that he always fantasizes about me, yada yada. He was also newly divorced (I was going through a divorce at the time) and our attraction for each other was immediate and intense. We talked a lot, and inevitably started a very romantic, highly erotic and steamy sexual relationship both physically and online. However, he made it clear that he wasn’t ready for a formal relationship, that he just wanted to see how things go. That was okay with me, however I now know that he was involved with a married woman from Tucson AZ (he’s a lawyer and she and he would hook up whenever he had a convention out of town) and at least 2 other women IN town at the same time he and I were hot and heavy. One of these womens’ names was Erin. He has horrible nicknames for his conquests (though he swears he didn’t do that with me🙄— yeah right) He callously makes fun of Erins’ drug habits and refers to her as “Alpha Whore” because, he said she was the first sex he had since his ex wife left him. He does BJJ and MMA, and the woman that he hooked up with from there this past year, he calls her “Ninja Whore.” He’s horrible. I hate to imagine what he calls me😥.
        I am now, too, fighting cancer. When he first found out last April,he acted caring, even seemed to go out of his way to create good memories with me last July, taking me out to eat and shooting his guns at the gun range. It was wonderful. And then, July 12…. nothing. He simply disappeared for two weeks. I was heart broken and sick (emotionally AND physically) and tried to get a reason why. WHY? When I needed him to be just a friend the most, he left with no warning or explanation. When he he finally DID contact me, he acted like he didn’t know the horrible thing he did! Needless to say, I lost it. I sent him a scathing text saying, in so many words, goodbye. I haven’t heard from him since. I’m in the hospital undergoing radiation treatment now, and am grieving the loss not just of him, but of the lover and friend I thought I had known for over 22 years.

        After reading HG Tudor ( thank you Erin, and you Mr. Tudor), I think I understand now why he left me. Among other things, because there is a good chance that I will not be alive next year, he will no longer be a fuel source for him… ever. In his mind, what use has he for me now?
        I’m sorry you had to go through that s#*t, Erin. I hope you can find the strength to stay No Contact. And I must apologize again, for I am weak. Because even with everything I know about MRH, at this last crossroads in my life, I still love him, and wish he was still here at least as a friend in what remains of my life.

        Love, Spirit and Blessings,
        LoriAnn Mooney

    2. No, he’s not done. He’s just giving you a “cooling off” period (what JN coined for me because I was “too emotional” also).
      What frustrates me is how you described the behavior of this man towards you, seems to be defined in the dating world as a “f*ck boy”. They come and go for sex on their terms with no regard for your needs or how it affects you and because they decide they do not want a relationship, this behavior seems sanctioned. It is completely maddening and much more layered with hurtful, unhealthy narcissism than what people realize.

  8. I got a hoover about 6 months after physical distance due to moving and being blocked on social media, on Valentine’s day. It was addressed as a Valentine’s message and it contained the usual: “if i let him impregnate me then we will have the happy ending i rejected with my bad (stream of insult, insult) behaviour”. I only get the pregnancy narrative around malign hoovers, he never says anything else, then disappears again, or not, who knows.

  9. I am an ipss recently shelved. I block him once then unblocked him after 10 days. The more I read the more I know he’s got to go. If I block him, will he smear me as a shelfed ipss? We are in some online groups together and I am trying to avoid this

    1. Possibly, albeit the likelihood of a smear is reduced for an IPSS. It depends on what you do, how you do it and the timing.

    2. Lisa Honey he is going to smear you no matter what. You can’t control that, it is just what they do. Do try to appease him, would you try to appease a rattle snake? No, just get away. Cut off all ties and never look back. It works.

  10. HG, I live in a different state than my exN and the last time we saw each other, I was incredibly drunk and sleep deprived and I angered him a great deal by my behavior. We had been off and on for 15+ years, in the same state and long distance at times. He was a huge fan of the silent treatment, and blocking, often for no reason, or when I upset him by having feelings. He lied and cheated on everyone and anyone he dated, including me and even went so far as keeping an engagement secret from me and kept my existence a secret from her (if I had known, I would have left years ago but did not find out until after). He has stolen money from me, owes me several thousand dollars, which he refuses to pay and the relationship is toxic which he loved to blame me for (even though he had to move to get away from the people who screwed over and basically start his life over more than once). I was the only one who remained in his life because I felt sorry for him (typical I can change you mentality). The reason I’m writing is given how angry he was with me the last time we were together, can I assume that he will not hoover? It has been 7 months now and I’m sure he’s got several NS, it’s how he works. He told me last we spoke 7 months ago I am drama, crazy, need help, and every accusatory word he could think of and ditched me that night knowing how out of character I was acting based on being up for 2 days straight and having had enough of the lies and finally cracking for that small window of time. I did send one email a few months back to which he responded to with complete indifference and I have not heard anything since. I do not know if I am blocked or not but just would like your insight on if he will hoover again (he did every time in the past) but this was by far our biggest blow up ever and I embarrassed him (I assume). Something similar happened years ago, and I did not hear from him for a year, but this was worse. In other words, can I let my guard down and know he’s gone for good? Thank you for your time.

    1. Hello Ginger. No, you should not assume he will not hoover.

      1. His response when you last saw one another might have been a response to Challenge Fuel (see the article Fuel, Fight or Flight) and therefore this will not raise the hoover bar.
      2. If his response was as a consequence of him being wounded, this will raise the Hoover Bar BUT other factors at the time of the relevant Hoover Trigger may lower the hoover bar and thus override the effect of the wounding, so a hoover takes place.
      3. You should not assume that he is gone for good. If you did wound him, the impact of that wounding will diminish over time. Whether he will hoover when there is a Hoover Trigger, will depend on matters such as the school of narcissist he is, whether you are with somebody else, how easy it is to hoover you (for instance is there an electronic route to do so or not), if there is not electronic route the fact you are in different states will raise the hoover bar, how his fuel matrix is set-up, whether there are other obstacles and other factors besides.
      If you implement a robust no contact regime you will reduce considerably the risk of a hoover.

  11. Hi I just wanted to report back. It seems public humiliation DOES WORK. 3 years and no contact after 20 years of stalking. They don’t like for everyone to know their BS. So my advice to everyone is that once you are finally done, and I mean YOU are done dealing with these people- BLAST THEM to the world. Let everyone you know know who they are and make sure they know you did it. I can’t say this strongly enough – When you do it do it from a distance and make sure you are in a safe place they can not get to you. But yeah expose the shit out of them. As an Army chaplain once told me “These people are bullies, if you push back hard enough they will look for a new victim. Make them afraid of what you will do!” They can’t manipulate people if people know their game!

    1. 1. Exposure is a form of engagement with us. It will feed the emotional infection, accordingly exposure is not an option for many victims who are susceptible to this infection and the surge in emotional thinking.
      2. It might only be done by suitably robust individuals (many are not as robust as they think they are) and after a sustained period of absolute no contact so the decision to expose is being made using logic. Here Sandy appears to refer to a 3 year period of no contact before taking such action. This is a suitable period of time to pass between the last interaction with the narcissist and the act of exposure to ensure it is being done through the application of logic.
      3. Be aware that not everybody will accept the exposure. Some will, some will not.
      4. Be aware that the act of exposure will be a Hoover Trigger. To avoid the Hoover Execution Criteria being reached and a hoover occurring (which is likely to be malign) ensure your no contact is solid. Sandy makes the point about being in a safe place.
      5. Be aware that even though you may not be hoovered you risk a further smear campaign.
      6. Ensure any exposure does not risk legal action – harassment, defamation etc.
      7. Consider the school of the narcissist as this will impact on any potential success of the exposure and response – The Lesser will be looking for a physical showdown, the Mid Ranger will look to smear in response and obtain sympathy and pity, The Greater will roll out a PR campaign to negate the exposure and hit back when you least expect it at a later time.
      8. Exposure can be very effective in causing massive wounding.

      1. HG I have a question, what if one was to speak very factually to the narcissist… And explained that they understand their viewpoint.. for example during a hoover when you hear ” I can’t loose you, you’re the only thing that matters to me” Etc etc. If one responded with ” well that makes a lot of sense. I have been a good source of (supply, fuel, attention) for you, and it is difficult for someone such as yourself to let go of that control” Or is being detailed like that completely worthless because most do not understand themselves or their reactions?

        I also once read some great advice for responses… One being telling them when they are insulting you to say ” you are entitled to your own version of reality” … I thought that was really powerful for the victim as they do need to accept that
        A) N don’t have to accept our version of reality; and
        B) we do not have to accept theirs. GOSO.

        1. You obey the first golden rule of freedom – once you know, you go. Remaining and continuing to engage with the narcissist is not in your best interests. Anybody that advocates continuing to engage is not providing you with the best approach for you.

          1. Thank you H.G.

            To clarify, I was more trying to get insight on what the best response to a face to face Hoover would be… for example they show up at your work or home waiting by your car or doorstep.

            Would having a matter of fact conversation with little or no emotion be a good response? Or is that generally a waste of time?

            I’ve read your article about approaching the Lesser and how it would be a waste of time because they will have no clue what you’re talking about etc. But what about someone who is more cognitive?

  12. Well that sucks. So I am thankfully not having to deal with the moron right now, if he ever shows up again I’m just going to ignore him. It is all just way to exhausting and weird, and I just can’t anymore. It’s just absurd to have to be reminded of stupid relationship choices you made decades ago when you where naive and dumb. Esp when the relationship didn’t even last that long and you didn’t have kids or anything. These people deserve their own special place in hell. They really should have classes on these things in high school you know!

    1. Hi, Sandy. Yes it boggles the mind that they never let go.

      Sounds like you also gushed some potent negative fuel for him. He’ll be gratified you care that much.

      Your normal angry response would only work on normal repentant people.

      Ignoring as you intend to in the future will send the proper message.

    2. It is beginning to be taught in High School. We all wish we knew then what we know now. The good news is, you know now and not later. Part of the good of all this, is we can inform others. Met w/ a wonderful friend today who is renting a room to a gal who’s involved w/ a Muslim socio/psychopath. She’s not in love, but her dad and brother want her to marry him and he has a green card. Her mom’s has been in process for 2.5 years. He stalks, controls, threatens, has hidden cameras, etc. etc. My friend kicked him out but is trying to help gal who is a Christian, along w/ her mom. She said Muslim culture is to stalk their women, but this is beyond that. He was rude and threatening to my friend, whose house it is and who is very level headed and generous. What I’ve learned from all this, I was able to “enlighten” her w/. Everyone agrees, if she has a fake 3 year marriage to get the green card (she’s not engaged to him yet), it will only become a nightmare and not worth it. But gal doesn’t know what she’s dealing with. I told friend. No sociopath is worth a green card.

  13. So HG let me ask u,
    last time I dealt with my POS ex when he confessed his undying love for me, I suggest an abusive men treatment program for him so that he could work out things with his current wife, sent her a book an abusive men, and pointed out his behavior that he was currently doing, trying to find a replacement (me) for his wife before she divorced him (which he said was happening, who knows if it was)
    which was in fact a form of emotional abuse.
    I also asked him how many people he slept with while we were married, he declined to answer, and informed him that i had cheated on him while we were married and how good it felt to finally clear the air on that, and yeah I never wanted to hear from him again.
    Would you say that that I was harsh enough to of burst his delusional fantasy of this wonderful relationship he made up in his head so that he is finally let it go?
    I’m usually a very nice person who never hurts people’s feelings but man 20years of this dick popping up after the worst most abusive marriage ever – you know.

  14. Why does my ex contact me every 2 to 3 years? It really has become a pattern. Is that normal? I checked with his other ex he doesn’t do that to her. So odd. It’s been over 20 years of this.

    1. It is a hoover. There will have been a hoover trigger and the hoover execution criteria are met, so a hoover occurs.

      1. There was never a trigger. I was in other countries most of the time. No contact, no mutual friends, no nothing. He had to work to find me. It’s weird. My me? I’m not the only victim. Why did he leave the others alone but continue to basically periodically stalk me?

        1. There will have been a trigger because he thought of you, you may not have done anything to cause it but that is why you always remain at risk of a hoover because of the sixth sphere.
          You don’t know for certain that he left the others alone. However, if that is the case, then in your instance there were Hoover Triggers and the Hoover Execution Criteria was met.

          1. Seems to me as if you’re the easy target. You clearly care what he thinks. You are receptive to his hoovers. I highly doubt you are the only ex he has contacted, but you come across as the easiest one to access as you are still hooked!

          2. Dissillusioned, that makes perfect sense and is probably the reason. I was thinking there was something about her he liked in that he missed how they got along, great sex, her looks, something about the way she was. He had to search for her in other countries, so went to great effort, even though he knew he probably wouldn’t be able to see her. My thinking was he preferred her over the others for the way she was. But you’re most likely right in that she “understood” him and was a safe place to land when he needed it – easy to hoover. And they had history so easier than a new target.

          3. Hi. Have I done enough to rid myself of my narc ex? I escaped 3 months ago and got him arrested for assault after his grand hoover attempt failed and I had a no contact order in place for 2 weeks which he obviously still tried to ignore by texting to push my boundries. so i ignored them. Had some nasty texts a month later but I didn’t react.. He has a new supply, probably already did tbh. We have a lot of mutual friends and drink in the same bar so I see him and his ns quite often (poor girl) however there has been no hoover attempt.so far and I ignore him when I see him. He has already tried telling everyone that ‘i,m the crazy one’ but my friends have put people straight about this. He’s actually on probation for 12 months which he seems to have forgotten to mention… So my question is.. I know it’s only 3 months but have I offended his ego badly enough that he will not hoover. I have blocked him and his friends on all social media etc But being in his social sphere hasn’t prompted a hoover so far Am I rid of him? Many thanks

          4. No. I recommend you organise an email consultation and I can explain further for you and what you need to do.

  15. Broke up with a narc six months ago, no regrets. He’s tried two hoovers so far. I stonewalled for the first one and blocked during the second.

    We were in a “poly” relationship. It seemed his previous experiences of polyamory centered around him doing what he pleased whilst the girlfriend waited about dutifully. I didn’t fall for that one, so he begrudgingly accepted and gave me hell for it. The other lovers I had at the time actually helped illuminate how ridiculous the narc was by advantage of being decent human beings.

    I broke up with him in person three times (he insisted after each we needed to “talk more”). He was literally snarling by the final one, frothing at the mouth. Didn’t “out” him so to speak, explained that I wanted more then he was willing to give. Outlined examples where he had “disappointed” me or “acted out of line with my personal preferences”. I stayed completely calm whilst he lost his shit, all in public. Treated it like I was firing a petulant employee.

    Suppose, if you’ve humiliated them enough, politely ignored the hoovers and are out of their radar (we do live in the same town but have completely different haunts, friend groups etc), and have blocked them, will they just not bother? Like a “no supply here sonny, let’s not expend the energy” kind of deal?

    1. Yes, that raises the hoover bar and therefore may well mean that the Hoover Execution Criteria are not met, so no hoover is forthcoming.

  16. Hi HG, so I’d like to share my story here and maybe you can give me your opinion. So I was with my ex narc for a year and a half, I didn’t notice the emotional abuse at all, but actually weird things started happening to me. I lost my self-esteem, I started having anxiety and panic attacks (something I’d never experienced before), I was just feeling very insecure, indecisive… basically a different person. All this started to happen about 2 months after moving in together. So it was very difficult, because I was feeling kind of addicted to my ex, every time she’d go out with people I’d feel horrible and I’d want her to come back. Again, something that never happened to me in previous relationships. My anxiety became so so bad, I decided to leave the city for a few weeks and fix it. 2 days later I find out that she’s having an affair with a common friend, of course lying about it. The new person was so not her type, nobody understood what the heck was going on. Uglier, less successful, much older, etc. When I confronted her, she blamed it all on me, blamed me on not trusting her (yes, I caught her cheating), blamed me for all that was wrong in our relationship, for me being selfish, for me treating her poorly, etc. She said she never wanted to see me again, of course she did the smear campaign with all our mutual friends and isolated me from the group. Thank God actually. At that time I didn’t know I was dealing with a narc so, of course, I blamed it all on myself as well, I was writing and begging and calling, no answer. It was truly horrible. When I came back she’d moved out of our flat. Then months later I started reading about narcissism and I slowly began to realize nothing was my fault. My problem is, every time I see her (with her new supply, still this one), I feel horrible, I fall apart (don’t show it though), same thing when I see our mutual friends or when I hear something about her. I truly never ever want to see her again, I blocked her everywhere, I don’t speak with any mutual friends, I don’t go to the places she might be. From your books I assume she was a mid-range elite narcissist. Now it’s 6+ months after the break up, no sign from her. My question is: how probable is a hoover, considering I isolated myself in practically every way possible. The only thing she knows about me is where I live (in our old flat). I truly never want to see her again, but I want to be prepared so I don’t break down. Thank you!!!

    1. Hello Alexa, to answer this properly requires me to have more information about the nature of your no contact and the also the narcissist so that I can provide you with an accurate view. I would recommend you organise an e-mail consultation to that end.

    2. I honestly think you wan’t to know if she will come back to you. You really want to prepare for her to come back to you. If she has not contacted you in 6 months then why are you worried? Do yourself a favor and get some help. Work on getting yourself together and less time putting energy into her. I know it’s hard but in time you will catch up to the realization that she wasn’t worth your time. Doesn’t matter how the other person looks or what they have, the Narc needs fuel and that new source is providing it. PERIOD! You have isolated from everything except your mind which is the place she shouldn’t be. It takes time to heal and everyone is different. Know your worth. Good luck

      1. Had to laugh at HG’s comment because I now know it’s so true. Entanglement with a narc is binding, more so than marriage and definitely till death do us part. I said the exact same thing to myself so many times about both narcs, especially the greater as I was only IPSS, yet they keep coming back. To be fair to the greater, I do contact him a fair amount too because I am still very much into him.

        With ex-husband narc, I get loads of negative ones and even a few small to medium sized positive ones here and there, but today l had a proper positive hoover from him. I never had golden period with him and today is as bronze as it gets. All sweet seduction and even when out sending loving text. He’s even talked about us moving to a new place together. Wonder what his current IPPS thinks about that. Guess she’s not so shiny and new now. It’s been over two years, maybe more. Wasn’t expecting that.

    1. I don’t believe mine will either. I exposed him to many people, told him I know what he is, and he knows I see through his many masks. It’s been 6 months no contact. We can consider ourselves lucky if they fall off the face of the earth never to be heard from again!

        1. HG

          If a Hoover occurs after six months though wouldn’t our emotional thinking be numbed right down by then.
          Wouldn’t it make it much harder for the narc to actually lure you again.
          I do know if I had a Hoover after say 2 years like some say ,I honestly would not even think about it , it would be like meh.
          And yes I did love my ex narc but time does provide us with a shield against them.
          I think the mixture does fade over no contact time ,therefore the narcs ability to draw fuel is much reduced after this time.


          1. If you have had 6 months of SOLID no contact, your emotional thinking will be lowered and therefore you are far more likely to use logic and therefore ignore the hoover. You are of course never immune, but you can increase the extent of your resistance.

  17. HG – After a 25 year marriage, I am not being hoovered, but he is dragging out the divorce. 8 hours in mediation and he refused to sign the agreement. He wants to ‘go to court’. I believe he wants to make me look bad and make himself the victim. There really isn’t anything to fight over, no children and no big expensive things. We live in a state that is ‘no fault’ divorce and joint property. It’s just math at this point.
    Is his refusing to sign the divorce agreement his source of fuel, since he’s not hoovering?
    I believe he is a Lesser with rage tendencies and addiction issues.
    He’s getting older and spiraling out of control.
    Any idea how could I get him to agree to sign the divorce and end this nightmare? He does have a girlfriend but still won’t let me go.

    1. The refusal to sign is being done to punish you, maintain a connection and to exert control.
      Does he have a new IPPS?

    1. Showing you difference is a mild malign hoover because that would be designed to provoke you into being hurt or angry.

      1. Today I have been tricked and had fuel stolen from me. I have been hoovered without realizing it. He gets in contact with me asking if I could help with accommodation for his sister and fam over dec holidays. I said they could use my house since I would be out of town for the whole of December. He knows I usually go away dec. He asked what the cost would be. I say that they would be doing me a favour to look after the house and dog so no cost except for own food and electricity. He says ok can you send pics of your place so I can forward it to my sister. I send pics of each and every room…like a virtual tour. He responds by saying Wow nice place. But no thank you for the offer. I don’t want to give you trouble. I say it wont be trouble. He says it concerns me that you would go through so much trouble for me. But no thanks I think it is better for them to use a hotel. (Why the fck does he ask for accommodation in the first place???) And there he disappears again. I only realized afterwards that he was never serious about the accommodation request and also that he has never been to my new place since I bought it after we broke up, he tricked me into getting to see my new place. What does this hoover mean HG? Purely for fuel? Is this also a mild malign hoover?
        Silly empath I am. Compassion and empathy clouds my judgement

  18. To those of you who were sidechicks, Dirty little secrets and friends with benefits to a married narc or those of who that is married and have had affairs with a narc…kharma surely got you…

    1. Thanks for your input. Karma will get you in the same way for condemning. One sin is not greater than the other. Enjoy!

      1. Yep indeed we all reap what we sow and I am not above that. Hence I dont go after married men. Honestly I just find it disgusting; thats just my opinion, me speaking my mind. I just cannot fathom why people embark on affairs and then expect everything to work out for the best. What about empathy, integrity, morals etc. Is that not what ab empath is about? Affair = trouble (IMO). If you can’t stand the heat…. dont do affairs.

      2. Oh please stop with the righteous bullshit! These guys are master manipulators. ANYONE can fall prey to them. They study you through what seem to be innocuous Imteractions all the while gathering info on how to manipulate you and your core weaknesses. So since it happened to you and using your righteous logic, maybe then you got what you deserved

        1. Just to say here

          I was a dirty little secret however

          These guys are master manipulator is saying you had no control at all ,you were a victim , not true.
          Yes they were manipulators but be honest we had a choice but made the wrong one due to OUR OWN insecurities ,low self worth
          For a while they made us feel good and that is why we choose to be a dirty secret.
          A stronger woman would realise she is worth so much more than this but sometimes we are not strong ,we have issues ,our self esteem may have taken a blow etc.
          These guys know who to pick , hurt women hungry for love.I was that woman.

          We made the choice unless we were abducted and raped.
          We need to own our mistakes Ladies.That gives you power.
          When the married man cliches flowed from his mouth we knew it was bullshit on most levels , be honest ,but we choose to pretend it was true.
          We made a mistake but look inside and the answer to why will be there.


    2. Kensani, you are right. All reap what they sow. And KT, @ 2 months ago a guy from where I went to school wanted to meet. We were raised in a school in a 3rd world country for expatriate kids. Every night I was strapped when 6 years old. I was there til 12. I was 1,000 miles from home, so no parents to protect- plus they put us there. We were separated from siblings. I didn’t want to meet him, but he insisted. He greatly suffered and he told me a lot more abuse/neglect that happened. School has now been shut down. I helped confirm for him a lot and he has worked very hard to heal. I presumed past was past, but realize how all this set me up to tolerate what I shouldn’t. Meeting him was an eye opener. I was in a world of hurt when I met this psychopath, wasn’t planning a relationship- otherwise I would have researched dating today, red flags. I also didn’t guard my heart and believed his false persona. When truth came to surface, I suffered cognitive dissonance. Why I’m on Sir Tudor’s site. I was saved from one of the most terrible persons. Unbelievable this evil person whom I deeply loved. I’ve come to terms with what happened and who I was dealing with. Sir Tudor says we have a need to understand it all, which I did. And while trying to completely forget him, I am curious as to what ends up happening to him and those with him. And KT, can you share which country/state you live? Just curious.

    3. I was a side chick. Had no idea he was married! Had no idea he had 3 other GFs too! He hides his wife away. His wife condones everything he does. I met her and she didn’t even tell me she was his wife!! I was groomed by a Narcopath. Do you have any idea how psychologically traumatic that is?? I was violated, abused and exploited for his sadistic pleasure. Then you go and victim blame me?!
      Blame your disgusting husband for being a cheater and blame yourself for being a judgemental b**ch

      1. I agree completely! I was also a side chick. Told me he was divorced. It was long distance, so I saw him occasionally. He didn’t wear a wedding ring. He told me horrible things about his wife. Then things blew up, she found out about me, then suddenly they weren’t divorced and they were making things work. I was just a pawn in his game. I blame him, but the wives love to blame us bc otherwise they are just fools for staying. We are just as much a victim of the abuse as they are, but they are groomed to blame others too bc it can never be the narcs fault. They are nothing more than flying monkeys.

      2. Whitewater,

        “Blame your disgusting husband for being a cheater and blame yourself for being a judgemental b**ch”

        You got about 2/3 right.

        Because he lied to me (the wife) about you (the sidechick), and I believed him, I was judgemental. Because he lied to you, you judge me.

        I lived with him and thought I knew him, and I believed him, so I am the bigger fool in the set-up. LOL I can’t blame you for falling for those words.

        Either way, he played on the same traits in both of us

        .And I do blame the disgusting, lying, cheating, man who I no longer want to claim as a husband.

        I’ll bet you don’t want him either.

        Obviously, not the same narc, but you get it, right?

        To all the other wives: I get it, I was mad, too. The other woman almost never starts with an intention to hurt you. She cares about people, that includes the narc when they are seducing her. He will always shift blame to the other party,


    4. Ummm excuse me I did not know the narc was even married until I did a back ground check. I would not knowingly mess with a married man.

  19. Something is off key about missy m story. It’s almost as nauseous as her narc and beyond conceited.

  20. At times I feel very resolved and assured that I’ve been dealing with a malignant narcissist, and at others, I wonder. It’s such a mindf*ck. He’s going through an ugly divorce, and blames strange behaviours on the stress of that. Love-bombed the hell out of me for the first few weeks. Little red flags here and there. Called him out on some texts (which he denied were what I thought they were. Strongly suspect he has another supply source) and I’ve been in an emotional tailspin ever since. Says he can’t deal with drama, negativity, or being questioned. He perceived every “what have you been doing” as questioning. Disappears for a bit and then comes back wanting to see me. I’ve gone NC recently after knowing he blatantly lied to me. Not my first go-round with a narc, unfortunately. But I still question and second-guess my intuition and wonder if the issues are truly just situational. Help.

    1. Oh. And if I’ve heard, “Im crazy about you but I’m not going to hurt you with my stuff” once, I’ve heard it a thousand times. What gives???

      1. Sir Tudor has answered these in articles. One had to do w/ what they really meant when they said things. What yours said is classic. And his saying he can’t deal w being questioned gets him off hook. He wants you to accept he can do whatever he wants w no accountability. His disappearing – he’s with someone else. Get out! Yes, it hurts but will hurt more if you stay.

  21. Fuel observation: Narcs don’t necessarily go for people dependent on fuel, but also dependent on their self esteem level. If Fuel was the driving force, why would Missy M’s narc go for desperate, single, unattractive moms when Missy M is GORGEOUS, successful, and has many attracted to her? He was unattractive, no car, no nothing. She provided everything for him and is a stunning woman as well. If Fuel was the answer, he’d be with her and not others. In my case, the man I was so in love with likes young girls (as in 13-16 year olds). In Sex and the Narcissist, you say sex means nothing, just fuel, but if that was the case, what fuel does he get from a 13 year old as compared to a 30-50 year old who has more materially and is more experienced and fun? I think self-esteem is part of this. Both these men feel more comfortable and at home with “losers” or whom they can prey on more easy. My guy was very much into sex. I think he went for young girls because of the young, strong, tinier bodies. I think he was way more sexually attracted to them. There apparently was a lot of porn on his computer as well, and police were after it.
    So they do need fuel, but they also bypass some great fuel due to their self esteem and sexual interests. If fuel was the answer, they wouldn’t give up the great fuel they are getting and ultimately need. If they have nothing, negative fuel provides nothing. So that they are driven only by fuel isn’t making sense in some of these scenarios.

    1. It is about fuel. He gets fuel from losers more easily…more than he would get from a successful, independent woman who is more difficult to control. My ex- narc is the same. The losers think he is the best thing since sliced bread. He is concerned that independent, successful, high achieving, go-getter type of woman will realise that she is worth more and escape him. Ever since we started dating he would make comments about how i would leave him because other guys would go after me because of my job and money. When I worked hard he would accuse me of being greedy for money. And said things like women with money think they can control men

      1. Glad you figured yours out and are out of it. What’s weird is one of his lovers is out $300,000 coz of him. She and her husband were successful. She was an affair, she was going to leave her husband for him and he went silent on her. She was trying to go after him legally, but I don’t think that’s possible.. She was out the $, and got divorced for nothing. He told his then wife he was there for business. His wife found out from the woman’s husband that no, he wasn’t working for him, he was having an affair w/ his wife. Not the 1st husband she found this out from. Seems he’s met either very nice women, or women w/ $. Not sure if he’s able to continue w/ his tricks now. The bit I know, he did target successful women but his girlfriends were young and not well off. So maybe his girlfriends were the level he was and he conned women w/ $ to support his lifestyle. If he can lure from the internet, he will be getting his fuel. But he’s not to have any of this access on the internet. Whether that is monitored or not, or if his restrictions are enforced, I don’t know. But I do believe they do keep tabs on his GPS as they said they were + they did arrest him when he didn’t register. If I wrote a book, I’d call it “The Demise of a Psychopath”. Not sure how Sir Tudor would categorize the differences b/w a psychopath and a narc, but I think he is a psychopath and so is different in various aspects. One being, I don’t think psychopaths hoover. I’ve read other posts from psychopaths, and when they’re done, they’re done.

  22. So HG if you were in a long distance relationship with a narcissist the chances of you getting hoovered are smaller because he would prefer to hoover the ones closer to him?

    1. Distance may not be a significant factor because technology overcomes that. Of greater relevance would be how easy is it to perform the hoover. If the closer victim can be found in person very easily and approached very easily that would mean a hoover (all else being equal) would be more likely to happen with the closer victim. However, if the narcissist has no way of contacting the victim who is nearer (blocked, victim has moved address even though is heard of being in same city for example) but the long distance victim can be readily contacted by say telephone or Skype, the long distance one is more likely to be hovered. You of course have to factor in the various other elements from the Hoover Execution Criteria.

  23. That’s why I miss him. He was the one chance I took (not intending to). He was an amazing writer and lover and could overwhelm with “love” – or what seemed it. Without going into details, I’m staying in my marriage, not involved with anyone else. So no hot studs. No dating for me. Sir Tudor knows most of my situation. This is the right thing, it will work out and it was a needed lesson learned. Had it “worked” out with him, my life would have been ruined. Because I hadn’t planned/intended this, I didn’t guard my heart or do research. If I’d been looking to date, I would have quickly come across articles about con artists and love frauds. That one chance was the worst of the worst. Like winning a bad lottery. On a positive note, had he been normal, I could have wrecked a marriage and family that I need to stay in. May you find a great guy, Missy, but don’t sell yourself short. A great guy won’t want a lady that’s with many men. Save yourself for the right one. They are out there. I like you a lot.

    1. Hey Love, we both did not know what we were in for, we are hopeless romantics and that is why they picked us. I will never change that about me, I love being the way I am. You should not either! We got conned! It hurts but think about what a tormented mind and life they have! We may be hurt but we will move on, heal and find wonderful men that don’t use us and love us truly. At least yours was poetic and had some decent qualities, mine was a bum! Under average looking, no job, car, money…. I took care of him! He was good in the sack, that is probably what I miss.
      I was reading a book from Tudor and it kind of creeped me out, but mind boggling, I read it in an hour! It really helps to understand what you were dealing with to heal. I was trying to distinguish what kind of narc he is and he is not an elite, more of a lesser- mid range possible victim narc combination. I was reading about hoovering and he might just try! He knows I am a pretty angry, tough lady and I own weapons and I might shoot him if he comes near me. We have no mutual friends and no ties together. I do know he always reaches out to ex- lovers (he cheated on me with them)
      If anyone is reading, how do I get the message through his sick head that I am done with him forever? I have absolutely no contact with him and never will and he has no way of contacting me except where I live and the property management is to notify the police if they see him. Only contact I have with him is that I have flashbacks of his abuse sometimes and I know that is a form of contact. I am working on this and hopefully it will resolve in time.
      He discarded me almost 3 months ago and I usually contact him after a few months but this time I am finally done! I have this weird feeling he is just waiting for me to contact him so he can ignore me and get his fuel, which will never happen! I am really not expecting a hoover, because in time I am was the one who came crawling back. But I promise you all I NEVER will. Thank God I learned this time!!

      Any thoughts? Suggestions?
      Thanks ; )

      1. You are getting it through his head as you are doing something different by not coming back. And you’ve done all you could for him not getting near you. If he does, restraining order.

      1. Thx for asking KT. Yes, I tested 3x. I’m fine. His 2nd wife did get HIV so is on meds for life. She said to keep checking. My last test was @ a year ago, but as I had 3 tests over time, I’m sure I contracted nothing. I pray he’s not able to damage others, especially young girls. By having him caught and now registered as a sex offender (though his info not publicly shown) and his 3rd wife now knowing (I think she’s out of his life – he can’t leave US anyways and she doesn’t live in US and I imagine her family is protecting her), his freedom/opportunities are limited. I believe he is now a transient. He was again in jail for a few weeks as he didn’t register and is listed as a transient.

  24. Well, my fellow friends, my ex monster takes the cake! I am very attractive and successful and I fell for an unattractive, unsuccessful fake person. I believe he was jealous of me that is why he treated me so bad but I stayed because I liked the excitement. When he would pull his disappearing acts, I would too. I cheated on him constantly and had side boyfriends to dignify my insecurities of our “relationship” as the years rolled on and getting discarded over and over and ME always the one to call him and beg for him back, I finally gave up! He never hoovered or asked me back, he would pull a silent treatment till I gave in. All this time I had no idea he had “others” He tends to like the insecure, unattractive, desperate single mothers that are down on their luck. Poor ladies. (I still don’t know how he landed me) Apologies if I am sounded conceited but the fact that I lowered myself blows me away! He pulled a discard on me last year and I contacted him 4 months later and we got back together (I guess) 1 week later he pulls the silent treatment again. This time I just laughed and went on with my life after blocking him. 2 months later he writes me from JAIL confessing his love! I take him back! YES! Don’t slap me!! Anyway I get him out of jail because I am a wonderful person and like most of us we believe he/she is changed, LOL.. Long story short I support him with EVERYTHING for 7 months and the DAY he gets off probation he leaves me in the middle of the night while I was sleeping with a “goodbye” note playing the victim!!! OUCH! I called him crying and no response of course. I knew I had been had! Try that one on for a DISCARD! (of course I have had no contact, he is blocked and I just finished reading “ NO Contact, by HG Tudor) I DARE him to try and “hoover” me. He won’t see his next birthday!! I want NOTHING to do with him! It has been almost 3 months since this has happened and I hope the monster is happy with his “supplies” because he will NEVER get a taste my gorgeous, juicy, awesome supply ever again! Thank you for reading ; ) Oh and by the way fellow reader, it gets SO much better with no contact, not just blocking them but not EVER thinking of them. They NEVER existed!

    1. Hi Missy, good for you for finally ending it. I’ve struggled with forgetting mine and am reading Exorcism the 3rd time. How do you not think of him? I was crazy in love with mine. Mine was affair, but 1 week out of jail (meth, sex with 13 year old, he’s 54), he married his 3rd wife. He’s also had AIDS almost 20 years. Unbelievable what he really is. This is just tip of iceberg, there’s much more I found out. It’s been 2 years and I don’t think he’ll hoover, as I’m obviously not what he wanted, and he was forever dumping me. They find nice people who’ll go all out for them, and then treat them like trash. It will catch up to them.

      1. Hi ! When I do think of my ex monster I think ” I WON THE BATTLE” He lost! He is out there OBSESSED with getting supply from ugly, ,desperate skanks on dating websites and will NEVER have a happy, healthy relationship like can and will. Remember these people are constantly obsessed with control and getting fuel! I would hate to live like that! I enjoy being happy, free and in love. Yes, I am a kind hearted, loving person who got conned. I had to get over the fact that he NEVER cared and when he discarded me I was hurt for awhile but I was like …..OMG this dork is a LOSER! I am NOT! Have fun chasing sex, I don’t have to, it comes to me!! Mine won’t dare to hoover either…..he knows I am on to him and he knows better! Yes, I am conceited but you have to be when this kind dumps you, they WANT you to feel all sad and depressed and just wait for their return! NOT! Go out, get a hot young stud, or 2! do you girl! THEY NEVER EXISTED!! Put out that energy and they will stay gone! xoxo

      2. So him having AIDS is not enough to gross you out and scare you? Besides the other offenses? With all due respect I think you need urgent therapy

    2. Wow…. I am only 3 weeks post escape….I have deleted and blocked him off social media, however I haven’t blocked his phone number. I’m not quite sure why either. I have responded in the past, however over the past few days I have NOT responded to any of his texts…I met a girlfriend last night for a drink, and I got a text for him, he knew where I was. I freaked out…I hadn’t told anyone where I was…I still didn’t respond..then I got an email. didn’t respond..then 2 hours later I got another text, this one had a picture of me sitting at the table where I was…someone was there that had recognized me and took a picture and sent it to him…he sent it to me in a text and still was questioning why I am not responding…
      It’s never been like me to not respond..I always have, but for 48 hours, I have not.. It was very creepy to me… I desperately need to block his phone number because I NEED to move forward…nothing was real at all….. why is it so difficult to do the final disconnect of BLOCKING his number??

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